ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, I think most Manitobans were shocked to read today that 2,000 litres of effluents were deposited in our river system from the federal virology lab. This lab, of course, will be dealing with Ebola viruses and other very dangerous materials and genetic issues of disease.

When we raised the questions of sewers and sewage system and disposal in 1994, the government stated that, clearly, the conditions of the licence will mean that there are no discharges that should be of any concern, and certainly this is meant to be a contained facility.

I would like to ask the Premier: with the 2,000 litres of effluents discharged, are the conditions of the licence being breached with this, or has the licence been changed and weakened by the provincial government?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, I appreciate the question. It is a very serious matter, and I thank the member for raising it. I believe, genuinely concerned as we are, that in this instance there was a breach of the protocol that is in place that we are insisting be rectified before any of the high-level lab work begins. It has not begun yet, and of course we want to ensure that in this case there was not a health hazard. We want to ensure that no such occurrence will happen again after higher level work does begin. Higher level work will not begin until this procedure is rectified.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, in Hansard in 1994 the government stated that this would be a contained facility, and there would not be the concerns that we had raised about materials being discharged to the river. I would like to ask the minister: is discharging 2,000 litres of effluents from the virology lab consistent with the licence, or is it inconsistent with the licence issued by the province? We want to know whether the federal virology lab is breaking the licence or whether the licence conditions have been weakened by the provincial government.

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Mrs. McIntosh: Madam Speaker, as I indicated in my first response, before work begins on the higher level lab work, this kind of protocol has to be rectified. The member is quite correct in that this is not part of the original conditions. We do not want that effluent–in this case it was not health-hazard water; it was just water, but we absolutely insist that there be a change in that particular protocol. They are all under containment, but we want to ensure that no accidental turning of any tap will release any kind of water whether it, in this case, was not a health hazard. Certainly, we will not allow higher level lab work to begin until we are satisfied that that condition of the licence is respected.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, again, can the minister then table the licence in this Chamber and indicate to us that it is contrary not to the protocol but to the licence issued by the province for effluents to be discharged through the sewer system into the treatment plants into the rivers? Is that against the licence, or is that consistent with the licence?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, as I indicated in both my previous answers, that is contrary to the licence. What I have indicated is that the water that will be going through the waste treatment ultimately, for the higher level lab work is not yet containing any results of the higher level lab work. What I am saying to the member is that before that higher level lab work begins, we will be receiving assurance from the federal government that no such water will be going into the rivers, which is the concern he justifiably brings forward and with which we concur.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): With a new question, I just want to make sure that the public understands and we understand the issue. The minister mentioned before certain materials can be dealt with, and she also mentioned a higher level set of materials. Is the minister now saying to us that the condition that no liquids, fluids of any level, one, two, three or four, will be discharged through the sewer system to the river system here in Manitoba? Is that what she is saying is the condition of the licence, or is there some kind of condition short of Ebola that the government is saying would be accepted by a licence for purposes of discharge?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, the member had asked earlier, and I would be pleased to provide details of the licence to him as Leader of the Opposition, and those details will answer those questions.

What I wish to assure the House and the Leader of the Opposition is that the water that did go into the wastewater treatment was ordinary water. It did not have viral contaminants. The lab is not yet working with those higher level viruses, and the protocols that are in place are now being looked at and investigated by both officials in my department and federal officials to ensure that before any contaminants come in there will be no danger of accidental release into the water system. That is a condition of the licence that we demand be honoured.

So I will provide the details of the licensing for him, and if he has any further questions from that, I would be pleased to answer them as well.

Mr. Doer: I thank the minister, and I look forward to looking at the licence. The minister is saying that no alleged contaminants will go into the sewer and river supply, but water from the virology lab will be going through the regular treatment plant. Is that correct, in terms of the licence?

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Mrs. McIntosh: Madam Speaker, when I bring forward the conditions of the licence, I will be able to answer that more clearly. I will take that question as notice, because there are all kinds of ways in which water enters the system that are not contaminated water supply. I will check the detail of that for him.

I again wish to indicate that the break in procedure that occurred in this instance was a good alert to all of us who are looking at the way in which the protocols begin taking place in the lab. I can assure the House, Madam Speaker, that no viral contaminants will be entering the water system and that we are insisting that the federal government show us the protocols that are being put in place to rectify the situations so that no further incident of this sort can occur.

Mr. Doer: Well, I think a lot of people would be scared when they read this story today and very concerned about it. I have talked to a number of Manitobans that are, and I share their concern. I mean, it is just something that we thought that the facility was contained, and now we are learning that it may not be fully contained, notwithstanding the disagreement about what materials went in through the sewer into the treatment plant and into the river.

The federal government, in 1995, promised that any accidental release or spill, the primary responsibility will be with the lab, but they also will be responsible to liaise with the provincial officials as necessary. When was this government notified? Was there proper liaison between the government, the federal government and this government, and is there proper notification of the public, because many of us read it in the newspaper this morning?

Mrs. McIntosh: Madam Speaker, again, I thank the Leader of the Opposition for his concern and for his very genuine, I believe, concern on this issue. The federal government connected with the lab notified the provincial government that there had been some water going out of the lab the day after. Technically, they are supposed to let us know within 12 hours. We believe that it was in excess of 12 hours, and that is another point of contention that we are currently discussing with the federal government.

Immediately, then, provincial officials contacted the health authorities. It was not a private or a secret communication at all. They notified Dr. Margaret Fast of the City of Winnipeg and Dr. Popplow here in the provincial government to ascertain any degree of health hazard, and if there was a health hazard, what kind of notification should be provided to the public.

Dr. Margaret Fast is the lead health official who determined that there was not a health hazard, and so therefore then department officials began turning their attention to corrective procedures in terms of protocol. Madam Speaker, I will provide more details because I know my time is up.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health on a different matter, and that is we were given assurances some years ago that the line-ups in the hospitals would be dealt with. The Premier promised that there would be a massive decrease by the middle of this year, which has not happened. Two weeks ago in this Chamber I talked about my visit after midnight to the emergency rooms and over 40 people in the Health Sciences Centre.

Madam Speaker, we are contacted by a Jenny Bellino, who is known to some members opposite and who has had 13 surgeries. The food was so bad at Victoria Hospital that her family brought in food for her. She is sitting at home presently, after being discharged, forced to leave the hospital, may have to go back to the St. Boniface emergency because of her condition.

My question is: when will the minister stop making excuses and do something about the situation in the hospitals, and that is to open beds and to bring nurses into the hospital system to deal with the shortages, not the excuses that we have heard for six or seven years?

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

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Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, it is not a matter of making excuses at all, it is a matter of providing the member for Kildonan with the situation as it exists this year. As has always been the case and he knows full well, and we certainly have evidence of it right across Canada, all provinces and Manitoba for many decades have had issues like summer slowdowns in terms of the procedures, elective surgery and so on. When it comes to emergency requirements and urgent requirements, these are dealt with in a very short period of time. But, again, it is nothing new to be in a summer schedule situation affecting the timing of various procedures and services. So he knows that full well.

He knows we are taking a number of steps to address issues like recruiting and retaining our nurses, setting up a $7-million fund; putting $32.5 million into our budget that he supported, along with his Leader, I am sure for that very reason; that this budget has $32.5 million to recruit 650 more nurses; putting in place 850 new personal care home beds to take the pressure off our hospital facilities. If you go back a year ago, we had over 200 panelled patients in our hospitals. Today that is down to 50. That is just a sample of a number of the steps that are being taken to address that very important issue.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, if the government has done so much–two years ago it was the flu, then it was the nursing; it is now the middle of summer where we are supposed to have no line-ups, no people in the hallways–why do we have a chronic problem in our hospital system with people in the hallways and unable to access our health care system? Is it not a result of seven years of miserable planning by this government and an inability to effect change, and their cuts?

Mr. Stefanson: No, Madam Speaker, and there is not a major chronic problem in terms of our hallways. We go day in and day out. I can give the member the last few days. You can go to a number of facilities, Concordia, you can go to HSC, St. Boniface; you will not find any of that. There still are some cases, and we have said that is unacceptable.

That is why we are doing a number of things. That is why we are recruiting more nurses in the province of Manitoba. That is why we have $32.5 million in this budget to recruit more nurses. That is why we are building 850 net new personal care home beds right throughout Manitoba. That is why we have a bed co-ordination strategy making the best use of our beds right across our health care system. Those are just some of the steps that we are taking to address that issue.

I am assuming that when that member stood up and voted for our budget, he did so because this budget includes $194 million to address those very important issues. I know some of his colleagues had long faces when they had to stand and support that budget. I think that member was smiling because he knows that we are supporting health care with $2.1 billion, $194 million more than a year ago, to address all of these very important issues.

Mr. Chomiak: My question to the minister, who well knows that we supported that budget because that is the first time in six or seven years they have done anything to try to improve the health care system–

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

An Honourable Member: For their electoral purposes.

Mr. Chomiak: For their electoral purposes.

My question to the Minister of Health is: can the minister explain, as Jenny Bellino was told when she was forced to leave Victoria Hospital, Madam Speaker, whether or not beds are being designated for the Pan Am Games? If that is the case, and of course you need to designate beds, why is it that we allow summer shutdowns in the face of all of these people coming to the city of Winnipeg when we need the additional beds that are going to be–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, an individual like the one that the member is referring to, and I am certainly prepared to look into her situation, will not be impacted in any way by the Pan Am Games. I have had questions about that in this House before. There is no reserving of beds at the expense of the citizens of Manitoba for the Pan Am Games.

Some of the beds affected by the summer slowdown, if need be, can be put in place to deal with any urgent requirements under the Pan Am Games. That is how the process is designed to work. There is no impact on Manitoba residents as a result of the Pan Am Games or any beds being held and putting a Manitoban in a situation where they cannot access a bed because of the Pan Am Games. Those are the facts.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Unfortunately, in this province issues related to liquor and politics seem to be intertwined, one Cubby Barrett getting a licence when the previous owners of the Cross Lake Inn could not get it; the fiasco under this minister, the private wine stores with that objective accountant Gordon McFarlane, her official agent and the treasurer of the Conservative Party, giving assessment.

We learned in committee this morning that this minister made a decision to remove the 300-seat limit on beverage rooms without meeting with the hotel association before that decision was made, a decision that just happens to benefit, in fact, two hotels owned by one company with close ties to the Conservative Party, in fact, whose owner sits on the Keystone Club which gives a direct contact with the First Minister.

I am wondering if the First Minister can explain to the people of Manitoba when we are going to stop seeing the mixture of politics and liquor in this province and how he can justify this situation where even the hotel association was not consulted about this move.

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Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I note that the individual who is being referenced by the member for Thompson also made contributions to the New Democratic Party in 1998.

Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, since the Premier seems to know quite a bit about this, perhaps he has not read the owner gave $375 to the New Democratic Party as an individual. His company gave $5,387.50 to the Conservative Party. Can the minister also confirm that Mr. Ledohowski, the individual in question, has confirmed on the public record he is a member of this Keystone Club and obviously has direct connections to this government to be able to benefit two of the hotels he owns by a policy change? They would not even consult with the hotel association.

Mr. Filmon: Of course, Madam Speaker, Brian O'Leary gave $1,500 to the NDP party, which means that he has bought out of any need to obey the ethics of the NDP party, if they have any ethics. Brian O'Leary gets to buy his way out for $1,500, I assume.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, I would be more than glad to table a copy of the Conservative contribution list, which I think lists every principal in that vote-splitting scandal. Pretty well, you know, half the people that get benefits from this government are on this list.

I would like to ask a final question to the Premier, whether he can confirm whether either this government, since the minister did not know about this, or the Conservative Party is currently conducting polling into the privatization of liquor in this province and whether this is in fact the real agenda of the Conservative Party, the privatization of liquor in the same way that they privatized MTS after the election in 1995.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister charged with the administration of The Liquor Control Act): Madam Speaker, as I said today in my remarks introducing the Manitoba Liquor Commission, the Manitoba Liquor Commission currently has a very good balance between private and our own government-operated stores, and we see no need to change that balance.

We have had difficulty in understanding where the NDP have been coming from in their series of questioning. The new NDP, they reinvent themselves every time we look at them. We have them objecting to expansion.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

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Mr. Ashton: Beauchesne's Citation 417 is very clear that answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate.

Madam Speaker, I asked about polling that is currently being done in Manitoba. We have been receiving calls from Manitobans about it. I asked the Premier whether indeed, through his position in this government or he as the Leader of the Conservative Party, whatever, whether they are involved with polling. I would appreciate it if you would have the First Minister answer that question. Are they polling about privatization? Is that their real agenda?

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): I think if you examine the record you will find out that in quoting the same citation from Beauchesne, in stating questions members opposite are often very verbose, very argumentative, very provocative, and that, of course, results in a similar reply. So I would ask you to draw that to the attention of all honourable members.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister responsible for the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission, on the same point of order.

Mrs. Vodrey: Just in answering the question and clarifying, speaking to that point of order, it has often been very difficult to find out where the NDP are actually coming from in terms of their questions because they appear to stand for one thing on one day and stand for another thing on another day. So, Madam Speaker, in the answering of my question, it was simply to try and clarify who in fact are the new NDP.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Leader of the official opposition, on the same point of order.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, it is an important public issue that we know what the true agenda of the Conservative Party is. We want to know whether they are going to say one thing before an election again and have the sequel plan to break their promise like they did on the telephone system.

Somebody is polling. We want to know who is paying for it. Why is the government trying to cover up again their true intentions for the public assets here in Manitoba?

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind all honourable members when speaking to a point of order to not utilize the time as debate on the issue but to relate specifically to the rule that has been violated.

On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), I would remind the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Vodrey) to respond to the question asked and not provoke debate.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, earlier today I trust that I was hand-delivered a letter from the Seven Oaks School Division to myself, a letter that was submitted for the Winnipeg Free Press and the Winnipeg Sun editorial board.

My question is for the Minister of Education and to ask for him to comment. In the letter it states, and I quote: The government's own officials twice reported that no harm was done and that the matter was concluded. Each of the three investigations which have been done reached the same conclusions. There was no breach in security; there was a violation of protocol.

Does the Minister of Education agree with that comment from the Seven Oaks School Division?

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Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Categorically not, Madam Speaker. The Deputy Minister of Education has advised me that his officials take strong exception to that position taken by representatives of the Seven Oaks School Division. More troubling to me or equally troubling to me is the assertion in the letter–which I assume is proposed to be printed because I have not seen it yet. The letter is signed by the chair of the board, but it makes the point that the issue is more about partisan politics than it is about education, which we know there is plenty of partisan politics involved with this issue. But the fact that the school division would take the position that this is not about education is extremely troubling to me. It goes back to what I said about the initial report put out by Mr. Wiens, the superintendent of the division, the one that I tabled here in the House which makes the same point that no harm was done, that there are plenty of analogies about that to be discussed at further length later.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I ask for the Minister of Education to comment on the statement from the letter, and again I quote: The suggestion by Mr. McCrae, Mr. Lamoureux and Mr. Filmon that this matter still requires further investigation by an independent inquiry indicates that this issue has nothing to do with education and everything to do with party politics and the upcoming provincial election.

Does the Minister of Education recognize now the need for the independent investigation?

Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I do not hear much from the New Democrats on this matter except from their seats. They too have been asking for an independent investigation, and that would be about the first time they seem to have taken issue with Mr. Wiens or Mr. O'Leary on this matter.

As I said to the honourable member for Inkster earlier on in this discussion, this is a very serious matter. The honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. L. Evans), speaking for the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer), says that this is no more than making a mountain out of a molehill, and honourable members in the New Democratic Party agree with that statement. The honourable member for Brandon East has also said that this is much ado about nothing, speaking for the New Democratic caucus in this House, which speaks volumes about the commitment of honourable members of the New Democratic Party to integrity in our education system for our children.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I ask for the Minister of Education to recognize that the Seven Oaks School Division does not have any credibility in bringing this issue to an end.

My question to the Minister of Education on this issue: is the Minister of Education going to do what is necessary in order to protect the integrity of our standards exams and call for an independent investigation on this matter today?

Mr. McCrae: Yes, I share with the honourable member for Inkster concern about the credibility of the report that I tabled in this House. I share his concern about the position taken or the lack of a position taken, as usual, by the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) in this matter. I am determined to protect the integrity of the standards testing procedures in our province.

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, Manitoba's young people and skilled immigrants have been betrayed by this government. According to StatsCan, Manitoba has the fewest college graduates per capita of this decade. This is after the Roblin commission called on the government to get serious about college enrollments and dramatically increase college spaces. I agree with the headline in one of our local papers that calls this a national disgrace.

I would like to ask the Minister of Education if it makes any sense at all for people like Harbir Dhaliwal, who is a foreign-trained computer programmer, age 25, to be on a waiting list for three years to get into computer programming at Red River Community College, while Manitoba employers continue to experience shortages of computer programmers and this individual is driving cab. What is your answer to that?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Well, Madam Speaker, it turns out the good people over at the Freedom of Information office are not the only ones that use those little white-out bottles. It turns out the caucus research people for the New Democratic Party, in being very selective with Statistics Canada documents, have omitted putting certain information in the hands of a certain reporter for a newspaper here which covered this matter.

When it comes to the issue of apprentices, for example, they very conveniently left out the fact that Manitoba is about fourth or fifth in the country ranking-wise instead of last, as portrayed by the graph that they presented which was missing the other provinces, Madam Speaker. The NDP applied 1998 population projections to 1995-96 enrollment statistics for the purpose of making their case.

So, you know, I guess the honourable member for St. James seems to be spending too much time taking lessons from the honourable member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale).

Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, if the minister would like a briefing on how to calculate percentages, I am sure that the Free Press or our caucus would be willing to brief the minister.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for St. James was recognized for a supplementary question which requires no preamble. Would the honourable member please pose her question now.

Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, can this minister explain why his government, in response to the Mauro report and then the Roblin commission, not only cut spaces but did nothing for year after year after year, leaving little hope for Manitobans, for young Manitobans who eventually left Manitoba?

Mr. McCrae: The honourable member has to square her comments today with the comments made by Nuala Beck, who tells us that 39 percent of Manitoba's population are employed in high-skilled jobs. So there is obviously more homework to be done, not only by the honourable member but also by myself, because we recognize the challenges that a buoyant economic situation in Manitoba presents, more buoyant in Manitoba, by the way, than most other places in this country, thanks to the leadership of the present administration in partnership with those in our economy who create the wealth and create the jobs.

Madam Speaker, $4 million in the colleges growth fund this year will create 1,000 new seats in our college system, which will have quite an effect on the statistics that the honourable member has to doctor before she brings them to this House.

Ms. Mihychuk: I would like the minister to respond to the question that I asked in my first question, and that is: what answer does the minister have to this individual who is a foreign-trained computer programmer, highly skilled, who has been waiting for three years and all of those Manitoba companies that are looking for an individual with exactly those skills? What is the government's answer to this individual?

Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I do not know all of the details respecting the individual referred to by the honourable member. I would be very happy if she would share with me more information about that particular individual because it is that very area where employers in Manitoba are crying out for skilled people. That is why, under the colleges growth fund, there will be 35 additional seats created at the Red River College for computer accounting technicians, 55 seats created for computer analyst programmer positions. That is the direction we are going.

If an individual is having difficulty, an individual with the kind of training required by employers in our economy in Manitoba today, many of whom are needed in the workplace, I will do whatever I can to assist that particular individual. But certainly there are jobs available in this area, so many that we have to apply some of those $4 million in the colleges growth fund for the very area referred to by the honourable member, for the person she has been speaking to who is having difficulty finding employment. So if the honourable member wants to share more information with me, I will use whatever efforts I can to assist.

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Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): I have some questions for the Premier. In 1967 there were some aboriginal runners, Charles Bittern, Dave Courchene Jr., Patrick Bruyere, William Chippaway, Fred Harper, William Merasty, Charles Nelson, Russell Abraham, John Nazzie and Milton Mallett, who took the Pan Am torch from St. Paul, Minnesota, to the Winnipeg Stadium, a run of some 800 kilometres in just six days, and the Premier knows that these runners were not recognized at that time, nor have they been to this day.

I would like to ask the Premier to consider awarding these runners the Order of the Buffalo or some other award to recognize their achievement for the Pan Am Games.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I thank the honourable member for his advice, and I will certainly take that matter under advisement.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I have asked a number of questions of the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism in regard to the Manitoba Capital Fund concerning the amount of losses suffered by Manitobans through Manitoba's investment as one of the five partners in the fund. I wonder if the minister would be able to confirm today what the amount of the losses in regard to Rescom and Shamray, which total $4.5 million for the fund, what proportion of that $4.5 million does Manitoba as one of the five contributors bear.

Hon. Mervin Tweed (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, as I explained to the honourable member in Estimates and in other questions in this House, risk capital is exactly that. It is what Manitobans have said in the survey or the review that was done in 1994 that, in order to grow the jobs and the economy in a fast rate that we expected, that was the type of investment that was required. Companies that partook or were involved in the investment side of it, many of them have been successful. Many of them have created many high-paying jobs in the province of Manitoba.

When you look at the fund, it is a balanced fund. The investment at the start of the day and at the end of the day fluctuates in great amounts. Somebody told me that in 1990 the Dell investment in the United States, a $2,500 investment today was worth $1 million, so it just shows that the risk capital that we need in Manitoba to make it grow is there for the people that need it.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, I would like to table a memo from the Workers Compensation Board which points out that the people of Manitoba, through their one-fifth contribution, pay the entire losses, all $4.5 million of the loss, because of a secret share class, Class C, which the people of Manitoba bought for their $5 million–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Crescentwood was recognized for a supplementary question to which no preamble is required. Would the honourable member please pose his question.

Mr. Sale: I want to ask the minister why he did not tell people, the people of Manitoba, and tell this party in Estimates and tell this House that Manitobans were responsible for the entire $4.5-million loss on Rescom and Shamray because of a class of shares called, apparently, Class C of shares, that Manitoba said they would take the first $5 million of loss. What kind of a venture fund had no risk for the CIBC, no risk for the private sector? All the risk is on the people of Manitoba. What kind of a venture fund is that?

Mr. Tweed: Madam Speaker, while not accepting any of the preamble or the information that the honourable member often brings forward to this House which is incorrect, I am pleased to report that venture capital-backed companies increase jobs by 23 percent, increase sales by 31 percent, increase exports by 36 percent and taxes paid to the province by 39 percent.

I am pleased to inform the member that Vision's $3-million investment in Monarch Industries is currently rated at $13 million, which he so conveniently neglects. When we look at the record of the previous administration on the loans that they put out–

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Sale: Beauchesne 417 directs that questions should be answered briefly and to the point and should answer the question that was asked.

Madam Speaker, I asked whether the minister would confirm that Manitobans lost the entire $4.5 million because of a separate class of shares which Manitobans guaranteed when they set up this so-called venture fund, while the Bank of Commerce, which is a partner, has no losses at all. I simply asked him to confirm that, not to go on a ramble about some other funds.

Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I can appreciate the sensitivity of members opposite to have the minister put his answer into the context of this fund over the years because it is very clear that the record of the member for Crescentwood's party when in government was absolutely dismal in creating any jobs with the use of that venture fund.

The minister has a right in his answer to place his answer in context of the fund and its success or failure over the years.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Crescentwood, indeed I will take the matter under advisement to consult the Hansard record and report back to the Chamber.

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, though this government poses as being supportive of women and families, many of their policies are family bashing and women bashing. Consider for example teachers on maternity leave, and the majority are women, are losing pensionable service time because this government is the only one in Canada to refuse matching contributions.

I would like to ask the Minister of Education why his government refuses to match maternity leave pension contributions and so penalizes the pensions for teachers, again mostly women who are at home birthing children and caring for their children. Are you for families or are you against them?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, since my appointment as Minister of Education and Training, I have had the pleasure of visiting numerous Manitoba schools and seeing those teachers referred to by the honourable member at work with the children of Manitoba, doing an excellent job and making a wonderful impression on those young people so that they can grow up and become productive and happy citizens.

The issue raised by the honourable member is one that has been discussed with me, and we continue to consider the matter.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.