Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us today Ms. Barbara Tomkins, Ombudsman for the province of Saskatchewan, Mr. Scott Sutton, Ombudsman for the province of Alberta, Mr. Howard Kushner, Ombudsman for the province of British Columbia, Mr. Barry Tuckett, Ombudsman for the province of Manitoba, and Ms. Donna Drever, Deputy Ombudsman for the province of Manitoba.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, throughout Hansard last year in dealing with the unacceptably high numbers of kids in care that were warehoused at the hotels in Winnipeg under the Child and Family Services of Winnipeg, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Family Services stated that their so-called strategic plans, they had confidence in that planning process to provide better services for kids.

I would like to ask the Premier: has he been advised of the strategic plans of the agency, and has it provided and will it provide better services for kids?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I thank my honourable friend for that question. The Winnipeg agency, under the new leadership of Lance Barber, has been focusing on strategic planning and reorganizing along functional lines rather than area. Madam Speaker, there were four different areas that were functioning in isolation, one of each other in many instances from time to time, and the whole new plan will focus on program areas and function areas.

The intake of children across all four areas will be co-ordinated, and there will be one central intake which will allow for better planning, better understanding of what the issues are. We have confidence that as the agency reorganizes, they will certainly be able to better serve the needs of the children that they need to support. Again, I do want to indicate that these are children that the agency is having to deal with that have been abused or neglected in their own homes, and it is important that we try to find the best solutions for the best reasons.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, the real issue here is: are we getting substance for kids or are we getting public relations statements from this minister and this Premier (Mr. Filmon)?

In a summary of area meetings, Mr. Barber is quoted as saying that the agency believes changing staffing will not deal with the situation. The government does partly believe this myth about the agency, but management believes in the end strategic planning will fall far short of magic solutions the government may be expecting and may be proposing here in this Chamber.

Why has this Premier and this minister not gone beyond the myth of what they are saying in the House to real solutions for kids in care, including hotels, foster homes, preventative care–real solutions, not words?

Mrs. Mitchelson: Again, I thank my honourable friend for that question. I guess the only magic solution that might be looked at is the magic solution that the NDP seems to think they can find when you are dealing with issues around abused and neglected children, Madam Speaker. I have always said that the issues are extremely complex.

Madam Speaker, what we are having to deal with in our Child and Family Services system is as a result of dysfunctional families. That is why we have put over $20 million last year and another over $20 million this year into early intervention, into support for families through our BabyFirst initiatives, through our EarlyStart initiatives, through the Women and Infant Nutrition Program, through our Stop Fetal Alcohol Syndrome initiatives. These are all things that should prevent the need for the use of the Child and Family Services system into the future, and I have every confidence that the agency is working as aggressively as it can, realizing and recognizing that these early intervention programs are going to impact for many, many years to come. They do not deal right now with the kids that have needs within our Child and Family Services system.

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Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): We do not believe that, in dealing with children in care, hotels will deal with the inadequacies of dysfunctional families. We need real secure and safe places but not hotel rooms. Mr. Govereau commented on the five deaths in 1995 and recommended that specific reviews be taken on those particular tragic deaths, and further, Justice Guy commented on the death of baby Thompson, that caseloads must be decreased to more acceptable levels rather than the two and a half to three times the recommended caseload that is presently the case here in Manitoba.

I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon): has he acted upon the Child Advocate report of 1996, and has he acted on Justice Guy's recommendations, or are we going to continue to see unacceptably high caseloads for people working with kids in crisis?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for that question because part of the reorganization within the Winnipeg agency is to de-layer administration and put, I think, 31 more positions on the front line, so I do know that the Winnipeg agency is trying to address in some part with the reorganization, the workload. The other issue around workload is one that we take very seriously, and we have been working with the agency and have indicated we need to co-operate in order to determine what is a workload or a caseload. As they reorganize their system into functional operations rather than area operations, we should be able to assess and ensure that caseloads are appropriate to the kind of work that social workers are doing within the system.

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Yesterday, when we raised the issue of children in hotels and temporary placements, the minister said that she wanted to put resources into early intervention and millions and millions of dollars into the front end.

I would like to ask the minister if she will tell the House and tell the Lord Selkirk Family Resource Centre when their long-standing submission for funding will be approved so that they can provide preventive resources in their community.

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend again for the question and I do want to indicate that the issue of children being housed in hotels is a serious issue, one that we have been working with the agency on. I know that the statistics for April and May of this year were 29 children per month in hotels, but I do know that for the average monthly use, since last March 1998, the numbers were 15 per month on average. So I indicated in my answers in previous days and I will say again today that the numbers do fluctuate from day to day and from month to month, and we have to try to aggressively ensure that children are not staying the length of time that they were staying in hotel rooms and we are serious about addressing that issue.

Madam Speaker, we have worked throughout the community, and we will continue to look at proposals that come from the community around early intervention.

Mr. Martindale: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services why she cannot give an answer today or at least in July 1999 to the Lord Selkirk Family Resource Centre, when in June 1998 she said she was going to review the request and make a decision. When are we going to get a decision on this funding request for this very important and preventive family resource program?

Mrs. Mitchelson: I thank my honourable friend for that question. I know that he is really supportive of all the community initiatives that we have undertaken in his constituency to ensure that families are able to provide the kinds of supports to their children that I know he believes we do need. We just spent hours in the Estimates process and he certainly could have asked that question in the Estimates process, and I would have had the answer for him. But I will undertake to get the answer for him and provide it.

Mr. Martindale: I would like to ask the minister, who has no plan for getting children out of hotels and who has known about the family resource centre for four years, when is this minister going to make a decision, since we know that the number of children in care in the Lord Selkirk development were from 40 percent of all the units four years ago, now only two families have open files at Child and Family Services, this is an extremely successful preventive–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, I know that many neighbourhoods and communities are finding the answers and the solutions to trying to build stronger communities and stronger families. I know that Lord Selkirk is one of those. But, you know, we spent several hours again in the Estimates process last week, and I asked my honourable friend many times through that Estimates process, given that he is the Minister of Family Services in waiting, what his solutions might be to some of the issues, and he had no solutions.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

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Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, on a point of order. We clearly heard the member for Burrows from his seat indicate that they do not have to have any answers or solutions because they are not government, and with that kind of comment from his seat, they never will be government.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Burrows, on the same point of order.

Mr. Martindale: Madam Speaker, on the same point of order, Beauchesne 417 says that answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised, should not provoke debate. The Minister of Family Services is the government. I said they should have solutions; they do not have solutions. She had a chance to say that in her answer. We have a suggestion today: the minister has no answer.

Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Minister of Family Services, there was no point of order.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, in 1997 and 1998, the Town of Virden and the surrounding R.M. of Wallace were engaged in a bitter debate about the town's demand to annex some 2,560 acres of land from the R.M. The initial Municipal Board recommendation to the minister was set aside by the minister, and attempts at mediation failed ultimately because the town would not agree to the mediation report recommended by both parties. After promising not to impose the Municipal Board findings, the Minister of Rural Development suddenly changed his mind and imposed the very findings of the board he had previously set aside. Why did the Minister of Rural Development impose the very settlement on the R.M. that he had previously set aside?

Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Madam Speaker, as the member may know, the reason that the order was set aside was because there was some hope that indeed the two sides could agree to a settlement which would resolve some of the issues that were before the two municipal bodies. Negotiations went on for some time, but in the end, unfortunately, the two sides could not agree. Because the two sides could not agree, it was known right from the very beginning that if that agreement could not be reached, indeed the municipal order then would be imposed as a method of settling the dispute between the two municipalities.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minister who knows that that is not the sworn statement of his own staff, Mr. Sawatzky, and it is not the finding of the cross-examination, acknowledge before the House today that he changed his mind because he was brought under severe and prolonged pressure by a member of this House to do so?

Mr. Derkach: Madam Speaker, I hate to be facetious, but it appears that the member opposite has once again had a bad dream. In all honesty, it was known from the very beginning that the order was set aside in the hope that there could be a mediated agreement between the two municipalities. When that was not possible, when the agreement could not be achieved, indeed, the order had to be imposed as was passed by the Municipal Board.

Mr. Sale: Will the minister, who I am sure does not want to mislead the House, not confess in fact that he told the reeve of the R.M. of Wallace that Mr. Downey had put him under severe and prolonged pressure to change his mind, and that the same Mr. Downey, Madam Speaker, acknowledged in fact, in a meeting on December 7, 1998, witnessed by eight people–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind, firstly, before recognizing the minister for response, the honourable member for Crescentwood that our rules are very clear. You should be referring to any member in this Legislature by the name of his or her constituency.

Mr. Derkach: Well, Madam Speaker, the member is not correct. Indeed, it was known from the very beginning that the order was temporarily set aside in the hope that a mediated agreement could be reached on the properties that were in dispute. After a significant amount of time in trying to achieve the settlement, there were signals given that, if a settlement could not be reached at a certain point in time, the order would be imposed, and indeed the municipal order was indeed imposed after it was very clear that a mediated resolution could not be arrived at between the two municipalities.

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Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, the Minister of Health was recently sent a letter from one of my constituents regarding the nearly $6,000 he has been forced to pay over the last two and a half years travelling to and from The Pas to get treatment. I want to ask this minister why it costs more for people of northern Manitoba to access health care and whether it makes sense that a cancer patient should be forced to pay a $50 user fee, virtually all the costs for the escort, and other costs for more than 15 trips in those two and a half years to Winnipeg.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the member referred to a constituent of his who has written myself and my office. I certainly will be responding to that particular letter.

Again, we have talked about the issue of providing services as close to communities and in communities as possible. That has been a major part of regionalization in the province of Manitoba. We have seen enhancement of services in communities like Brandon, like Thompson and elsewhere throughout our province, and that certainly is one of the objectives of our health plan, to continue to do that, to continue to enhance services in communities so people can receive the services when they need them, where they need them. But there are still instances where people have to come to Winnipeg primarily to our two tertiary hospitals and in some cases to our other facilities to receive services, and that will continue to take place.

Mr. Lathlin: Madam Speaker, my second question is to ask the Minister of Health and his government why his government is forcing people from northern Manitoba, patients from northern Manitoba to travel to Winnipeg, literally being forced to come to Winnipeg because there are no other services available in The Pas and spend $6,000 in two years to access health care. Why is he forcing those people to come all the way to Winnipeg for treatment and incur a lot of expenses while his government has spent more than $675,000 for the propaganda of the Filmon government?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, again, as the member for The Pas knows, we now spend some $2.1 billion on health care in the province of Manitoba, almost 36 percent of all of the money we spend on behalf of Manitobans. This budget alone, a budget that he and his colleagues stood up and supported, it includes $194 million more for health care, a 10 percent increase, to continue to improve services in a number of areas. There is more money dealing with diagnostic services, reducing waiting lists, more money for surgical procedures, more money for cancer treatment procedures and a number of enhancements to our health care system. But again, I think we recognize in some speciality areas where there are provincial programs that services still cannot be provided in every community and every region of our province. For certain specialties, they have to be concentrated in facilities in many cases here in Winnipeg, but again, you just need to look at our financial commitment and the enhancement of programs and the reductions in waiting lists to certainly recognize our significant commitment to health care in the province of Manitoba.

Mr. Lathlin: I would like to ask the minister finally: would he consider removing today the $50 Filmon user fee at least for cancer patients who are forced to come to Winnipeg anyway, and also that the Northern Patient Transportation Program to include, instead of removing, the transportation subsidy that was provided for escorts?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, again I think the member for The Pas I am sure acknowledges that the Northern Patient Transportation Program acknowledges the fact that people have to travel from other communities to the city of Winnipeg to receive services. We provide millions of dollars supporting that program. In fact, as the member knows, we just had to deal with a significant offload from the federal government to deal with members of our First Nations communities, additional costs that are now being paid by the Province of Manitoba in the millions of dollars. So it is a significant program, a significant commitment to ensure that people can get the services here in the city of Winnipeg where those specialized services are provided.

So we are providing millions of dollars to do just what the member is talking about, to provide the services to the people in northern Manitoba to access the medical services they need here in the city of Winnipeg.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gilleshammer) or the Minister of Housing.

Yesterday we raised the issue of the continual deterioration of our housing stock in the province and in particular in the north end of Winnipeg. We look to the government to demonstrate its abilities to demonstrate leadership, leadership on issues such as the infill housing program, co-op housing start program, residential rehabilitation programs. These are the types of programs that are necessary in order to rectify the very serious problem that we face today.

My question to either minister is: is the government prepared to reopen its budget and come back with a budget that would address the very serious issue of deterioration of our housing stock?

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Madam Speaker, this government recognizes that there is a responsibility to be aware of a lot of the social problems and some of the housing conditions that are not only prevalent, as the member mentioned, in north end Winnipeg but throughout Manitoba. This is one of the reasons why we have increased our funding. In regard to the RAP program that he has talked about, we have contributed just over $616,000 as a provincial contribution in partnership with the federal government to look at actually increasing the availability of funding. This has also been to look at approximately 200 units that can take advantage of these residential improvements in their housing.

As mentioned, this is a joint program with the federal government. The federal government has been a partner with the provincial government on a lot of housing initiatives. But as the member knows, the federal government has been slowly pulling itself out of all commitments to public housing throughout not only Manitoba but throughout all of Canada. This puts the added burden not only on the provincial government but on municipalities in trying to make adequate housing available. Unless the federal government is prepared to look at reintroducing more federal dollars, then the provincial government cannot do this all alone.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gilleshammer).

Does the Minister of Finance believe that tens of millions of dollars in property overassessment that individuals in particular in the north end of Winnipeg are in fact having to pay is fair? I appeal to the Minister of Finance to recognize the injustice that is there and to take some form of action to alleviate that injustice.

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Madam Speaker, we are naturally concerned about the taxation burden and the effect of taxation on all levels of citizens in Manitoba, and this is one of the reasons why this government initiated the Lower Tax Commission, to look at ways of the best utilization of not only how taxes are spent but of lowering taxes in our province. This is one of the reasons why a committee has been formed to look at all areas of taxation.

The idea that I mentioned yesterday regarding the assessment and the assessment process through the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach) and the Assessment Department there, they have worked very, very closely with the City of Winnipeg and their Assessment Department to try to bring in some sort of semblance of a meaningful approach to assessment in the city of Winnipeg. We believe that through these types of co-operations in working with the City of Winnipeg and working with them in their Assessment branch that we can come to some sort of reasonable solutions towards looking at a fair and equitable tax base and assessment not only within Winnipeg but throughout all of Manitoba.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, on a new issue. Whether it is students, whether it is parents, whether it is the teachers–my question is for the Minister of Education and asking the Minister of Education to look at the integrity of the standards exams. Given the minister is not prepared to table the report, because of that we ask the government at the very least to acknowledge that, if they are not going to table the report, they are going to call for an independent investigation into this whole disaster that the Minister of Education has failed to give proper reporting on.

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I am prepared to table the report. The writer of the report, Mr. John Wiens, the superintendent of the Seven Oaks School Division, says at page 4 of his report that he respectfully suggests that the government might wish to seek legal advice prior to its release. That I have done.

I have also asked officials responsible for the administration of the Freedom of Information and Privacy Protection legislation to have a look at the report, and that has been done as well. Certain parts of the report have had to be severed. For that reason today, I have to table the expurgated version of the report on allegations of breaches of security regarding the administration of provincial examinations at Maples Collegiate.

I note the conspiracy of silence that shrouds the New Democratic Party over this sordid matter, and that silence, Madam Speaker, I suggest, speaks quite loudly about the integrity of the leadership of the New Democratic Party.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker–[interjection]

Madam Speaker, could you call the member for Assiniboia (Mrs. McIntosh) to order. I cannot even hear myself talk because the member is rattling from her seat.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Kildonan was not up on a point of order. The honourable member for Kildonan took the liberty of drawing that to the Speaker's attention after he had been recognized to pose the question, so therefore there is no official point of order.

The honourable member for Assiniboia, on a point of order?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, several people on this side clearly heard members opposite say they already had the full report, so I am wondering why they are asking for it.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Chomiak: Over a month ago, we asked the minister serious questions about an accident that occurred, under a community college that is licensed by the government, where people were almost killed, hospitalized, some serious breaches were alleged of provincial regulations. Some of these people do not have jobs; some of these people do not have compensation; some have been forced to go on welfare. We asked the minister to investigate this situation.

We have one of the students up in the gallery today. Can the minister advise what the investigation revealed about an accident that occurred almost a year ago in a program that has been authorized by this provincial government?

Hon. Jim McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): The honourable member asked a question about a vocational school which comes under the authority of The Private Vocational Schools Act. In response to that inquiry by the honourable member, we have been conducting a review of the circumstances surrounding that event and will be making the results of that review known to the honourable member in due course, at a time when we are able to do so.

Mr. Chomiak: I would like to ask the minister about the Department of Education's priorities in terms of dealing with serious issues. Can the minister indicate whether or not these students, 10 months after the accident, whether the minister or the minister's department or anyone has contacted these students to ask if there is any assistance required, to inquire about the accident and the state of their health and, in fact, their future since some of them were in a program at the request of the provincial government?

Mr. McCrae: I remind the honourable member that it was over 12 months ago that their campaign manager, Mr. Brian O'Leary, breached examination protocol and opened a package that he was not supposed to open. So the honourable member wants to talk to me about 10 months. I could talk to him about 12 months and why it is that no action has been taken by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) with respect to his own campaign manager, who has publicly acknowledged breaching exam protocol.

With respect to the matter raised by the honourable member, I have indeed made inquiries about it, and I will be making the results of that inquiry known to the honourable member.

Mr. Chomiak: I believe that Manitobans witnessing this will understand the priorities attached by this government to the lives of Manitobans. I would like to ask the minister: will the minister meet with these students to inquire as to their condition and endeavour to try to assist these students to receive compensation for their losses as a result of this accident, many of whom were in this course at the request of the provincial government, for which there is no compensation that has been forwarded either by that vocational college or by the provincial government of which these people are suffering, and is that not a priority of this government?

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

Mr. McCrae: If there is any appropriate way that I can be of assistance to these students or any other students, Madam Speaker, of course I am willing to meet with people. The honourable member suggests, however, there is some area of responsibility here that I am supposed to be assuming, and if that is true, no doubt I will find that out upon the full review of the matters at issue here. But the honourable member asks that I meet with students. I would be delighted to do that because there is no reason in the world that I should not meet with any student involved in education in Manitoba. If there is any appropriate way that I can help, that is what I am here for.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, before the Housing Estimates I asked the Minister of Housing for information about not-for-profit housing maintenance schedules and budgets, about properties declared surplus and arrears owed to Manitoba Housing. The minister said he would get it to me before Estimates, but at the Estimates table he said he forgot the file. The next day he said he brought the wrong file; then I was given incomplete information. Last week I was told it was on the minister's desk.

I want to ask the minister: what is he hiding, and is it what not-for-profit housing corporations are telling me, that their maintenance budgets and their overall budgets have been cut and they cannot maintain their properties?

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Madam Speaker, one of the processes of Estimates is naturally the requests for information that the various members of the opposition will always ask for from the various ministries. The member for Radisson has been true to her course in asking for a lot of information. I know that the Department of Housing is in the process of getting the information ready for her. There is nothing that we are trying to hide; there is nothing that is mysterious about the process other than the fact that it is an assignment of resources to get the information. The information, to the best of my knowledge, is not sitting on my desk as she has alluded to. My desk has very few papers on it, because I work very diligently. I try to move the papers off there as fast as I can. So I would think that if I go down to my desk shortly after Question Period and I find it there, I will make sure that I get it to her.

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Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, I want to remind the member that Estimates for Housing were completed more than a month and a half ago. I want to ask–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member please pose her question.

Ms. Cerilli: I want to ask him: did he also hide it from tenants in public housing in Manitoba Housing? There are a number of tenants who have been asking the minister for a meeting. I am wondering if the minister could clarify for us today: is it his policy to meet with tenants in Manitoba Housing when they request a meeting with him?

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Madam Speaker, I place a very, very high priority on tenants and tenants' associations and tenants' relations not only between myself and the tenants but between the tenants' associations and my whole department. We strive very, very diligently and constantly to try to make contact with tenants. I have never refused a meeting with any type of tenants' association if they wanted to meet with me.

I have gone to the tenants' association meetings in their complexes. I have gone to the member's area, into Transcona, to the Triplex Association. I have met with them on numerous occasions. I go to Gilbert Park to meet, Lord Selkirk Park. I have been at a lot of tenants' association meetings. If they want to meet with me, my door is open or I will go to their association and meet with them on their terms and their conditions. I will not stop meeting with the tenants' associations. I hope the member is not suggesting that I do not meet with them.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, I wonder if the minister can explain that perhaps what is happening is he has not been getting his mail and his telephone messages. I want to ask him, since he has asked me to send all of my correspondence requests directly to his office, why does it now seem to be the policy in his department that tenants who write the minister consistently get a response from the deputy minister? Is the minister getting his mail?

Mr. Reimer: Well, I hope the member is not putting aspersions on Canada Post. I believe that Canada Post does a tremendous job, because there is a responsibility there, and I would think that if Canada Post are not delivering their mail to me, we will find out for sure. But the mail that comes across my desk, all mail that comes into my office, if it is addressed to the Minister of Urban Affairs or the Minister of Housing or to me personally, it is opened, it is read, it is redirected by myself. I do not filter the mail that comes to my office. I want to read about the people that are willing to meet with me or wanting to phone me. My phone number, I can give my phone number here to the people who are possibly watching on Access TV, 945-0074.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): To the Minister of Justice. Yesterday I asked the minister if he would confirm that, since it was announced over four years ago, not one single parent has been found financially responsible under The Parental Responsibility Act, and the minister later came back in Estimates with this response. He said, and I quote: "That is incorrect. My information leads me to believe that there has been some success in that. Specifically," and he said: "I am aware of a case in Flin Flon where a judgment was awarded against the parents of a child who had broken a car window with a rock."

My question to the minister is: Why did he once again make such a misleading statement?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Well, I do not know what the member is referring to, but that is certainly my information from the court staff. I know that in some cases it is difficult for court staff to determine if a small claim action is in fact a Parental Responsibility Act action because the plaintiff is not identified on the small claims form that it is such a claim. So my information leads me to believe there is in fact utilization of that process and that the principles in the act indeed are not only utilized in our formal court system but through our youth justice committees as well.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would this minister, who, by the way, would think that a difference between no cases and one case is as the difference between dismal failure and runaway success, I want this minister–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Will the honourable member please pose a question?

Mr. Mackintosh: I ask the minister: explain to this House why he has misled, apparently deliberately misled, this House. Why is he saying this?

Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Madam Speaker, on a point of order, Beauchesne clearly states "misleading deliberately" is definitely out of order. I would ask you to bring the member to order.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, on the same point of order.

Mr. Mackintosh: I ask that question as well deliberately because an answer was given very specifically by the minister yesterday in Supply. He repeated that answer today. He had plenty of time to look at the information and get the accurate information from the officials within–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for St. Johns is defending why he made the statement, not speaking to the point of order.

The honourable member for St. Norbert indeed did have a point of order. The term "deliberately misled" directed to a member of the Assembly has been ruled unparliamentary on several occasions, and I would ask the honourable member for St. Johns to please withdraw the words "deliberately misled."

Mr. Mackintosh: In that event, Madam Speaker, I rise on a matter of privilege. I will be concluding my matter of privilege with the substantive motion, and this matter of privilege deals with what appears to be a deliberately misleading statement.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. We must deal with the ruling that was made by the Speaker prior to the member rising on a matter of privilege, and the ruling was that I asked the honourable member for St. Johns to withdraw the words "deliberately mislead."

Mr. Mackintosh: I will withdraw that and proceed with the matter of privilege within which I will allege and prove, Madam Speaker, that this minister deliberately misled the House.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The rules are very specific. All I ask is that the honourable member please just withdraw the words unequivocally, and let the Speaker conclude the point of order before proceeding to the next order of business.

Now could I please ask for the honourable member to repeat, because I do not have the benefit of the record in front of me, that he withdraw.

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Mr. Mackintosh: I withdraw, and I proceed now with the matter of privilege, Madam Speaker.

The matter of privilege, Madam Speaker–is there more, or do you want me to say it a third time here?

Madam Speaker: I find the honourable member rather disrespectful and also very argumentative. I asked him to withdraw and then let me conclude the matter. Then I will re-recognize the honourable member.

I thank the honourable member for St. Johns for his withdrawal.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Would this minister, who does not want Manitobans to rely on statistics about The Parental Responsibility Act but rather his vivid imagination, tell this House why is it that he does not check his facts before he makes strong statements in committee and in this House? Why does he do so?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): As indicated in the House last date, I took the matter as notice in respect to those statistics. I had received some information prior to Estimates, and I put some information on the record. I will, as I indicated, put all comments onto the record in due course, but as indicated, the statistics that I have indicate, in fact, that there has been a judgment granted in a case. Whether that will be confirmed after my review of all of the facts, I do not know, Madam Speaker, but certainly my statistics indicate that the act is being utilized.

It is a very important act. It is the first act of its kind in Canada. I think not only do the statistics here indicate that it is being utilized but, secondly, that the principle of the act is being used in the context of youth justice committees. I think that is very important to bear in mind.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired.