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Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Energy and Mines.

When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 23.2. Energy and Mineral Resources (d) Geological Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 59 of the Main Estimates book. Shall the item pass?

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): I would like to ask a series of questions on orphan mine sites. We had some questions coming forward from the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) which raised additional questions, obviously, about the number of orphan mine sites that we have in Manitoba. Perhaps the minister can clarify how many orphan mine sites there are in Manitoba and what the government is proposing to do to rehabilitate Manitoba's landscape.

Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): The Manitoba orphan mine sites rehabilitation program identified four orphan sites as requiring rehabilitation and a further number of site engineering studies at other locations. Funding of those sites, rehabilitation and the studies was estimated at $1.61 million. The program was seen to be a three-year program. Required resources to staff the program would include one full-time employee and an operating budget of $10,000 per annum. This is an item that we will attempt to secure support for through the Estimates process until we get the necessary funding support for this initiative.

Ms. Mihychuk: The minister just indicated that we are attempting to get funding. Is this program or this personnel identified in this Estimates book, or are you suggesting the year following? Or are we looking for an additional allocation to Energy and Mines to cover this program?

Mr. Newman: The total program would require approval, either through future fiscal year Estimates, budgetary processes, or on a step-by-step basis toward the ultimate objective on another mutually agreeable basis, to the extent funding permits from whatever source we can get the funding.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us what an orphan mine is? Four orphaned sites must be a specific definition of what an orphan site is, because there must be many, many more than four abandoned mine sites. I have had the opportunity, and I usually look forward to it, to rummaging through old mine sites, because it becomes kind of a collector's haven for geologists. There are some serious consequences to abandoned mines, so I am wondering what the minister means by "orphaned" versus "abandoned." Are we somehow making a definition, and what is that definition?

Mr. Newman: I dealt with this at some length with the honourable member for Flin Flon. However, the definition used for the purpose of the program that I describe defines the term as situations were abandoned mine sites in need of rehabilitation, where ownership had reverted to the Crown and where the mining company, or mining companies, responsible for the pollution and the contamination no longer exist as a viable entity against which effective recourse could be achieved.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister then tell us how many abandoned mine sites there are beyond those that have now been turned over back to Crown lands? Do we have an inventory of how many abandoned mine sites there are in Manitoba?

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Mr. Newman: Our department's inventory includes those that have been restored to the Crown or the Crown's responsibility because of the situation I described. We do not have that complete list of mining sites in need of rehabilitation, but presumably those would be sites identified and monitored by the Department of Environment.

Ms. Mihychuk: Is the minister satisfied that his Department of Mines does not know where the previous mining sites were? What I am trying to say here is surely the Department of Mines knows where extraction occurred in the metallic mineral industry. These are sites that people have worked there. There has been an economic spin-off. There has been all kind activity. It would be extremely important, I would assume, that the department know clearly where those mine sites are, whether they are on private land or on Crown land.

Mr. Newman: Of course we are concerned about any mining operations, inactive or active, that are contributing to contamination or are potentially orphaned contaminated sites, but there are different departmental responsibilities depending on the nature of the site in question. Where we have assumed leadership for strategic rehabilitation is where the Crown has assumed responsibility, because there is no one else to have recourse against. There is a public interest in having rehabilitation done as soon as possible, and a very specific interest by the Department of Energy and Mines to ensure that the image and reputation of the mining industry encourages investment in mining rather than discourages it.

It is a big question in these kinds of circumstances: who should pick up the costs of rehabilitation? It is the kind of thing which this government takes very seriously, and which the NDP government did not take very seriously, for example, in relation to Manfor and the environmental degradation that was allowed to prevail there for a long period of time and had to be cleaned up after government changed.

Ms. Mihychuk: My question to the minister was: does the Mines Branch know where the old mine sites were? That is a very specific question. I am not talking only or specifically about the environmental hazards, which are a serious concern, but old mine sites are also particularly important to prospectors, to the industry, to give a signal to those people that mining economic activity occurred there. They often occur in mineral belts. It is an important record to have, and it would be, needless to say, completely unsatisfactory that the Province of Manitoba would not know where every single mining site was and presumably know to some degree the status of those sites.

Mr. Newman: The answer is that the Energy and Mines department does have the capacity to list in whatever way is desired, desired reasonably and practically, sites that are mining sites or have been known mining sites in the province, active, inactive, orphan or nonorphan.

Ms. Mihychuk: Would the minister be prepared to provide that information?

Mr. Newman: Absolutely.

Ms. Mihychuk: Do the claim maps or the base maps that the department is now producing include information like former mine sites?

Mr. Newman: The claim maps do not show that. No.

Ms. Mihychuk: One of the things that I have heard about the new maps is that in fact they are missing a number of significant geological features that make it very difficult to use the maps in the field. So one of those things, particularly for people that use them, I guess, to stake claims in particular, would be the old mine sites, but I also understand that not necessarily all swamps are illustrated and other historic information that has been traditionally on topographic maps. Can the minister indicate what geological or physical features are now put on the maps that are produced by the Mines Branch?

Mr. Newman: I am assured by my staff that the kind of information you have expressed is available, but not all available on a claims map. From other maps, that information can be ascertained. If you were suggesting that there are complaints about this, you should have raised them with me or the department when you first heard them. It is the first I have heard about any of these issues, and my staff expresses to me it has not been an issue with the MELC committee either, which is the industry liaison committee.

Ms. Mihychuk: This was the earliest opportunity. I did not feel it was necessarily a subject that was worthy of Question Period, and sometimes you get comments from prospectors and others that are fairly broad ranging. This was one of the concerns that the maps did not include the detail that they had had previously. It takes some checking into, and I am sure the department will either confirm or not. I did not go and do an investigation of the map, so that is why the question came here to the minister.

It would seem to me to be vitally important to ensure that the claim maps do have all mining sites located accurately on the claim maps. I would ask the minister to make that assurance because of all the different significant aspects of old mining sites; they are particularly significant to those interested in claim maps and need to be accurately positioned on those maps.

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Mr. Newman: I hear what you say. That is your opinion; that is what you are suggesting. We will take that under advisement, see whether it is practical, sensible, necessary and desired by the industry. Some individuals have not kept up to date with the technological advances made in the department. They may very well not find it as convenient as everybody else to access the different information that is available readily through that means.

Judgments are made by people in the department day after day in this micromanagement kind of way that you are dealing. They will make judgments as to what is practical and desirable to have in particular maps. They have made a decision about this. Other ideas and views are welcome, and there are processes to advance those views. You do not have to do it in Question Period unless you want the theatre of Question Period.

If you want results, then obviously the members of the industry or whoever comes to you can, through a letter or suggestion, raise these things with the department, and they are entitled to an informed answer. If the answer is not reasonable or informed, then ultimately the course should be brought to the attention of senior people in department; failing appropriate action, ultimately to me. That is the way the process should work in the public interest unless there is a desire simply to make politics out of things on a public stage rather than to get results.

Mr. Newman: I am advised that the site you are describing is an example of the kind of site where probably there is not liability on anyone because standards have changed over the years.

There are issues of aesthetics and effective use of that site which are a matter of discussion between our department and Culture, Heritage and Citizenship because of the history of this site with a view to determining whether it should be declared an historic site and the subject matter of investment in improving it for the sake of showing greater respect for the history and providing tourism and public enjoyment opportunities in the area.

Ms. Mihychuk: So in the case of Herb Lake, has the department done some water sampling, or is there some assurance that there is not leachates from that stockpile? How do we know that that site has no environmental or other implications?

Mr. Newman: This would be something within the purview and mandate of the Department of Environment.

Ms. Mihychuk: What type of relationship occurs between the Mines Branch and the Department of Environment to identify all these old mine sites?

There must be a process developed, because if it is now the responsibility of the Department of Environment to go and test all these old mine sites, they have to know where they are. I am wondering what type of committee or liaison there is because it will have to be a very close relationship, I would think, between the Mines Branch and Environment.

Mr. Newman: There are two ways that that happens. One, there is an ongoing relationship between the Department of Environment and Mines department. Also, wherever there are communities that are the responsibility of Northern Affairs, there is water monitoring that goes on because that water is the drinking water for those communities in many cases.

So through the relationship and through sharing of information and through the concerns of the mayor and councils that have a responsibility for local government in those communities to be aware of these kinds of things, to the extent they do not get satisfaction as mayor and council, the Minister of Northern Affairs and the whole hierarchy under that minister have the ultimate responsibility for the well-being of those communities.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us where the four orphan sites that were identified are? He has a number of other sites he said that were on the list. Is there some sort of information that he can provide as to which sites are being declared as orphaned or being examined for that purpose?

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Mr. Newman: The four orphan sites can be described as Sherlett Creek-Sherridon, that is, Sherlett Creek and Sherridon mine site; Baker Patton; Snow Lake; Gods Lake; and Lynn Lake.

Ms. Mihychuk: When the minister talked about orphan sites, he indicated that there were four identified sites and a number of others under consideration. Can the minister explain what he means by that?

Mr. Newman: The old Sherritt Gordon site is the one that I was alluding to in that comment. In that particular case, the successor owner is being pursued and discussions are taking place with that successor owner.

Ms. Mihychuk: Just to conclude on Geological Services, there is the MELC committee, Mineral Exploration Liaison Committee. Can the minister indicate who are the representatives on that committee?

Mr. Newman: The committee structure is as follows: five representatives from the Mining Association of Manitoba, chosen by them; two representatives from the Manitoba Prospectors & Developers, chosen by them; two representatives from the Manitoba-Saskatchewan Prospectors & Developers, chosen by them; one representative of the Prospectors & Developers Association of Canada, chosen by them; one ex officio member from the University of Manitoba Geology, Geography departments; and one ex officio member representing the Geological Survey of Canada provincial liaison.

The nonvoting members include the directors of the Mines Branch, Geological Services Branch and the Marketing Branch.

Ms. Mihychuk: Would the minister be prepared to table the individuals who represent those organizations?

Mr. Newman: Yes. As a matter of fact, I can give it to you right now if you want.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us how often this committee meets?

Mr. Newman: The terms of reference for the mineral exploration liaison committee provide that meetings shall be scheduled twice annually. That is regarded as a minimum. This past year they have met four times.

Ms. Mihychuk: I just have two other areas I want to conclude, and I do not think it will take very long. I do want to ask a few questions on the Mining Reserve Fund and some questions on Industry Support Programs.

Mr. Newman: Maybe just to keep this in order, by the way, if you want to leave me time before the day is out, I could give you the responses to the undertakings we have made so far so that you can have a complete set of answers. With respect to the composition of the committee, Jamie Robertson is the chair; Ed Huebert, Ed Yarrow, Steve Masson, Rick Somerville, our representative of the Mining Association, Bill Burbidge and Ed Sawitzky of Manitoba-Saskatchewan Prospectors and Developers Association, and John Lee and Doug Fogwill of the MPDA.

Ms. Mihychuk: In terms of the Mining Reserve Fund, I do not intend to go through the same debate that we had last year; we have a fundamental difference of opinion on this one. I would like to ask the minister how much we have in the fund at this time and how much we have expended over the past year.

Mr. Newman: The uncommitted balance is, in rough figures, $18,700,000. The second answer is paid out of the fund in the last fiscal year, $1,248,366.70.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us what plans are being established for this fiscal year? Are we looking at projects where we are going to be using the Mining Reserve Fund?

Mr. Newman: The five-year projected cash flow shows that the projected revenue for the current fiscal year of 1999-2000 is $750,000. The expenditures out of the fund over the fiscal year projected to include the education support levy, $130,000; the Prospectors Assistance Program, $125,000; the Sherridon tailings rehabilitation, $8,300 for the Sherridon tailings; the transfer to support the MEAP program, $2 million; and $14,400 supporting the trailer subdivision in the community of Bissett; the support for the Economic Development officer position in the town of Lynn Lake, $65,000; and other undefined projects, projected $200,000; and for total projected expenditures of $2,542,700.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister clarify: is there an onus on the department to report where the funds are coming from in the Estimates book? Because when we look at industry support programs there is no indication here that $2 million is coming from the Mining Reserve Fund for the MEAP out of the 2.75 that is allocated, and that the 125,000 allocated for the Prospectors Program is also coming from the Mining Reserve Fund.

Mr. Newman: The accountant at the table says it is recorded as revenue.

Ms. Mihychuk: That is the trouble, obviously not an expert in accounting, so it is recorded as revenue in the budget, I guess, where it is identified as money being transferred from the Mining Reserve Fund. I would assume that is how it goes, and since Estimates is the detailed expenditures, revenue is not identified. Is that correct?

Mr. Newman: That is correct.

Ms. Mihychuk: The industry support programs, I see that there is a considerable drop in the amount being allocated for these programs. One is because of the petroleum, which I fully endorse, and it did not come soon enough, in my opinion, but we also see that the Exploration Assistance Program is down somewhat. Is that related to the take-up, or are we looking at a reduction in the amount of support for the MEAP program?

Mr. Newman: The differential showing between the last fiscal year and this fiscal year is reflected by the creation of the Specialty Minerals Incentive Program where $250,000 was allocated for that initiative.

Ms. Mihychuk: The specialty minerals. There was an indication earlier in the Estimates process that aggregate material would be eligible for this program. Is that correct?

Mr. Newman: If I gave that impression, I did not intend to. That is not correct.

Ms. Mihychuk: What specialty minerals are identified as qualifying under this program?

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Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us what programs he has established, or what policies, to deal with the assurance that government money is being spent, taxpayer money is being spent, appropriately? I think there was a reference in the minister's comments that inspections were done. Can the minister elaborate as to what types of accountability there is for the assistance programs that are administrated by this department?

Mr. Newman: To ensure the accountability and integrity of the MEAP program, the Department of Energy and Mines, along with the Department of Finance, Internal Audit, developed audit procedures. A 100 percent review of the company's application for payment, including the review of receipts and invoices and the report of work prior to issuing payment of assistance funds is undertaken for all projects.

Internal Audit conducts company office audits on randomly selected projects, totalling 20 percent of the assistance dollars paid during the fiscal year. To date, a total of 10 audits have been completed with the internal auditor from the Department of Finance, representing over $1.1 million or 27 percent of $4.3 million of assistance paid. Audits for the '98-99 fiscal year will be scheduled in December 1999.

With respect to inspections to ensure the accountability and integrity of the program, the department has dedicated a geologist to conduct onsite inspections. Inspections are conducted on randomly selected projects totalling 30 percent of the approved assistance or upon request by a company or individual. To date, a total of 33 project inspections have been conducted, representing over $2.5 million or 37 percent of $6.9 million of assistance paid. For the fiscal year '98-99, 21 projects, representing over $1.7 million of the over $4.4 million allocated assistance were inspected.

Ms. Mihychuk: The Exploration Assistance Program was created to spur on additional exploration. Can the minister indicate what projections look like for the '99 field season? I know most industry exploration has actually been completed by now. Are we seeing industry take up the program? Are we seeing an increase in the amount of exploration?

The actual amount of exploration in Manitoba has not significantly increased, and we have not hit our heyday of the past, even though we are providing incentives. The minister knows that I have been basically supportive of the incentive program, have some concerns about accountability, and I see that the department has made some adjustments to that.

Can the minister just give us an overview of the exploration trends in Manitoba, what we have seen last year and what we are seeing, like I say, we probably have an indication of this year already, and what we see as the future for Manitoba?

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Mr. Newman: The 1997 expenditures were on exploration $40,279,000. The 1998, not yet final but still treated as estimated figures, are $29,969,000, and the 1999 forecast is $28,347,000. That means there was a reduction '97 to '98, subject to those figures not being final, of 25.6 percent as compared to a reduction in New Brunswick of 29 percent; Ontario, 29.5 percent; British Columbia, a reduction of 48.5 percent; Yukon, a reduction of 62 percent; a reduction in Northwest Territories of 25 percent; and a total Canada reduction of 26 percent.

The percent of the Canadian total in Manitoba was 4.91 percent in 1997, in 1998 that increased marginally to 4.98 percent, and projections for 1999 would show that Manitoba's percentage, as against all of the similarly forecasted expenditures in the other jurisdictions, would be 5.8 percent of the Canadian total. So what that tells us is that we are relative to other jurisdictions more than maintaining, we are increasing the proportion of investment dollars that are spent in Canada and we would give credit to MEAP as being a significant factor in inducing that expenditure level.

Ms. Mihychuk: I am sure that the minister did not deliberately omit our other western provinces. We know that B.C. has, I would say, some improvements it could do in the mining sector, and I would be working to change the climate in B.C. But I am interested in finding out also about Alberta and Saskatchewan. I know Saskatchewan has initiated many programs and their last budget was very mining friendly, and they introduced a number of tax incentives and other programs so I would be interested in knowing some of the other jurisdictions and would ask the minister to table that information if that is possible to give us that information.

Mr. Newman: Certainly I am prepared to share with you the complete list, if you wish, but specifically in Saskatchewan in 1997, given particularly the potash and uranium resources in Saskatchewan. Expenditure 1997 in Saskatchewan was $49,933,000; estimated for 1998 $48,879,000; and projected for 1999 $28,702,000, a reduction of 41.28 percent in Saskatchewan. The explanation for that in the briefing note that I have prepared as of June 8, 1999, is amongst other things that Saskatchewan has been impacted by significant cutbacks in the exploration and development expenditures by the uranium sector.

With respect to Alberta in 1997 $20,470,000; estimated 1998 $24,763,000; and 1999 forecasted $21,961,000, for a reduction of 11.32 percent. The comment about the various changes is that companies focusing on gold and diamond exploration have been hit harder than their counterparts in the base metal segment of the industry. I have already commented in the uranium sector, but it is all related to the current depressed base and precious metal prices, weak market demand, particularly from Asia, and the flight of investment and speculative dollars from the commodities markets.

Exploration and mining companies are having difficulty raising or allocating monies for their exploration projects. Total Canadian exploration expenditures for the '98-99 period are forecast to drop by over 40.4 percent from the 1997 levels. The impact on the various jurisdictions depends on the mix of minerals that are being explored for and whether exploration is driven by junior companies that are currently having the greatest difficulty raising exploration capital or senior companies that are currently staying away from going to the marketplace for any equity financing.

Ms. Mihychuk: I want to just conclude by thanking the staff for coming out and being patient and co-operating and providing as many answers as possible and thank the minister for allowing a free-ranging discussion on the Estimates and wish to just conclude the Energy and Mines Estimates.

Resolution 23.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $9,493,400 for Energy and Mines, Energy and Mineral Resources, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2000.

Resolution 23.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,563,100 for Energy and Mines, Industry Support Programs, for the fiscal year ending the 31st of March, 2000.

Resolution 23.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $224,100 for Energy and Mines, Amortization of Capital Assets.

The last item to consider for the Estimates of the Department of Energy and Mines is item 23.1 Administration and Finance (a) Minister's Salary $13,500.

Mr. Newman: Is this the appropriate time to provide the answers to those undertakings? I will do it as quickly as I can.

How much did the mining convention cost in staff time and dollars? The expenditures for the conference were $127,357; the revenue was $118,000. So Energy and Mines contributed $9,357 because of that shortfall. There were sponsorship dollars and so forth, as well as registrations. The total staff days were 585.58, which is the equivalent of 2.25 staff years. An approximate salary value to that was $110,000. The convention working group consisted of eight members.

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In October 1998, permission was granted to Education and Training to adapt material from rocks, minerals and mining to include in a new educational support document entitled The Prairie Tour, a Grade 5 integrated unit for teachers. Provisions for the material requested for adaptation were provided by Energy and Mines. The publication is slated for release this fall. The contact person is Susan Letkemann, publication editor of Program Development Branch, Education and Training.

Science curriculum, Education and Training. The new science curriculum will be completed by the spring of 2000 where geology and mining are incorporated in a new science curriculum. Grade 4 rocks and minerals unit is complete; Grade 7, mining and geology, with the focus on a Manitoba mining and sustainable development unit to be completed by fall of 1999. Education and Training is looking at providing references to related support materials developed by other government or government-related organizations as part of the curriculum package. It is anticipated that these materials could be referenced as additional resources without going through the formal review process. Relevant materials developed by Energy and Mines could be included. There is also the opportunity to update rocks, minerals and mining to fit with the new Grade 7 science curriculum. Energy and Mines would be receiving a copy of the new unit this fall.

So that is the current status of mining-geology components for the public school curriculum.

Next question, did the department hold any energy workshops in northern Manitoba in the 1999 Home Energy Saver Workshop? There was a workshop at the ANAF Hall in Thompson and one in the Kikiwak Inn which is, of course, on the OCN First Nations reserve.

In the 1999 New Home Workshop, there was a workshop at the Victoria Inn in Flin Flon, and the Kikiwak Inn, again OCN First Nations, The Pas, and in Swan River region.

What was the Energy Branch staff level in 1988? It was 24 full-time employees, and it was that same number for 1989-90. It increased to 27 in 1990-91 and went back to 24 in 91-92, and then in successive years went down: 16 in '92-93; in '93-94, 16; '94-95, 15; '95-96, 15; '96-97, 9; '97-98, 9; '98-99, 11. That is the number for this next year.

How many R-2000 homes are there in Manitoba, and the locations in northern Manitoba? Prior to 1995, that is before Energy and Mines administered the program, there were 19 R-2000 homes built. All were Manitoba Hydro homes in Gillam. Since 1995, the R-2000 Home Program, delivered by Energy and Mines, 38 homes were built. Homes are located in the following communities: The Pas, 8; Gillam, 23; Swan River, 14; Thompson, 11; South Indian Lake, 1. Total R-2000 homes built and registered in northern Manitoba, 57.

Next question: what royalty revenues were generated by quarry minerals in the last fiscal year? Casual permit royalties, '98-99, $166,500; quarry lease royalties, '98-99, $289,200. So the total royalties in '98-99, casual permit and quarry lease, were $455,700, which I might say as compared to '96-97, $552,600; '97-98, $469,200; and estimated '99-2000, $482,000.

Where will the aboriginal students hired as field assistants be deployed within the province this summer? Geological Services Branch has hired four aboriginal students for geological assistance this summer who are scheduled to have two students in the Thompson Nickel Belt. One of these students will be carrying out a mapping project that will form the basis for his Bachelor of Science thesis at Brandon University. One student will be working primarily in the Mafeking area. One student will be working in Winnipeg, assisting with sample preparation procedures.

Pits and quarries in Manitoba. An active pit is a Crown or private pit quarry where industrial minerals are removed on a regular basis and based on consumer demand. An inactive pit is a Crown or private pit quarry with an undepleted supply of industrial minerals, and removal occurs sporadically over many years. There are approximately 5,000 Crown and private pit and quarries in Manitoba. Approximately 10 percent, that is 500-plus, are located in northern Manitoba north of the 53rd parallel. Approximately 28 percent or 1400 pit quarry locations are in operation during the Manitoba construction season in a year. Approximately 75 pit quarry locations are in the Capital Region of Manitoba.

Correcting a response given yesterday regarding the number of geologist staff years that will be applied to work in various regions of the province: Southern Manitoba should have been 5.9 staff years rather than 8.8. The breakdown of staff years by region: Flin Flon-Snow Lake, 5.2 staff years; Thompson Nickel Belt, 4.5 staff years; Lynn Lake, Leaf Rapids, 1.65 staff years; southeastern Manitoba, 0.83 staff years; Northern Superior province, 4.5 staff years; Southern Manitoba, 5.9, rather than 8.8 staff years, for a total of 22.58 staff years.

That answers, I believe, all the undertakings.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): I thank the minister for that.

Then, again, the last item to be considered for the Estimates of the Department of Energy and Mines is item 23.1. Administration and Finance (a) Minister's Salary $13,500. I believe the staff is in the process of leaving. Shall the item pass? The item is accordingly passed.

Resolution 23.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,349,500 for Energy and Mines, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2000.

This concludes the Estimates of the Department of Energy and Mines.

We will now be proceeding with Family Services. We will be taking a short recess in order to get the members present at the table.

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