Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Would the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply will be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Sport. Would the minister's staff please enter the Chamber at this time.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I can see the minister shuffling through his papers over there. I wonder if he has any more information for me. I am still waiting for him to provide me with a number of documents, including the departmental expenditures above and beyond the existing Pan Am Games allotments as well as the Crown corporation's contributions. We have taken the time to do a little bit of review of the Public Accounts to try and determine this on our own. I will ask the minister some questions about those figures, but I am wondering if the minister can start off with tabling any other documents for me.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Sport): Rather than read this into the record, I have a couple of copies of just a brief memo on a couple of issues that the member asked about. The first one is the whole issue of participation in the Pan Am Games, the countries, the notification time and so on, Mr. Chairman. I have two copies of a memo on that issue that I will table. It talks about the process for the national Olympic committee to participate in the Games, and it outlines in detail the information on that issue.

I also have two copies of information on the Pan Am Games advertising and promotion ticket sales campaign that the member asked about.

Madam Chair, the member also asked about the visit of Her Royal Highness to the Games, and I am told that very early in the planning stages of the Pan Am Games, the Games Society extended a written invitation to Her Royal High-ness The Princess to attend. An early response indicated this invitation would be considered and a positive reply has since been received. Pan American Games Society staff were assigned to develop a proposed program for Her Royal Highness which has been conveyed to the royal household for consideration. The Pan Am Games Society will be able to confirm Her Highness's program once all of the information is confirmed with the palace. We have seen some coverage in the media in the last few days. All costs for the visit have been arranged through the Pan Am Games Society, but I am told that the federal government is providing a jet to and from England to transport Her Royal Highness and that they are also covering the security costs related to her visit and that hotel accommodation has been provided by the government of Manitoba. I think that gives a summary of some of the questions of the royal visit.

In terms of the issue about expenditures from other departments, we are canvassing all of the departments to be sure that we do not miss anything in terms of any departments that might have an expenditure that relates to the Pan Am Games. We do not have that information yet. We discussed some that we are aware of yesterday, issues like the retention pond, issues like the Birds Hill Park. If the member has any specific questions from other parts of the Estimates process, I welcome those. We are still waiting for the final information from the Crown corporation.

Ms. Cerilli: Madam Chair, I am wondering if the minister can confirm that I will get that information from him prior to the Games. I know that in the past you have given me responses in writing to questions, but I often get it quite a bit after the fact. So I am interested in seeing what kind of time commitment the minister will make in terms of the turnaround on getting the additional information, if I will get that prior to the end of the session.

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Mr. Stefanson: I think, if I understood correctly, the member asked if she would get this information prior to the end of the session. Is that–of course, neither one of us know when that might be unless she has an indication she can share with me, but having said that, we have started the process on both. Certainly within the government, that is an area within our degree of control, so to speak. I do not expect that will take very long. Crown corporations are independent to a certain extent, but I also do not anticipate any problem getting that information. So I would expect that that information should be able to be available before we are out of session, Madam Chair.

Ms. Cerilli: I would appreciate that. Maybe I can be more specific with saying before the end of June would be maybe a better way of phrasing it.

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Chair, I fully expect we can provide that information before the end of June. If I cannot, I will certainly explain to the member why I cannot.

Ms. Cerilli: Picking up on one of the other responses the minister just provided me with, since I asked these questions there has been an article in the Free Press with some details about Princess Anne and her visit. I just want to confirm a couple of things. The minister has said that the hotel for Princess Anne as well as for her entourage, for lack of a better word, is being paid for by the government of Manitoba. I am just wanting a dollar figure for that amount and the line that that is coming from. That is outside the Pan Am Games budget, I am assuming.

Mr. Stefanson: I am told that the estimated cost of hotel and other accommodation, and so on, is approximately $10,000. It is not a Sport expenditure. I will confirm for the member the funding source for that $10,000.

Ms. Cerilli: I am not sure if the minister, in his comments, I did not take note of it, has given a total dollar figure for the Princess Anne visit. The information I had been told was that it was approximately a million dollars, if that is accurate or not. I appreciate the minister has described that as being borne through a number of different partners. But all the other outstanding issues the minister has confirmed is that it was the Games Society that put forward the invitation. He has not said it, but it seems like that is not following the protocol which, as it has been described to me, is it is supposed to be the federal government, through the Governor General probably, through their office, to invite members of the Royal Family. Can he confirm that is the case?

Mr. Stefanson: Well, I have outlined for the member the information that I have been provided by the Pan Am Games Society in terms of what role they played for the royal visit. Whether that is traditional protocol, I could not say. I am not an expert on protocol. I am certainly prepared to look into the issue of protocol, but the information that I provided the member today is directly from the Pan Am Games Society, so I am certainly prepared to look into that issue further, Madam Chair.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, I appreciate that. Just to clarify then, what is the budget line for the princess, and it is all coming out of the festival's or ceremonies' line?

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Mr. Stefanson: Madam Chair, well, the information that I have been provided is, as I have said, the transportation costs of getting the princess here are being paid for by the federal government, the security costs are being paid for by the federal government, and her accommodation costs here in Manitoba are being paid for by the provincial government. I am told there are no additional expenses for the Pan Am Games Society, but I will confirm that one more time to be absolutely certain that we are not missing anything in terms of any costs that the Pan Am Games Society might be incurring relative to the royal visit.

Ms. Cerilli: We had left off yesterday discussing some aspects of the budget and as it related to the Pan Am Games agreement. One of the things I had inquired about earlier was to see if there was a more detailed overview available of the revenue lines. I know the earlier budgets had some more detail, but does the minister have more information to separate out–I guess we could do, subtract the ticket target revenue and figure out what that sponsorship line would be on its own. It looks like then it would be about $20 million. Is that correct that the sponsorship, corporate sponsorship, is going to be about $20 million?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Chair, I believe the member is correct. As we have discussed, the projected ticket revenue is $13 million. That line item under the revised business plan, it actually remains the same under both business plans that the member has, the previous plan and the revised one that she received in the last day or so. So there is total revenue of $33,701,000, and if you take out the ticketing revenue of $13 million, you are left with approximately $20 million from sponsorship.

Ms. Cerilli: The member for Inkster actually wants to get in here and ask a question. I am so accommodating.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Chairperson, just one quick question. I was actually having a discussion with an individual in regard to the Pan Am Games. I thought it might be appropriate to make a statement, and if the Minister of Sport wants to respond to it, he can feel free to respond.

The Grey Cup festivities were a huge success in the province, and I do not think anyone would question the hard work and effort that so many people put into place in order to make it happen. There was one concern that was raised and that was in terms of the stands and the cost of the tickets for the Grey Cup game. Now the reason why I bring that up is because at the very last minute, they tried to resolve that particular issue in different ways. At the end of the day, it was felt that had they addressed the issue earlier there would have been more people in the stands for the Grey Cup.

I bring that up because that was the example that was used in reference to the opening ceremonies of the Pan Am Games. From what I understand and from what I have been told, the tickets for the opening ceremonies are nowhere near what expectations would have been given the importance of the opening ceremonies or the kick-off are to the Games. The single biggest impediment, again from what I am being told, is the cost of these tickets. The question to the government is more so no doubt they are monitoring what is happening with respect to the opening ceremonies indirectly or directly, and I am sure are involved in some capacity whether it is through direct influence or possibly the preparation itself for the opening ceremonies.

The concern is if there is a problem with ticket sales for the opening of the ceremonies, is the committee working today trying to resolve that in a substantial way or is it the intention to see a number of the seats just closed off in a similar fashion, I understand, that the Grey Cup was done where there would have been more seats available because of the limited number of tickets sold? It is more to raise a bit of a red flag, acknowledging that there is a potential situation. Is the government aware of it and is the government going to be taking any sort of direct or indirect action to address that particular concern?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Chairman, I thank the member for Inkster for that question. From the very outset, I believe the Pan Am Games Society have been very cognizant of the whole issue of pricing and pricing the venues appropriately and ensuring that they are not overpriced and that they are affordable for individuals or families and so on. If the member has not had a chance to see the detailed ticket guide, it does outline all of the individual prices for different venues, being anywhere in the $10, $15, $18, $20 range for individual venues. He is right that for the opening ceremonies the ticket prices there are the more expensive tickets of the entire event, in the range of anywhere from $50 to $135. Again, I am told that is pretty consistent pricing with opening ceremonies for similar events and that the Pan Am Games Society believes that it is not overpriced.

We discussed this whole issue of ticket sales because that is really the last major issue for the Games. They believe they can come in on budget on their expenditures. Obviously they are going to receive their government support, and they are going to hit their sponsorship targets and so on. The one outstanding issue is ticket sales. As at June 11, total direct revenue was about $5.9 million, representing 231,000 in ticket sales or 46 percent of their $13-million target. The Games organizers are optimistic that advance sales can reach 65 percent, which is their target, and it is anticipated that walk-up traffic will generate the remaining $4.5 million.

So, at this particular point in time, all information I have been provided from the Pan Am Games is they believe that their ticket sales target of $13 million is achievable, and it is achievable within the price range that they have established after doing an awful lot of review of appropriately pricing all of the venues. So that is the information we have. We believe that they can hit their targets and that they have taken that issue into consideration in the pricing of the Games.

Mr. Lamoureux: I do not want to claim to have the background information in terms of all the different venues that are being planned and being promoted; it is just the one major event of the opening of the ceremonies in which there has been some concern in terms of that particular venue being a sell-out. Would the minister actually have a number of available seats, for example, for the opening ceremonies, the number that have been sold? Can he give some sort of assurances as to how tickets are going on that specific event, or am I being too specific by posing that particular question and maybe he could just get back to us at another point in time?

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Mr. Stefanson: It is probably best I get back to the member. I have the information I provided on the overall ticket sales, but the detailed breakdown, particularly as it relates to the opening ceremonies, I will undertake to obtain that and get back to the member.

Mr. Lamoureux: I will not take any more time other than just to say that I raise the issue only because of concerns that have been expressed to me. I think that it is imperative that we do what we can in terms of assisting in a proactive way at ensuring in particular that the opening event is a very successful event, as I am sure it will be organizationally. We just want to see as many Manitobans enjoying that spectacular event as possible.

Thank you for the opportunity, and I thank the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) for letting me cut in at this point.

Ms. Cerilli: Maybe I will just pick up where the member for Inkster was asking questions because there are other articles in the paper today that discuss the issue of the lack of ticket sales for the opening and closing ceremonies. There have been other articles in the paper. I wonder if the minister can explain why the opening and closing ceremonies, the ticket prices are so much more than some of the other events. I think that he made reference to the cost too. The article that I am looking at says between $35 and $135 apiece. That is a lot of money to spend for the ceremonies. I know the amount of time that is being invested. There are school groups and all sorts of organizations that are preparing for the ceremonies and learning dances and routines and all that. I am assuming that a lot of that work is volunteer. I do not know if the minister has more information about why it is that those prices for those tickets for the opening and closing ceremonies are so expensive.

Mr. Stefanson: I am really just being repetitive, Madam Chair. I will certainly ask for further background from the Pan Am Games, but I recall, I was there the day they launched their ticket sales. I know that their board and everybody associated have really tried to ensure that the overall Games are appropriately priced and are affordable, and so on. I think it is fairly common practice in major sporting events that your opening and closing ceremony tickets are the more expensive tickets. I am also told that these ticket prices are not out of line at all with opening ceremonies from other similar events held in Canada. I have provided information on an overall basis in terms of ticket sales that the Pan Am Games Society believe that they can achieve their overall target of $13 million. I agree with the comments from the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). I think we all want to see a full stadium at the opening and closing ceremonies.

I can certainly undertake to get some further information in terms of the basis of the pricing for those ceremonies, but I believe the Pan Am Games Society themselves spent an awful lot of time ensuring that all of the venues were appropriately priced and affordable.

Ms. Cerilli: Is there any truth to the claims in the Bartley Kives article in today's Free Press, I am assuming this is today's, I do not have the date on it, but it is suggesting that the lack of response to the ticket sales for the opening and closing ceremonies are causing the Pan Am Games such concern that they are trying to not promote the other free aspects of the Pan Am Games at this time because they are concerned that it may further keep people away from that sort of entertainment and performance aspect at the opening and closing ceremonies.

Mr. Stefanson: Well, Madam Chair, I happen to have scanned that same article the member is referring to. I think it might have been in yesterday's paper, if I recall. It has been in the last couple of days anyway. From my discussions and discussions of officials and information that I have been provided, I am not aware that there is any plan of that nature from the Pan Am Games Society. But I will certainly inquire of them about that issue.

Ms. Cerilli: Can the minister just refresh my memory? Who has the various contracts for the advertising and promotions and marketing for different aspects? I appreciate that you have given me this sort of overview of some of the advertising and promotion plan, and I must say that I remember being at the launch where they had Donovan Bailey at the launch of the ticket sales. I thought that was quite ingenious and having him answering the phone on the message machine. I also think I have said before I thought some of those kind of things were good and really positive.

But I am just wanting an explanation, before I get into some more details, about what various contracts there are for advertising and promotion of marketing and who has those contracts. If the minister has the kind of detail, the sort of dollar amounts that have been allocated for the marketing, those various contracts for marketing and advertising.

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Mr. Stefanson: Again, Madam Chair, the member is right. I think we discussed this, in part, in the past. I know going from memory that one firm that has done some advertising work, I believe is Palmer Jarvis. But I will undertake to obtain a listing for the member of who is doing the advertising work on behalf of the Games and certainly provide as much information as I can around that issue, depending on any issues of confidentiality and any agreements. But I will certainly undertake to provide whatever information I can relative to the costs and other aspects of the services they are providing.

Ms. Cerilli: Maybe the minister can explain how this works. The Pan Am Games Society has the ability to receive different proposals and bids. I know that they have gone through a couple of different staff in this whole area over the past couple of years. There has been some sort of controversy, I guess you would call it, with that whole process. But what I am wanting to understand is who actually is making the decisions? The Pan Am Games Society contracts with some of these professionals or experts, and they have come up with these different plans for how to target a promotion, where to target the advertising, what type of medium to use.

Does that actually get approved through the Pan Am Games Society? Is there some involvement there at that level, or basically are they just hiring these people that it is their professional work to do, advertising, marketing, and they basically accept what they recommend?

Mr. Stefanson: Well, again, I am prepared to get the member more information on this issue. I happen to notice as well that the information I tabled with her on ticket sales also happens to show that McKim Communications Ltd. would appear to be doing some work as well. But the Pan Am Games has an overall board of directors; it has a number of committees formed from those boards. Again, like any organization, I am sure recommendations are coming from staff to the committees and to the board. I am sure, once certain budgets are approved, the staff have certain delegated authorities within certain financial limits and certain parameters. I am also aware that certainly as much as possible and in most instances they do their absolute utmost to ensure that there is a tendering process or an RFP process, a process to give firms an opportunity to bid on work. So I think their reporting relationship, their structure is a fairly typical one, and there are a series of checks and balances throughout the entire system from the board through to the committees through to the individual staff, Madam Chair.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, does the minister know if there is any concern expressed at any of those levels about this communication and marketing and advertising strategy that is relying so heavily on Winnipeg? There is also market research done. I guess that was to some extent the basis for this, but I am wondering if there has been much discussion about the wisdom.

I look at the way that the ad campaign in the newspapers is laid out. It is only going to Grand Forks, Thunder Bay, Saskatoon and Regina. The minister has made reference, and there is a reference here, to full-page ads in The Globe and Mail. There are six of them, but I am wondering if that is The Globe and Mail across the country or if it is just sort of targeted as these other ads are. So there are a couple of questions there. I wonder if the minister can clarify those things.

Mr. Stefanson: In the written summary of this ticket sales campaign, the member will note the third or fourth bullet down, national advertising. It is referred to as national advertising, including six full-page ads in the Globe and Mail. I believe it is the national Globe and Mail publication. The bullet above that one of course talks about radio, regional television, print advertising in Winnipeg, Brandon, Regina, Saskatoon, Thunder Bay, Grand Forks, and Fargo. Additional advertising is scheduled for North Dakota and Minnesota. About the fifth bullet down, in addition to the advertising campaign there is a direct response mail and telemarketing. It is targeted at corporate sport, households, over 100,000 direct mail packages being delivered in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, northwest Ontario, North Dakota, Minnesota. It goes on to talk about international markets, service through the national Olympic committees, and so on. At the very bottom it talks about group sales presentations and direct mail campaigns underway in Manitoba, northwest Ontario, North Dakota. Those are the most obvious markets in terms of getting the greatest return, the greatest number of people participating in the Games, and the Games committee is using a number of approaches to go after that market.

Ms. Cerilli: The question a lot of people are wondering about, though, is this strategy working, is it going to work, is the way the ticket sales are going a result of that strategy or is it something else? So I am wondering if the minister has information about a contingency plan, particularly for the issue we were discussing earlier in terms of the opening and closing ceremonies. Are there any plans for last minute seat sales? I do not know if you would want to discuss that publicly at this stage. I do not know if that would be wise in terms of marketing, but that is the kind of thing I am wondering. Is there some type of additional plan that is going to unfold in order to address what is happening with the ticket sales?

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Mr. Stefanson: Yesterday we spent some time talking about the Legacy Fund and how optimistic we both were that the budget was going to be achieved, in fact that there might even be a small surplus. To do that these ticket sales targets have to be met. I provided a status report from the Pan Am Games Society. They continue to be positive about their ability to hit their $13-million ticket sales. They are certainly going at the market where they expect the greatest likelihood of success, which is the Manitoba, northwest Ontario, Saskatchewan, North Dakota, Minnesota, South Dakota market, where the majority of individuals can and will come from. At this particular point in time, as I have said before, the Games fully expect to be within their expenditures. All of their other revenue sources are basically confirmed and on target, and the only area of some vulnerability is ticket sales but the organizers continue to expect to hit their target of $13 million.

Ms. Cerilli: Am I to interpret from the minister's answer that there is not a contingency plan, and he does not believe that there is a need for a contingency plan, or that the Games does not believe that there is a need for a contingency plan in terms of the marketing strategy and the ticket sales?

Mr. Stefanson: No, I do not mean that at all, Mr. Chairman. I know the Games continue to look at their contingency plans. As any flexibility opens up on any of the expenditures, they are assessing whether or not there is the ability to apply that as a contingency against ticket sales, so they are taking all of the appropriate and prudent steps to do everything they can to ensure that they have a balanced budget for these Games.

Ms. Cerilli: I guess what I was getting at, especially as I have now read the document the minister has provided with in terms of the Pan Am Games advertising promotion and ticket sale campaign. I was getting at the question particularly of the opening and closing ceremonies, if there is a priority to have those seats full and if there will be anything done to try and attempt to get those seats full if they are not by June 22 or 23.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chair, I am aware that the Games continue to look at all aspects of marketing the Games and certainly an important part of that are the opening and closing ceremonies. They are developing various approaches to encourage individuals, firms, to purchase tickets for those events. Again, I think on an overall basis we expect them to be successful with their ticket sales. The information that I have been provided is they are using some targeted approaches with sporting organizations, targeted approaches with corporations acquiring opening and closing ceremony tickets either for employees or for other groups and so on. So they are taking a number of steps to ensure that those events are well attended and are a success.

Ms. Cerilli: Reading from the same document I just made reference to, the last point is that "Games organizers are optimistic that an advance sales target of 65 percent is achievable. It is anticipated that walk-up traffic will be sufficient to generate the remaining $4.5 million." Now the other day we spent quite a bit of time talking about the $500,000 to $600,000 ticket target. That equals about $13 million. Is that the 65 percent target that this is referring to, or is this 65 percent target in terms of advanced ticket sales different?

Mr. Stefanson: The 65 percent of advance ticket sales is 65 percent of the $13-million target or 65 percent of the 600,000 tickets. I believe that is the amount. That is correct, Mr. Chairman, the 65 percent is based on the target of $13 million, the budgeted amount for sales. So they are expecting that 65 percent of those tickets can be sold in advance, and the remaining 35 percent, if you take 35 percent of $13 million, you will get $4.5 million. That is the amount that they expect to be generated as walk-up and sales throughout the period of the Games.

Ms. Cerilli: So it is as I was describing it the other day where the additional tickets to reach sort of a sell-out, that would still be the same amount and would be additional revenue above and beyond the $13 million. It does not really change from what we were discussing the other day then.

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Mr. Stefanson: That is correct that there are more tickets available. If they were sold then that would obviously generate the surplus. So it is no different than we talked about the other day, $13 million is the amount in the budget. That is still the target that they expect to achieve at this particular point in time, and as it says here 65 percent of that target is expected to be achieved prior to the Games, the other 35 percent during the Games. But if the ticket sales are stronger than that, as we discussed the other day, then that will generate additional revenue that either can be spent, if there is a need to spend it in some area to enhance the Games, or it becomes a surplus that we discussed yesterday that then 50 percent of it ends up in the Legacy Fund for the benefit of amateur sport in Manitoba.

Ms. Cerilli: I just think this is a really important point. We spent quite a bit of time discussing this the other day, but I find it interesting that the target would only include a 35 percent of walk-up or during-the-Games kind of ticket purchasing. Does the minister have any explanation of why that is the case, why you would have been relying more to reach your target on the advanced tickets?

Mr. Stefanson: Well, again, Mr. Chairman, this is coming from the Games that has done the surveys and the polling and the total analysis of what they feel is achievable. I think, as Games organizers, you obviously would prefer to sell as many tickets in advance as you possibly can, because then you know with certainty going into the Games that you have achieved your financial targets and your budget. Having said that, we also know from other Games experiences that there are significant walk-ups. The World Junior Hockey was an excellent example where an awful lot of those tickets were sold once the Games started and during the Games.

The Games Society believes that this is what is achievable and, so long as they achieve it, they will hit their overall target of $13 million. Mr. Chairman, 35 percent, $4.5 million is a lot of money to be achieving during the Games themselves, but obviously they feel they can do that, as I say, based on past practices, other events and the polling and surveying they have done. But, if they are even more successful during the Games, as we have discussed over the last few days, that will give the Pan Am Games the flexibility of having a legacy or spending the money if they have any area that they need to spend the money on.

Ms. Cerilli: As I look through my notes here, I am reminded of another issue that we discussed the other day. The minister was going to get back to me with some kind of an explanation on the mix-up that has occurred with some tickets anyway between Select-A-Seat and Pan Am Games. I have more details now about what actually occurred, and there are a number of issues here.

There were only the two days of time for people to respond in April, and then there was one week after that that the tickets would arrive. That is the notes I have taken here. But I remember now, it was a very short amount of time that people had to respond and you had to phone Select-A-Seat and confirm that the tickets you received as noted on a card, a confirmation card, were the ones that you wanted.

As I described earlier, we telephoned in and attempted to make a change because we thought they had made a mistake on the tickets that they had issued to us, and when we received our tickets, no correction had been made or no change had been made. We now have, as I described earlier, 14 tickets for one event. We have a big family and we are lucky, or else we would be inviting members opposite. So this is the issue I have been raising regarding the scope of this mix-up. I wonder if the minister has any more information on that now.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, no, I do not have that information yet. I am still awaiting it from the Pan Am Games.

Ms. Cerilli: One of the other notes that I have here is with respect to the advertising promotion. I think it was an opportunity that was missed with the Pan Am Games. I again want to compliment them on the idea of having the insert in the phone book. That is where we got the idea for purchasing those early tickets. It was timely in that it was before Christmas. I mentioned the other day that I purchased a bunch as Christmas gifts, but was disappointed that there was no confirmation card that I received that could be given out as the actual gift, when I gave that to my nieces and nephews. That would have been, I think, a nice touch, and it would have been another way that they could have promoted the Pan Am Games at Christmas time when people obviously are doing a lot of gift buying.

I think that some of these considerations–I guess it is a little late to deal with them now. I mean there is nothing that could be done about that. But the contract for that promotion campaign or that advertising, I do not know if that is something that was ever considered, if there will be some kind of a review of this type of matter with the company–I guess I will find out when you provide me that information–that did that promotion for the tickets, if some of these issues will be discussed with them, and how that will be dealt with in terms of these kinds of mixups, and in terms of the kinds of missed opportunities that I have just described.

Mr. Stefanson: Well, Mr. Chairman, as I have indicated, we are following up with the Pan Am Games Society, so I will provide the member with more information on that issue, and I will certainly pass along her comments.

Ms. Cerilli: One of the other issues I guess we should just touch on while we are talking about the advertising, and that has to do with the television coverage. I guess there is a different take on this, depending on who you talk to, in terms of what could be expected by the television interest in covering the Pan Am Games, whether there has been great success in terms of the coverage that is going to occur, or if it is somewhat lacking.

The issue that I wanted to raise has to do with local stations that are, I guess, not going to be allowed actually at the venues to do their own taping. That is, I guess, because of the kind of agreements that are with certain television networks to have exclusive rights. Can the minister clarify if that is the case, if what is expected is that local television stations, particularly if they are wanting to show the success and the accomplishments of local athletes, are going to have to get sort of secondhand tape? I guess I should ask the question: by what kind of arrangements will they have to get the actual footage in order to include that in local newscasts?

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Mr. Stefanson: Again this issue received some media coverage fairly recently, and I know meetings are being held with the local TV nonrights holders to discuss the whole issue of services and access. Follow-up meetings are scheduled and as well a major meeting was held on May 12 with all media reps, managers and photo marshals to go over the venues and the services established and so on. Really the issue is access to filming of the actual event itself and then access to athletes before and after events for interviews, Madam Chair. So the information I have is that the Pan Am Games and the TV nonrights holders and organization involved are meeting to discuss and resolve that issue.

Ms. Cerilli: So obviously there is not any resolution to this yet, and some of the local broadcasters are still upset that they are not going to be able to have access in the venue to athletes, and they are being told that they would have to make arrangements to do interviews after the fact. The other part of the question I asked is in terms of including footage in local news, is that something that is being discussed in these meetings? I am not that familiar with how this would usually work in terms of any games where they are occurring locally, but local television stations are not the ones that have the rights to access the venues.

Mr. Stefanson: I would not want to say unequivocally that the issue has not been resolved. The information I have is a couple of weeks old, so meetings have been taking place and I will provide a status report to the member. One of the issues is the issue of footage that is being discussed, access to footage of the events and so on, Madam Chair.

Ms. Cerilli: One of the implications of the article that I am reading is that there was consideration of what was being called a possible boycotter. No, they said they stopped short of threatening a boycott, but I want an explanation of what that would mean. Would it mean that local television stations would not include any coverage in the news of events?

Mr. Stefanson: No, Madam Chair, I would not want to suggest that for a minute. I fully expect, and based on everything we have seen to date, that this event is going to be very well received by the media. It is going to receive extensive coverage from all of our media outlets in the lead-up to the Games and, in particular, during the Games.

What is at issue here and what is being resolved I believe through these meetings is the common issue with any games of any size, to get major sponsor support, corporate support. One of the issues is exclusivity, whether you are in media rights or television rights or food services or financial services or whatever it might be, and it is a matter of balancing that with the needs of the local community. That is exactly what these meetings are undertaking to do, and I am confident they will reach a resolution that everybody can certainly live with, Madam Chair.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, there is something here that I am not understanding. The whole concept of exclusive rights to broadcast a special event like this is based on the idea that the broadcaster would pay the organizers of the event for exclusive rights. But, as I understand it, that is not what is occurring here, that the coverage that we are getting on television is actually costing the Games. So can the minister explain how that is working?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Chair, I know we discussed this in the last Estimates. I believe I provided some follow-up to the member. I will follow up on this issue again. I believe she is correct that the Pan Am Games, in effect, paid for the advertising rights, and they are selling the advertising time. I will provide the information as best I can to the member recognizing there are certain confidentiality provisions, I believe, in some of the contracts and also recognizing that CBC and TSN are both dedicating fairly significant hours to the broadcasting of the Games.

Ms. Cerilli: The minister is talking about advertising time being sold, but what I am talking about is broadcast time. Can the minister maybe, to start off with, go through–there is CBC, there is TSN, there is some type of Latino network–just what television stations there are that are going to be covering the events themselves, not as part of their news but as part of a whole program coverage, and how much each of those are paying, or I should say being paid to do that?

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Mr. Stefanson: Madam Chair, I will undertake to provide that information to the member. I know in Canada it is CBC and the TSN-RDS networks that are televising the Games. There is an affiliation in the South American countries, and I will provide that information for the member.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, I know we have been here for a while going through this, but it seems like the minister's answers are getting more and more where he is taking just everything as notice and I am not actually getting anywhere. The minister must have more information about this than what he has given me in terms of how this is working, that he has not answered the question about the financial arrangements in terms of these television agreements. If he does not actually have the detail of the actual cost in number, at least, some explanation of the financial arrangements, the type of arrangements that are being made with these different television contracts.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, well, the member is right. I am going to get back to her on some of these questions. I think she could go and ask Glen Murray or she could go and ask Lloyd Axworthy or Ron Duhamel a detailed question on the Pan Am Games and she would get an awful lot less information than she is getting here today. I think you have to look at the nature of the organization that we have a board that is in place with community volunteers and people appointed by levels of government. We have a bureaucracy in place, a fairly significant bureaucracy, to run the Games and obviously we approve budgets. We approve overall plans for the Games, but when you get into the detailed day-to-day operations throughout these last few years, it is the board and the staff that are doing the majority of the work in those areas. It would be no different than asking detailed questions about what is happening at the University of Manitoba in the Education Estimates or her asking detailed questions about what is happening at the City of Winnipeg in the Urban Affairs Estimates, or I could go down the list in terms of comparisons. We have a fair degree of information, we certainly have some here today, we have some in my office, and I will certainly provide her all the information I can for any questions that she asks.

Ms. Cerilli: I would think, though, that the minister is being briefed on matters related to the Games that are receiving the kind of media attention like this would be. I mean, when you have local television stations with a headline saying they may boycott, I am sure the minister has some interest in finding out some of the issues related to this topic. So for the minister to say that I should ask Mr. Murray or Mr. Duhamel, neither of those individuals are the Minister of Sport for Manitoba, and they are not members of this Legislature. I do not have the same type of relationship or opportunity to ask questions, and they do not have the same kinds of responsibilities as the minister has in being accountable for public funds to this Legislature through the Estimates process.

So I hear what he is saying about the fact that the Pan Am Games Society is somewhat arm's length, but I was making the comment that I have noticed since we started this process that the minister's discussions with his staff are remaining the same in terms of the duration, but his answers are getting more and more like he is just taking all the questions as notice. I am not getting the same kind of information and answers I was getting when we started this process a few days ago. So this point that I am asking, we have gotten some detailed information about other matters, and I am not even asking for the detail of the number in terms of the cost for these television station agreements. What I am asking for is an explanation of how this works.

I am also interested in terms of CBC, if they are the ones that have exclusive rights in Canada for broadcasting other matters in terms of the kind of agreement that is in place in terms of the advertising that they are going to be doing and if that is part of their contract. I mean, that kind of detail I can even leave aside.

The point that I think that the minister must be able to answer is: what is the agreement with these television stations in terms of the cost and how it works, as I described earlier, because I remember that this was discussed publicly quite a bit, that the nature of these large events is changing in terms of television networks being able to bid and getting exclusive rights, that there is not the same type of interest, that now what is happening is they are actually paying to have television coverage, and that is an expense that the Games are having to incur. So that is the matter that I am wanting to get clarified. I do not think that that is some detail. I think that is sort of a major point. I wanted to see what the arrangement was for each of the different networks, if it is the same for the CBC as it is with TSN and any other television contracts that are being signed.

Mr. Stefanson: The point I was making for the member, if she missed it, by comparisons to Mayor Murray or Lloyd Axworthy, was not that they are accountable to this Legislature. It was a comparison. They both have responsibilities on behalf of their levels of government. If she were asking the same degree of detail of them, I think she would get, if anything, less information from asking the question without their going back and obtaining a great deal of the information from the Pan Am Games Society.

I certainly did give briefings and have discussions with them about a number of issues, but we also do not maintain or keep a lot of the documentation that is maintained by the Pan Am Games Society. Rather than go by memory, if she wants to get into detailed questions about arrangements for television, we had a bit of a discussion on this I know a year ago. We provided some information at the time. I do not have the letter I sent her outlining a number of the issues she asked back in last year's Estimates, but I have indicated I will get the details for her, and I will provide them to her.

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Ms. Cerilli: So the minister is telling the committee that the staff that he has with him who are here to provide him briefing and advice do not have any more information about the television contracts.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the short answer is yes. I can give her some information I think she already is aware of, that a news conference was held May 26, 1997, to announce the Canadian broadcasting for the Pan Am Games, and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, CBC, and NetStar Communications, TSN-RDS, will provide joint coverage of the 1999 Pan American Games.

CBC will provide approximately 35 hours of prime time coverage, including the opening and closing ceremonies. CBC's coverage will include two hours in prime time to the full English language network. An additional hour will be seen locally every night during the Games on CBC Manitoba and its northwest Ontario repeater stations. NetStar Communication's commitment is for 65 hours of additional coverage during the day on both TSN and their French language counterpart RDS.

CBC has been announced as the host broadcaster providing the picture and international sound for all rights holders. The Panasonic international broadcast centre will be located at the CBC Winnipeg studio.

I have indicated that I will get other information on other television rights, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, we have covered a number of items that have flowed, I guess, from the kinds of questions that were initiated by the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), but when I started off, I was asking questions about the budget and the Pan Am Games Agreement.

The minister had said he was going to look into providing me with copies of a number of the plans under the business plan, the financial plan, the marketing plan. I guess that is one of the ones I have now, or, no, that is different than the one I have, perhaps, the risk-management plan, the plan for greening of the Games.

Is that something that the minister is just going to include in the same package, or am I going to get that sooner than some of the other items he will probably put in a letter?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I indicated earlier this afternoon to the member when she asked specifically about two areas, the information from Crown corporations and information about expenditures from departments of government that have a relationship to the Pan Am Games, that I felt I could get that to her before the end of June.

We have been keeping track of her various requests since we started the Estimates process. We have provided some of the information as we have gone through the Estimates process, Mr. Chairman, and we will certainly undertake to provide the rest of that information as soon as possible.

Ms. Cerilli: The question I was asking, though, is I know the kind of letter that I am going to get from the minister with answers to some of the detailed questions. What I was asking him, though, is if I could get copies of some of these documents ahead of time of that, rather than waiting for you to go through all of the notes you are taking and put that in a letter form. If some of the requests that I have made are documents that you are going to provide me with, if you could provide that to me sooner than waiting for you to compile the letter and all the other information.

Mr. Stefanson: Absolutely, Mr. Chairman. I will provide them as they become available, rather than waiting until we have everything compiled and then doing it all at once.

Ms. Cerilli: But one of the issues under here that I wanted to discuss is also a matter that has come up today publicly. It has to do with the plan for the Pan Am Games, Greening Our Games. One of the items under there that was, as I understand it, discussed at the Pan Am Games Society with the head of the environment committee is that the Pan Am Games had a position that they would not be requesting to have the City of Winnipeg spray with malathion for mosquitoes. We know that there are plans to go ahead and do this. Not only are they going to do it, but they are going to have the city waive the usual system that is in place where residents can request the buffer zone around their property. So I am wondering how this could occur. If the policy at the Pan Am Games, through the environment committee, was not to have this practice occur, why is it that the city and other areas are going to be sprayed with malathion for mosquitoes?

Mr. Stefanson: Well, Mr. Chair, obviously, this is an issue being dealt with primarily between the City of Winnipeg and the Pan Am Games Society, and I will certainly undertake to get more information for the member on the issue.

Ms. Cerilli: Is the minister aware that was the policy of the Pan Am Games, or that the intent was to not have spraying done? Is that the minister's understanding?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I believe that one of the policies of the Games is certainly to be environmentally friendly. In terms of the specific aspects, again, I will check on that, and I will check on what discussions have taken place with the City of Winnipeg.

Ms. Cerilli: There is also a policy through Natural Resources, an understanding not to have natural areas like Birds Hill Park or other venues like that that are being used sprayed, and that is an ongoing policy. Is that policy going to be followed for the Pan Am Games?

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Mr. Stefanson: Well, Mr. Chairman, I will check with Natural Resources as to what their plans are.

Ms. Cerilli: In reading through the Pan Am Games agreement, one of the items on page 11 indicates that the Pan Am Games Society can make amendments to their budget as long as it is not in excess of a million dollars. I am wondering if the minister can tell me how many times there have been such amendments made to the budget, if this is something that has occurred over the course of the life of the Pan Am Games Society in the various compilations of budgets we have seen, if what has occurred is that the Pan Am Games Society has been utilizing this power to make amendments to the budget that are less than a million dollars.

Mr. Stefanson: Well, Mr. Chairman, under that Clause 6.2 on page 11 of the agreement, there has been the one amendment that we referred to the other day when the funding support from both the federal government and the provincial government was increased.

That was in 1998, Mr. Chairman, that that amendment to the agreement was put in place.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, I am sure the minister can provide me then with information on any other amendments since then that would have occurred in the budget that would have been under that dollar amount.

In the same vein, item 6.5 under the same business plan, accounting and auditing, there is a requirement that each level of government would be provided with financial statements of an audit for each year that the society is in operation. Can the minister tell me the number of audits that have been done and if that is another document that would be provided to us?

Mr. Stefanson: The member is correct that the society has to prepare and provide audited financial statements. I will undertake to provide her copies of all audited financial statements since the signing of the agreement, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Cerilli: Can the minister also tell the committee who is the auditor that is representing Manitoba who would have access on an ongoing basis under No. 6.6 and if there is any involvement by the Provincial Auditor?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, 6.6, as it says, is the society shall permit reasonable access to auditors representing Canada, Manitoba and Winnipeg, and, obviously, that would be at the discretion of each level of government what auditors they wanted to access. The Province of Manitoba, if we so chose, could use the Provincial Auditor or we could use any other auditing firm.

Ms. Cerilli: It does not sound like Manitoba has done that, but I think from our discussions there have been other levels of government that have utilized that provision. Can the minister clarify that? Has Manitoba made any access through the Auditor and what the results of those inquiries are.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I believe that has been done once by the federal government and once by the City of Winnipeg, but I will confirm that for the member.

Ms. Cerilli: Then not by the Manitoba government obviously. The minister can confirm that, too, but I want to move on.

The next area of policy agreement is governing travel expenditures and purchase of goods and services and tendering policies. It has been raised with me that there may have been change in some of the tender agreements. Will the minister provide me with a list of all the companies that have been given the opportunity to utilize the Pan Am Games logo on products or any other contracts where they have been manufacturing goods for the Pan Am Games or where there is agreement for them to sell products related to the Pan Am Games? Will the minister agree to provide that information to us?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I will undertake to provide that information. If there is a problem with that, I will let the member know; otherwise, I would expect I should be able to provide that information.

Ms. Cerilli: Is there a problem with that? Is there a problem with getting the list of the companies that are now working with the Pan Am Games as suppliers, as distributors, manufacturers? Is that not something we should have access to?

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Mr. Stefanson: No, I indicated I did not expect that there would be. If there is a problem with that, I will outline what the problem is.

Ms. Cerilli: There is a clause in this agreement that requires the Pan Am Games to give priority to Canadians and Canadian economic interest in terms of selecting of suppliers–

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable member for Radisson, could I have you face the microphones? They are not picking you up at all, and it makes it a little difficult. Just when you are facing the side, it does not work.

Ms. Cerilli: Yes. I was saying that there is a clause in the agreement that requires the Pan Am Games to give priority to Canadians and–

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I hate to interrupt the honourable member. Could I have those members wanting to carry on a conversation to do so in the loge, please? It is a little hard to hear the member for Radisson speaking.

Ms. Cerilli: I am wanting to ask the minister about the Pan Am Games policy with respect to buying Canadian or hiring Canadian in terms of suppliers and contractors, and if this policy is being followed to the minister's understanding.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the information I have is that Section 75 is being complied with. We will certainly inquire again of the Pan Am Games to ensure that that is the case.

Ms. Cerilli: One particular instance has been drawn to our attention and that involves some changes that were made in contracts for the development of a line of clothing or manufacturing of clothing. I am wondering if the minister would confirm that there have been changes made, that there was a Canadian company and that the Canadian company is no longer involved, and now the clothing for Pan Am Games is now being supplied through China. Is that something that the minister could confirm?

Mr. Stefanson: Well, again, all the information we have is certainly Section 7.5 is being complied with. We are aware of a number of Manitoba firms that are providing clothing to and as a result of the Pan Am Games. But I will inquire about the specific issue or question raised by the member.

Ms. Cerilli: I am also interested in getting a copy of the conflict of interest policy and the travel and expense policy that was to be developed as per this agreement.

Mr. Stefanson: Yes, we will undertake to provide copies of both of those documents.

Ms. Cerilli: We have already discussed to some extent the issue of how a deficit for the Games will be dealt with. I am wondering if Manitoba has any type of a legal report on this or any type of sort of legal opinion on this, if you have asked for that.

Mr. Stefanson: As outlined in Section 8.2 of the agreement that the member has a copy of, it says: "Canada, Manitoba and Winnipeg shall not be responsible for any Games Deficit." I believe that this agreement would have been reviewed by Legal Counsel at the time of entering into. There has been no subsequent legal opinion obtained since that point.

Ms. Cerilli: If there is a deficit and the Pan Am Games Society is going to be responsible for that, can the minister describe what usually happens in a Games like this, with the way the Pan Am Games Society will deal with that deficit considering that after the Games, the Pan Am Games Society itself will be dissolved? As I understand it, once the Games are over, the Pan Am Games Society will be dissolved.

Mr. Stefanson: As we discussed yesterday, and the member herself indicated, she did not think there would be a deficit. I do not think there will be a deficit, but obviously the Games Society would have to address that. There are different things they could do.

They could continue to attempt to get some financial support from the public or the corporate sector, recognizing it is more difficult once the Games are over, but that certainly is an avenue. They can look at the assets that they have acquired during the Games, and whether or not any of those assets could be sold off. That would be something they would be looking at as well. So there are various steps that they can take, if a deficit were incurred, but we do not expect that to be the case.

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Ms. Cerilli: Just to clarify, I said that I was more, I guess, optimistic regarding the financial history of the Pan Am Games, once I more fully understood how the target for the ticket sales worked, that there was quite a bit of room there, even if the target was met.

I think, though, that obviously, because the other levels of government have gone to some lengths to try to understand more clearly what a deficit would mean to them and mean for them, and what we have been talking about in terms of the ticket sales, there still is an issue in terms of the possibility of there being a deficit.

So I appreciate the minister's explanation. I guess the question I am asking as part of this is: would the Pan Am Games Society continue to exist as a legal corporate entity in order to deal with any kind of a deficit?

Mr. Stefanson: I would not agree with the member when she says the other levels of government would understand more clearly. I would say quite the opposite. Just because they sent in an auditor does not in any way enhance their understanding of the overall operations of the Games, and they are faced with the exact same situation that we are faced with as a partner in the Games today, Mr. Chairman. I would suggest that we have as much contact as any of the government partners in the Pan Am Games.

But, having said that, yes, I would expect that the entity would remain in place, if there was a deficit, until the deficit issue was resolved.

Ms. Cerilli: I guess the reason I said what I did about the federal and the city levels of government is we know that, through the city Audit Department, this review of the status of the Pan Am Games led to them saying that–they were trying to investigate if there was sufficient information to determine if any liabilities could rise out of the Host City Agreement. I think just the fact that both other levels of government have involved an auditor means that there is cause for some concern on their part. I was just using that as an example then to reinforce the idea that I think, on the one hand, we have discussed what would happen if there was a surplus but it is also a responsible thing to look at what would occur in the case of a deficit. The minister, the other day, explained that it was Manitoba's position that they would not have an auditor involved at this point because they thought that would be a duplication of services that were already being undertaken by the other levels of government, and the minister wanted to see more co-operation between the different levels of government on this matter. At the same time, I think the minister had also said though that he has not received a copy of the federal government's audit. I think that is probably still the case.

Mr. Stefanson: I think the important thing is neither one of those audits, while I am sure they were of some value, led to any actions being taken whatsoever by the Pan Am Games or by the city or by the federal government. So to compare those to the ongoing involvement we have had with the Games in terms of reviewing issues, going over their budgets in the absence of an audit, those audits did not lead to any findings that led to any fundamental change or any change in direction or any recommendations that changed the financial picture of the Games. That is my point that we have had ongoing discussion with the board, with staff, I would suggest as much or more than the other two levels of government, and it is also what steps are being taken to be absolutely certain these Games are a success in terms of supporting the Games with a number of their issues, whether it is raising revenue or assisting them in other aspects of putting on the Games.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, the fact that the city audit includes that statement that I have already read, that there was some outstanding possibility that because of language in the Host City Agreement that there could be some liability on the City of Winnipeg, is that something that the minister has reviewed and does he have any information on that? I guess further to that was it agreed that with the federal government's comments that it was the city that bid on the Games and they would be more likely to have to assist the Pan Am Games Society with any debt reduction left in terms of a deficit.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I think this clause in the agreement speaks for itself on the issue of deficits. We do not expect the Games to end up in a deficit position. I have already outlined for the member some of the steps that the Pan Am Games Society could take and I am sure would be looking at if there is a deficit. We have certainly been extremely supportive throughout this entire process with the Pan Am Games to make sure the Games are a success on a number of fronts, and I would hope and expect the other levels of government have been doing the same. If there is a deficit, then obviously all of the parties will have to work co-operatively to resolve that. But I have outlined the kinds of steps that the Pan Am Games Society would probably be looking at to deal with any potential deficit.

Ms. Cerilli: In the November 1997 update from the Pan Am Games Society, under local fundraising, it makes reference to a new category which was developed in the Friends of the Games, a participation package and it would include sponsorship ranging from $5,000 to $150,000, and there was a list of businesses that were going to be approached. I am wanting some kind of a report on the success of that project and an indication of the individuals or businesses who have become Friends of the Games under that program.

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Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the Friends of the Games has been a very successful initiative. I believe it was chaired by Mr. Kerry Hawkins from Cargill, and if the member were to look at the April-May partners report that I provided her the other day, on page 10, it will give a status report at that particular point in time, where the confirmed contributions are $3,443,365. In this particular report it outlines who the new Friends of the Game were at that particular stage and it lists a number of companies. I could certainly undertake to provide a status report of the total amount raised under the Friends of the Games and the listing of the firms that have been supporting.

Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): I am interested, and the minister also being the former Minister of Finance, about the projections for income, the benefits to the Pan Am Games. I am not too sure I understand because so much of the money being spent, to me, is flow-through money, money going to the Holiday Inn hotel chain flows through Manitoba. There are some small minimum wage jobs that maybe they have had to hire a few but it is flow-through money. It goes to somewhere else. Money going to networks, flowing through. I would like to know what economic benefits we will see in Manitoba other than for the brief two-week period. We will have a small amount of employment there, but it is a lot of effort by a lot of volunteers. What economic benefits are we going to see in Manitoba because the Pan Am Games are here?

Mr. Stefanson: I will not read all of this, but there was a Manitoba impact assessment done by the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics on behalf of the Games and it really is meant to do exactly what the member asks. It looks at direct employment in Manitoba and expenditures in Manitoba, and it is meant to factor in the elements that the member is referring to, what is actually happening in your economy, what is happening in the rest of Canada's economy and so on. At that particular point in time out of the budget it said, direct Games expenditures in Manitoba, $118.3 million, therefore for each dollar in direct Games expenditures in Canada 92.7 cents are estimated as direct Manitoba-based expenditure. So that takes into consideration what the member is saying that some of these expenditures do not stay in our province, but the study done by the bureau indicated that almost 93 percent will stay in Manitoba.

It then goes on, and it factors in levering the economic impact. It goes on, and it talks about employment and person-years of employment and direct expenditures, impact on GDP, labour income, employment persons, direct and other employment. It goes on to factor in income taxes generated as a result of the Games and as a result of visitors. So it totals total provincial taxes, local taxes, federal taxes. This study, at that particular point in time based on the current budget of the Games, showed total Manitoba impacts in terms of taxes collected being about $37 million, which was broken down about $14 million in provincial, $4.5 million in local and about $18.8 million in federal.

So I could go on at length reading the summary of this, but it might be better to make a copy available to the member, and then he can go through it himself, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Kowalski: I would appreciate a copy of that document, because I remember reading something written by Carl Ridd, especially when we were looking at the Save the Jets, and there were people looking at building arenas and that. At the time, there were a number of academics and expertise that said that consistently, whether it is the Commonwealth Games, the Olympics, that the revenues are always overestimated. The economic benefits are always overestimated, and most of the cities are prepared to justify the amount of effort that goes into something like this.

So I will be interested in examining this document closely because I hope this will not be another one. Yes, we are going to fill up hotel rooms; yes, we are going to have some legacies here. I do not think there will be as many legacies as from the last Pan Am Games. I could be wrong there, but I do not see the amount of construction we saw such as the Pan-Am Pool and the Velodrome from the last Pan Am Games.

I am really cynical and skeptical about the economic benefits to Manitoba from these Pan Am Games. There have been some advertising companies that have made some good money on this. There have been some people hired from Atlanta and Americans who have been hired who have made some good money on this, but I would be interested to read this document to see if there is a great economic benefit for Manitoba and Manitobans.

Mr. Stefanson: Well, Mr. Chairman, I will provide a copy of this economic impact assessment, and, certainly, the member can go through it, and we will gladly answer any questions. A fairly common approach used by economic agencies in terms of calculating the economic impact–I think the one argument that is often made that is really very subjective is I think most do not question these calculations; they just say how much of that is incremental spending? If you did not have the Games going on, would those people still be spending that money somewhere else in the province of Manitoba, either at the lakes or at the restaurants or at other venues, and that is something that is very difficult to quantify. If you did not have the Games, would you spend the money, or would you go outside of Manitoba? Would you go down to North Dakota or would you go to another province or something like that?

That is the argument that many people often make, is when you are factoring in the spending by Manitobans, how much of that is truly incremental? Nobody that I am aware of has developed a model to sort of factor that in in any way because it is, if you just think of it logically, extremely difficult to get a handle on. But the actual calculation based on the amount of money spent, I think most do not disagree with that. The argument is often this issue of incrementality, a similar argument at the time of the Jets. If the Jets were not here, would that money still be spent on our economy? Where would it be spent in our economy in terms of entertainment and so on?

But I will provide the member with a copy of this. I think he will be pleasantly surprised on the issue of the capital projects. I would have to go back and look at 1967 in terms of the dollar cost of those projects, and they certainly were key projects, the Pan-Am Pool and the Pan Am Stadium at the university and the Velodrome, and so on, but if you look at issues like the Investors building out at the University of Manitoba, it is a great facility for basketball, volleyball, gymnastic. Some things are being done, not directly for the Games, but that will benefit the Games. The baseball stadium was not done for the Pan Am Games, but they are certainly going to benefit from that facility.

The Pan Am Games directly, as we discussed yesterday, is spending about $15.6 million on capital, of which the largest project is the Investors building. The second largest one is some improvements at the University of Manitoba Stadium, a new track and so on.

But, as we discussed, there are some other capital projects that are benefiting the Games, certainly the stadium, the baseball stadium, being a good case in point. So in 1967 we did very well with our facilities, but I think one of the reasons we were able to get these Games is that we do have a good nucleus of facilities, but this also is a chance to really upgrade some of our key facilities like the Pan-Am Pool and so on, but also to add a couple of new facilities. So I do not think we are doing too badly, but it would be interesting to do that comparison. I think we have probably fared well, both in '67 and today.

Mr. Kowalski: One more question, in regard to turnover in staff at the Pan Am Society. You know, for an organization that was serving such a short term, I am surprised at the amount of turnover that they have had. When Ernie Nairn was let go, along with a number of other people, I was surprised by the amount of turnover for an organization that only lasts for that period of time.

Do you have any figures on the amount of staff turnover that has occurred since the Society has moved in, full-time staff that have been let go or have quit or moved on to other things? Do you have any information about that? It strikes me that possibly, and I am just guessing, one of the underlying reasons is that these Pan Am Games, unlike the previous ones, are relying on more paid staff than volunteers. We have brought in experts from the United States. We brought in people from Atlanta and that, where the previous Pan Am Games were sort of the volunteer games. We pay people to do what people were volunteering in the last Games, especially at the higher management levels. As a result, there is not that community spirit; there is not that working together. As a result, you have had a high amount of turnover in the staff there. Now correct me if I am wrong.

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Mr. Stefanson: I will undertake to provide what information I can for the member. I do not think there have been a large number of turnovers, but I will get the numbers for the member. There have been some issues with some individuals. The member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) certainly touched on somebody whom most of us know, Ernie Nairn, and that received some media coverage at the time.

I think what the Games has been dealing with is this whole issue of people who have Games expertise versus trying to maintain a strong volunteer and community commitment and so on. These Games, in so many ways, have changed in terms of this whole issue of drawing on people who have some Games expertise.

I will get the numbers for the member in terms of people from outside of Manitoba who are serving for the Pan Am Games. I do not have those numbers with me, but I can certainly provide a breakdown of the total complement of staff, how many are from outside of Manitoba. When it comes to volunteers, back in April, May, the Games had something like 17,500 Manitobans registered as volunteers. I believe over 11,000 of those volunteers have now completed a training program. So, not surprisingly in Winnipeg or Manitoba, there is no shortage of people being prepared to volunteer, contribute and get involved. The key challenge is to make sure you make the best utilization of those people and it is a rewarding experience for them and everything is successful. I think the Pan Am Games will do that. I think they recognize the volunteers are going to be the key to the success of the Games, and they are certainly putting them through a general training program. I will get specific numbers on the staff complement, the issue of turnover and how many of those staff are from outside of the province of Manitoba.

Ms. Cerilli: I was just listening to the questions by the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski), and I just want to reiterate some of the questions that we asked the other day in terms of trying to determine the number of tourists that are going to come to Manitoba for the Pan Am Games. I think that will address some of the issues he was raising about in terms of the economic impact statement that was done, new money that will come to Manitoba, not just having Manitobans here spending money that would already be in our own economy but trying to increase the number of tourists that would come here. I was raising concerns about the way that the advertising and promotion media strategy has been targeted really in and around Winnipeg and Manitoba.

Granted we, I guess, usually get the majority of our tourists from the states bordering on Manitoba and the surrounding provinces, we did discuss earlier today the checks and balances that were in place in terms of the promotion and marketing strategy that is being used and any contingency plans that are in place. [interjection] Pardon? Well, the member for The Maples says Minneapolis, they have not heard of them there. I think that they had a couple of ads in their paper, but I will leave the minister to answer. If that is a query, maybe he can give more explanation of what exactly a large centre like Minneapolis has had in terms of inducements to them to come to Winnipeg for the Games.

Mr. Stefanson: Well, as we discussed earlier and it is in the memo that I gave the member for Radisson, there is regional television, radio, print advertising, and additional advertising has also taken place in North Dakota and Minnesota. As well, Minnesota is receiving part of the direct mail packages being sent out. So there certainly is some focus being given in the state of Minnesota by the Pan Am Games, but I will undertake to determine specifically what promotions are being done in Minneapolis.

Ms. Cerilli: Going back then to some of the questions I have been asking arising from the updates that we have been receiving on the Pan Am Games. I am interested in finding out how much it is costing us to rent the Convention Centre that is being used. There are a variety of sports that are going to be there as well as other uses. Can the minister explain what budget line that is from and what the cost is of the rental agreement for the Convention Centre?

Mr. Stefanson: As the member knows, we discussed yesterday the Convention Centre is being utilized for some venues and for various media activities. I will inquire about the arrangement between the Pan Am Games and the Convention Centre and get back to the member.

Ms. Cerilli: The same memo also makes reference to an MTS rate card for technology services that we provided. I would also be interested in more information about any kind of agreements with MTS in terms of a rate card and operations that were going to be involved, whether it is for media or for other uses for the Pan Am Games.

Mr. Stefanson: As we know, MTS is one of the largest corporate sponsors of the Games. Obviously they have an agreement in place with the Pan Am Games. I will inquire from the Pan Am Games Society about the issue of the rate card and provide whatever information I can on that issue.

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Ms. Cerilli: I also would be interested in finding out or getting an update on the status in terms of accommodation. There is a number of issues in this area.

I think a number of people were surprised that after all the time and the talk of how horrible it has been that Manitoba has had to have children in care of Child and Family Services stay in hotels, it took the Pan Am Games as an incentive or an impetus to finally get kids out of those hotels. I think it would be interesting to see now where they finally are gone, but does the Pan Am Games Society then have information about how many hotel rooms have been freed up as a result of having young people moved out of hotel rooms to make way for the Pan Am Games?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, if you look under the April/May partners report, Games Services Accommodation, it shows that internal invoices to date are $6,380,785, including hotels, home stay, bed and breakfast, and campgrounds. The release dates for both Tier 1 and Tier 2 hotels are passed. The Accommodations Department is working with the hotels on an individual basis to keep a variety of inventory of rooms in the Pan Am Manitoba Reservation System. It goes on to talk about other issues, so again a great opportunity for our hotel industry. The Games is managing its inventory and supply of rooms for the Pan Am Games.

Specific questions about the whole issue of utilizing hotel rooms for Family Services, the Family Services department, should probably be more appropriately asked during those Estimates.

Ms. Cerilli: I am sure that my colleague the MLA for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) can ask the questions in Family Services. These people have mentioned to me that there must have been enough of a need, I guess, to have that kind of decision made–

Mr. Chairperson: I hate to interrupt the honourable–

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Chairperson: Order. Could I ask the members who want to carry on a conversation to do so quietly in the loge. I know I could ask, and then I could kick you out of the Chamber. I am having great difficulty hearing the honourable member. I know the minister has to hear the questions. Thank you.

Ms. Cerilli: I was just making the point that the minister, I guess, really did not answer the question in terms of the number. He has just read me what is in the report he has provided me with, but he did not give any indication of the number that have been freed up because of kids that were in there. I guess we will follow that up with Child and Family Services.

Another issue that I find interesting on here in terms of logistics is the planning and scheduling of Games-timed freight movement. I am assuming that means there are going to be some attempts to have trains that travel through the city to be on a schedule sensitive to scheduling of major events. Is that the case, and how have those negotiations gone? What has been agreed to in terms of CN and CP?

Mr. Stefanson: Just to conclude the first issue, the reason I suggested it is more appropriate at Family Services, the issue of utilizing hotel rooms for Child and Family Services Agencies, Mr. Chairman, I am not aware of any correlation between that issue and the Pan Am Games, because the Pan Am Games has certainly been able to acquire the rooms that they need in respect to that issue. Therefore, the utilization of hotel rooms for that kind of support and service is an appropriate question during the Family Services Estimates.

If the member is referring to page 5 of the April/May Partners, under the logistics where it talks about planning and scheduling of Games time freight movement, that has nothing to do with trains. That is purely the movement of supplies from central locations out to the various venues, the equipment that might be required, other supplies that have to be set up and so on, Mr. Chairman. That is all that is meant to refer to.

Ms. Cerilli: I guess, I was thinking about some of the problems that occurred in the last Olympic Games in the States, when there was all those problems with traffic. I do not think we are going to have the same kind of problems here, especially in the middle of the summer, but I know that there can be an awful lot of trains coming through Winnipeg if that is going to occur especially out around the Stadium. I notice that there also is a traffic committee that has been meeting.

One of the other programs I wanted to ask question about though is the program where Winnipeggers or, I guess, other Manitobans as well were offered a chance to host guests. I believe, I know one person anyway. They were offered $300 a night for giving up their house for a certain number of days. They had someone come in and sort of do a checklist inspection and had their property and home assessed and were given a five-star rating, I think, and that meant they were eligible for a certain amount of money.

I am interested in finding the budget for that program and the number of homes. I remember reading something about this in the media, as well, but I just want to get an update on that as well.

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Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, again, if the member were to look on page 6 of the April/May partners report, she would note that sales of 12 executive class homes to nine clients are being processed, and they have approximately 100 executive class homes in inventory. Interested clients may look at photos of many of the homes and can arrange to view specific homes. That is being done in conjunction with the Winnipeg Real Estate Board, and it is like a service being co-ordinated by the Pan Am Games Society.

Ms. Cerilli: What is the budget for the program? I am interested in finding out which line that is from. Just to continue on, I am assuming that program is in place because there are certain visitors that are going to be here for a duration, or their circumstances lend themselves to having a larger space. I maybe just want some kind of explanation for the intent of that program or the objectives and reasons for having that kind of a program. It is actually smaller than I thought it was.

Just to continue on on that program, it would also be interesting at some point to get an indication of where those homes are. I am not sure if that will be part of some kind of final report on the Games. I am not saying I need to get that information prior to the Games at all.

Mr. Stefanson: The member is right in her assumption that there are just certain families or groups that would want access to this kind of accommodation. I can undertake to get a listing of this information, but I will have to confirm this is not a cost to the Pan Am Games, because it is recovered from the people using the home. I will certainly get the financial details for the member.

Ms. Cerilli: That is good. It answers my question. Okay.

The other area that has been a concern, and I know I raised this last year, is the athletes village. I think I have a letter here from the minister from last year where he outlined some of the venues that were planned as athletes accommodations, but I know in talking with some people involved in the sports that this is a concern, that some of the athletes are really squished in. With all the athletes that are coming that in an international Games like this, it is not common to have them three and four to a room, and in the Pan Am Games that is what is going to happen.

I am wondering if that has changed since last year and if I can get a rundown of where all the athletes villages are and if that is at its final state or if it is still in progress and there actually is still not a completion on locating all the accommodations for athletes.

Mr. Stefanson: I believe the athletes are being housed here in Winnipeg at the University of Manitoba, in Portage la Prairie at the Southport facility, Brandon University, I believe, and at Gimli as well. In those locations, well, I am not aware of any problems relative to the services for the athletes in terms of their housing or their access to utilities and so on. But I will certainly get a status report for the member.

Ms. Cerilli: So the minister is not aware of the concerns that I have just expressed, that other Games athletes have had a lot more room at the international level. You can appreciate the importance that privacy and rest and suitable accommodations are for high performance athletes. If they are going to be bunking in bunk-beds, four to a room, that is, in the opinion of some athletes and coaches and sport representatives, going to be a problem. Interesting to note the minister is aware of that.

Mr. Stefanson: My point is, I am, from the information I have I am not aware that there is anything untoward with our athletes village compared to other Games that have been held in other parts of Canada or other countries in the world. They have been toured by the PASO organization. The issues like the food services and amenities have been reviewed, and there is no indication that PASO, sport-governing bodies, agencies, are concerned that our athletes village or housing of athletes are in any way lacking compared to what is normally provided for games of this nature and magnitude.

Mr. Chairperson: At this time, could I remind members that they might want to wait until the little red light goes on before they start to speak? Their mikes are not live until such time.

Ms. Cerilli: I am also wanting to get some clarification on the transportation policy for athletes. One of the documents the minister has provided for me says that all parties agree to develop and implement a transportation subsidization policy requiring that the organizing committee transport a minimum of 15 participants free of charge, and for each participant beyond 15, the costs would be no more than $185 U.S. per participant from an agreed-upon location.

Does the minister have a report that has been presented from the society that deals with the arrangements for transportation of athletes that would deal with each country and the cost for transporting athletes, where they are being transported from and that type of thing?

Mr. Stefanson: Again, we have discussed this in the past. The member knows that was part of the bid package for the 1999 Pan American Games for Winnipeg and Manitoba, and I think she is referring to one of the documents I tabled with her the other day, the co-operation agreements between the various countries and the Games committee and the government. Mr. Chairman, that refers to exactly what she talked about, the transportation subsidy based on a minimum of 15 participants free of charge and beyond 15, the cost no more than $185. I will undertake to provide her what information I can on a country-by-country basis relative to this transportation policy.

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Ms. Cerilli: Is there a different arrangement for the U.S. team in terms of the kind of funds that they are going to get? Who is paying the cost for the transportation for the U.S. team?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I will undertake to obtain information, as I have already said, on the relationship with all of the countries, including the United States.

Ms. Cerilli: One other concern that has been expressed is that we are not able to fulfill the requirement to have an ambulance at every venue to deal with any emergency that would arise and still have security for the population of Manitoba. How is this issue being addressed by the Pan Am Games Society?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, again, the April/May partners report touches on the issue of medical services on page 6. At this particular point in time the draft proposal for city ambulance coverage is being reviewed by the PAGS legal department. We were also waiting for the proposal at that time from the regional health authorities to provide rural ambulances. The draft agreement is to be presented to their executive committee on May 26, form the base of their subsequent agreements to be negotiated, the medical committee service providers to begin the process of scheduling our medical volunteers.

I am sure this is all being done as striking an appropriate balance in terms of having ambulance and medical services available within reasonable travel times to various venues, but also not in any way putting at risk or in jeopardy the services that they provide to the city of Winnipeg.

Ms. Cerilli: It has been suggested to us that this is not going as smoothly as the minister suggests, that there is concern. Is there going to be the purchase or hiring of emergency vehicles and paramedics from outside of Manitoba? It seems to me that when you have 5,000 athletes that are doing what they do, there may be a need to have additional emergency services. We know the emergency services have been stretched in the province of Manitoba just to cover the population that is here. That is without dealing with 5,000 athletes who are trying to have a peak athletic performance potentially in the blazing sun.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I will get the member a status report, but I think we have to show some degree of confidence in the people that have the expertise in this area, in terms of city ambulance providers, rural ambulance providers, RHAs, that they put together the proposals to strike the appropriate balance of providing service to the athletes, but also continuing to provide service to the citizens of Winnipeg and the people of Manitoba. I will get a status report, but I am confident that that is being addressed.

Ms. Cerilli: A couple more questions on this topic, though. Is this another area that is covered by agreement for international events such as the Pan Am Games, whether there is sort of a minimum requirement for emergency services for the protection of athletes? Is that something that is dealt with through PASO or any of the other organizations that deal with international amateur sport? My other question would be: is this one of the costs that will be borne as a line item through Manitoba Health's involvement in the Games?

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Mr. Stefanson: First of all, Mr. Chairman, the second question, there is no expenditure in Health to cover these services. They are being done from within the Pan Am Games operation. In terms of the spelling out within the agreement, I will have to check whether it is spelled out in any of these agreements, but again I think it is recognized that it is an important service to be provided for hosting the Games. We will confirm whether it is spelled out in any agreement.

Ms. Cerilli: I think so in terms of the new requirements there are in terms of these Games for security. There has also been some attention paid to the kind of protection in case there is any terrorism or emergencies. There probably are some requirements related to that aspect alone in terms of having emergency services available, so I am interested in finding that out.

The other thing is I go back to this agreement on the Pan Am Games. There is information in here about accreditation of provincial and related officials, and it suggests that there is going to be some kind of a pass or tickets or something given to the Lieutenant Governor and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and MLAs and cabinet. I just want to get some idea of what that involves. I was surprised to read that actually.

Mr. Stefanson: Starting on page 16 of the Pan Am Games Agreement that the member has a copy of, she can see the issues of accreditation. The first section, Section 14, is Accreditation of the Royal Family and Federal and Related Officials. Section 14.1 goes into detail on that, and 14.2. Section 15 is Accreditation of Provincial and Related Officials. It goes through basically a similar summary as for the federal government, and then Section 16 on page 18 shows Accreditation of Winnipeg and Related Officials. It is all spelled out in the agreement what the funding partners receive in terms of accreditation.

Ms. Cerilli: To differ with the minister, it is not clear what "accreditation" means. It says that they are supposed to be given appropriate accreditation and be treated as representative guests, no less than what a comparable representative of the levels of government or sponsors would receive, but that does not tell me what that is exactly. That is what I am asking you. I have the same pages in front of me. I said that is what has prompted my question.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I am told that for each of these sections it varies, each of these categories. If you look at Section 14 a. to h. or Section 15 a. to h., there are different packages in different areas having to do with things like access to VIP settings or accommodations, access to venues, to games, access to motor pools or vans that are shuffling people from venues, so it will vary in each of those elements. I am told that all of that is just in the process of being concluded.

Ms. Cerilli: So we do not quite know yet, but how will that be made known to the various targeted groups?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, it is all just being finalized, and I am assuming it can all be made public at that time in terms of the federal government, the provincial government, the City of Winnipeg, and so on.

Ms. Cerilli: I am looking on page 24 now of the same agreement, and 19.1 makes reference to Article 6. There are a number of other articles. Are those like an appendix for this agreement, and is that something that we could also get? Or is that Article 6 referring back to the other section that we were discussing before?

I will wait for the minister, but as I read it again I think it is more clear to me than when I was making my notes for questions. I think it is clear now that it refers back to No. 6 in the report. Maybe the minister can confirm that.

Mr. Stefanson: Well, Mr. Chairman, that is why I was not sure of the question, because if you read 19.1 it does refer back to Article 6, and it has notification provisions in this cause if the society felt they were going to run a deficit.

Ms. Cerilli: Yes, it is clear. One of the other issues is I would like to find out the type of insurance that the Games Society has and the amount of the insurance. There is some detail in here. I am also interested in finding out where that insurance policy is located.

Mr. Stefanson: Section 23 on page 26 goes into length on the whole issue of liability and indemnification. Section 23.7 on page 28 indicates the society of its expense, obtain and maintain all appropriate insurance coverage, including directors' and officers' liability, loss of revenue, and such other insurance as deemed necessary by the Risk Management Committee and so on. It talks about the extent of the coverage on page 29, so it goes into a great deal of detail about the insurance coverage requirements of the Pan Am Games.

Ms. Cerilli: My question was the cost for that policy and where it was from. Just confirming, I acknowledge that there was quite a bit of detail. I just want to confirm that that is indeed the insurance that has been secured.

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Mr. Stefanson: I am certain it has been secured, and I will undertake to provide information relative to the cost and the placement of that insurance.

Ms. Cerilli: Has the Pan Am Games Society had to incur any legal costs? You know, the agreement also outlines that there would be some protection for employees and that. What I am wondering is if the Pan Am Games Society has had to incur any legal costs incurred. Some discussion today about the number of employees that have left, some of them, I understand, have been let go. Any legal costs for those type of things or any other kind of disputes that may have arisen?

Mr. Stefanson: The Pan Am Games Society have in-house legal counsel. That is not to say they might not have incurred some external legal costs for some reason. I will inquire at the Pan Am Games and get back to the member.

Ms. Cerilli: I was just trying to find in the budget here, I have a list that we made up on the budget that does some of the work that I was asking the minister about in terms of the appropriations from different departments going towards the Pan Am Games. I wonder if he can confirm the in-kind services in the revised budget, the total amount for in-kind services.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, in terms of the Province of Manitoba, I believe our in-kind support is $500,000. I think I gave a status report to the member after the last Estimates. I will undertake to do the same in terms of our in-kind services.

Ms. Cerilli: I just want to clarify then, money that is expended from a department of the provincial government to the Pan Am Games, that is going to be over and above what is listed as in-kind services, that there are actually dollars flowing from some of the budgets from departments for the province, that it is not all in-kind services. That is one of the things that I am waiting for is an up-to-date list of not only the in-kind services, but the dollar amounts flowing from different departments or the dollar amounts allocated for expenditures in that department as well as for the Crown corporations.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the member is aware of our total financial commitments to the Games, and part of that is a commitment for $500,000 of in-kind services, which I will provide a status report for the member. We have also discussed issues that have an impact on the Games. Without repeating all of that, expenditures that are being incurred that will benefit the Games, but are being done for a number of other reasons as well. I have indicated I am going to canvass all the departments and determine what would fall under that area as best we can, that is the issue like the retention pond in Transcona and so on.

Mr. Chairman, we will also canvass any other expenditures related to the Games and coming from individual departments, not funding to the Pan Am Games Society, but expenditures being incurred as it relates to the Games.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, I will wait to get the minister's report. I was just looking at a list that was prepared for me by our caucus, so I will leave that and wait for the minister's report.

One of the other issues that I wanted to touch on, and I am just looking for where in the most recent updated report this is mentioned. I think it is mentioned in there that there are ongoing negotiations to deal with an aboriginal component. That would be, I guess, part of the festivals and trying to encourage aboriginal participation during the Games. Would the minister provide me with a status report on this component of the Games?

Mr. Stefanson: Yes, I will, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairperson: The hour being six o'clock, committee rise.

Call in the Speaker.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Marcel Laurendeau): The hour being six o'clock, this House now adjourns and stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow (Wednesday).