Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): The next set of Estimates that will be considered by this section of the Committee of Supply are the Estimates of the Department of Sport. Does the honourable Minister responsible for Sport have an opening statement?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister responsible for Sport): Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review, the 1999-2000 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for Sport. Just very briefly, you can see that the total allocation in 1999-2000 is $10,556,000. It is down from last year's allocation of $15,349,000, but that is basically as a result of no provision in Sport for the Pan Am Games in 1999-2000. That was to the level of $5 million a year ago. So really that is the difference; otherwise, you can see that the overall funding would be up slightly for the remainder of the Sport activities. Sport Manitoba, the main governing body, regulatory body, again is receiving $10,205,000. There are some additional expenditures that we can certainly get into during the Estimates.

So we are pleased to be able to maintain our level of support with some modest increases in a few project areas. With those very brief comments, I look forward to answering any questions.

Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for Radisson, have an opening statement?

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I will just make a few comments as well. Considering that I have just received the Estimates book as the minister has arrived here, I just want to acknowledge that I do want to take some time and go through this. I am going to start off, though, by spending some time, I think as we did last year, discussing the provisions under the Pan Am Games. I guess the minister can appreciate that this is, to quote the Premier (Mr. Filmon) today in the paper, the biggest sporting event in the history of the province, and it deserves our attention and our debate and discussion.

I am wanting to see if the minister is going to have someone here for the Estimates from the Pan Am Games Society or one of the government representatives on the board or another person that would be on a daily basis involved in the Pan Am Games to provide the minister with the kind of detailed information that we are going to need to get into this the year that the event takes place. I know that in the past we have gone fairly quickly through Sport Estimates, and oftentimes the minister does not necessarily have a lot of the information that I am requesting, and then we have to go back. I just want to, I guess, let the minister know that I want to be able to go into some detail on some of the issues, especially because we have been at this now for a few years, and this is the year that the Games are going to take place.

So I do want to also spend some time on a number of the other major initiatives that are taking place in Sport in terms of Canada Games and Manitoba Games and just a lot of information that comes my way from a number of different sport organizations, the number of changes that have occurred over on Main Street there over the past number of years. But I do want to just let the minister know that I am going to be starting off with the Pan Am Games. I think it would be great if we could have somebody here that would be able to deal with the Pan Am Games in some detail. So with that I will just wait for the minister.

Mr. Chairperson: We thank the critic, the honourable member for Radisson, for those comments. We would ask that the minister's staff join us at the table, and we would ask that the minister introduce his staff present.

Mr. Stefanson: Joining me immediately to my left is Mr. Ted Wilton, the associate director of Community Support Programs. Beside Ted is Jeff Hnatiuk, the president and CEO of Sport Manitoba.

Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister. We will now proceed to line 28.1. Sport (a) Support Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 140 of the main Estimates book.

Ms. Cerilli: I would like to just say hello to Ted and to Jeff and thank them for joining us. But I also want to see if the minister is going to respond favourably to my suggestion that we have someone especially at the beginning now–we are only going to have half an hour today. I am not suggesting that we hold up today to get someone here for the Pan Am Games, but I think in the past there has been someone present who is on the board. I do not know if Mr. Wilton is fulfilling that function, but the Pan Am Games Society needs to have somebody, I think, here, or the minister, maybe he is more up to speed on the details of the Games than in the past or than I have given him credit for. But are you going to have someone here who can answer some of those kinds of questions?

Mr. Stefanson: Right now my main day-to-day liaison to the Pan Am Games is Ted Wilton. The other director of Community Support Programs is Mr. Jim Berry, but he is unavailable at this time. He is an ex officio member of the board as well. So that is my main day-to-day contact. I know we might not be able to answer each and every question in detail right here during the process, but we certainly will get back to the member with information as quickly as possible.

I know we did respond to some detailed questions in last year's Estimates, providing that information subsequently to the member. I recognize that the Pan Am Games are, as we all know, the largest event in our history, the largest multisport event in Canada's history, but the idea of having either board members or staff from other organizations that we fund is not something that is all that common to our Estimates process, whether it is Education having school boards or CEOs of school divisions. You go all the way down the line. I mean, other games we do not have the chairs, we do not have the CEOs. So it is certainly not a tradition, I do not think, under our government or previous governments where you bring to the Estimates process the people who serve on a volunteer basis on the boards or the paid staff of external organizations. So I am certainly prepared to answer the questions as best as I can and to undertake to get back to the member as quickly as possible if there are detailed issues that require follow-up.

Ms. Cerilli: Maybe then just to have the minister clarify the state of his position, having other staff here from the Pan Am Games Society or the board. I can certainly understand having someone here who is in a volunteer capacity, but I am just wanting to clarify what Mr. Wilton's position is then, both with the Community Support Programs–I understand he is the associate director but I am wanting more of a clarification of what he does in that capacity and then again a clarification of what he does vis-a-vis the Pan Am Games.

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Mr. Stefanson: We do get separately to Community Support Programs. I cannot recall if the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) is a critic for that or not, not that that is relevant to the discussion, but we have our Community Support Programs which is a separate budget line in our Estimates, and we deal with it separately. That is what I am trying to recall; I should know who the critic is.

So those are the funding of many external organizations that we provide support for. Mr. Wilton is the ongoing liaison with all of those organizations from the United Way to different cultural groups to different sporting groups and so on. But within the area of sport, he also has been the liaison for various sporting events, with the Pan Am Games being one example, also the world junior hockey that we just hosted. He, again, was our liaison back to that committee and so on, and he also is my liaison on a day-to-day basis with Sport Manitoba. Even though I meet with Jeff Hnatiuk and I meet with the board chair, Mr. Paul Robson, and other people as required, Mr. Wilton is really my day-to-day contact on a number of ongoing issues.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, I just want to clarify then, Mr. Wilton actually works for the Department of Culture and Heritage, I believe. Is that where the Community Support Programs are, or is it in Family Services? I am not quite clear then. It sounds like he is acting as a deputy minister to the Minister of Sport, and maybe the minister could clarify that.

Mr. Stefanson: Community Support Programs are a separate line item, have been for years, in the budget. They actually show up on the detailed Expenditure Estimates on page 34. We go through it as a separate line item and discuss the funding from organizations like the Festival du Voyageur, the Folk Arts Council of Winnipeg, United Way, Valley Agricultural Society, the Harness and Quarterhorse Racing Support, the Manitoba Community Services Council, the Winnipeg Football Club, the General Council of Winnipeg Community Centres, and then there are some sundry expenditures that vary from year to year.

So it is a completely separate section not within Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, and it reports to me. It did report to me in my previous responsibilities and it continues to report to me. That is where Mr. Wilton is paid from, but he is also the staff support that reports to me to deal with the sporting issues.

Mr. Chairperson: I guess I also did not ask what the committee's will was as far as going line by line or just a general roaming throughout it.

Ms. Cerilli: I would prefer if we just sort of had a general-issues discussion.

Mr. Stefanson: That is fine, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairperson: Agreed? [agreed]

Ms. Cerilli: Getting back to this issue of the Community Support Programs, I do recall now, I actually do not have the major Estimates book in front of me right now today either, but I realize that that is a separate line item. I am wondering: is the reason that Mr. Wilton is with you at these Estimates is that also where some of the Pan Am Games money is flowing through? It seems to me a lot of the Pan Am Games money is coming from different departments, so could the minister clarify that because I guess I am at a loss of why it is that it is Mr. Wilton that is with us as opposed to somebody else, and I guess in the same vein is, even though the minister is now Minister of Health, that is his major responsibility, not the Minister of Finance, he is still responsible for that line item for Community Support Programs. Is that because that is one of the areas that is related to the Pan Am Games?

Mr. Stefanson: The member is correct that for several years now I have had responsibilities for Community Support and for Sport and the staffing positions are provided for under Community Support but the utilization of those staff, Mr. Wilton is to cover both areas because there is an overlap between many of the community initiatives and the sporting initiatives. So they are separate line items in the budget, they are in some respects distinct functional areas, but there is some overlap and so Mr. Wilton, his staff position is how he is there, that is where he is paid from, but I also do have the opportunity to utilize him as my day-to-day liaison on sporting initiatives, because Mr. Hnatiuk reports to the Board of Sport Manitoba even though we provide all of the funding to Sport Manitoba, his direct reporting relationship is to that organization.

So he certainly is also available to me on sporting issues and so on, but more on a day-to-day basis, I utilize Mr. Wilton. In terms of the specific request about funding for the Pan Am Games, it has basically come out of two line items over the last few years. It has come out of Sport, although there is no provision in this budget here out of Sport, and the other area that it has come out of is the Urban Economic Development Initiatives. That again is a separate line item in the budget which again I have responsibility for, and the member can see, even though we were paying for it out of the line item, we still reflect it here in the detailed Estimates on page 10 of the supplement that shows the payment that is going to be made in 1999-2000 to the Pan Am Games is $5 million. Mr. Chairman, $5 million is recoverable from the Urban Economic Development Initiative, so there is a separate line item for the Urban Economic Development Initiatives which will provide that $5 million.

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Ms. Cerilli: Okay. Some of the information I am wanting to get and I would appreciate it if, and I think it would make this Estimates process more meaningful if some of the information I am going to request could be provided with me so we could use it in our discussions. So I am going to basically go through some of the requests I have and the minister can let me know how easy it is to have these kind of agreements and this information given to me. Some of it is in the audit that was done by the City of Winnipeg to review the status of the Pan Am Games and it is getting a little old now. It was done in November 1997, and one of the things I am wanting to see, first of all, is if the provincial government has also been doing similar kinds of reviews or audits of the Pan Am Games.

Mr. Stefanson: There is a federal-provincial-city co-ordinating committee. It meets monthly, I am told, with representatives obviously from all three levels of government receiving financial reports on the Games and reviewing them on an ongoing basis, an opportunity to obviously follow up on any issues, ask any questions and continue to monitor the situation of the overall performance of the Games from a financial perspective.

Ms. Cerilli: So obviously the city undertook something that was outside of that committee. I am assuming, though, that the minister has had a chance to review this audit or any other ones the city has done.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I believe aspects were shared with us from that audit, and there was a review done, I believe, as well by the federal government around the same time. Back in 1997, of course, was the period when we were being asked to make funding adjustments to the Games. There was a revised budget, as the member knows, at that point in time. So various reviews were done in 1997.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, it is just interesting that at that time the federal government did a review, the city did an audit, and the provincial government chose not to or has not. Can the minister explain why?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, in fact, we were quite the opposite. We were trying to get more co-ordination of some of those activities. It does not make sense for three levels of government to all be sending in separate auditors and incurring additional costs. It really is quite foolish. We were offering to do on a co-operative basis. For some reason the federal government I believe more or less wanted to go forward on their own, which they ultimately did. I do not believe they ever shared the actual audit itself with us, but we had some discussions relative to whether or not there were any concerns that arose from that audit. We also have an individual, I believe, on the audit committee of the Games, Mr. Bob Yuel, who is an analyst with the Treasury Board in the government of Manitoba. We also appoint citizen members to the board who serve on the different finance committees and so on. We do have a number of opportunities to have reviews and checks and balances, but the question of the audit, we did not feel that there was a need to send in a third audit just duplicating what has already been done.

Ms. Cerilli: Is the minister concerned that the federal government is not sharing the information on their review. It sounds like then your efforts for a more co-operative approach have not been that successful. I often hear that this sort of characterizes the relationship around the Pan Am Games, that it is not the most collaborative or co-operative partnership between the different levels of government. Would the minister agree with that?

Mr. Stefanson: I describe the relationship as reasonable today between all three levels of government. I think all three recognize it as a tremendous opportunity for the province of Manitoba and the city of Winnipeg. On an overall basis the co-operation has been certainly quite good of late. From the initial outset, the co-operation was also quite reasonable. I think all that happened during 1997 was that that was the period when governments were being asked for additional financial support and there was perhaps a little bit of disagreement at that time.

The member will recall, in fact, we have talked about it during Estimates, what kind of funding the federal government provided for other games. We were taking a fairly firm position in terms of what we expected from the federal government for support for these games compared to the Commonwealth Games in Victoria and other games. That led to a degree of tension. So there have been periods of some tension, but on an overall basis I think all three governments do see this as a tremendous opportunity for the province.

Ms. Cerilli: We will get into some of those issues in more detail on other days, but I guess right now I just want to make some of the requests for some of the documents outlined in the review that was done for the city by their audit department. First of all, it is the bid city agreement that was dated December 5, '92. That is between the Canadian Olympic Association and the City of Winnipeg and the Pan Am Games bid committee. Secondly would be the co-operation agreements dated July 31, '94. That was between all the countries participating–at that time it was 42–and Canadian Olympic Association, I guess the Canadian government, the Manitoba government, the City of Winnipeg, and the bid committee.

I will go through all of these and then maybe we can go back and discuss each one. The third is the host city agreement dated February 20, '95. The Pan Am Games Society is one of the partners in that agreement.

Fourthly is the Pan Am Games agreement, the funding agreement, dated February 20, '95, between the Canada government, Manitoba government, City of Winnipeg and the Pan Am Games Society.

Let us go back and the minister could maybe deal with each of those individually in terms of the availability of those.

Mr. Stefanson: I take it the member was asking for copies of those agreements. What we will do is, either later today or first thing tomorrow morning, follow up with the Pan Am Games Society. Obviously, if all of these agreements can be made available immediately, we will do that. If there are reasons why they cannot be made available, I will return with those reasons, or if there are aspects where an agreement can be provided and a section has to be whited out for some reason, I would also return with that and explain why. So I will certainly try to get back to the member on these four agreements tomorrow.

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Ms. Cerilli: There was a revised business plan done, and I think we discussed that last year. I am wondering if there have been any more revisions to the budget or the business plan and if I could get copies of that as well.

Mr. Stefanson: I do not believe that there have been any major revisions from what the member would be working off of, but I will follow up on that issue tomorrow, as well, in terms of the current business plan.

Ms. Cerilli: One of the things that has been an issue–and this, again, speaks to the whole issue of federal, provincial and city co-operation–is how any deficit that does occur would be dealt with, and now the federal government I think has made comments publicly saying that it was the city that bid for the Games; it would be the city that, I guess they feel, would be responsible.

There must be in these kinds of agreements some language or some clarification and some forethought on that issue of how any kind of deficit would be dealt with between the society and the different levels of government. What is the minister's understanding with respect to that issue?

I just wanted to add to that, as well, then, which of the documents that we have been discussing, if any so far, would discuss that issue in terms of the portioning of responsibility for a deficit.

Mr. Stefanson: Any deficits initially are the responsibility of the Pan Am Games Society. We have all heard comments from them, from the chair, and from others involved that with the revised funding that was provided in 1997 they do not expect to run a deficit. In terms of the updates that I have received, that still is the position of the Pan Am Games Society.

There is the one area that still has a degree of risk to it. I am sure we will discuss that a little more later. It is the whole issue of ticket sales. I believe in terms of the target or the business plan that the Pan Am Games Society is sitting at about 40 percent of their target for ticket sales, but they still believe that their target is achievable based on comparisons to previous games and events held in Manitoba and the significant number of tickets that are sold as we get closer and closer to the Games and to the events. So that is the one area of some risk.

There are some contingency plans in place to deal with that. Certainly from everything I have been provided and recent meetings I have had, I believe that the Pan Am Games Society will be able to achieve a balanced budget.

Ms. Cerilli: My question deals though with the agreements that are in place, particularly the funding agreement. Does it speak to this issue of the deficits at all? What is the language in the agreement regarding deficits?

Mr. Stefanson: There is no further liability back to the Province of Manitoba. As to whether there is a further liability back to the City of Winnipeg under the host city agreement, I would have to confirm that for the member. But I can assure her that there is no liability back to the province from any agreement that we have entered into.

Ms. Cerilli: I will wait and ask more questions on specifics when we get those agreements. I just want to request some other information then.

I have some information from the minister about the allotments from each department over the years. I wonder if I can get the same kind of information from Crown corporations, particularly information prior to the revised budget and after the revised budget.

Mr. Stefanson: Well, I will undertake to follow up with the Crowns. As we know, they at various times appear before our committees and so on. There is the opportunity in that forum to ask questions about all of their operations, including support for events like the Pan Am Games. But I will undertake to contact the Crowns to determine what information can be made available. The question is the financial support that they are providing to the Pan Am Games.

Ms. Cerilli: Either financial support or in-kind services.

Mr. Stefanson: I will undertake to contact the Crowns and make as much information as I can available as a result of that.

Ms. Cerilli: We have also received some copies of the Pan Am Games Society progress reports. I just want to clarify how often these progress reports are done and if those are also documents that we can get copies of.

Mr. Stefanson: Maybe the member can be a little more specific–there are various reports that the Pan Am Games puts out–whether she has an example of one or can describe in some detail what it is she is looking for.

Ms. Cerilli: I can assure the minister I have three huge files on Pan Am Games documents, but I do not have it with me today. I knew that we were only going to have a short time today, but it is a Pan Am Games Society progress report, periodic progress report is what I have got from the notes we have made, on the Games preparations and on its finances, and it is done to its financial partners. It is a report that is done by the Pan Am Games Society to its financial partners. We have one that is from '97, early in '97.

Mr. Stefanson: Well, if the member could provide details, if it is tomorrow, fine. I think I know the one she is referring to, and I am not being difficult here at all. So I will also check from my end. There is a report that comes out periodically that outlines a whole number of issues from the status of venues, the status of activities and so on. So I will follow up on that, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Cerilli: One other quick question, then, in terms of information we would like to get, is any other economic impact studies that have been done. We discussed last time the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics, the one from March '97, but that one indicated that they did not assess the impact of the Games legacy in terms of facilities. Have you done any other assessments related to that issue?

Mr. Stefanson: I will provide a status report on that next time we meet, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairperson: The time being six o'clock, committee rise.