Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Would the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply will be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Sport. Would the minister's staff enter the Chamber at this time or whenever they get here. We are starting on 28.1. Sport (a) Support Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $15,400.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Chairperson, I am willing to start our discussions without the staff here, but one of the things that I am waiting for from the minister is the facilities funding and an up-to-date listing of the record of funding going to all the facilities and the type of upgrading they are receiving.

Of particular interest to me last week was the listing of the facilities that are being funded off budget, I guess you could say, in terms of the Games budget and are funded through various other programs, maybe the infrastructure program or WDA or other programs like that. So that is what I would like to see if the minister has it for me to start off with today.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister responsible for Sport): Mr. Chairman, I just received copies of two documents. One is a summary as of June 14, '99, today, of the Pan Am Games Society contribution to capital. It outlines all of their capital programs and what the Pan Am Games Society is putting into capital totalling $15,588,014.

At the request of the member, I have also received a summary of funding from two sources. One is the Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure Works Program for projects that have an impact on the Pan Am Games. As we discussed, they are being done for a number of reasons of which the Pan Am Games is one reason. I will table this under the Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure Works. The projects that are highlighted here are the Pan-Am Pool, the Riverside ball park, the Festival Park at The Forks, the Lake Minnedosa dredging, and the field hockey, East Side Eagles at Kildonan East school.

Also, there is some funding provided under the Canada-Manitoba Economic Development Partnership Agreement which has an impact, as well, on the Pan Am Games. The funding under here is the Gimli harbour expansion, the Aquatic hall of fame at the Pan-Am Pool and some capital improvements at the Winnipeg Stadium.

So I will table three copies of those two summaries, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairperson: Did the honourable minister want to introduce his staff present at this time?

Mr. Stefanson: Joining me is Mr. Jeff Hnatiuk, the president and CEO of Sport Manitoba.

I know it was not forwarded until today, but I believe the member hopefully received a three-page summary of the Pan American Games business plan which shows the revised business plan, along with some of the explanations of some of the shifts between some of the accounts. I will table this, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Cerilli: I just want to wait to look at the documents that I am going to receive. Just going then from–do you need to copy those? [interjection] Okay. I thought there were three documents that he was giving me.

An Honourable Member: I tabled three copies of two pages.

Ms. Cerilli: Oh, okay. Just a general comment before we get into the details of these facility lists, the minister in his comments while he was tabling this indicated that there was sort of two categories in his mind or in the mind of the government, he and his colleagues, with respect to the Pan Am Games.

He said that there were facilities that were not necessarily constructed for the Pan Am Games but were going to be used for the Pan Am Games as well as for other reasons. Would the minister not agree that all the facilities that are being used for the Pan Am Games would fall under that definition?

Mr. Stefanson: No, I would not agree with that because the Pan Am Games budget of the $15.5 million is primarily facility development that had to be done either to meet Games requirements or technical sport requirements that the society itself felt needed to be done to have the facilities at a certain standard to host the Games of those particular events. But some of the other ones, if the member were to look at the listing under the infrastructure and the economic agreement, I think she would recognize that those facility improvements can very much stand on their own. Obviously they do have a benefit to the Games. These venues could still have been held, by and large, irrespective of these improvements. Doing capital improvements at the stadium does not in any way take away from the ability to host the beach volleyball. It could have been held there with or without the capital improvements.

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The capital improvements at the stadium are being done to meet the long-term needs of that facility for football and other events, other gatherings. Certainly it will make the stadium a much more comfortable, attractive facility for the Pan Am Games. I think the same applies with most of these investments, that they will enhance these facilities for the Pan Am Games, but they were not required to meet the standards or the specifications or the ability to host these sports. Whereas obviously the Pan Am Games Society themselves felt that the $15.5 million either required meeting the standards in specifications or they as an organization felt these improvements were an important part of hosting the Games.

So there is a difference between the two capital investments, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Cerilli: So what the minister is trying to say is that certain of these facility improvements were not necessary in order for those facilities to be Pan Am Games standards facilities. Therefore, they are sort of in a separate category where they can stand alone. But he was saying earlier that these facilities were not necessarily needed for the Pan Am Games. So I guess what I am wanting to find out–because what the minister has not provided me is really what I asked for which is the total amount for all the facilities.

I would look at the one, for example, the field hockey venue at the Kildonan East school where that definitely previously would not have been the same kind of quality of facility. It previously was an artificial surface. So, in some cases, I guess my first point is that some of these facilities definitely are I think being changed to meet the standard for the Pan Am Games. But, more importantly, I am wanting an understanding of why the minister is sort of making this distinction between these different types of facilities.

Mr. Stefanson: Actually what I said when I was referring to the listing of projects done under the infrastructure and the economic development is to utilize these facilities, these improvements were not required at these facilities or other venues would have been utilized is what I indicated, because in some cases, in fact, she uses a good example, the field hockey East Side Eagles, in the absence of doing the improvements to that facility, that venue, that event would have been held elsewhere, probably at the stadium.

By enhancing that facility, obviously, we meet the field hockey needs of that sport for many years to come. It gives that sport an opportunity to host national and international events which we did not have a field, I am told, that met those kinds of standards and qualifications. Done properly, we all know the benefits of hosting national and international events in terms of the sport and the community and the economics, and so on. So the facilities listed under the infrastructure works and partnership, if those improvements were not done, those sports could still have been held as part of the Pan Am Games. They just either would have been held in these facilities without these improvements or they would have been held at other venues.

Ms. Cerilli: My point then is that the minister's claim and the way he is distinguishing these different sort of categories and facilities, the ones that are funded by the Pan Am Games and the ones that are funded off the budget and by other programs, is a little bit false. I have just given one example, and he has agreed with me that facility would not have been used for a Pan Am Games facility if it was not for these other upgrades. So to me, that is one example of a facility that should be in the same category as the ones that are funded under the Pan Am Games even though it is being funded under the Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure Program.

I guess one of the reasons I am belabouring this point though is because I want to go through and get a more accurate picture on the total amount of dollars that is being spent by public partnerships or public partners on Pan Am Games facilities. I am going to go through each of these ones based on just the list that the minister has provided me with, because there are a number on here that are not provided by either Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure Works or the Canada-Manitoba Economic Development Agreement.

So I am going to start off then. If the minister has another comment, he can let me know, or he can just make it when I ask about the Birch Ski Area. The list you have given me has shown only $15,000 from the Pan Am Games budget. How much additional money, and what program is it from for the Birch Ski Area?

Mr. Stefanson: Well, first of all, in terms of the member's last comment before the question, well, she is not right to suggest–I do not know how she worded it–that I was providing false information to say that there were these different categories. Probably the simplest way to describe it is that the projects under the infrastructure and the Economic Development Partnership Agreement would basically have gone ahead with or without the Pan Am Games. Maybe that is the best way to describe it for her. The stadium needed improvements. We needed a new ball diamond in Winnipeg; I think we all recognized that. Some of the improvements in communities like Minnedosa and Gimli and so on are improvements required irrespective of the Pan Am Games. So that is the difference that I have been trying to explain to her in various ways.

The information that I have would indicate that for the Birch Ski Area, there is no other contribution to the capital. The capital totals $15,309,216, but I am told that the $25,000 is the total capital facility upgrade at the Birch Ski Area.

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Ms. Cerilli: The numbers that the minister has just quoted do not correspond with what he has provided me with. I have something that says June 14, 1999, and Birch Ski Area is the first on the list, and it only has $15,000 under PAGS's contribution. So what I am wanting to do as well is just clarify–I am going from another list–which venue this is. I thought that that area was going to be used for the mountain bike venue. I cannot find it on my list here now. So, if the minister could clarify what the venue is being used for–if it is not on the list–which sport it is being used for, the program that the additional money is coming from, and the total amount of the additional money. Maybe we are going to have to then clarify each dollar figure that is on the list, because it seems as if the minister is using a different chart now than I am.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the member is right to be using the June 14, 1999 list which shows Birch Ski Area at $15,000. She was asking about the event taking place. I had a two-page summary document, which is obviously outdated, that showed a preliminary estimate some time ago of $25,000; that is why I said $25,000. But the member is correct that the most current capital cost for the Birch Ski Area is the $15,000, and the event that is taking place at the Birch Ski is the cycling mountain bike activities for men and women.

Ms. Cerilli: So I do not understand then why this facility is on this list. Is the minister then saying that this list is all the facilities that are being upgraded, whether they have additional funding or not? Because I thought we were getting a list that was all the additional facilities that were not necessarily from Pan Am Games money.

Mr. Stefanson: I think I can make this perfectly clear, Mr. Chairman. The list totalling $15,588,014, headed up The Pan Am Games Society, June 14, 1999, that is money being spent by the Pan Am Games Society on facilities. It is straight out of their budget.

The second page is what officials were able to pull together from two funding sources that we recognize have a relationship back to the Pan Am Games in terms of some of the projects. That was the Infrastructure Works and the Economic Development Partnership Agreement.

The one component that we have not had an opportunity to finalize is if there are any departmental expenditures that have any relationship to any of these projects. The one that was just mentioned to me is probably a very good example. I do not think there would be many that would fall in that category.

But one that I think is a very good example would be the one that the member is very familiar with, and that is the retention pond out in Transcona, where we put money into that project through the urban capital funding agreement with the City of Winnipeg. To me, again, that would fall in that other kind of category that I am describing to the member where it is done for a whole number of reasons in terms of drainage and so on, but obviously it also had the added benefit of being able to be used for the Pan Am Games. It is going to have a long-term benefit for waterskiing in Manitoba. It is very important, as she knows better than I, to that part of the city in terms of drainage.

So there could be a couple of areas where there has been a departmental expenditure that was done that is being done again because it needs to be done for other reasons, but it will have the added benefit of impacting the Pan Am Games. Certainly that one comes to mind. There might be one of two others. As we go through, we will try to highlight where they might be, and then we can certainly go back and get the funding allocation. I cannot recall the dollars that were committed to the retention pond, but we can certainly get those for the member.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, then I am not completely satisfied with the information that the minister has given me, so I am going to take the time and go through these facilities, because this is an important issue, the public money going to facilities, which is part of the legacy of the Games, and the fact that such a small percentage of the actual Pan Am Games budget is going to facilities. Now we are finding out that there are more and more facilities that are funded through these other government expenditures and other government programs I think is an important matter. So I appreciate that the minister is going to go through each of these individually.

I would suggest that the example he has given of the lake in south Transcona is the only one that I think is sort of in this separate category, because the retention lake which is to address the flooding problem is an infrastructure kind of program that definitely would have been hopefully done without having the Pan Am Games, but all these other facilities are sports facilities anyway. What we are really talking about is two differing ways of funding Pan Am Games upgrading of sports facilities. The minister can disagree with me on that matter and he may do that, but I think in terms of the public what we want to ensure is we know exactly how much money is being spent prior to the Pan Am Games for all these sport facility upgrades that are going to be used for the Pan Am Games. That is what I want to spend some time clarifying.

I am going by some old lists for facilities from 1997, which is all that I have, plus what the minister has given me. I just want to clarify then, the list that the minister is giving me is not an exhaustive list then of all the facilities for the Pan Am Games that have had upgrading. This short list, there is one, two, three, four, five, six–26 items I believe on there. My point is then the list that I am going to be using is not complete, that I am going to have to go back to these other venue lists from '97.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I believe that the list would certainly encompass the facilities that received financial support. We will cross-reference it back to the overall venues. There might be a difference of a handful of locations, but this list is fairly comprehensive and I think it will be worthwhile to spend a minute running through them. Outside of the listing that we have given the member from the infrastructure and the partnership agreement, we were just discussing what venues might have received some support from government for other reasons.

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The only two venues that come to mind are the one we have already discussed at length which is the tension pond or lake in Transcona, and the other one is some paving that was done at Birds Hill Park which will enhance that facility for triathlon cycling and I believe roller sports, but those are the only two that come to mind. I think if we go through it, we will certainly undertake to follow up with departments, but those are the only two outside of the infrastructure and the partnership that come to mind at this particular point in time.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, let us go through it because the next one on the list is Birds Hill Park. This is one of the ones I was asking about the other day because I have some information that the equestrian upgrades may be one that was done with some revenue from one of the provincial government departments.

I do not know if that one was on the infrastructure list. No, it is not, so can the minister give me a clarification on that? Are the equestrian upgrades at Birds Hill–so far, Pan Am Games has spent over a million dollars there. Are there any additional funds? If you do not have the dollar figure from the department, just even indicate that it indeed has more money, and you can provide that for me on another day.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, what I will do is give the member the best information we have today, but we will double-check everything we provide her just to be absolutely certain we have not missed something. But I am told there was no additional support provided from the Province of Manitoba from either an infra-structure or partnership or a line department towards improvements for the equestrian site at Birds Hill Park.

Ms. Cerilli: The other one you had mentioned at Birds Hill, though, was the triathlon in cycling. Was there additional money there and how much?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, as I indicated, Birds Hill Park is an area where some work was done on the roadways in terms of resurfacing and upgrading. I believe there was also some dredging and some water quality issues in the lake there as well. So I know that there were provincial government expenditures in the park that will benefit the Games, and I would put this in the same kind of category as we discussed the retention lake. I do not have the dollar amount here, but we will obtain that dollar amount and provide it to the member.

Ms. Cerilli: So I am to take it, then, that was paid for by the Department of Natural Resources?

Mr. Stefanson: I believe that is correct, that they have responsibility for the park, but whether all of the funding source for whatever was done there came from that department–I will confirm both the amount and the departmental funding source for the member.

Ms. Cerilli: The next one on there is the CanWest Global Park. This one also poses the question: with these facilities that are going to be used for the Pan Am Games, was there a requirement or agreement that, if the facility was going to be used for the Pan Am Games, the Pan Am Games Society had to contribute part of the funding?

Mr. Stefanson: The short answer is yes, Mr. Chairman. One of the conditions of the funding from the Pan Am Games Society was obviously utilization for the Games. One of the conditions of funding from the Province of Manitoba was access for amateur sport to the facility. But I think this is a good case in point. Had the Pan Am Games not invested money in this facility and been part of the catalyst to build a brand-new baseball park in downtown Winnipeg, they would have had to invest money somewhere else in some facility upgrade to host the baseball in Winnipeg. So what ended up happening here is that, with their investment, they were able to dedicate it to this project along with funding from other levels of government and obviously significant funding from the private sector. I believe that, with the Pan Am Games contributing their $842,000, along with money from other levels of government and a significant contribution from the private sector, we were able to put in place a fine baseball stadium in downtown Winnipeg.

Ms. Cerilli: The whole point of doing this, Mr. Minister, is that we get the dollar figures. I am going from memory, but I thought the public money into that stadium was about $4 million. Do you have the actual figure for the money? Which allocation does that come from? Oh, no, it is called riverside park on this list. So it is $4.5 million, and $1.5 million of that is Manitoba money. So I can look at that list.

The next one is the Gimli Yacht Club. That is going to be used for sailing, I believe. Are there any other sports that are going to be used there? I can look at the list, and the minister can confirm if the total cost for that is $1.2 million. I just want a brief description of what was done to that facility so that it is up to standard for the Pan Am Games.

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Mr. Stefanson: The member indicated she wanted the money on that last project, and that is why I did not elaborate on it because it was on the list in terms of the provincial support for Riverside ballpark at $1.5 million.

On the issue of the Gimli Yacht Club, the member is correct that that will be hosting the sailing venue. Again, as she noted herself, under the Canada-Manitoba Economic Development Partnership Agreement, the Province of Manitoba is putting $600,000 in, along with the federal government and I believe the Town of Gimli as well, to a Gimli harbourfront expansion. Again, this falls in that same category that I have outlined for her for the Transcona lake or Birds Hill, where a new breakwater was put in place in the harbour area, a new harbour created. That harbour was dredged, and it has significantly increased the capacity of the harbour at Gimli to obviously dock and host a combination of sailboats, motor boats or other boats that can be utilized on Lake Winnipeg.

So it falls in that same category where it is a significant improvement to the harbour, the harbour capacity, and it involved the construction of a breakwater and the dredging of a harbour.

Ms. Cerilli: What I am wondering here, as the minister sort of suggested, is these were improvements that were not necessarily sport-related. The breakwater and the dredging are of benefit to the harbour beyond the use of sport. Is that correct?

Mr. Stefanson: That is absolutely correct, but for the Games it enhances the whole harbour and the access. The new harbour addition is in closer proximity to the Yacht Club and so on. So there is a benefit to the Pan Am Games, but, again, the venue could have been hosted in the absence of these improvements, but these improvements will enhance the venue for the Games. But more importantly is what the member said, that it provides an expanded harbour for the community and region of Gimli.

Ms. Cerilli: The next facility is the Glen Murphy Range which I guess is used for different shooting events. Can the minister explain the $50,000 that was Pan Am Games money, what that went towards in terms of improvement? Were there any additional funds from other sources for that facility?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the Glen Murphy Range will be hosting the pistol and the rifle events. It is located on Miller Road off Provincial Highway No. 8, three kilometres north of the Perimeter Highway. The improvements are permanent facility upgrades, and it currently consists of 25 millimetre rapid fire range, with six bays and so on.

I need to get the details. Most of these brief sheets I have give at least some indication of the facility upgrades. This one just says they are of a permanent nature, and I would imagine it is to the physical structure which was the venue for shooting back in 1967. It was also the venue during the 1990 Western Canada Games, but I can certainly undertake to provide a few more details on the nature of the permanent upgrades of Glen Murphy Range.

Ms. Cerilli: And there is no additional funding then, other than $50,000 for the Pan Am Games Society?

Mr. Stefanson: Again, the information I have is that there is no additional funding, outside of the Pam American Games Society money, for this project.

Ms. Cerilli: We are down to Grant Park High School which I show on the list that I have as going to be a roller sport track, and it shows here $40,000. What did the $40,000 go to in terms of upgrading? Was there additional money?

Mr. Stefanson: The member is correct. It is roller speed skating, and what is being done at Grant Park High School is a new asphalt track located behind Grant Park High School being laid and put in place. Again, the information I have is that there is no other provincial money going into this project.

Ms. Cerilli: Next on the list is the Investors Group Athletic Centre. Am I to understand that we no longer call the U of M stadium the Pan Am stadium? Is that what that refers to? That has a $6 million figure attached to it, that is Pan Am Games money. Is there any additional money, and what was the improvement at that facility?

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Mr. Stefanson: No, I want to let the member know that the Pan Am stadium is still in place and still is called the Pan Am stadium. This is a brand new building called the Investors Group Athletic Centre, and it will house the basketball, the volleyball and the gymnastics in a new facility, basically adjacent to Max Bell Arena. I think it is right adjacent to Max Bell Arena.

I am told the total project cost was a little under $9 million, and that the Investors Group Athletic Centre, the University of Manitoba retained the naming rights, and obviously a deal was made between them and the Investors Group. That balance of funding of roughly $2.3 million was put in place through the university. Again, the information I have is there was no other provincial money provided for this project, but, as I said with all of these, I will do one more double-check of all of them and provide the member again, either verbally or in writing, with a final summary, but I am told there was no other provincial money put into the project.

Ms. Cerilli: I understand, then, this is replacing what was the called the old east gym at the University of Manitoba, and my understanding from the minister that sounds like the additional $2.3 was not public money but was likely from the Investors Group, which then gave them the right to name it. Or maybe some of that was public money from the university.

Mr. Stefanson: The member is basically correct. The information I have is that arrangement was made between the university and Investors. At this point we are not privy to the details. Obviously, they made a contribution against that 2.3 million. Whatever that was and/or the residual came from those kinds of funding sources, I am told, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Cerilli: The next one on the list is the John Blumberg Softball Complex. Just a little bit of information about what the upgrades were, if there is any additional funding other than the $320,000 from PAGS, any additional funding, and what that funding was for?

Mr. Stefanson: The John Blumberg Softball Complex will obviously host the men's and women's softball events. This facility was originally built for the 1990 Western Canada Summer Games, hosted a number of special events, local, provincial, national championships over the years. Again, the improvements here are shown as permanent facility upgrades. Unfortunately, on this one, I do not have a great deal more detail, but I will certainly get those details. I am also told we do not believe there was any other provincial money put into this facility, but there may well have been a contribution either from the City of Winnipeg or from softball groups themselves. We will undertake to get further details as to whether or not there were any other contributions to this facility. The information I have is that there was no other provincial money beyond well into this project.

Ms. Cerilli: Sort of a side issue that occurs to me as we were discussing these facilities for softball and baseball is that there are both sports, softball and baseball, at the Games, or am I wrong interpreting that? Is there women's softball or baseball or is that where the distinction is drawn?

Mr. Stefanson: Yes, there is both baseball and softball. Baseball is being of course held at the CanWest Global Park, and it is just men. Softball is of course at the John Blumberg Softball Complex, and it is both men and women.

Ms. Cerilli: The next on the list is Kildonan East school, which we have had some discussion about already, is actually going to be some kind of permanent facility I take it for the football club. It is being used for field hockey. Can the minister tell me what the upgrades are and if there was additional then the $400,000 and where the additional money was from? It is on the next list.

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Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, as the member knows, the Kildonan East facility will host the field hockey, both men and women. As she noted on the list, $400,000 from the Pan Am Games Society and a contribution of $500,000 each from the provincial and federal governments, and there were further contributions from field hockey, the community and the East Side Eagles organization. I would have to get those amounts, and, again, I think as the members knows the most significant cost attached to this was the purchase and installation of the artificial turf. I believe it was in the range of at least a million dollars of the cost of the project.

Ms. Cerilli: I am particularly interested in this facility, because it is one of the two that we have that is sort of in the northeast quadrant of the city. I was just there recently, and they were installing the surface. I am wondering if you can give me more information about what kind of facilities are going to be permanent there in terms of the different sports that are going to be able to use that upgraded facility. Especially if it is going to be artificial turf, is it going to be available for a variety of different sports?

Just continuing on then, while they are deliberating, the other matter with regard to this facility is then it is only $1 million of public money.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I am told that that facility will be suitable for, obviously, field hockey, football, soccer and potentially field lacrosse. As well, the member will note on the summary of the Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure Works projects, under the conditions of that funding, each level of government put in a maximum of up to one-third, and the other third could come from any one of a number of sources. As I say, the federal government were putting in one-third, the provincial government were putting in one-third, the other third could come from a combination of sources being either municipal, the City of Winnipeg, fundraising, whatever other activity. So as outlined there, the province put $500,000 in and the federal government put $500,000 in.

Ms. Cerilli: The minister may have answered this question earlier. I am not sure if I asked it the other day because we were talking about this facility a little bit earlier, but will the track around the infield, obviously, the sports the minister just mentioned do not use the track. I was there at the track the other day and that was all being resurfaced as well. I am hoping that that is going to also be upgraded to some type of artificial turf as well, and that will be available to the school and the local community as a running track. Is that the case?

Mr. Stefanson: Rather than speculate on precisely what is happening with the track, and I do not have that information here. I will undertake to provide the member with further details on the plans for the track.

Ms. Cerilli: Okay, I would appreciate that. We will move on then to Lake Minnedosa. My old list says that this is going to be used for canoeing, kayaking and rowing. Can the minister confirm that or clarify it, and tell me if there were any additional funds for the upgrades there, what the upgrades were and any additional money beyond the $195,000 from the Pan Am Games Society?

Mr. Stefanson: The member is correct that this venue will be used for canoeing, kayaking and rowing for both men and women. If the member were to look on the summary of financial support for the Infrastructure Works Program, you will notice under the Town of Minnedosa, Lake Minnedosa, dredging, a total project there of $1,274,000, of which the province contributed $424,870, the federal government contributed the same amount. As I explained with this program, the other one-third would come from other sources, in this case, most notably the municipality, the Town of Minnedosa. This is one of those projects that falls in a similar area to the Transcona retention pond, Birds Hill, Gimli harbour.

There was a need to significantly improve the lake in terms of its silt buildup and so on, Mr. Chairman, and that was the nature of that project which again just enhances the utilization of the lake for these events for the Pan Am Games.

Ms. Cerilli: I am assuming, though, that the rowing is also taking place in Winnipeg at our wonderful new rowing club that is on the river right in the heart of the city. So are there two rowing venues? Can the minister explain this?

Mr. Stefanson: My information shows the venue, as we have already discussed for rowing, being Lake Minnedosa, and the rowing club site would be used basically as a training site during the Games, but I will confirm that for the member.

Ms. Cerilli: Is that because the river configuration at the rowing club is not suitable for an international rowing competition?

Mr. Stefanson: I believe that may be one of the reasons as well for certain races. I am told there is the issue of the number of lanes that are required, as many as eight lanes for certain races. I think an added point for Lake Minnedosa was the fact that it was used as the venue for the 1997 Canada Summer Games, and it received a number of accolades from all participants, from organizers, as a world-class event for a number of reasons in terms of its ability to handle the scope of races, the nature of the lake, as well for the fans and so on. I think it is a combination of reasons that the Pan Am Games Society has decided this is the most appropriate venue.

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Ms. Cerilli: On a bit of a digression, I guess from our process of going through this list. I want to raise another matter with respect to paddling, water sports. I am aware that a couple years ago there was a group trying to put together a proposal to include whitewater canoeing and kayaking. There was a proposal to either have it at the old Pinawa dam site or, I think, another site on the Whitemouth River, if I remember correctly. Hydro was interested. There was going to have to be some investment in renovations, particularly at the old Pinawa dam site, but that was going to be seen as something that would, again, use the natural attributes of that region and starting to develop some of the potential for attracting more whitewater enthusiasts into that area of the province.

What happened to that proposal? I know part of it was done sort of late because there was an agreement, I believe, that any sport that was going to be in the Australia Olympics would be in the Pan Am Games, and that it was sort of right after the Sydney Olympics agreed to have whitewater paddling sports that they decided to try and get them also into the Pan Am Games. I am interested in getting some explanation of how far along that proposal got. I do not believe that it was successful. I have not heard anything, but I am wondering if I can get an explanation of that.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I will get a status report, so to speak, for the member, and provide that to her.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, I would just like a little bit more information from the minister now if he is aware of this. A status report suggests that maybe I am mistaken and that it is still going forward, but I would think at this late stage that there would have been something publicly, and it is possible that I missed it. Can the minister tell me just briefly then where this is at?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I certainly did not mean to imply that it is going ahead as a Pan Am sport or an activity in the 1999 Pan Am Games. I used the reference "status report" just to provide the member with a summary of what has really happened with that entire issue.

Ms. Cerilli: Maybe the minister could also look into the whole concept of having something like this as a demonstration sport and explain what is involved in having a sport become a demonstration sport, because there is a huge potential in the area. There was a lot of interest by some of the local towns and municipalities in having some of the kind of investment that has come to other areas come to those regions for this type of activity, which would then attract a lot of tourism and recreation into that area. There already is paddling that is done on the old channel for the Pinawa channel, but to have it improved and made up to the standard to host major events, that would be I think a real bonus for the province.

So I am wondering if the minister could also tell me if this is something that the province is going to consider anyway, even above and beyond the Pan Am Games.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, interestingly, some people have expressed as a caution the fact that the Pan Am Games have 41 sports currently, that that is a significant number of sporting events. Obviously, the Games, the events that are held are done through the Pan Am Sports Organization, the various sport governing bodies and the host society.

But in terms of the member's specific question, as I have already indicated, I will look into the issue and get back to her.

Ms. Cerilli: I guess I am a little surprised that the minister would not have some more information from his staff on that kind of an issue. Like I said, there was a lot of work that went into proposals. I am aware of meetings that were held where people were there from Hydro, from different municipalities, from a variety of different sports and different groups, from I think even some other corporate people from some of those communities.

So I guess I am just saying I am surprised the minister would not have a little bit more information for me on that kind of an issue. Can the minister explain that?

Mr. Stefanson: Well, Mr. Chairman, I am just being repetitive. I am certainly prepared to look into the issue, and I am not aware of any request for support that has come into my office, the Ministry of Sport.

Ms. Cerilli: Okay, I guess that would explain why the minister would not know about it and is maybe suggesting that the proposal did not even make it as far as becoming an official proposal. I will have to wait for that to be clarified.

So I will move on then back to our list here. I think we are at the low-lying bridge at The Forks. We are talking about the kind of upgrade that was done. I do not think that is a venue for a sport. So this is a bit of a different one. It got $835,287 from Pan Am Games money. I do not know if that is part of Festival Park or not, but the minister can clarify that for us.

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Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, my understanding as to why it is on the list is, of course, that these are capital costs and capital expenditures that are listed on this project listing of $15.588 million. In terms of all of the elements of this project, I will have to get those for the member. I will have to confirm whether or not there was any Province of Manitoba money in that project. The Province of Manitoba has invested in various initiatives at The Forks, as the member is well aware, but this is a separate project from the Festival Park, which is shown on the infrastructure works listing. So I will get further details of the nature of the $835,000 spent.

Ms. Cerilli: I am beginning to wonder what kind of information the minister has over there in terms of what is happening with this capital budget. But I will move on. The next facility is listed as The Maples complex. It is not clear to me at all what sport is being staged there or if there are any other monies, or if the minister could clarify what the upgrades were.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, The Maples complex is going to be utilized for modern pentathlon, both men and women. It is going to be used for fencing for both men and women and for some elements of pistol and rifle. I am told that the $40,000 investment is the only investment, that there was no further provincial investment. Again, I will confirm that. I gather for the first time all five disciplines of the modern pentathlon are being held together in one complex. As a result of that, some of these improvements of $40,000 are required.

Mr. Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee to take five minutes?

An Honourable Member: No.

Ms. Cerilli: I was just going to finish this thing.

My question with regard to The Maples complex was the kinds of improvements that are being made there or the kinds of changes and how that was going to sort of relate to the general public after the Games.

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Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I think the one benefit is, as I already said, for the first time all five of these disciplines of the modern pentathlon can be held together in one complex, that is shooting, fencing, swimming, equestrian and running are held at a combination of The Maples complex, the Seven Oaks Swimming Pool and The Maples field. The test event, I am told, was very well received by the participants, and it was well attended, I believe, by our people in the community and the people in the city. So that certainly is one of the ongoing benefits.

In terms of the detailed breakdown of what the $40,000 was precisely used for, I will undertake to get that information for the member.

Mr. Chairperson: We will take five.

________

Mr. Chairperson: The committee will come to order.

Ms. Cerilli: Slow going here today. Continuing on with this process of trying to identify in each facility the nature of the upgrades, the funding source, and funding allocation and the use that that facility is going to have at the Pan Am Games, so we will just continue with that. We are at the Pan-Am Pool. I understand there are a couple of different improvements here. Maybe the minister could clarify. I know that this is one of the venues that are on the list for the Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure Works, but I like to sort of have a distinction, if the minister could, between monies that went to the actual sports facilities and money that went to what I would call the foyer facelift for the Pan-Am Pool. Do you have that kind of information? Again, just put the dollar figures on the record.

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Mr. Stefanson: Of course, the Pan-Am Pool is used for a number of swimming events and diving events and synchronized swimming and water polo events. As the member can see from the information provided, the Pan Am Games Society is contributing $625,000, and if she were to look at the second sheet which shows the infrastructure works program and the partnership program the first project that has a relationship to the pool was the redevelopment of the roadway system and the lot and so on, which were done in conjunction with the City of Winnipeg and the federal government under their Welfare to Work Project, project of $500,000 split a third, a third, a third. A second project that was done there were some significant improvements to the Pan Am facility itself. That is a project of $1.5 million with $523,000 coming from the federal government, the same from the provincial, and the remainder from a combination of the city and Pan Am Games, and so on. That is some of the major reconfiguring of the whole facility. A number of the rooms and the main entranceway, and so on, were all done, in part, under that program, Mr. Chairman.

The third element is under the partnership where a contribution was recently made to the Aquatic Hall of Fame, with the federal and provincial governments each contributing $433,000 and the Aquatic Hall of Fame organization coming up through various means with the other one-third contribution. That is a combination of again some physical redevelopment and putting in place that facility.

Ms. Cerilli: Rather than what is listed there on the two sheets, there is no other additional funding into the Pan-Am Pool?

Mr. Stefanson: That certainly covers any of the contributions from the Province of Manitoba. I think it would cover the contributions certainly from the federal government. It would cover the majority, if not all, of the contributions from the City of Winnipeg. We would have to check if the City of Winnipeg had any other contributions, recognizing it is basically their facility and they run the facility, but I believe this covers most, if not all.

Ms. Cerilli: I think I am going to come back to the Pan-Am Pool at another time. I will just keep going on the list then. Red River College, it is listed here on this list as a soccer venue. Can the minister clarify if that is indeed the case and if that venue has any additional revenue and the source of that revenue beyond the $230,000 from the Pan Am Games Society and what the upgrades to the college facility were?

Mr. Stefanson: Red River College is being utilized for two venues. The Red River College gymnasium is being utilized for table tennis, both men's and women's, and the Red River College soccer fields are being utilized for women's soccer. The improvements that are being done here are a permanent construction of two soccer pitches. So the existing athletic fields are being upgraded for the 1999 Pan American Games through the construction of two permanent soccer pitches.

Ms. Cerilli: I am assuming then from your answer that there are no additional funds. Is that the case?

Mr. Stefanson: None that I am aware of, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Cerilli: Does that mean yes or no, Mr. Minister?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, it means exactly what I have said on a couple of occasions, that I will provide the best information that we have. We will double-check everything to make sure there are no other provincial government sources. I am not aware of any other provincial government sources into this project.

Ms. Cerilli: The Red River Ex site is being used for equestrian, and the Velodrome, according to this list. For equestrian, is there an indication of what the upgrading is for, any additional revenue toward it other than the $90,000 from the Pan Am Games?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the Red River Ex park site is being used for the equestrian show jumping, five medal events, individual competition and team competition.

Again, in terms of the information I have, there was no additional provincial money put into this project, and I am told in addition to the main ring, there are two warm-up rings and that two barns have been retrofitted and a new barn has been added. These can now accommodate a total, I am told, of 133 horses.

Ms. Cerilli: How about on the Velodrome then, the same questions.

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Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the Red River Exhibition park site is also the site for track cycling, 18 medal events for both men and women. Again, my information would indicate there were no additional provincial dollars into the Velodrome development, but I believe there may well have been some additional dollars from potentially the City of Winnipeg and others. We will certainly undertake to try to obtain that information in terms of any other contributions to the Velodrome facility.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, the Velodrome has actually been one of the facilities that has been an issue in terms of the quality of the facility. I am wondering if the minister could clarify what the plans are going to be in terms of provision of a velodrome. I understand it is going to be a temporary site. It is not going to be a permanent fixture. Could you just explain what it is that is going to be available?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I am told no final decision has been made on that facility, that discussions are ongoing with the cycling association about the future of the facility. I will certainly undertake to provide a current status report on those discussions.

Ms. Cerilli: I just want to clarify what the minister means. The facility is going to be a temporary facility. Is what is still up in the air the final location of where it is going to be housed or who will have responsibility for making that decision? What is the nature of the negotiations with the cycling association?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I am told that facility can be left where it is or it could be moved, or it could be sold. Those are the discussions that are taking place between the Red River Ex and the cycling association in terms of the ongoing utilization of the facility and obviously the issue of the ongoing costs of operating the facility.

Ms. Cerilli: Let us move on then to the Stonewall Quarry Park, the same kind of issues there, what is being hosted there, any additional revenue besides what is listed from the Pan Am Games and the types of upgrading that occurred there.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the Stonewall Quarry Park is a secondary site for baseball. I am told there have been some other contributions to the development of that site, but I do not believe any of them have come from the provincial government, although I will confirm that, but that there have been contributions, I believe, from the town itself and some others for just enhancements to that site.

Ms. Cerilli: I am not sure what it means that it is a secondary site. Does it mean that it will be used in the preliminary games or rounds and not in the finals, or is it a backup site? What does that mean?

Mr. Stefanson: That is basically correct. It will be the home to some of the games, but the finals will be played at the larger facility where they can accommodate greater crowds, Mr. Chairman. But they are one of the two sites for some of the games.

Ms. Cerilli: I do not know if you explained the kinds of upgrading–and if you have a list that you could provide at the end of all this that outlines the kinds of improvements. That is what I was sort of raising earlier. I am surprised you do not have this with you that gives a little more detailed explanation about the kinds of improvements to these facilities.

Mr. Stefanson: I will certainly undertake to provide what I can in writing back to the member, backing up everything we have discussed this afternoon and providing any further details on some of these venues that we are able to, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Cerilli: The University of Winnipeg Duckworth Centre is next on the list. It only, on this list, received $10,000 from the Pan Am Games Society. Is there any other funding, and what was the upgrade there and the sport that is going to be there as well?

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Mr. Stefanson: The Duckworth Centre is hosting boxing, karate and is one of the host sites for racquetball. Again, I am told there are no other provincial dollars, that the capital cost here is the $10,000 and that it primarily pertains to the boxing ring.

Ms. Cerilli: Just to clarify, when the minister says he is not aware of any other funding, there may be some city or federal funding. He is saying that there is no other provincial funding that he is aware of?

Mr. Stefanson: I want to make it clear when I say that, I am referring to provincial funding, because that is the funding we have control over. On a number of projects I have tried to be co-operative and outline that there are other contributors, that we will undertake to try and find out if the City of Winnipeg contributes to the Pan-Am Pool or whatever. But when I am saying no other funding, I am referring to funding that we have direct control over. But recognizing we have gone into this discussion about where does one draw the line, whether an investment is benefiting the Pan Am Games or not, we are trying to be as inclusive as we can to say, okay, if you are doing some improvements at a site, there can be a benefit to the Pan Am Games as well and undertaking to relate that back to any of these projects.

Ms. Cerilli: The University of Manitoba Max Bell facility is being resurfaced, I am aware of that, inside. I understand it is being used as a warm-up facility for the track and it may be used as other things too. The minister can clarify that. I am wanting to know if there is any other additional funding.

Mr. Stefanson: The member is correct that the Max Bell Centre arena is being used for roller sports, artistic and hockey. I believe she is also correct that the majority of the dollars are being used for the resurfacing of the track. I am not aware of any additional provincial dollars going into this project, although I do believe that some additional dollars were invested that might well have come from the university. We will undertake to provide those details.

Ms. Cerilli: Now we are at the U of M stadium. Same kinds of questions there, types of upgrades, the additional costs, the sports that are going to be there.

Mr. Stefanson: The University of Manitoba stadium is being used, of course, for athletics, some 46 medal events, both men and women, and the majority of this allocation is going to the resurfacing of the track.

I am not aware of any other provincial dollars invested in this project, or any other dollars, but again we will undertake to see if there were any other contributions from the university or any other organization.

Ms. Cerilli: How about the roadways that are being built to take athletes from the Max Bell Centre, when they have finished their warmup, to the U of M Pan Am stadium? I understand that those are going to be temporary roadways. Is that part of this budget, or is that an additional line somewhere?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, there is no way of telling that from the information I have here. I will undertake to get back to the member on that.

Ms. Cerilli: We are nearing the bottom of this list in term of new facilities or facility upgrades. The Winnipeg Lawn Tennis Club is receiving $550,000 from the Pan Am Games. Is there any additional funding? What kind of upgrades are they getting there and explanation of the sports?

Mr. Stefanson: The Winnipeg Lawn Tennis Club, of course, will host men's and women's tennis. It is at Wildewood Park. The Lawn Tennis was built in 1973. It is part of the overall larger Wildewood Club development. This money is being used for permanent court resurfacing and some clubhouse reconstruction costs.

Again, to the best of my knowledge and our information, there is no additional provincial money in this project. There could be a little bit of additional support from the club itself or other sources. This is certainly the majority of money, I am told, but we will undertake to see if there were any other contributions.

Ms. Cerilli: The Winnipeg Soccer Complex. This is another venue that has been a bit of a complicated one and a problematic one. I am wanting to just get some information about–the actual dollars listed here are $680,000. If there is any additional money from anywhere, and what actually the improvements are, including the seating, which has been an issue? I think we heard earlier that the women's soccer is at a different venue, so this is just for the men's soccer, I believe. Can the minister clarify that?

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Mr. Stefanson: The Winnipeg Soccer Complex is being used for all of the men's events and the playoffs for the women's, the semifinals, and final matches. I am told that this investment from the Pan Am Games is the total investment. There is no other provincial money in the project. The money is mostly going for additional permanent seating and lighting enhancements at the facility.

Ms. Cerilli: How about the Winnipeg Trap and Skeet centre or facility? I am not sure where that is actually. The minister can clarify that, as well as any additional money beyond the $120,000, clarification on the upgrades.

Mr. Stefanson: The Winnipeg Trap and Skeet Club of course is hosting trap and skeet. It hosted the trap and skeet shooting competitions during the 1967 Pan Am Games. That is located near Oak Bluff, Manitoba. It is a national training site and the site of many national and international meets. They received some renovations back in 1990 and at that time played host to the 1990 Western Canada Summer Games. This money is I am told basically going to some improvements to the clubhouse facilities. There is no other provincial money. There is potentially a small additional contribution from the organization itself that we will try to confirm.

Ms. Cerilli: The water-ski facility we have talked a little bit about already. It is not listed on the sheet. I think the minister mentioned that earlier. Going from my memory I think it is approximately $3 million plus the $48,000 for the Pan Am Games. That $3 million would have been all public money. I am not sure if there was any money put in by the water-ski association. If the minister could just clarify, does that include all the sod necessary around the hill, around the shore of the lake? I do not know if he has that kind of detail with him, but just to basically confirm that the number is $3 million?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, while the Winnipeg water-ski site of course will be hosting water skiing, six-medal events for both men and women, as the member knows the venue is built by the Manitoba water-ski association and was completed in the summer of 1998. I believe she is correct that the total capital cost of the retention lake was $3 million with, I believe, the province making a contribution of half of that. Again, as I indicated at the outset of these discussions, I will undertake to get confirmation of the total capital cost and what elements were included for the money spent.

Ms. Cerilli: I am also interested in finding out a little bit more detail about this facility in terms of the roadways that are going to be upgraded to accommodate the increase in traffic, any kind of care that is going to be taken for the parking in terms of dust on roads and the parking lot, what sort of a description of the kind of permanent facilities that will be there in terms of buildings, washroom facilities, change rooms, canteens, whatever, meeting rooms?

Mr. Stefanson: I will undertake to get all of the details and provide them to the member.

Ms. Cerilli: The last one on the list here then is the Winnipeg Winter Club which is listed as having a budget of $58,000 for improvements, same kind of issues. Are there any additional monies? What is the upgrade there and clarification on the sport?

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Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the Winnipeg Winter Club is being utilized for both squash and racquetball. I believe there is no additional provincial money. In fact, I do not think there is any additional money being put in the project, although we will confirm that. The money is mostly being utilized for the development of a future court which is a pro court, portable acrylic squash court, and as well a two-sides glass portable racket court, so it is really for court development for both of those sports.

Ms. Cerilli: I am assuming that court, what is called the feature court then or the portable court, would be able to have more seating or spectator space than what is available there now. Is that part of what the increase is for?

Mr. Stefanson: That is correct, Mr. Chairman. That is one of the reasons behind this type of court.

Ms. Cerilli: That brings us to the end of the list that the minister has provided for me, but I think there are some outstanding venues. I just want to clarify those. The minister mentioned one when he was talking earlier about the Festival Park at The Forks. Does the minister have an explanation of that venue? I think that it is listed on this other sheet; there it is. Festival Park. So that is costing $1.5 million, and that is not on this list. I guess you could argue that is not a sport facility, though.

The other one that comes to mind from looking at this other list I have is the Winnipeg Stadium, if that has received any funds or upgrades. The Convention Centre is another sport venue that we have not talked about. The squash club is another one. The Winnipeg Stadium, I mentioned that one already, sorry. There are a couple of others on this list: Chateau Lanes and the arena. I am wondering if any of those have received any money for upgrades outside of the Pan Am Games budget.

Mr. Stefanson: I will undertake to review those projects one more time, but I am told that for some of those facilities, the Winnipeg Arena, which, I believe, is hosting some gymnastics, some basketball, some volleyball, that there are no facility improvements required there. Anything that is done there is just either of a temporary or of an equipment nature, not of a facility improvement nature. Winnipeg Convention Centre, one of its halls is going to be used for some badminton and some team handball. Again, there are no facility improvements in that case, but, again, there is some equipment required and some temporary adjustments, no facility improvement. Winnipeg Convention Centre, another hall for judo and tae kwon do and wrestling, once again some equipment improvements and some temporary adjustments. Winnipeg Squash and Racquet Club, of course, being used for squash; again no facility improvements and temporary adjustments. The Winnipeg Stadium, beach volleyball.

We have under the Economic Development Partnership Agreement a contribution of $1.5 million from both the federal and provincial governments for a number of improvements at the stadium that go well beyond the Pan American Games. The other one that was mentioned was the Festival Park, which is shown under the Infrastructure Works summary, which shows a total project of 1.5 million and 500,000 from the federal and provincial governments. I am sure the member has seen some of the work being done on the Festival Park at The Forks, which will provide a venue for all kinds of gatherings and activities at that site. It will be the main focal point for many of the evening events and for the awarding of various medals and other activities taking place there. I will undertake to confirm all of those projects.

Ms. Cerilli: I just want to clarify. I do not know if the minister was mixing up the arena and the stadium or if I was just mixed up. Could you clarify what is happening at the arena and also what is happening at the stadium? It is the stadium that has had the $3-million upgrade. There has been nothing at the arena, I think he said.

Mr. Stefanson: The arena is for gymnastics, basketball and volleyball. There are no improvements of a permanent nature. As I indicated, there are some equipment issues and some temporary enhancements or adjustments. The stadium is for the beach volleyball. It is the stadium that has received a major upgrade. It is receiving, as can be noted under the partnership agreement, $1.5 million from the federal government, provincial government. Winnipeg Enterprises is making a significant contribution. I would have to get the total cost of the project. We can certainly undertake to do that. Major components of that include new seating in the stadium, with backs on the seats, a major new replay scoreboard. That would be two of the key elements and other physical improvements to the stadium itself.

Ms. Cerilli: In the budget line for equipment, I was thinking particularly in terms of the convention centre. They would be bringing in special flooring or cork courts. That is all going to be temporary. None of that is something that will remain as something for Winnipeg. It is going to all be rented, I am assuming.

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Mr. Stefanson: The one other venue at the stadium that I should have mentioned is the opening and closing ceremonies as well. Beyond the interior improvements, now that that fencing is no longer required at the stadium, all of that fencing has come down and there are major improvements on the exterior, on the grounds of the stadium as well. When it comes to equipment, I am told that in some cases the equipment is being rented and in some cases it is being purchased. Really that will come down to one of the legacies that can be left to the sport government bodies and sport organizations, the equipment that is being purchased for the Pan American Games.

Ms. Cerilli: Could I get a list of all the major kinds of equipment purchases, whether it is some of the more expensive mats and things or whether it is flooring, other major kinds of equipment. One of the other items I know that has been at issue is a Jumbotron. Is the scoreboard at the stadium going to have that kind of capability?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I will undertake to obtain that information on equipment being purchased and provide that to the member. The clock and replay board that is being purchased for the stadium is one of these jumbotrons that will have full replay capabilities and so on, again, another amenity for people attending any event there, and it will be available for the Pan American Games.

Ms. Cerilli: So the one at the stadium is the only one that is going to be in the city for the Games, and that is going to be just rented. There is not going to be one at any of the other sports. Is that correct?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I should just clarify, the jumbotron at the stadium is being purchased, so it is available on an ongoing basis. It will be the only jumbotron at any venue. I believe the Winnipeg Arena now has some replay capabilities with some of the features that they have in the arena. So those would be the two venues that would have replay capabilities.

The Pan-Am Pool does not have replay capabilities, but they, as part of their overall improvements, have a new state-of-the-art clock.

Ms. Cerilli: I am just aware that in some of the planning that was being done for the facilities for the athletics venue that there was an interest in having a jumbotron and that kind of replay capability for the athletics venue, but I guess that is not part of the facilities available.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I believe the member is correct that that is not available at the Pan Am stadium, but I will confirm that.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, I appreciate the painstaking way we have gone through this list and the patience of the minister and his staff sort of going through this. I think though that it is important to sort of get a more detailed explanation. I do not think there is anything public that has sort of shown this additional monies for games-related facilities. I think when we put it all together that will paint a more accurate picture then of the kind of investment that is being made into these games.

I just want to ask in terms of the overall budget for the facilities, the one that the minister has given me today has $15,588,000, but the budget that I was provided with the other day has two different figures for facilities. The one that corresponds with what could be called this business plan 2, which if we go back to the previous budget, the one before they made the changes in the expenditure allotments and how some of those were changed, that budget was over $19 million, actually almost $20 million for facilities, $19,928,000, and now business plan 2.(a) is $17,753,000, and now we have a third figure here of only $15,588,000.

Can the minister explain why there are these different figures for the facilities, and all of them seem to be on the revised budget? They are all after the $122-million budget.

Mr. Stefanson: The member will note from the information provided on the business plan analysis that under facilities, there is a brief explanation of the approved changes of $2,175,000, roughly, this shows $2 million, which really shows the transferring of a lot of operational expenses and personnel expenses out of the facility line and into Games operations and ceremonies and so on, Mr. Chairman. What I will do is get a reconciliation from the $17,753,000 to the capital listing that we have just gone over of $15,588,000.

I could speculate what some of the components might be, whether or not there are rental charges for facilities or other types of costs related to facilities, recognizing that the previous budget has obviously included a number of operational issues, as I say, over and above the capital costs. I will provide the member with a reconciliation of those two amounts.

Ms. Cerilli: It is interesting then, if what the minister is suggesting that the bill for rentals is $2 million, potentially, because that is what is the difference, if this money is all just for capital improvements.

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Mr. Stefanson: No, I am not suggesting that at all. I am just saying that that could be an example, based on how the accounting appears to have been done in terms of blending capital and operating. That could be an example of some costs that might be included in that line. But as I have indicated, I will provide the member with the reconciliation of the difference between the $17,753,000 and the $15,588,000.

Ms. Cerilli: I guess I am going to have to go over this business plan after we have finished here today to ask more questions on the budget itself, so I think I am going to move on from the facilities to some issues arising out of the Pan Am Games agreement.

The Pan Am Games agreement in some ways answers questions and in others just raises more questions in terms of the kinds of policies and agreements that are governing the Games. There has been some discussion already about the plan for the Legacy Fund. I am interested in seeing if there is actually a plan that is written down that we could review and have for review. It says, I am on page 10, item 5.3.(f): Plan will include the following, a plan for the Legacy Fund to be developed in conjunction with the funding partners.

Is that something that the minister is willing to table? I am assuming that that is complete.

Mr. Stefanson: I am not sure if I am answering the question, but the member referred to the Pan Am Games agreement and the whole issue of the Legacy Fund. If we are in the position of having a surplus, which is obviously a position I think we would all like to find ourselves in, 50 percent of that surplus is then deposited to the Legacy Fund. The various elements are outlined here in the agreement. I am not sure what else the member is looking for.

Ms. Cerilli: Maybe the minister could just direct me then to the page if I have missed something here. I just went through this earlier today. Can he direct me to the page number, because I do not know where it says this formula for the Legacy Fund?

Mr. Stefanson: Page 23, Section 18 deals with various elements of the Legacy Fund.

Ms. Cerilli: Okay, yes, I did go through that. I guess what I was asking the minister for is the plan as reference to–in item (f) that has I think more indication then of what the Legacy Fund is going to be used for.

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Mr. Stefanson: Discussions have been along the line of 50 percent of any surplus going to the benefit of amateur sport in Manitoba. Again, the discussions have revolved around utilizing Sport Manitoba and the National Sport Centre to accommodate that support for amateur sport in the province.

Ms. Cerilli: As I reconsider these sections, it talks about there having to be actually terms and conditions which is the plan that I am talking about, and that was supposed to be completed by December of 1996. That is the kind of thing that I am interested in. The minister said that Sport Manitoba is going to be involved with that. I am not sure if I knew that, but I knew that the other centre, the Centre of Excellence, I believe, is going to be receiving that. The minister is talking only about the 50 percent that is going into that fund, but what about the other 50 percent of any surplus?

Mr. Stefanson: When the agreement was amended because of the additional funding provided, the agreement at that time was that 50 percent of any Games surplus would be split equally between the federal government and the provincial government, and the remaining 50 percent would go into this Legacy Fund that we are talking about right now.

Again, the discussions have been along the lines of utilizing Sport Manitoba and the National Sport Centre as the vehicle to accommodate the support for amateur sport. The member refers to the terms and conditions being submitted by the 30th of October, '96, and approved by December 31, '96. Of course, that was based on certain conditions at the time. Those subsequently changed in March of 1998, and I will provide an update for the member on that.

Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Chairperson, does an update mean that the dates have just been changed, or is there actually an outlined guide, this Legacy Fund, that has been developed and agreed to? The other part of my question is: does Manitoba have a plan for its 25 percent, and does Sport Manitoba have a plan for its 25 percent?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, first of all, as I indicated, the amendment to the agreement is that 50 percent of any surplus, if we are in that position, goes to the federal and provincial governments. We just split equally, so the member is correct that, if there is a surplus, the Province of Manitoba would receive 25 percent. No decision has been made on what to do with that 25 percent if that is achieved at this particular point in time.

The other 50 percent is what we have been talking about that will go to the benefit of amateur sport. That is this issue of the trust fund which is to be established and so on, and the terms and conditions to govern this trust fund shall be that the objective is to support the activities of the National Sport Centre here in Manitoba, which is really an organization that is funded by Sport Manitoba to support and meet the needs of amateur athletes in the province of Manitoba.

So that is the overall direction from the agreement. Further details are being worked out in terms of all of the elements of the fund.

Ms. Cerilli: I said earlier that I am interested in seeing the terms and conditions, but it is not clear to me yet from the answers the minister has given if the date has just been changed and the terms and conditions are not completed yet. You have just said things are still being worked on, so that is one issue.

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The other thing then is if you have said that the National Sport Centre is sort of funded through Sport Manitoba, but it is a national centre, so I am assuming that it would have other funds as well. I would hope, is that where all of that 50 percent is going to go, of any surplus? I guess the other thing to add is I am a little bit more optimistic about the bottom line for the Games since going through some of these Estimates because now I understand that there is this sort of built-in cushion on the ticket sales, like we were discussing the other day. So if the ticket sales go very, very well, there is a chance there will be some legacy left, and there will be some money in this fund. So I think that this discussion in terms of the parameters that are being put in place for the Manitoba portion, which is actually then potentially 75 percent of it, because the federal government is only getting 25 percent, so back to the point of the status of these guidelines or parameters being completed. If Sport Manitoba is actually funding the National Sport Centre, is that where all the money is going to go?

I guess the other side issue on that was if the National Sport Centre has funding from other partners besides just Sport Manitoba.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, even though it is a National Sport Centre, there are seven of them in Canada; the centre here in Manitoba is in place for the benefit of Manitoba athletes. It is funded, and the majority of the funding comes from Sport Manitoba, approximately 50 percent or $200,000. I believe that about $100,000 comes from the Canadian Olympic Association; and about $100,000, Sport Canada. But the $200,000 provided here in Manitoba is provided through Sport Manitoba, which has a direct liaison with the National Sport Centre.

So the amended agreement was very clear that the Legacy Fund, the 50 percent for amateur sport, will be to support the activities in the National Sport Centre. That meets some of the original intent of the original agreement, where it had to be determined how those funds would be established. Now we are awaiting final details on all elements of the administration of the fund itself, but the decision had been made that 50 percent of the fund will go to support the activities of the National Sport Centre.

Ms. Cerilli: Back then to the issue of the provincial portion, 25 percent, what considerations does the minister have, or what are his priorities for how that money should benefit the legacy of Sport Manitoba?

Mr. Stefanson: Well, that amendment was put in place after both the federal government and the provincial government significantly enhanced their funding support for the Pan American Games. As the member is very well aware, we discussed that in previous occasions during last year's Estimates and at other times. So no decision has been made on what would happen to that 25 percent that is coming to the Province of Manitoba. We will wait and see if that happens, if it does happen, at what level or what financial amount, and then make the decision at that particular point in time.

Ms. Cerilli: So the minister does not have a dream and vision of his own. I guess I was perhaps out of order then. I think I may have been even asking for your opinion, but that was what I was asking for, as to what ideas you have in terms of how this money would benefit Manitoba.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chair, I have lots of ideas for sport in Manitoba, but this agreement very specifically allocated 50 percent of any surplus automatically to the benefit of amateur sport through the National Sport Centre. It returns 25 percent of the federal government, which, I do not believe, has made any decision at this point in time what they might do with that 25 percent, and it returns 25 percent to the Province of Manitoba to make decisions at that time. I think that is a reasonable approach, recognizing the amount of support that both the federal government and the provincial government are providing to these Games.

Ms. Cerilli: I think it is a reasonable question for me to ask the Minister for Sport what he would do with 25 percent of any surplus that would come from these major games. I do not think that is an unreasonable question for me to be asking you at this time. I guess what you are saying is that you are going to see if there is any surplus, and then you will decide what you are going to do with it. So your government has no policy as to what they would do with their 25 percent.

Mr. Stefanson: I find this interesting. We did spend a lot of time concerned about deficits. Now we are focusing on surplus. The member says she is more optimistic about surpluses now, but it is no sense spending a lot of time on a policy when you do not know what an amount might be. If it is $1, that is significantly different than if it is $100,000 or if it is $500,000 or if it is a million. I could go on and on and on, on this in terms of what is ultimately done with any surplus. We, as one of the major funders, are already supporting 50 percent of it automatically going into amateur sport to the National Sport Centre. We will have the opportunity if there is a surplus to make decisions about how to use those dollars here in the province of Manitoba in a whole range of areas, Mr. Chairman. I think to start to speculate about what you might do with a surplus that some doubt that you will even achieve, and/or what it might be, you can spend an awful lot of time unproductively. We would rather wait to see what the surplus is, if any. We have already indicated where 50 percent will automatically go benefiting sport in Manitoba and make further decisions at that time.

Ms. Cerilli: On this topic then, of the items included in the revised business plan, I am wondering if the minister would agree to provide me with each of those (a) through (i). I am most interested in the financial plan, marketing, the agreement with partners, provision on facilities, the one we have just talked about, legacy fund, the risk management plan, the plan for greening of the Games, and maybe there are others under item (i) that are relevant to organizing carrying out the Games. Could we have copies of all of those?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I will follow up on that and get back to the member.

Mr. Chairperson: The hour being six o'clock, committee rise. Call in the Speaker.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Marcel Laurendeau): The hour now being six o'clock, this House now adjourns and stands adjourned until tomorrow at 1:30 p.m. (Tuesday).