The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Rocan): I see the minister is coming at full tilt, and the critic, the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), is already present in the chair.

The honourable member for Broadway has four minutes remaining in his opening statement. The honourable member for Broadway, would you like to carry on your spiel, sir?

Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Mr. Chair, I would like to do so.

I have already stated that this is the Year of Older Persons, 1999, and suddenly everyone cannot escape the fact we are getting older. It does not mean you have to be weak or helpless when you get old. I suppose we live the rest of our lives according to the norm and the point of view that we have set for ourselves, how we live our life. I would like to present, as a conclusion, one view about life, one view among many.

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Mr. Chair, I think life is the meaningful use of our transitory time for doing activities that we may achieve certain desired objectives, the significance of which ideally should outlast our life. In essence, the basic point that I am trying to say is that the time of our life is transitory. It is uncertain as to its duration. Nobody can say I will live so many years. I will live so many years; I am still young. Nobody can say that. Nobody knows.

During such a transitory duration of our life, the life itself should consist of doing activities. Of course, a lot of it we spend talking, but talking is still doing, except it has no result. I propose the most significant set of activities we can do in our life are those that have a meaning, a significance that will outlast the very life itself.

Life is uncertain, how long it will last. The only aspect that is certain about our life is that it will end. As to when, we do not know. Therefore, the following guidelines, norms, conduct, whatever rules you may call them, we have to bear in mind, given this fact of uncertainty about life.

Do not put off for tomorrow what you can do today. Do not waste the time of another person for what you can do yourself. You should be willing to endure life and all its travails. Do not complain. Do not explain. Do not complicate things. Do not be bitter. It will not achieve anything. So we make life simple, durable, as pleasant as it can be.

That concludes my statement. [interjection] Mr. Chairperson, I can still add something to that if you wish.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Rocan): Yes, go ahead.

Mr. Santos: Okay. If life is to be made endurable, we have to accept those things that we think to be impossible. Those things which we thought were indispensable, we can do without them. What we initially think to be unbearable, we have to bear them because it is essential that we learn how to do it. Indeed, we can consider that every moment of our life is a nonrepeatable miracle that we must be able to use meaningfully in order to achieve something that we thought would not harm any other human being or complicate the life of any other but make it a little bit more bearable and pleasant to live. The basic point is that life consists of doing activities, not simply thinking or planning. We can plan and plan, and then we run out of time to execute the plan. As King Solomon said: the race is not to the swift nor the battle to the strong nor the bread to the wise nor riches to men of scale, but time and chance happen to them all.

One undesirable thing that could possibly happen to any one of us is to prepare and prepare like somebody who wants to run for public office: oh, I will do it next year, oh, I will do it next election, oh, I will do it next year or next time around. What will happen then, things, events will pass him by and nothing will happen, and then things will change beyond his control and then the opportunity is gone. Do not talk about what you want to do; just do it and do it now. There may be no other opportunity to do it.

The third basic point is the fact that whatever activities we do, they must be related to some purpose. Indeed, anything we do should have some kind of objective or a goal. We cannot just be a rebel without a cause. You must gear to something meaningful. All your activities should be tied to some purpose, the significance of which will outlast the duration of our life. Therefore I say if what we have been doing is meaningful and significant to every other person other than ourselves, when we are alive and we have done so many things that affect favourably and positively the life of other people, then I would say even the undertaker maybe will be sorry when we are gone.

So let us live our life, transitory as it is, doing activities that we enjoy doing, related to some good and noble purpose, significant and meaningful to others so that when we depart to the great beyond what we have done will be felt gratefully and thankfully by those people who cannot even recall what we are like or what we have been as an individual person. Thank you.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Rocan): I would like to thank the honourable member for Broadway for his remarks. We will now continue the consideration of the line items for the Seniors Directorate. Before we do that, we would like to invite all the staff who are here present this afternoon to join us at the table, each and every one of you, if you will. Do not all come down here at the same time but get yourselves to the table.

You are going to need a long list to introduce all your staff.

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister responsible for Seniors): Well, I remember all of them.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Rocan): We would ask the minister now to introduce his staff.

Mr. Reimer: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairperson. With me I have my Seniors Directorate Ms. Kathy Yurkowski.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Rocan): And the rest of them.

Mr. Reimer: They are coming later.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Rocan): Okay. I would like to thank the minister for introducing all of his staff.

We are now on line 1, 24.1. Seniors Directorate (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $523,600, which is on page 138 of the Main Estimates book. The floor is now open for questions. I am looking to the honourable member for Broadway.

Mr. Santos: Mr. Chairperson, this is a department which I hope will be growing as the needs of seniors multiply and achieve greater significance. I have been in the past saying that this is a department that only does some public relations things but had no substantive program of its own because it has no allocation, no substantial amount of money that it can spend on its own set of activities.

I hope some day some of the major programs of the department of the Ministry of Health and other ministries of government that vitally and crucially affect seniors will be moved over to the Seniors Directorate so that the executive director and the staff will be able to carry out the function in a substantive way rather than just be an adjunct department to some substantial huge department like Ministry of Health and other departments of government.

Right now I could see that the minister is the political head of the Seniors Directorate. There is an executive director and alongside with her there is a international year of–I am looking now at page 4 of the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review. I am looking at the organizational flowchart. That one is new to me. International Year of Persons co-ordinator. Could the honourable minister explain what the office is and what are its duties and responsibilities?

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Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, it is kind of appropriate that we start off on this line because I think that 1999 is a very, very exciting year here, not only in Manitoba or Winnipeg or Canada but throughout the world. The reason for that is it has been designated as the International Year of Older Persons or has been sometimes referred to the IYOP. The philosophy behind the IYOP is that it is a way to showcase, to highlight the seniors in our community, to thank them for their contribution, their involvement, their continued support for seniors programs throughout all of the world.

Here in Manitoba we have always been very, very proactive in trying to celebrate any type of programs in regard to whether it is the seniors–the member may recall that we did have quite a very successful International Year of the Family celebration here in Manitoba. One of the reasons behind that was that there was a co-ordinator assigned to be involved with some of the programming and the events co-ordination and the liaison between the department and the community, because there has been a tremendous uptake and a tremendous amount of support shown by organizations and people who do want to get involved with showcasing the seniors.

So this is one of the reasons why we have a co-ordinator. We hired a co-ordinator well over a year ago, I guess, and her name is Motria Koltec. She has taken on the job in a very, very commendable way. She has been very, very actively involved throughout all of Manitoba as a co-ordinator and a liaison person and as a tremendous ambassador for the initiatives of the IYOP. So we are very, very fortunate that we were able to secure this lady for this position. It is a position that requires an awful lot of work and dedication and involvement, but she certainly has shown a capability of rising to the task, if you want to call it.

The tasks involved, or the job description, if you want to call it that, involves getting involved with the communities and making it known that we do have a bit of a grant program involved with the IYOP where seniors groups can take advantage of small grants to help them in the planning or the programming of their celebrations, whether it is here in Winnipeg or, like I said before, any place in Manitoba. We had a very, very significant uptake on the amount of applications we had and the people who wanted to get involved.

One of the functions of the co-ordinator was to analyze, to contact and to be made aware of the various programs that were being proposed, their viability and the parameters that they fell within in trying to address how it was outlined for the International Year of Older Persons under the United Nations standards for presentation to other people, whether it was younger people or intergenerational programming. So these were some of the things that she was very actively involved with.

It has been very, very beneficial I think to all Manitobans. We have had very excellent response and feedback from her involvement. In general, I think that it is a very healthy way to, like I say, have a hands-on approach to trying to address and to celebrate the accomplishments and the contributions of our seniors here in Manitoba.

Mr. Santos: Mr. Chairperson, I know that on a global scale the World Health Organization proposed the idea of a global walk, which emphasized both active aging and hope for international participation. Apparently, that program or set of activities–the Global Walk, they call it–will be held October 1, 1999, which is now coming, of course, when for 24 hours a group of cities hour after hour, time zone after time zone, will be celebrating aging around the world in order to support the celebration of 1999 as the International Year of Older Persons, to remind people, the audience, the world around us, of the collective achievements of the older person, their hopes and their aspirations for the future. Are we a part of that in this province?

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, yes, we are. In fact, we are in the process of setting up a summit in and around that time to take advantage of not only the hype that will be around the walk that the member has talked about, but we feel it is also a time to get more exposure to our seniors here in Manitoba to a summit conference. We have invited some speakers and participants, a wellness conference format, in a sense, and also to, like I say, showcase some of the attributes of healthy living with the seniors. The walk will be part of the component of it, and we will be participating in it. I believe the date that we are looking at is October 2, for not only the wellness conference but to be part of the walk that the member is referring to.

Mr. Santos: As to specifics, what will be the particular kinds of activities? Where will they walk, as to time and place and location and setting?

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, we are in the process right now, in consultation with some of the seniors groups in and around Winnipeg, and also we are outreaching into the rural areas where there are seniors groups, with the idea that all the various groups whether combined or individually will be part of this walk. The idea is to tabulate the kilometres that they will be walking.

One of the host organizers of it is Bata, from Bata Shoes. They will be compiling the mileages or the kilometres, I guess it is, from all around the world. All of the seniors centres and our seniors groups that will be doing some sort of walk will have their kilometres tabulated in this walk. Here in Winnipeg with that summit conference that we are organizing, we are in discussions right now with the seniors groups as to what is the best way to implement and maximize the amount of exposure and possibly the best amount of kilometres that can be realized during that period.

The idea, as the member mentioned, is that this would be a worldwide walk in recognition of seniors and with one central agency doing the compilation, which is Bata. There will be a total kilometre come out of the participation throughout all of the world.

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Mr. Santos: Actually, out of the five values that I discussed in our opening statements, this is participation, I believe. It is the involvement of seniors in those activities that concern themselves, the community at large and their welfare. In Manitoba, according to compiled statistics by Statistics Canada and Manitoba statistics, our total population as of 1996 is 1,145,242. Out of that there are 156,258 people who are aged 65 and over.

Given that, as far as I can ascertain, there is only one major group of seniors organizations or two at the most, 156,258 is 13.64 percent of the total. How many of the 156,000 are active participants and members of Manitoba organizations of seniors, retirees organizations, and other groups? Do we have any compiled statistics on that?

Mr. Reimer: I guess there is always that interpretation of active as to what degree are people active. You have seniors that are 65 and over that are physically very active and still very, very involved. I believe there were even seniors running in the marathon last weekend, in their 60s. I believe they even had some in the 70s. So the degree of activity really is a measurement of how the senior participates in the various levels of whether it is competitive action or day-to-day action. I guess there is an interpretation of activity in that way.

I think though that if you talk to any senior just about, they like to feel that they are active in some sort of way and still part of some sort of contribution. I guess where the inactivity comes in is possibly through some sort of debilitating disease or unfortunate circumstances of possibly dementia or Alzheimer's but, even at that, in some of those instances the individuals are still fairly active. It is just, unfortunately, that a portion of their bodies may not be responding in an active manner.

So the idea of classification of activity I guess is hard to put a figure on because some seniors would like to feel that they are active. Whether they are 65 or 85, they are still active, and indeed I have seen that. So I think that age really is a hard criteria, to say that a person becomes inactive after a certain age because they always have a certain degree of activity.

Mr. Santos: I guess we have to define what we mean by the aspect of activity that we are talking about. I had in mind some information that we can compile perhaps as to seniors over 65 who are members of some organized group, acknowledged and recognized by various levels of government. If we are to compile such information, how do we go about it, or are we starting to do that? People who are members of one or more organizations, they receive grants, they volunteer in community activities and things like that as a group. Do we have such a kind of information?

Mr. Reimer: I think maybe the closest we might have as to where there could be possible classification would possibly be in what just happened down in Carman very recently, which is the MSOS games. There the criteria was 55. However, that did not limit seniors over 55 and 65 and 75 from being involved. I think most likely in the MSOS there would be some sort of criteria for participation in regard to an age limit or an age breakdown. I know that in slow-pitch softball there are games and teams broken down by ages. In fact, they go up into the 80s in the slow-pitch baseball. I have had the opportunity to open up some of those. I believe it is called the Polar Bear Classic here in Winnipeg. I will have that opportunity to do the opening ceremonies again in the early part of July.

In those levels of participation, you have seniors that are 55 participating. Then there is another group at 60 and then a group at 65 and 70 and 75. I believe there are even groups over 80 that are participating in slow-pitch. So that is maybe one level of criteria for activity measurement.

A very good example of activity is what happened earlier this year when we had the launch of John Glenn, 77 years old. I mean, here is a man that kept going since the first time he went up in space, which was I guess 25 years earlier, or maybe it was longer than that. I cannot remember when it was when he first went up. When he first went up, this gentleman kept going and taking the same physical every year, even up to and including when he was 77 years old, to still stay in a physically fit mode. I guess as a role model for seniors, we can see that if there is a willingness to still participate and a willingness to look after your body with the proper nutrition and attitude and lifestyle, aging really chronologically is just a term, is a measurement, if you want to call it, but in reality it is not a fact of what is within the person and how that person still interreacts and interrelates with the living process, if you want to call it.

I think that that is very, very important. When we look at people and we try to classify people, if we classify people strictly by their age, I think we miss out on a lot of things that are the intangibles. Instead of statistics we should be looking at their involvement, their contribution, their willingness to participate and their willingness to serve. A lot of times age is not a barrier in that.

So aging per se is something that I do not know whether we should tie specifically to chronological years, because the expression, you know, you are old in years and young in thought is sometimes very, very applicable. That contributes immensely to a person's wellness in the total concept, not only in his attitude or her attitude, but in their diet and their make-up and their beliefs and even their religion. That all comes into being for a person in regard to how they want to be part of life. So, you know, to try to put it into categories of age I think is a misnomer in a sense of trying to analyze how people are involved.

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Mr. Santos: It is true that age alone is not the only criterion. There are other criteria, but age is the only objective measure that a statistician can find because it is true of everybody. Our physical condition, our agility and alertness, these are difficult to measure. With age all you need to do is consult the date of your birth and then count the number of years, and then you have the category that you want. But in addition to that, there may be other considerations.

For legal purposes, we set retirement the age at 65. So most programs of government recognize that. In fact, although we have a program 55 Plus in the provincial government–I do not know, is that program still on?

Mr. Reimer: Yes, it is.

Mr. Santos: Somebody who is 55 is a senior for the purpose of that program, but when he wants to ride the bus and get a discount for seniors, he cannot qualify, because he is not 65.

Mr. Reimer: The member is right. Sometimes there is the perception that 55 Plus is a classification, and it is. It is a recognition, I believe, through Family Services, and this is where the connotation comes from. The member is more correct when he says that 65 is more or less recognized by government, if you want to call it, that that is the retirement age, and 55 Plus is just, like I say, used through the Family Services portfolio for classification of certain programs and benefits that are available to some of the individuals.

Mr. Santos: For purposes of discourse and our discussion, when we talk about seniors we really mean 65 and over. There might be an occasional odd program here and there where they may be classified as seniors, but for our purposes it will be 65 and over.

As I have stated, in Manitoba there are 13.64 percent 65 and over. They are not distributed equally across the province. The most numerous population distribution is Winnipeg, of course. There are 648,764 people in Winnipeg. Out of that, 88,713 are 65 and over, 88,000 in Winnipeg, just here in the city. Now, the reason why I cited these statistics, I want to correlate that with those who are members of the Manitoba Society of Seniors, retirees organization. As far as we know, as far as your Seniors Directorate records show, how many of this 88,000 are members of some organization or another?

Mr. Reimer: It has just been pointed out to me that those figures are not readily within our department, but they can be accessed. One of the ways that it might be very interesting to get a fairly updated breakdown of categories is with the summit that I alluded to a little earlier. A lot of the seniors groups will be registered for that and at that time the availability of memberships may be put forth by the groups. At that time it would be easier to correlate and tabulate the various numbers and the various categories, but at this particular time, we do not have those numbers on hand. That is something that maybe with the summit coming up could be pursued and we would be able to look at some fairly accurate numbers coming up, like I say, in the early part of October.

Mr. Santos: It would be a good idea to gather all this information because it will justify whatever kinds of programs Seniors Directorate may want to propose to government. The only reservation I may immediately mention is that, do we have the personnel to compile all this information in our department, in your directorate?

Mr. Reimer: Oh, yes. If it is available we would have the manpower or, pardon me, the staff available to do that.

Mr. Santos: This statistic I do not doubt, it is 88,000, because this is official statistics. Sorry for talking out of turn. I thought this was a conversation, but there is always the Chair at the head to direct my remarks to and also for the purpose of facilitating the recording of these proceedings. I should always raise my hand and wait for my turn. My apology, Mr. Chairperson.

Mr. Chairperson, the smallest population distribution is Churchill. There is a total population distribution of 1,060. All of Churchill, big, huge thing by ages 65 and over, as compiled by the regional health authority, but out of that population, there were only 51 seniors there. Does that mean that they cannot always stand the cold in Churchill? What does the minister think?

Mr. Reimer: That has been noticed by myself too, that there is not a large seniors population in Churchill. I do not know what the reason is. I think that maybe it is because a lot of the seniors, as they age they maybe move out of Churchill and come to a larger area. But the member is right, Churchill does not have that many seniors. It is something that I think that even with that small amount I think there are still even programs that are happening in Churchill with the seniors groups. I believe they have a group there in Churchill and a group meeting.

As I mentioned earlier, a lot of times these seniors groups and seniors organizations get involved, they stay active, even in a small amount of time with the seniors there. In fact, we have a Council on Aging which advises the minister. We sent them up there to have consultations with some of the seniors there, because we feel that it is important that we get perspectives of the seniors from all parts of Manitoba and not just Winnipeg. So they have gone to Churchill and they have met with the seniors group up there in Churchill. Right now one of the persons that will be going up there–the member is most likely aware that we set up an elder abuse hotline, an elder abuse program co-ordinator for training. She too will be going up there to put on some training seminars.

So Churchill, though it is small in nature, we still feel it is important that there is a presence there for their seniors concerns.

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Mr. Santos: I would like to make some kind of shift in the discussion. I would like to discuss the government's activities past 65 relating to seniors. I would like to review them and put them on the record. We know that the proposal of the federal government to merge the Old Age Security and the Guaranteed Income Supplement, which they proposed in March 1996, did not succeed. In August 1996 the current government in power in this province cut funding to the Community Home Service Program. This program was designed to give people receiving income assistance the opportunity to work helping low-income seniors and disabled persons maintain their homes. What was the nature of the cut? I cannot recall.

Mr. Reimer: I believe the program that the member is referring to was a program that was run by the city, and the city cut that. I do not know the rationale behind their decision making, but I am told that it is now run through Family Services. It has been transferred to Family Services. I am not familiar with the dollar amounts or the program structure at all.

Mr. Santos: This is what I meant, Mr. Chairperson, when programs like that directly affecting senior citizens are run by departments other than the Seniors Directorate. It will be wiser and perhaps reasonable that such programs be transferred to the Seniors Directorate so that program spending of a substantive nature will be within the handle of the direction from the Minister of Seniors. Would the minister agree to that?

Mr. Reimer: I think one of the things we are trying very diligently to do is to have a close co-ordination and co-operation between all departments in regard to what is happening and how it affects seniors.

It is a matter of communication, of meetings, of interdepartmental correspondence or positions so that these are funnelled to the Seniors Directorate. I know the department and the Seniors Directorate try very diligently to be on top of everything that is happening in regard to seniors, not only in our department but in some of the major departments that do have seniors exposures like Family Services and Health, which are the two major ones, naturally, but there are other departments that have exposure to seniors.

So there is a liaison set up. I believe there is a protocol of sorts of getting information back. We encourage that, and we make contact with the department so that there is that. I guess there is always room for more in trying to get information. Even the sharing of information on a nationwide basis is something that we are setting up, a National Framework on Aging, so that there is a co-ordination of not only problems with seniors here in Manitoba, but we are in the process of co-ordinating these programs nationally.

That was one of the things that came out of one of the ministerial meetings that I attended two years ago when we first proposed it. They have worked on it, and they got it into some sort of formative stage last year, and I believe that they are coming very close to trying to get a co-ordinated effort right across Canada to get this type of information because it is the sharing of information that can make things not only better for the seniors but it cuts out an awful lot of duplication, overlap and running with the idea of always reinventing something because it is a program that possibly we could be using from another province.

So I do agree with the member for Broadway that the more information and the sharing of information that we can get, we can utilize and we can dispense on our own merits, is something that can do only one thing and that is benefit the seniors and their access to programs or conditions that are of benefit to seniors.

Mr. Santos: I could understand the need for co-ordination between the federal level of government and the provinces. These are two different levels of government in a federal system. But within the province itself, if a certain set of activities falls into a category that directly affects certain groups of people, we normally allocate that to the department directly dealing with that segment of the population. Labour groups, for example, are clientele of the Ministry of Labour. Every other department has its own clientele: the hunters, the Department of Natural Resources; fishermen, Department of Natural Resources. With seniors this should be the Seniors Directorate not Family Services because they deal with kids and infants and all segments of the population. Anything that affects seniors should be properly allocated and transferred to the department of Seniors Directorate if this department is to be a significant department in government. Imagine 88,000 people 65 and over in the city of Winnipeg, and we do not have any substantive program that we can administer and spend money on. We have to rely on the discretion of bureaucrats in other departments of government.

Mr. Reimer: As I said earlier to the member, the sharing of information is always very important, and one of the things that we do, because of the presence of the Seniors Directorate in this government, other departments recognize that when they are dealing with seniors in their interpretations or their legislations or their regulations or their new directions that they are going to do, there is a consultation process with the Seniors Directorate. In fact, a lot of times the Seniors Directorate will arrange to bring in possibly focus groups or utilize the services of the Council on Aging. The Council on Aging, that I referred to earlier, is a very good sounding board, if you want to call it, of some of the things that are being proposed from various areas because it represents seniors from all areas of not only Winnipeg but Manitoba, and they act in an advisory capacity to the minister's office.

The other departments are aware that when there are seniors concerns or natures of change that are going to be affecting seniors, there is a contact to the Seniors Directorate, and the Seniors Directorate will be utilized as an analytical pool or a place to get further information or direction as to how to work with seniors. So there is a fairly close relationship between all departments and their knowledge that the Seniors Directorate is there, and if they are dealing with seniors problems or seniors programming or anything of that nature that our department is contacted. From there, then, the co-ordination of efforts come about, and the people will be involved with getting some sort of direction from our seniors people.

So there is that interdepartmental liaison and co-ordination, so it does happen.

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Mr. Santos: Mr. Chair, in the organizational chart that we have been referring to, the Manitoba Council on Aging, headed by Dr. Hampton, there are how many members of that body?

Mr. Reimer: There are 15 members in there from all–like I mentioned earlier, there are members from various parts of Manitoba. We try to get regional representation and people from different towns. The chairperson, Mr. Hampton, is from Brandon. He is a recognized doctor in Brandon and he serves as a very, very strong chairperson of that board and has shown a very keen interest in the council.

The membership is fairly constant, like I say, the 15 members. There is one vacancy right now, but that will be filled later on. So it is an active board. They meet about every two months, and we have sent this board out to various locations throughout Manitoba.

The idea is that it is not always held in Winnipeg. We try to get it into the small towns, in Brandon, and as mentioned earlier, we have sent it up to Churchill to talk to the seniors there, too. So it gives us a very good cross-section of concerns that are brought back to my attention.

Mr. Santos: Mr. Chairperson, as we stated before, Winnipeg has the largest concentration of 65-and-over seniors. According to this table, which is produced by the Manitoba Health Population Report of June 1, 1997, the next largest concentration will be Brandon–oh, Central they call it because it is by regional health authority. That is 13,434. Then next will be Interlake, 10,032. Is this representation on the Manitoba Council on Aging by territory or by population?

Mr. Reimer: When we are looking at the membership of the board, we try to look at the area, not necessarily the population. It is the Westman area or the Central area or the various areas themselves. In all likelihood, they do come from, a lot of times, some of the towns in that particular area. But we try to get people who are living in the area more than by the town itself.

Mr. Santos: Is it possible to get a picture if it is by area? I would like to see a listing of the members there and the area they are supposed to represent, if I can have that kind of information.

Mr. Reimer: Sure, we can get the list for the member. On that list, it will have the home towns of those individuals.

Mr. Santos: If possible, the area should be designated by the classification regional health authority, so I can correlate it with the distribution of population by regional health authority. The listing here, if I may be able to put this on the record, may I?

Regional health authorities in Manitoba: Marquette is recognized as one area, for example. Is there a representation on the Council on Aging from Marquette? There were 7,400-and-something seniors there.

Mr. Reimer: We do have someone in that particular area, yes. We can co-ordinate that for you, if you like.

Mr. Santos: Do you have the listing right with you or not?

Mr. Reimer: We can get that listing for you.

Mr. Santos: Because we can ask one particular area and then ask how many members from that area. In Winnipeg, for example, the largest, 88,000 seniors, how many from Winnipeg are sitting on the Manitoba Council on Aging?

Mr. Reimer: About half.

Mr. Santos: One half.

Mr. Reimer: Yes.

Mr. Santos: That is not reasonable, because it corresponds with the population distribution. Central, which is classified Central, there are 13,000 seniors from Central. I do not know what area is covered by Central. How many will be from Central on the Council on Aging?

Mr. Reimer: I have to admit to the member that a lot of the times I do not know where the towns in Manitoba are located, you know, by their names. I think what we can do is when we are referring to the various regions that the member has before us, what we can do is when we give the list for the member, then we can correlate the names to the regions. As much as I have lived in Manitoba all my life, still a lot of times when people mention towns' names I just do not know where they are at times, or the regions themselves, I should say–well, both, regions and towns.

Mr. Santos: Maybe I will take some territory which is familiar, South Westman, if they are represented on the Council on Aging.

Mr. Reimer: Yes, that would be the representative from Brandon.

Mr. Santos: What about southeast Manitoba, Eastman?

Mr. Reimer: We have someone, I believe, from Steinbach or Niverville. Niverville I think it is.

Mr. Santos: Is there any representative from the Interlake?

Mr. Reimer: Yes, one from Gimli.

Mr. Santos: All I am driving at here is whether these are truly representative, because this provides the Minister responsible for Seniors with information, with consultation, with all these things, and unless the areas are evenly represented they cannot speak for all of Manitoba.

I am going on now with what is happening in this province. In November 1996, the present government in power withdrew its $27,000 annual grant to the Creative Retirement Manitoba. This program is an organization which serves approximately a thousand seniors. They spend approximately $100,000 in seniors programs annually. The contribution of the province is $27,000, and it withdrew its contribution. Is there any plan to restore some of this?

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Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, I should point out right from the outset that the grant that was given to Creative Retirement came from the Education department.

It did not come from our department or the Seniors Directorate department, it came from Education. I believe at the time when Education stopped supplying the grant that there was a couple of years of transition where they knew that the program funding was going to be eliminated. Since that time, I think Creative Retirement has been given some programs and some funding, program funding through MPIC to do a program for what they call the 55 Alive program. It is a program that MPI is running. They are now getting some funding through that avenue. But the Seniors Directorate was not a funding source for Creative Retirement.

Mr. Santos: Mr. Chairperson, the minister will appreciate now why I have been butting and arguing that the Seniors Directorate, as a department of government, should be a source of funding and not rely on other departments, because if it were the one that is involved in making these grants to Creative Retirement Manitoba, in times of scarcity can we draw the grant like it has happened, but in times of economic prosperity as we thought the province now is on a start leading to that kind of economic performance in this province, then it can again restore it. But since it came from the Department of Education, what can the Seniors Directorate do?

So all the more there should be some kind of reorganization in government where all the programs directly affecting seniors should be funded from Seniors Directorate, and all the other departments, huge as they are–it will be, more or less, efficient, effective and responsive if these programs are transferred to Seniors Directorate. What would the minister say to that, to his colleagues in cabinet?

Mr. Reimer: A lot of what the member for Broadway is saying is true in the sense that there is a need for the co-ordination of information and programming and the emphasis as to the benefits of seniors and in regard to the programming funding and the source of it. I think what comes into prevalence, though, is because there is sometimes a specialization of concerns in regard to say the education portion of programming, that there is a component of seniors, the accountability and the direction is more adequate to be served through an educational component. There is still that consultation process available by the department to the Seniors Directorate for the information and for the guidance that we would put into any type of analysis that Education is working with in regard to, say, creative retirement. So there is still that linkage in their contact.

I can see also funding of a certain nature possibly going through some of the other programming departments, like Family Services, where the uniqueness of certain conditions or situations in regard to seniors would fall within the Family Services portfolio and their purview of dealing with seniors. I can see that happening too. But, there, again, I think there is always that overview made by, say, the Department of Family Services to the Seniors Directorate for an awareness program and/or a direction program.

So I believe that there is a mechanism that is working there now, and there is always, like I said earlier, room for improvement as to being more proactive in the sharing of information and looking for the benefits that this information can generate. So those are some of the things, I think, that make it more of a positive initiative, not only by the department that is initiating the program but on the department, like the department of the Seniors Directorate, to respond to it. So the sharing of information is just as important as the direction of the programming and the funding towards the programming.

Mr. Santos: The minister may say that sharing information is good. Of course, it is good, but information by itself will not deliver the necessary services that seniors need unless the program that has the clout, that has the money, is able and willing to make such kind of assistance to seniors in need.

All I am saying is that co-ordination will be eliminated. All the manpower input needed to co-ordinate will now be devoted to carrying out substantive programs if this program is directly given to Seniors Directorate because the clients are seniors. Why go through the co-ordination and expend all this energy co-ordinating and sharing information if nothing in the end will happen because the discretion to grant or not to grant resides in somebody else's hand other than the minister's hand?

Mr. Reimer: With the transference of programming, I think that there is a lot of expertise that goes along with programming in various departments. I am thinking of the logistics of trying to co-ordinate some of the programming and some of the capabilities of other departments and how that could be transferred or duplicated if it was transferred to the responsibility of the Seniors Directorate. I think that those are some of the things that would have to be looked at very seriously, the logistics of redirecting programming and staff and the whole parameters of what the individuals are involved with in regard to say a seniors program in Health or a seniors program in Family Services or in Justice even. I think that those resources possibly may be disruptive in trying to transfer them all into one portfolio. I think there is a benefit to emphasize more of a co-ordinated action and a liaison between the departments so that there is awareness more than there is the transference of the total programming capabilities, like say to the Seniors Directorate.

If there is a closer co-ordination and a co-operation between say the Seniors Directorate and Family Services or the Seniors Directorate and Justice and the input capabilities by the Seniors Directorate to bring forth suggestions or changes, I think that is just as important as to have that type of capability as to say moving the program into the Seniors Directorate where the decision can be made. The decisions still can be made, and the decisions can be made through the host department, whether like I say it is Justice or Family Services, but the input and the direction that we would provide through the Seniors Directorate can have just as significant impact as to the outcome as if we had the final decision as to the programming itself.

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Mr. Santos: Just to demonstrate the efficacy of a transfer of a unit or a program, was it not a fact that the Manitoba Council on Aging was one time linked with the Ministry of Health?

Mr. Reimer: The member is right. At one time it was under the Health department, but as the concerns of seniors evolved it was transferred to the Seniors Directorate because the Council on Aging were then given the broader parameters of looking at all aspects of seniors problems other than just health because when it was the Council of Aging under the Health Department it was restricted to health initiatives.

Now, that Council on Aging, because it is redirected under the Seniors Directorate, has the ability to look at not only health issues but transportation issues, recreation issues, programming of different sports. So I think the Council on Aging now has a lot broader parameters to come forth with recommendations to government. Before it was singularly purposed for health issues and I think, as the member has alluded to, there are so many other things that are involved with seniors and their whole outlook to life and the directions that seniors want to go that it was felt that it should be under the Seniors Directorate because it then opens up a whole new scope of interpretations for them to come back to government and to the Minister responsible for Seniors for direction, so I think it was a better move to move it into the Seniors Directorate.

Mr. Santos: Mr. Chairperson, I cited this as a specific and concrete thing that had happened, and there is no problem of logistics that the minister is–all it needs is the readjustment of its jurisdiction, development and enlarging of its responsibilities. The same thing will happen in any other program that concerns seniors primarily. If that program is transferred substantially to Seniors Directorate, then it can grow and develop itself into a legitimate program of its own, and, of course, initially some of the expertise will have to go along with the program, in the same way that this happened with the Council on Aging. I do not see any problem with that. It just takes a little bit longer to make the necessary adjustments.

The government, like society, has different functions; like our body, it has different functions. The hand cannot be the feet. The feet are for walking; the hand is for grasping. Our digestive system cannot be the same thing as our circulatory system. The same thing in government. Everything is related to everything else, but there are some primary functions that should be concentrated with some agency and some entities that should primarily be responsible for it.

All I am saying here is that all of those programs scattered all over the various departments of government that primarily concern seniors and affect seniors primarily, should be within the Seniors Directorate. It may contract out the service to some of its delivery agencies, but when they affect seniors primarily, the money, the funding, the power, the jurisdiction should reside with Seniors Directorate.

Take an example, Pharmacare. As affecting seniors, it should be within the prerogative of the department of Seniors Directorate. Whatever changes it may want to implement with respect to that program, the input should be coming from seniors, passing through such agencies like Council on Aging, and then the implementation and the decision should be made by Seniors Directorate. If you rely primarily on the Ministry of Health, they have other concerns other than seniors. There will be no focus, no efficiency, no effectivity, no responsiveness. All your advice, all your sharing comes to nought if it can conflict with other priorities of the Department of Health.

An Honourable Member: Such as.

Mr. Santos: Let us say Pharmacare. They want to broaden or to cap some of the listings in these eligible items in Pharmacare. Who should determine that one? Those who use those kinds of medications, seniors, and they will give the advice to the Council on Aging. The Council on Aging will give it to the minister. The decision will be in the minister's hands, not with the Minister of Health. That is just an example because it has happened already with this Council on Aging.

Now, let us look to another thing that we can cite as an example for the purpose of time. In August 1997, St. Boniface General Hospital launched a fundraising campaign to raise $12.6 million, purportedly for a research centre dedicated to health research on aging. The provincial government had pledged $2 million towards this project. Is that pledge carried out or not?

Mr. Reimer: I have got to admit, I do not know. I imagine that we would have to find out and get back to the member for that. We can do that, though.

Mr. Santos: Mr. Chairperson, in June 1997, the same month, the current government in power launched a program called Through Other Eyes, a workshop designed to help Manitoba businessmen better accommodate the needs of the aging population.

My question is how is that being implemented now? Is there anything that is going on in the Seniors Directorate related to that?

Mr. Reimer: The program has shown to be quite beneficial actually for the people who have taken the course. The course is set up in a way that what we do is there are certain restrictions that are put on people to get the sense that they are seniors, like weights on their arms or working with gloves or glasses that have Vaseline smeared on them a bit to give a bit of a fuzzy appearance when they look through them, weights on their ankles, and put through various experiences of dealing with the public as a senior would feel.

We have put on programs with the Royal Bank. We have put on programs with Eaton's. We have put on some of the programs with our own departments that are involved with seniors. Like my Housing department, we have put on this program so that people will come out. They have an awareness of what it feels like to be a senior in certain situations. So that way when these people are dealing with seniors, there is an empathy brought into their decision making so that they have an awareness what seniors are feeling or what they are up against.

There has been mailers that go out to the businesses, advising of this programming. The Highways department has gone through this program because they deal a lot with seniors. We have had good response from it. It is put on by an individual that has good acceptance.

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Mr. Santos: Mr. Chairperson, there might be mailings and all these reminders, but how does the department, the Seniors Directorate, measure the impact, the effect of this on the actual behaviour and attitude of the businesses and other deliverers of services?

Mr. Reimer: We have actually had fairly good positive feedback from the associations that are putting it on. A good example was Eaton's store. When they started to go through the program, they realized that their signage could be done better, because they did not recognize that certain aspects of what the seniors see or the height of it is nonvaluable for Eaton's and their merchandising techniques and their abilities to service seniors.

I think that the feedback that we have from all the organizations that have gone back, the comment is made that we did not realize that this was the way these things turn out and that they have the ability to now, like I say, put themselves into position and it has made a difference. It has made a difference to every group that has taken these programs.

Mr. Santos: Mr. Chairperson, in August 1997, the current government cut funding to the Support Services to Seniors Program. This program was designed to assist the frail and at-risk seniors so that they could maintain an independent-living style even if they wished to stay in their respective homes.

Then in May 1998, the same government announced it would reinvest $445,900 into the Support Services to Seniors for the development of some 26 new projects and for the expansion of some 32 pre-existing projects. How many of these projects are directly under the control of the Seniors Directorate?

Mr. Reimer: The funding for the Support Services to Seniors was actually reinstated–not reinstated; it was not cut–but it was added to because there was a bunch on the waiting list that we wanted to get the funding to before the RHAs took them over. The funding through that flowed through the Health department.

Mr. Santos: Mr. Chairperson, I would like the minister to make one commitment that he will fight cabinet and his colleagues that all those programs directly affecting seniors, their welfare, their concern, should be as much as possible concentrated in his own department, and if he can make that commitment here, we will pass these Estimates.

Mr. Reimer: What I can make a commitment to the member for Broadway is that the programs, any efforts that can be done to make things better for seniors, whether it is through cabinet decisions or caucus decisions or something like that, will be actively pursued by myself, because as the member for Broadway knows, seniors are very, very important. The co-ordination of activities a lot of times get lost in the shuffle. That is something that we in the directorate do not like to see, and that is something that we are trying to eliminate as much as possible.

Mr. Santos: Mr. Chairperson, 88,000 seniors are a sizeable segment of the population. It could affect elections, so the minister should do the best he can to please this segment of the population. They are a powerful group, and I think he should always bear that in mind.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Rocan): Item 24.1. Seniors Directorate (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $523,600–pass; (b) Other Expenditures $403,600–pass.

Resolution 24.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $927,200, for Seniors Directorate, Seniors Directorate, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2000.

24.2. Amortization of Capital Assets $1,800–pass.

Resolution 24.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,800 for Seniors Directorate, Amortization of Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2000.

This concludes the department of Estimates for the Seniors Directorate. I want to thank the minister and the critic.

The hour being 6 p.m., committee rise.