Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, as I indicated yesterday there would likely be another committee being called for next week. I would therefore announce that the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs will meet on Monday, June 7, 1999, at 10 a.m., in Room 255 to discuss the March 31, 1997, progress report for The Forks-North Portage Partnership. So that will take place on Monday.

I would then move, seconded by the honourable–

Madam Speaker: One moment please. I will put the announcement relative to the standing committee on the record before I entertain the motion.

The Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs will meet Monday, June 7, at 10 a.m., in Room 255 to consider matters related to The Forks-North Portage development.

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and this House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted (to Her Majesty).

Before I do that, Madam Speaker, I would ask if you would canvass the House as well to see if there is a willingness to waive private members' hour.

Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to waive private members' hour? [agreed]

Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training.

When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 16.2. School Programs (e) Program Implementation (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 48 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass?

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask about the piloting of the program review process for special education programs and services, which is one activity identified for this year for this section of the department. We have spent some time already on the special education programs and services. I am interested now particularly in the review process and where it is going to be piloted and whether this–how many divisions or classes will be involved in the pilot? That is, is it going to be done in one area or will it be more diverse?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): While we are preparing to respond to that, I think I could respond further to some matters that were talked about yesterday in the committee, as we have been trying to keep up with the commitments that we have been making. Yesterday I mentioned the agreements reached between MERLIN and Corel and the agreement that we referred to between MERLIN and Microsoft. With respect to Microsoft, this agreement overall has three aspects to it. The first aspect deals with MERLIN and Microsoft. This is the master agreement, and it does not involve any financial outlay for MERLIN, but MERLIN is the administrator–or this master agreement–but MERLIN is the administrator of the terms of the agreement and is ultimately responsible to fulfill its terms, such as monitoring whether schools and/or divisions who have entered the agreement are not using more of Microsoft products than they have licence to do.

Secondly, the aspect between MERLIN and the school division or the school, this is an indemnity agreement wherein the participating schools and/or divisions agree to indemnify MERLIN for any violations of the master agreement.

Thirdly, between the schools and divisions and Microsoft, schools and divisions can make a direct agreement with Microsoft to purchase a stated minimum amount of software over a two-year period, i.e., 500 units. In exchange, it receives extra product or use rights. We are exploring with legal counsel whether the actual master agreement between MERLIN and Microsoft can be made public by myself. We are informed, since there are two parties to this agreement, one being Microsoft, we need Microsoft's concurrence to make the agreement public. It may be some of the agreement, all of it or none of it can be made public. Nevertheless, I am able to table the generic agreement and general information between MERLIN and any school or division participant.

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With respect to Corel, there are two aspects to this agreement. The first one is between MERLIN and Corel. This is the master agreement, and there is no financial outlay by MERLIN where it is the administrator of the agreement and is responsible for the implementation of the terms of the agreement, including being responsible for schools and/or divisions fulfilling the terms of their agreement.

Secondly, the MERLIN school and/or division indemnity agreement. This provides MERLIN with protection should school and/or divisions not fulfill the agreement as not licensing all the Corel software they use. The key difference then between the Microsoft and Corel agreements is that in the latter, there is no provision for schools and/or divisions to sign with Corel to receive extras as there is with the Microsoft one. We are exploring with legal counsel as with the Microsoft agreement to determine whether we can make public the master agreement. We will table the generic agreement and general information between MERLIN and any participating school or division when it is available. As the master agreement has just been signed, no other agreements have yet been written. However they will be very similar in content and structure to the MERLIN and schools and/or divisions generic agreement that I am tabling. This is the Manitoba Education Research and Learning Information Networks agreement. This is a sample agreement, and I will table that.

The honourable member and I talked about curriculum-developed curricula and school-initiated courses related to computer/information technology education. The information I am tabling today identifies department-developed curricula related to computer/information technology education and the Table 2 identifies school-initiated courses related to computer/ information technology education. So it is Table 1 and Table 2 in these documents which I am making available now.

We talked about citizenship in social studies curriculum projects and the role of citizenship in the existing social studies curriculum. An over-riding intent of the existing kindergarten to Senior 4 social studies curriculum is to provide students with the resources they will need to participate actively and effectively in our changing society and to become knowledgeable, purposeful and responsible citizens.

Specific citizenship goals include things like developing in students the knowledge, skills, understandings and character traits essential for effective and responsible citizenship in Canada and the world; allowing students the opportunity to preserve and extend a democratic way of life in the context of a changing Canadian society; providing understandings to help students participate constructively in the economic, civic and legal life of Canada and the world; developing informed students who are able to function effectively within a rapidly changing society, that is, to criticize it constructively and to work to improve it where necessary.

These goals are reflected in the curriculum guides for different grades in the context of a variety of topics. For example, Grade 3 students examine their roles and responsibilities as citizens within their own communities. At Senior 1, the Canadian Studies focus is intended to help students gain a greater understanding of Canada, their roles within our society and the role of Canada within the world. Students explore the question who is a Canadian and examine the concept of citizenship in multicultural Canadian society and in the broader world community.

Now, there is a foundation document, role of citizenship in the Western Canadian Protocol foundation document. The concept of citizenship is of paramount importance to the Western Canadian Protocol foundation document. As stated in the vision, the common curriculum framework for social studies K to 12 will meet the needs and reflect the nature of the 21st Century learner and will have the concept of Canadian citizenship and identity at its heart. The framework will ultimately contribute to a Canadian spirit, a spirit that will be fundamental in creating a sense of belonging for each one of our students as he or she engages in active and responsible citizenship locally, nationally and globally. Citizenship is woven into every section of the foundation document and is the primary statement in the sections entitled Role of Social Studies, Guiding Principles and Social Studies Organizers. Active and effective citizenship is the raison d'être of social studies, the reason for learning the knowledge, skills and values of history, geography and other related disciplines. How the foundation document will influence the Western Canadian Protocol Common Curriculum Framework and Manitoba's curriculum is that following jurisdictional consultations on and revisions to the foundation document, the document will provide practical and philosophical directions for the development of the common curriculum framework. Manitoba's social studies curriculum will be based on the common curriculum framework and will incorporate the learning outcomes related to citizenship.

How will the Pan-Canadian citizen project intersect with the Western Canadian Protocol Social Studies Project? The Pan-Canadian framework of learning expectations for citizenship education is intended to define citizenship expectations and provide direction for their integration into curricula for all subject areas and grades. The Pan-Canadian project, dealing as it does with citizenship alone, has a considerably narrower focus than the Western Canadian Protocol Social Studies Project. The Western Canadian Protocol project will create an entire framework of social studies outcomes for K to 12 with citizenship as one of the major areas of emphasis. The Western Canadian Protocol project will reflect the Pan-Canadian citizenship expectations but will go beyond those and define K-to-12 learning outcomes related to the teaching of history, geography, and other social science disciplines required to achieve citizenship expectations and other social studies expectations. So there is some comment on the issues related to citizenship that we talked about yesterday.

The honourable member asked about the piloting program review process in special education. First she asked where. There are 13 divisions and one independent school who are interested. Here they are: St. Vital School Division No. 6, Turtle Mountain School Division No. 44, Western School Division No. 47, White Horse Plain School Division No. 20, Evergreen School Division No. 22, Fort la Bosse School Division No. 41, Dauphin Ochre School Division No. 33, River East School Division No. 9, Portage la Prairie School Division No. 24, Antler River School Division No. 43, Swan Valley School Division No. 35, Frontier School Division No. 48, Lynn Lake School District, and an independent school, the Winnipeg Mennonite Elementary School.

The other part of the question was really something we discussed at length previously. The program review process involves identifying interest, working with those who express interest to develop the process, focusing initially on Level II and Level III categories of programming with the intent to expand to other portions of special education later. The lead for all this is the special education policy and program development group, who were with us previously. The program implementation unit will participate as team members, but not as the lead.

The Supplementary Estimates and activity descriptions for program implementation were written prior to the decision to establish the new special education unit. Hence, the activity description for program implementation is not current, since those portions about the program review are transferred to the new special ed unit. I thought it would be good to just point that out to the honourable member.

Ms. Friesen: I want to follow up on questions I asked in Question Period about the alcohol Addictions Foundation and southern Manitoba. The minister received the same letter as I did. They represent hundreds of people, if you include the people whom the parent councils represent, whom the churches represent, whom the municipalities and service clubs represent.

The impression was in Question Period, although it is a very narrow environment, my impression was that the minister was not familiar with the issue. The minister now has his staff here. I wonder if he could tell me what kind of specific responses he has given to those groups and individuals who have written to him. His answers in Question Period were very broad and related to broad budgeting issues rather than to the specific issues of the increasing number of young people who say that the biggest problems they face are derived from alcohol and drug use.

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The main points that many of the writers of the letters were making was that in smaller schools in Manitoba there is not the same opportunity to have access to counselling and that the kinds of programs that the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba has been able to launch, both in terms of prevention and in assistance, in rural Manitoba have tended to deal with, perhaps quite naturally, the larger schools in larger centres.

The concern particularly relates to the Prairie Spirit School Division. The minister, I know, has received many of these letters. I wonder if he could tell us what specific responses he has given. I think he is aware or certainly the department will be aware that this is not the first time this has been raised. The same issue was raised, I think, by school divisions in the central part of Manitoba in the Interlake about a year ago, not perhaps in the same number and not as widespread, but certainly the same basic issue was raised.

How does the Department of Education, how does the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba meet the needs of these young people who are increasingly saying that this is the biggest problem they face?

If the minister looks at the survey that was in the newsletter for fall '98 of the Addictions Foundation, increasingly students seem to say, and it is hard to know how specifically worded the question was, but they seemed to be saying that even knowing the dangers, they will continue, they will perhaps even initiate, perhaps not even having used such substances before, that they will begin to initiate that. The interpretation that the Addictions Foundation attaches to this is, of course, the common one amongst young people that they think they are immune. They think it will affect other people but not themselves; obviously a great area for prevention work in schools, not just the Addictions Foundation but school counsellors, schoolteachers, school principals, as well, obviously, as the youth movements and support services that exist in these areas.

But what the letter writers are saying is that small schools, rural Manitoba, are not well served and that this is a problem which is increasing.

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member would be quite incorrect in her impression on this occasion. I do have background in the Health department for nearly three and a half years, and the Addictions Foundation was part of my responsibility. That is where these questions are more appropriately asked, in the Estimates of the Department of Health, but they certainly are related to our schools system, and the concern is certainly real and well-founded.

Even though my children did not attend a small school–and neither did I when it came to high school–some of the concerns are the same in places like Brandon and smaller places for sure, that given the infrastructure of your average rural community, the opportunities for a whole lot of recreation are–you could say limited, certainly not as extensive as you would find those opportunities in somewhere like the city of Winnipeg. But, interestingly, in cities where there is ample opportunity for constructive activity, there are still the incidents of students getting involved in substance abuse and alcohol abuse and addictions issues generally.

But I know that in some places where there are fewer more constructive activities that students can engage in, this becomes quite a concern. I am very aware of that, and I am aware of the programming the honourable member was referring to because the AFM was bringing that in back in the days when I was Health minister. I met with principals and teachers back then and received mail back then about the popularity, if you like, of the program or the usefulness of it, and I was made aware that it was not everywhere.

I guess it is based on–you would have to ask the Health minister of today more about the program requirements and that sort of thing of this program, but I know that governments and school divisions do the best they can to meet all the needs that they can do within available resources. So I do recommend that the question be raised with the Minister of Health (Mr. Stefanson). When the honourable member asked it today in Question Period, I leaned over to my seatmate and told him that he might expect to hear a question of this nature coming his direction.

I know the Addictions Foundation does the best it can with the resources that it has at its disposal to prevent, to educate, and to take part in appropriate activities, activities that studies demonstrate are the most likely to achieve some level of success in preventing addictive or abusive behaviour, self-abusive behaviour. I know that we should not close our eyes to the fact that even the young among us get themselves involved in substance abuse. We know that there is a lot more of that than we would like to have, and so we have to remain vigilant and challenge the Addictions Foundation to use its resources as best it can to achieve the maximum level of service with the available resources.

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So I cannot really get into a lot of detail. The mail that I have been getting I am sharing with my colleague the Minister of Health so that he can be aware of the concerns that are being raised and be aware, I think, of the–I used the word "popularity." It is probably the wrong word to describe a useful program or a valuable program, but being valuable, I guess, that is why I can use the word popular, because it certainly is relevant to the needs. I know it is maybe a part of Canadian rural life that exposure to substances such as alcohol is something that happens. I think a lot of people can bear me out on this that sometimes abuse is the result of experimentation with various substances. Sometimes even just the experimentation is the abuse. Sometimes it is illegal, especially if you are under age when it comes to alcohol, for example. So I have already made the Minister of Health aware of the issue. I know he heard the questions in the House today that were raised by the honourable member. I invite her to raise those questions with the honourable Minister of Health as well.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, one aspect of Education's responsibility in this matter is the health and physical education curriculum which has been delayed. It has been delayed, I think, now at least 18 months. I know that there are draft curriculums which are being evaluated, and I wonder if the minister could tell me how the draft curriculums for health and physical education at each level in the school system are going to address this issue.

Mr. McCrae: The health and phys ed curriculum, both the old one and the one that is the subject of work presently, the new one, both address issues related to addictions at appropriate levels in the school experience, and I am not as familiar today with the actual content in a detailed way. I assume the new one being worked on, with the addictions issues being treated very similarly or identically with the old one, must be felt by the professionals that are involved in the development of curriculum, must be felt to be relevant and appropriate to deal with the issues that this matter raises for students and teachers in the education environment. Work is underway. I just do not know if the new health and phys ed curriculum, if we do not get that in front of the teachers early enough, I do not want to impose on them a burden that is not reasonable. It has been suggested in the past that with New Directions in Education that we may be asked more than, in the view of some at least, what might be reasonable for the field to address themselves so that they can prepare themselves. So I want to make sure that this is not imposed and rushed through in a way that places an unfairly heavy burden on an already very busy teaching profession.

Just by way of additional information, the Child and Youth Secretariat has an audiotape and a teacher manual which has gone out, respecting fetal alcohol syndrome and fetal alcohol effect. This is for teachers to assist them in dealing with fetal alcohol students. The Special Education Review references the need for K-to-4 counsellors, and, of course, that is something that we are working on. I think that is as much as I can say at this point.

Oh, yes, the students-at-risk formula grant can be used to support children who themselves are addicted or involved with drugs and alcohol. So is not like there are no supports at all, but I know the value that is recognized in the Addictions Foundation program and I can understand why everybody would like to be able to have that in their schools. There are, by the way, in the funding formula some consideration for small schools. That may well be part of the consideration of small schools and divisions in the handling of their budgets. So that is a number of points made in response to the one question.

Ms. Friesen: Can the minister tell me about another part of this department which is going to create a process–and I am quoting on page 61–that links categorical funding with student outcome data? Can the minister tell me what areas that will be directed at?

Mr. McCrae: I can give the honourable member a couple of examples of the linking of categorical funding with hoped-for or expected outcomes. We could talk about special education –no, we will talk first about the English language development for native students. That is an area where it might be appropriate to link categorical funding to some results, because the honourable member was asking questions about that before, and I wonder myself. I mean, if we are going to have English language development for native students and we are spending X number of dollars, this is not unlike the whole system of testing, too, to try to ensure that we are getting value for our education dollar.

I do not think the department is all that convinced yet that the English language development for native students dollars are getting the kinds of results that one might reasonably expect. I think that is an observation that representatives of the department might make, and I think we need to try to find out why that is the case.

A second example would be the linking of our Special Education Review and linking funding for that with outcomes. We have spent, I think, a fair bit of time discussing what it is we want to do and how we want to do it. We do need to know that we are not just spinning our wheels, not just spending valuable resources without knowing that there is any hope of a good outcome. I know that the challenges in special education are very significant, and I know that the needs that present at our schools seem to be coming more and more volume of need all the time and more and more diversity of need. We really need some talented people, which may really be the key, and yet we will let Ms. Loeppky and her group get on with this work.

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Simply, I know that we are spending double the amount of money we used to spend for the special education requirements of Manitoba children at $111 million, and we do not have sufficient assurance that we are getting the best results for those $111 million because I think that it has not developed that way. It is time that we did turn our attention to that through our categorical funding. We simply need to know that our kids are getting absolutely the best that is possible with the money invested because we know that they can do so much better given the appropriate intervention during their school years and before that even.

That is part of what we are doing with special education and the work that is being undertaken, which we have discussed at some length. We do want to know something about outcomes. We want to develop the practices that are best able to bring about those outcomes and to be as consistent as we can given the diversity of problems that Manitoba's children are presenting to the schools as they enter the system.

The staff from the Program Implementation Branch are working with the indicators unit to investigate outcomes for students who are at risk not to succeed. So I think the honourable member is right to raise the issue in this way. We simply do need to get some results that we can somehow measure and assure ourselves that we are getting value for the money. It is a lot of money, $111 million is a lot of money, and we know there is an extensive challenge there. It is double the money we spent 10 years ago, and we need to know whether it should be double or whether it should be more. We think it needs to be more. We know it needs to be more, and we have invested $2 million additionally this year to get us going on our special education challenges.

Hopefully, as we move through the process of implementation, we will identify some practices that can be applied to large numbers of special needs kids in our system. Even after we have done all the best we can and identified all the best practices, there are going to be children for whom none of the programs would seem to have been appropriately designed. I know that is going to happen. So we are going to have to rely on professionals in the school system and help develop their skills, their maximum. If they have some skills that they can pass on that are useful in helping our kids, then that is going to have to be part of it, too.

I have no illusions that we can have a one-size-fits-all system for the children in Manitoba who have special needs, because, as I have said, those needs are quite diverse indeed.

Ms. Friesen: The minister has framed his response in the context of a remedial program as well as the special needs program. In the Estimates book it is actually phrased very broadly: linking categorical funding with student outcome data. Is it the minister's intention to link student outcome data on testing with categorical funding?

Mr. McCrae: There are a number of indicators that are being looked at, or will be looked at, as we continue with our work. Graduation rates, of course, are relevant to any study of our system. Truancy trends, a very important issue. Student performance on a school basis, on a provincial basis. All these things are relevant. I know that there are other systemic issues that we need to look at, not only in relation to our funding and our programming for special needs. I am becoming more and more alarmed by the truancy that I have come across as I visit schools in Manitoba. I know I had to go to school every day, or else I was in big trouble. I do not know if that is the case in every circumstance. If I was not in school, I had to have a pretty good reason for it. I am not sure that what I am seeing follows that particular tradition. That is an issue that is of concern to me.

In various places in my travels, discussions with teachers and parents, the issue of decorum in the classroom is really a matter of concern for Manitobans, the way people conduct themselves. I am hearing more and more complaints, and from teachers too, about their ability to maintain order and decorum in the classroom so that they can carry on and have a positive learning environment. That is something that is of concern to me. The word "respect" comes up. There is a lack of respect in some quarters. I am concerned about that. School safety, the safety of our schools, is important, too, as we address the indicators that tell us whether we have a successful education system under our direction or not. I know we have an excellent education system and excellent people in it, but attention to all of these things is imperative if we are going to continue to be a successful society.

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A number of indicators are being looked at, like graduation rates and truancy trends and student performance on a school basis and provincial basis, linking categorical grants like special needs and students at risk and English language development for native students and early literacy and intervention, linking those grants to indicators and to outcomes such as graduation rates, attendance, truancy, behaviour, student performance, both school and provincial. All of that kind of a linking is something that certainly should be looked at and examined and re-examined.

I do not think we should forget, though, to remember to be mindful of what school business people tell me. I am speaking of superintendents and their secretary-treasurers and people like that and directors who suggest that we have to pay attention to the base funding level for school divisions, too. They are quick to be very grateful to the government for the various categorical funds that are made available for things like professional development and technology development and Reading Recovery and those sorts of categorical things, yet they say that now we need to address this again next year because you have to be mindful that you have appropriate levels for the base operations of school divisions, too.

They are absolutely right. You need to draw the appropriate balance each and every year in working with our school funding advisory committee, which has representation from school divisions, the independent schools, the Manitoba Teachers' Society, trustees, superintendents and parents. That is a committee that we need to have looking at funding issues each and every year, because it is probably true to say that you do not need to have the identical mix every year. That is why in a given year the government through its consultations will become aware that there is lot of money needed for wiring and cabling in our classrooms and in our schools. There is money needed for more professional development because of the demands that curriculum is making on teachers, that New Directions calls on teachers to be developed professionally a little more or a little less or whatever, but certainly more is usually what we hear and in recent times for good reasons because of changes in the system. So we need to listen carefully to what the funding committee tells us.

We are always, all of us as–I do not think I call myself an educator, but I guess technically that is what I am now as minister, but, Mr. Chairman, I am very interested in graduation rates. I am very interested in attendance. I am getting more and more interested in that all the time and issues related to truancy. What are those kids doing if they are not in school and if they are not very, very sick or have a broken leg or something like that which was my excuse for not going to school, and I never was fortunate enough to have a broken leg.

So I think that we need to get back to that kind of attachment to education on the part of parents and children, as well. I am talking about truancy at extremely disturbingly young ages. This is really bothersome for me to know that there are parents in Manitoba who, for whatever reasons, do not see to it that their children are sent off to school. I visit classrooms and I think, well, we sure do not have a teacher-student ratio problem here, and that is because so many kids are absent. Sometimes it is for good and legitimate reasons, because there is a flu bug going around or something like that. But I am quite concerned when I am told by teachers that, oh, well, it is actually quite a lot larger class but a lot of the kids are not here today, and maybe that was the case yesterday, too, and maybe that will be the case tomorrow.

It is a certain type of issue for a kid in Grade 11 or 12 to be skipping school for whatever reason. It is quite another matter for a child in Grade 3 or Grade 2 or Grade 1 who, simply through neglect or whatever reason, is not even sent to school. I find that extremely discouraging and calling for some kind of attention on my part but also on the part of the Partners in Education, including the members around this table, including the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Tweed). I do not know what the rate of truancy is in Killarney or somewhere like that, but I am assuming, if there is any truancy, that it is a matter of concern.

We need to analyze all these linkages to see possible cause and effect or no effect. We need to understand that, and we certainly have excellent education professionals in this province and in this department of government and others, including the people in the field, who can help us examine those linkages to see how improvements can be made.

What if we find, for example, that grants for English language development are shown to have no effect? The days are over when we can measure our success by the amount of money we spend. This has certainly characterized the past in Manitoba, and we were never more poorly served than when we simply measured the value of our efforts by the amount of money we spent. There are actually people living, alive and breathing in Manitoba, who think that the more money you spend on welfare, the better your antipoverty program. There are people like that in this province, hopefully, not very many, but I know there are some. I just think that that is the wrong-headed approach that got us into so much trouble. You know, cumulatively in the last 11 years, we have spent over $6 billion to pay our creditors on interest charges alone, over $6 billion wasted for programs that were long since bought, paid for, enjoyed and discontinued.

You know, I can understand doing that, to borrow money to buy your house. I can see that; you need a roof over your head. But, as soon as you start borrowing money to pay for the groceries and to pay for the things that you consume on a daily or weekly basis, and you are borrowing money to do that, you know you are going into the hole. Well, I wish that we had, I wish we were in a position to spend another $500 million in various priority areas in the last few years when federal shortfalls of funding have been such a problem.

We have had to backfill all that. We did it and it was hard, but we could have used more. We could have used more, but, no, our hard-earned taxpayers' dollars that were spent years ago are now still having to be raised through taxation to pay for the excesses of more than a decade ago. I genuinely regret that. I was here for part of that. Certainly, I did not support it, but I was here for part of that. For that, I feel ashamed as a Manitoban that I was close enough to that sort of decision making, and yet I had no opportunity, no power to do anything about it.

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An Honourable Member: How do you sleep at night?

Mr. McCrae: Well, I sleep at night knowing–the honourable Minister of Housing (Mr. Reimer) asks how I sleep at night. I answer by saying: I sleep at night by knowing that good solid stewardship has replaced that particular approach to governance, and we now are able, in an orderly way, to discharge that horrendous debt, which really only was raised over the period of about seven years, but it was a seven-year spending splurge, seven years of profligacy, and it is going to take us 30 years to come out from under it. Thanks to the people of Manitoba, I guess I should say, for having the wisdom to go along with a system that understands that you cannot live outside your means, you cannot live beyond your means. You certainly cannot do it for very long. We did it too long as it was as a provincial jurisdiction. I regret it very much, but I am very happy that we are on the road to a better way of doing the business of the people of Manitoba.

You certainly do not do the kids with special education requirements any favour by frittering away all the resources of the province and sending it off to New York and Tokyo and places like that to some people we do not even know, who do not live here, who just have a lot of money to lend us so that we can pay them back at usurious rates of interest. Well, I just think that, if we had not done that, today we would have $500-million worth of flexibility. To the extent that that $500 million is sent off to the creditors, that is how much democracy we have been deprived of. We go into our budget year with no choice whatsoever about that as a priority. Our democracy has been assaulted to that extent.

I simply wanted to put that on the record that it continues to bother me. It is kind of like a hangover that I have, having seen so many of my own personal tax dollars being used, and I still do. It is not just my dollars; it is all my fellow Manitobans' dollars that are being spent to pay for things that we have long since finished having as a society. I really find that regrettable.

The government I represent here has been taking very responsible steps to try to straighten out that mess that was created in this province. It has not been done, we are on the road, we have the plan, but, as I say, it takes so many years, I could have great-grandchildren by the time the leftover of that binge has been discharged. I cannot think of anything more irresponsible to future generations. Talk about caring. Anybody who cares about children would not get us into such a mess. That being said, we have got ourselves on the way to getting ourselves out of that mess, and in doing so, we do need to analyze linkages to look at causes and effects and whether we are getting value for the money. So we do need to make decisions when we find that dollars spent for things like English language development, when we cannot see that we are getting the kind of effect that the level of funding suggests we should, then we do need to look at it pretty hard and make some decisions about it. So I hope that is helpful.

Ms. Friesen: The outcomes that the minister has mentioned, some of them are measurable, some are not. Decorum in the classroom, lack of respect, safety of schools, those are many a parent's concerns about schools but very difficult to measure them when one is determining funding. Graduation rates, yes, measurable, and the minister actually has that information. Tests, the minister has that information.

I was very interested when the minister raised truancy because that is an issue I have raised with previous ministers, and I have been essentially told that is the division's responsibility, that the minister did not know what truancy rates were and did not have any comparative data across the province and had no means of getting it. So any Minister of Education in a tight corner always resorts to the partnership argument that, yes, that is the division's responsibility. So I commend the minister for being interested in that and for raising that as an issue because I think in a number of divisions and amongst parent councils that is certainly an issue.

Some divisions, of course, have restored truancy officers that they had cut at various times as faced with the difficult budgets with which they had been presented. I do think that is something that I look forward to getting some information from the minister next session in Estimates should there be a next session. I do not know whether we are having a fall election or a spring election, but if there is another Estimates with this government, that would be one of the areas of data collection that we would be interested in looking at.

Mr. Chairman, I wanted to pass this line if he is ready.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 16.2. School Programs (e) Program Implementation (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $5,082,400–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $3,253,800–pass.

16.2.(f) Student Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,930,500–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $697,000–pass.

Resolution 16.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $32,045,900 for Education and Training, School Programs, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2000.

Item 16.3. Bureau de l'éducation franH aise (a) Division Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $143,200. Shall the item pass?

Ms. Friesen: We are generally looking at Bureau de l'éducation franH aise here, so I think if it is agreeable to you and the minister, Mr. Chairman, I will ask the few general questions that I have on the bureau, and then we can pass all of the bureau lines.

Mr. McCrae: I am happy if the honourable member asks the questions. I cannot guarantee that she will get full and complete answers until I have indicated that I feel I have answered the questions, but as long as she is okay with that. If she has questions that I cannot answer today, I will undertake to–

Ms. Friesen: Absolutely.

Mr. McCrae: Fair enough.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 16.3.(a) Division Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $143,200–pass?

Ms. Friesen: No, what I meant was I will be skipping across lines, but we will pass the whole block.

The areas I want to ask questions then on the bureau, I am looking for an update on the federal-provincial agreements and French language education, including the Collège St. Boniface if it is convenient to do that at this stage. I am interested in the court case. Obviously there are limited issues that can be raised here about the court case, but if the minister has some reflections on this that he is able to put on the record, I think I would be interested in knowing what the government's position is on this. It, I would say, came as a surprise to me. I had understood that there was agreement between the government and the division scolaire over the issues of the apportioning of French language instruction.

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Thirdly, I am interested in the increase in the amount of funding for this section of the department, and there certainly is a considerable increase, much of it I believe allocated to the preparation and marking of tests. So I wonder if the minister could give me some update on what is anticipated as the outcomes for that section of the department.

Mr. McCrae: Just recently, last week I think it was, maybe a week before that, I joined the Honourable Ron Duhamel at the St. Boniface College to announce the five-year agreement that we have with the federal government through the department headed up by the Honourable Sheila Copps. That $6 million is the provincial part of that agreement. It is to help them with their programs and to develop new programs and to increase enrollment programs like business administration, multimedia program.

This five-year agreement ends March 31, 2003, and sets the foundation for the sustainable future of Manitoba's only French language university and community college. It is designed to enable the college to ensure access to complete and high-quality programs, develop new programs in French, improve services to students, carry out special teacher support projects, develop and enhance teaching tools by using multimedia technology, and increase recruitment efforts to attract more Francophone students.

As I said, a total of $12 million will be provided on an equal cost-sharing basis over the duration of the agreement. The flow of the funding was determined by the resource requirements as set out in the business plan of the college, which forms an integral part of the agreement.

In 1998-99, there was $521,000 from Canada under that and $763,700 from Manitoba. In this fiscal year, there is going to be $1.675 million from Canada and $1,043,700 from Manitoba. In 2001, there will be $2 million from Canada and $1,397,500 from Manitoba. In 2001-2002, there will be $1,275,000 from Canada and $1,397,500 from Manitoba. In 2002 and 2003, there will be $529,000 from Canada and $1,397,600 from Manitoba, in total $6 million from each of the two jurisdictions over the five-year period.

The newly signed Canada-Manitoba sub-sidiary agreement on the development of the Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface provides operating support only. Canada and Manitoba are expecting to negotiate separate cost-sharing agreements that will provide capital funding for the addition of a student centre and a multimedia centre as well as for the upgrading of the college's heating system. The combined costs of these projects were estimated to be in excess of $3.2 million in 1998, but we made some progress. I know that we could always wish we could make more progress. We have made some significant progress. Those are pretty significant levels of funding.

With respect to the Official Languages Programs and Administrative Services which is part of it, I think part of the question–yes, it is part of the question raised by the honourable member. For the Bureau de l'J ducation franH aise, there is an expansion of standards testing activities, including the development of testing for franH ais immersion at the Senior 4 level. That is $502,800. There is money for the development of a sciences humaines framework of learning outcomes under the Western Canadian protocol project and the preparatory work leading to the national conference on the interchange of Canadian studies to be held in Winnipeg in May 2000, and that is going to cost $77,400. The development of independent study program, teacher-mediated program for distance delivery education in franH ais langue premiP re, Senior 3, and franH ais langue seconde immersion, Senior 3, that is a $40,000 issue; the translation of various educational renewal curriculum documents and other materials from English to French, $269,700; general salary increases and adjustments and other factors for $241,200, which represents a total of $1,131,100.

Now, I cannot talk a lot about the court case the honourable member referred to, simply for the obvious reasons. I am advised that the parents' association has filed a Statement of Claim in the Court of Queen's Bench claiming that the province has failed in its legal commitments as set out under the Supreme Court ruling of March of '93, wherein it instructed the province to create a Francophone government structure. I guess the best way to describe things when you have things before the courts is look at what is available in the courts or listen to what is said in the courts. That is about the best I can do. I do not want to do anything or say anything that will have an impact, because nothing I do or say should have an impact on that particular case.

The claim makes certain assertions and talks about money. We obviously do not see it that way, and we make our case according to our pleadings and through our legal representation. It has not proceeded to court at this time, and, as a matter of fact, certain of the legal papers are still being exchanged, I guess, through the discovery process that is part of a lawsuit.

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Ms. Friesen: So I am understanding on the last issue from the minister that the government has not yet written and deposed its claim?

Mr. McCrae: I understand we have put in our Statement of Defence. I do have some background in the court system. It is very often the case where at the initial stages a plaintiff will make certain specific allegations in a Statement of Claim and the defendant, just in order to be part of the whole thing, will simply put in a Statement of Defence basically denying every-thing. From there, things get refined through the pleadings, through discovery, through the exchange of information. Defendants very often want to find out exactly, in a more specific way, what it is they have to defend, and plaintiffs very often try to get defendants to be more specific, too.

I guess that is the process that we are in at this point.

Ms. Friesen: I have a few more questions in this area. The minister mentioned $269,000 for the provision of materials in French for new curriculums. This is certainly one of the areas that I hear constantly from parents and teachers, is that in both the immersion programs and the FranH ais programs, that there simply have not been sufficient resource materials available in French to keep up with new curriculum.

Could the minister then perhaps be more specific on what materials have been prepared, and is there a schedule for the preparation of further materials over the next 12 months to meet some of those issues that people have been raising? I know they have been raising them with the minister as well.

Mr. McCrae: I am sensitive to that concern whenever I hear it raised, and I am trying to get a really good handle on at what point we are at, because I think initially that certainly came out, and as we move further along into implementation in almost all of the different areas, I am hearing less and less of that type of complaint as materials are being made available and teachers are trying to become familiar with it. As they get more familiar with it, the criticism just subsides more and more all the time. In respect of the whole testing thing, I note in the papers yesterday that the honourable member is quoted in there as, you know, getting a little more specific. Grade 12, you kind of tend to favour Grade 12 tests now, and 6 and 9, I am not so sure about. I would have to get the paper out to get the exact words. But, you know, we keep going in this direction, we will have you demanding more tests out of us before you are done, and we will look at that request if and when it comes forward.

However, with respect to the $269,000 question that the member asked about materials in French for new curriculum, these are all in French, but I will do my best to translate for myself since I am a little more respectful of my Francophone compatriots than to abuse them by having them listen to my French.

So there is a policy document for the course offerings via the Internet, if I am translating correctly, which is a 50-page document, and it is anticipated that that would be translated for use by July of this year. How is that? Not bad, eh? There is another one called IMYM, which is an interdisciplinary multimedia document, and it has 250 pages. That one is expected to be available for August 1999. Another IMYM one, this one is an IMYM 7, 2000-page document expected to be Services de traduction. I take it that means translated by that time, by October of 1999. Another one, Sécurité en éducation physique, 200-page document for November of 1999. IMYM 6, 250 pages for January 2000. Collaborating for Growth, 50 pages, and that is ready January 2000. S1, half-a-credit transition course, 150 pages, November of 1999. S1, another transition one, 150 pages, for November 1999. Applications 30S.

Ms. Friesen: What are we transitioning from, to and from?

Mr. McCrae: It is for struggling grade niners, this Cours de transition. It is in mathematics, and there are two of them, one half-credit and another one that is a half-credit. One hundred and fifty pages each, and they are both going to be available November 1999. Then there is another one called–I will stick with the French since I am not sure always what it means–Appliqué 30S Programme d'études, 300 pages. I know the honourable member knows what these mean. May of '99. Programme d'études. What is that? Mathématiques. Appliqué 30S exercices, 300 pages, for April of '99. Same course, mathematics. Pre-calculus, 40S, 350 pages, March of 2000. Pre-calculus, 40S Exercices accumulatives, to go with the one I just mentioned, 300 pages, January 2000. Pre-calculus, 40S Cours autodidactiques, self-taught, 450 pages, April 2000. Appliqué 40S Programme d'études, still math, 300 pages, March 2000. Appliqué 40S exercices, 250 pages, February 2000. This is all for math when we are talking about applied math, pre-calculus math, and appliqué math.

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This is for consumer math; all the rest of them are for consumer math. Consommateur 40S, programme d'études, 250 pages for March 2000; Consommateur 40S, guide d'élèves, it is a student guide, V, 180 pages for February 2000; Consommateur 40S, another student guide, VI, 180 pages, March 2000; Consommateur 40S, another student self-directed, V, 250 pages, February 2000; Consommateur 40S, self-directed, VI, 250 pages, March 2000; The Learning Equation, that is a CD-ROM; and then there is Mathématiques Pre-calculus II.

What we have here is a total of 6,910 pages. Okay, that is $672,550, and $270,000 of that is new money. So that is a lot of information for the teachers. There is no doubt in my mind that they are going to be busy with this and challenged by it, but that is the information and schedule that is expected that this information can be made available.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I just want to make sure I am understanding it correctly. The department, then, has focused on the preparation of documents in mathematics for français and immersion programs. I wanted to ask further to that: how much of this material is translated? How much is prepared in French? Of the translation, how much is done in-house, and how much is contracted out?

Mr. McCrae: Yes, math, then science. The honourable member asked about the translation. All of it is in English and needs to be translated, and the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship looks after that. I guess you would have to ask them how they do it, but some of that is done by the department itself, some of it is contracted out.

We do know that this year the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship's (Mrs. Vodrey) department is getting under this budget four new staff years. I am sure some of that resource would be used on the projects that we have been talking about. [interjection] They are a dedicated staff for us, for Education.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to track the cost of that. Where would I find that in these Estimates? Is there any allocation of funds for translation of the materials we have been talking about in these Estimates, or is it simply handed over to Culture, Heritage and Citizenship and it appears in their budget?

Mr. McCrae: Culture, Heritage and Citizenship is doing the work. They bill us for it, and we have the $675,500 in here for all of that. It can be broken down better this time next year actually.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I have, I think, only two or three more questions in this area, if the minister is scheduling his staff, and then we can move to the next section.

I am interested this year in the extension of French language bursaries to Grade 11 and Grade 12 students. I wonder if the minister could tell me what impact that has had on the number of bursaries granted. I am speaking of the summer language programs. [interjection] That is one. The second one is longer. I want to deal with the decline of Basic French, which we have raised in Question Period.

Mr. McCrae: The honourable member asked about bursaries in French language for Grades11 and 12. I remind the honourable member that this is through the Official Languages in Education Program. It is all federal money but here is some information about it. The summer language bursary program, the improvement of linguistic skills of post-secondary students through participation in the summer language bursary program.

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Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I will elaborate. Yes, I know it is a federal program that is administered through this department. What I am interested in is that this year, I understand, the rules were changed, I assume, in consultation to extend the program to include Grades 11 and 12 students. I am wondering what impact that has had on Manitoba. Were there applications from Grades 11 and 12 students? Has there been uptake in this area? What kind of impact has it had on the post-secondary students who, in the past, have been the users of this system?

Mr. McCrae: We may be able to get more detailed response to the applications, the uptake of that before the day is out, but I would encourage the honourable member to go to her next point. At this point we will go to work on providing some answer in detail for the honourable member.

Ms. Friesen: I have raised in Question Period with the minister the issue of the decline in the number of students taking Basic French in Manitoba. This section of the department I believe keeps the records of the number of students taking Basic French. I wonder if the minister is able either today or at a later date to table longitudinal studies say of the last three or four years what has been happening across Manitoba in Basic French.

Mr. McCrae: The honourable member did indeed raise this question. It is about declining enrollment in Basic French courses due to the introduction of New Directions curriculum document. I guess I cannot off the top of my head want to agree. I do not want to agree that it would be due to the New Directions curriculum document. Basic French never has been mandatory. There has been a decline in Manitoba's Basic French enrollment from a high of 90,811 in '89-90 to this year's total of 72,905. This represents a decline of 17,906 students or 19.7 percent, almost 20 percent.

The New Directions curriculum document at first reading did reduce the possible allocation of time to optional supplementary courses, such as Basic French. However, that was not the intent of the new policy. In a letter to superintendents and principals in February of 1996, the minister at that time indicated to the field that any school offering Basic French or other second languages could reallocate a small portion of English language arts time to meet the required time allocation to the Basic French course. The Province of Manitoba is concerned about all its students and their language needs as they meet the challenges of the 21st Century. However, the reduction in Basic French enrollment can be attributed to factors other than a perceived change in curriculum policy.

The honourable Minister of Housing and of Urban Affairs (Mr. Reimer) is acutely concerned with language and the ability to use the English language in a constructive and extremely clever way. He has demonstrated in the House virtually every time he has had opportunity to speak his own proficiency, certainly in the English language.

An Honourable Member: Jack, I think there is an element of irony here. I think we should talk about German and expanding German, at least not letting it decline from where it is.

Mr. McCrae: Well, at least he does not pretzelize, I know that much.

The reduction of Basic French enrollment can be attributed to factors other than a perceived change in curriculum policy. Do not forget the decline in federal funding for French education has undermined our efforts to fully support this program. The offering of other optional supplementary courses, such as technology-related subjects at the junior high level, influence choices that students make. While Basic French courses steadily increased in the '80s, in the '90s there has been a shift away from French courses to other language courses. We have seen an increase in popularity in Spanish and Asiatic languages as our province and our country become more involved in commercial ventures in Central and South America as well as in Asia.

The whole search for unity in our country has had something to do with this, I am sure. The province continues to work with the federal government to reinstate previous levels of funding for minority language education. It is simply not fair, true, accurate to say that New Directions is the culprit here. In fact, New Directions, here we go again, I do not know how this comes up. Well, I do know how it comes up, and I feel like I need to make a response. New Directions are very, very supportable. I do not want to go on with this for too long, because I know the honourable member has other things she wants to get on with, but it is certainly important to note the difference in approaches that are offered to the people of Manitoba respecting education. Maybe I will just leave it at that.

Ms. Friesen: I want to follow up with that in two areas. One is that the minister's argument is that students are making choices, so essentially it is the market argument that Spanish and Asiatic languages are taking up student choices in languages, where French is losing. So I wonder, first of all, if the minister could tell me which Asiatic languages, which high schools, and how many students that are taught, similarly in Spanish. Are these new courses, or should we say what we would need to do is to look at the increase in the teaching in those areas since '89-90 to see in fact if that does offer evidence for the minister's argument?

Secondly, I am interested in how the decline in the number of students choosing French has affected the grants to Manitoba from the official languages agreement.

Mr. McCrae: I am not going to answer the last part of the question until I am satisfied that I would not in any way jeopardize the outcome of proceedings that might be going on before the courts, that being grants to–is that the question, or are we talking about something different?

Ms. Friesen: No, we are talking Basic French. We are not talking franH ais. It is Basic French. I am wondering if the decline in enrollment in Basic French has had an effect upon the grants from the federal government or the agreements with the federal government for second language education.

My other part of that question was essentially: where is the evidence on Spanish and Asiatic languages? I would be interested in looking at that.

Mr. McCrae: I am going to table, I understand I can make a list of new enrollments in Asiatic languages and Spanish. I understand I have some information about that. If that turns out to be true, I will be tabling it.

I do, yes, I do make the market argument as it has been characterized by the honourable member, but I do not make the case that French is losing out to the Asiatic and Spanish. I think that if there is a decline in Basic French language enrollment, I have no science here that can link it up directly with those types of choices. I mean, it may be that it has to do with other things too, choices being made about technology or choices being made about other subject areas. I would not make a direct point that French is losing out to Asiatic languages or Spanish. I do not think that you can do that, not with precision at least. I do not think it can be done with precision. It may be the honourable member is right about it to some extent. To what extent, I am not able to say. It is quite possible, I suppose, although we just do not have a clear way to know that the 20 percent, we think it is quite possible that the federal funding has hurt Basic French enrollment, but again it is very hard to say.

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Let us say there are four or five reasons for this happening. I do not know how much of the reason is the fault of the federal government, how much is because of other choices respecting other languages or other course offerings. I simply do not know that. I know that we do not hear as much these days about the value of learning the French language as we did during the '80s. I know that for a fact. I know that in the case of one of my daughters, it was a case of, she had the Basic French from school, but not enough to be able to work in the language and felt that she may have been passed over in favour of a bilingual candidate for a job that came up in Montreal. She is now thinking of taking another run at that but sprucing up her French in preparation for it. But that is not necessarily the experience of large, growing numbers of Manitobans. If you look at what is happening in Quebec since they elected a separatist government, there are people not so much attracted to that province anymore. In fact, they are seeing a decline in people's willingness to stay around. I mean, I am not speaking of Francophone people so much as I am Anglophone people, who are looking for opportunities outside that province.

So I think this really gets us into a larger issue that goes to the very substance of our country, which is very dear to my heart as one who has been involved in those discussions. I do not think we talk about this as much as we did in the '80s. I do not think that it is emphasized as much. That may be another reason. It may be not seen in some households as being as essential to a successful future as it used to be. I do not know. That is just some of my thinking on the point.

Ms. Friesen: Well, I raise it as a matter of concern, Mr. Chairman. I raise it as a matter of concern with the minister, because it seems to me if there is not–the Basic French is generally not enough to get you a job, but it is enough to give you the basis to go on. It is enough to give you the interest and the sense of accomplishment to go on in that language.

What concerns me is that we are not emphasizing it in New Directions, that the acquisition of a second language, be it French, German, Spanish, or otherwise, is not part of the New Directions thrust. It is one of the areas that I think is the mark of the kind of education which we ought to have in Manitoba, both as a multicultural province and as a keystone province. Very concerned that we are seeing students graduate and will increasingly see them graduate without even basic French or basic German, basic Spanish, another language.

It is an important educational tool, it is an important cultural tool, it is important for Manitoba in the global economy. It is important I think for Manitoba graduates that they not cut themselves off from seven million people. That I think is what we are saying when we create curriculum patterns which seem to discourage the acquisition of some elements of a second language.

It is not the case in other provinces. Some other provinces have what I call a narrow curriculum framework, such as Manitoba does, but not all of them do. Certainly Quebec is one that does not. British Columbia is another. Both of them have important international populations. The minister may want to think that people are moving out of Quebec. Yes, some are, but increasingly people are moving into the island of Montreal and Montreal is becoming an international community. Our students without those languages are not going to be able to participate in one of the two major cities in Canada. That really disturbs me.

The message that is being sent from the Department of Education on this I think is a serious one. It is one that I urge the minister to look at. I am not saying it just in the context of French, I am looking at the creation of international cities. Montreal is doing it, Vancouver is doing it, Toronto obviously is. The kind of education system we have here and the kind of enabling of the acquisition of second languages I think is something that the Department of Education, the minister in particular, ought to look at.

I know that from the perspective of the teachers of French language that there have been a number of proposals made to the minister about ways in which French can be encouraged in the curriculum. I assume that other language teachers have made the same case. I know that certainly the parents for German education have made this case.

I wonder what the response of the minister is, overall, to the kind of education that we are encouraging in Manitoba, the idea of a Manitoba graduate who will have some familiarity with a second language.

In many cases in Manitoba we have that fantastic opportunity to have children with three and four languages. I simply do not think we are taking advantage of it. I have raised this with numbers of ministers. It is a great disappointment to me that we see this 20 percent decline in French language. I look forward to seeing the statistics for other languages.

I draw this relationship between the kind of province which Manitoba is, the kind of province it could become, and the teaching of second and the encouragement of third and fourth languages.

I look at Gordon Bell graduation, for example, the high school in my own area. You know, there are some years in that graduating class when there are 15 to 20 languages represented. I know that that is not an isolated occurrence. I am sure that the Chairman here also has a number of languages, particularly Spanish, represented in his constituency, Spanish, German, English, and we could have given them French.

That is a tremendous opportunity for any province. It actually sets us off to some extent from Saskatchewan, which does not have the same. It has French, and it has German. It does not have the same levels of Spanish; it does not have the same levels, I think, of Asiatic languages that we have. That is an opportunity for Manitoba. It is going to take a while to turn that ship of education around in the languages area, and I urge the minister, not just in French but in other languages as well, to take a serious look at New Directions, at the acquisition of languages generally in the Manitoba curriculum and to link that to the economic future of Manitoba.

Mr. McCrae: It is very hard to respond in any way on that one except to say that that sounds like a very important point the honourable member makes. I do not take any pleasure in any decline that would have the effect of making us less competitive, not only in a business sense but in a cultural sense. So I appreciate what the honourable member is saying about this, and I appreciate her saying it about variety and number of language opportunities, but certainly with regard to French language basic course offering and course enrollment. I think the honourable member makes good points in that regard.

Back to the summer bursary question. The expected total overall Grade 11 plus secondary is 240. The breakdown is Grade 11, 36; post-secondary 204. Given that last year the post-secondary total alone was 235 and this year will likely be 204, there is a decline in the post-secondary uptake, but we do not need to read that as a trend, I am advised, since the post-secondary total for 1997-98 was still less than 195.

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Ms. Friesen: No, I will not read it as a trend, I hope it is not. I just want to put on the record that I have had some experience of those programs and they are fantastic. Some of the teaching in those programs is amongst the best teaching that I think goes on in the country, and it happens right across the country. The mix of students who go to those programs is phenomenal in itself. I think it is the kind of program that I hope the minister will give thought to expanding, and I know to expanding in the sense of making known to students.

I do my best every year in my class to promote these. I will not say it is an uphill battle, but it is an investment of time for students, but I have never met one student who has been to those programs who has come away disappointed. That is one of the best ways of promoting it is simply to find somebody to come in and talk to other students and say, look, this is the way it was and here is what I gained from that. I think it is a very important program and I hope that the minister will find, through his contacts with teachers, whose contacts with parents and with students, ways of ensuring that they understand the opportunities that are available to them. Particularly at the Grades 11 and 12 level, I think there are some opportunities there to enhance the teaching of Basic French to encourage students to see that as a goal at the end of their Basic French education, and in fact to see it as a way of continuing and enabling themselves to become bilingual and to be able to participate in whatever profession or line of work that they choose that they will be able to do it at a national level. Because without that, we all know, we have all faced it at every federal-provincial conference we have gone to, whether it is a student conference, whether it is a conference in a professional area, that without the two languages you are at a considerable disadvantage. That is not where Manitoba should be and it is a long-term process and we have got to continue to work at it.

Mr. McCrae: I will respond very briefly. I appreciate everything the honourable member has said about this and I simply found an area where I am having trouble disagreeing with her. It is all about maximizing all kinds of opportunities not only in an economic sense but also in a quality of life and a cultural sense. I still believe very strongly in our country as it exists today, having just had the privilege of visiting Quebec City last weekend and struggling along–I think my understanding is a lot better than my ability to communicate in French–a thoroughly enjoyable experience to go to a city where, I do not know, the overwhelming majority of people are Francophone and a very large proportion are unilingual Francophone and still to manage at my level shows that there is hope for a lot of students in Manitoba and across the country.

I still believe very strongly in the nature of this country and the way that we want to proceed, live together as a united nation in the future. I have very strong feelings about that and I think the issue of respect for language differences is really not as tough an issue as it was at one time. I think there is a lot more understanding about that today than there was a generation ago. We do not want to lose momentum in that respect. I see the numbers and I feel the same concern as the honourable member, I just simply do not want to blame any one thing for it. I think there are a number of things that come into this, but it is very hard to disagree with the honourable member, especially in the way she has put this particular matter.

Mr. Chairperson: 16.3.(a) Bureau de l'éducation française, Division and Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $143,200–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $23,400 –pass.

16.3.(b) Curriculum Development and Implementation (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,347,700–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $835,300–pass.

16.3.(c) Educational Support Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,403,900–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $715,800–pass.

16.3.(d) Official Languages Programs and Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $902,600–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,162,200–pass; (3) Assistance $376,700–pass.

16.3.(e) Library and Materials Production (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $461,900–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $279,900–pass.

Resolution 16.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $7,652,600 for Education and Training, Bureau de l'J ducation franH aise, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2000.

Resolution 16.4. Support to Schools (a) Schools Finance (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $904,600–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $162,300–pass.

An Honourable Member: Whoa, go back.

An Honourable Member: He has promised to stop at 4.

An Honourable Member: Go back. We were about to ask for a five-minute break, you see.

An Honourable Member: We are going to have to revert to those two lines.

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, I was having a private conversation with the honourable member, and the committee was busy passing appropriations. We need to go back. I would be agreeable to doing that, going back to 16.4.(a) and agreeing to reopen the ones that have been passed while we were having our conversation.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Mr. Chair, my only concern is that if by some efforts the committee completed its work in this area today, just that the next in line, the minister and critic, would be given notice so that they would be able to be here for the remainder of the day. So that is all I was inquiring of my colleagues.

Mr. Chairperson: Is there agreement of the committee to revert to 16.4. Support to Schools (a) Schools Finance (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits?

Mr. McCrae: Before we go through and actually pass these things, I do not know about anybody else, but I could stand a five- or six-minute break.

Mr. Chairperson: Is there agreement of the committee that we take a five-minute recess? [agreed] We will reconvene at 4:45 p.m.? [agreed]

________

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Order, please. I believe that when we recessed for a moment that there was the will of the committee to revert to 16.4. Support to Schools (a) Schools Finance (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits and (2) Other Expenditures, although they had been passed. I think that we moved on rather quickly, so what I will do is allow open questions under that area at this time with the will of the committee.

Mr. McCrae: Yes, that was the understanding, I believe, Mr. Chairman, and I agree to it.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Okay. Then we shall proceed.

Ms. Friesen: This is the area of financial support to schools. This is something that we have raised in Question Period and in other political debate over a long period of time. I think the debate is fairly well set. The opposition maintains that the actual dollars to public schools have been decreasing, and that is using the documentation of the FRAME reports of the last number of years. The minister's response is that the percentage of funding going to the Education department has been increasing.

We have also raised the issue, and I raised it I think in my preliminary statements some weeks ago, of the impact of rising costs in education, rising particularly in areas like library acquisitions and information technology and also in transport costs. Issues which for the most part are beyond the control of the department, but certainly the issue of the declining purchasing power in an educational framework of the dollars which are allocated is something that is obviously of ongoing concern to people in the education system.

So the minister may want to put some comments on the record. I think the debate is fairly well established. We have done it in Question Period a number of times.

The questions I wanted to ask were really for tabling of information on independent schools. I acknowledge the government has moved to create a kind of FRAME report for the independent schools, and I think that has been a welcome form of reporting. I wonder if the minister could give me a sense, and I do not know whether he will have the numbers with him, of the changes in enrollment in independent schools over the last, say, three years, and what kind of predictions his department is making for the future in independent school enrollments. By that I am looking at the schools which are in the process of applying or, at least, becoming eligible to apply for public funds.

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member, I believe, is right. The debate respecting support to schools has indeed been established. I think that by reference to one set of data, the opposition attempts to make one kind of point, and the government makes its point. I have made it repeatedly based on percentages of total spending, as the honourable member has acknowledged.

I acknowledge that there are issues related to rising costs. I acknowledge that there are costs related to library acquisitions and information technology and transportation. I also acknowledge the difficulties that all of us face in this particular decade in relation to our very important responsibilities.

While we are on the topic, I need just once more to state that while I accept that there are certainly challenges in health care and in education and in other areas of government responsibility at the provincial level, I think all things considered, the report card has to come in certainly for Manitoba in fairly positive terms given some of the realities that we have all been struggling with during the course of this decade. Earlier in the decade we as a nation faced good–portions of the nation, I think that certain parts came through for various reasons better than others, but nationally we have been through probably the second worst financial situation in the history of our country with the recession earlier in this decade. We also have been grappling with issues arising as the federal government has attempted to make reparations of the mistakes of the past. In terms of its deficit and its debt problem, it has done so unfortunately by means that are far too simple and means that do not take account of the priorities of Canadians. I refer of course to cuts in spending under the CHST, the Canada Health And Social Transfer, which removed from provincial coffers hundreds of millions of dollars; on an annual basis, some $263 million.

An Honourable Member: Jim, you do not blame the feds for that, though.

Mr. McCrae: Well, you know, I know that the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) in the House today took no note of that, but his former colleague, one Judy Wasylycia-Leis, the federal New Democratic member of Parliament for Winnipeg North, has very accurately pointed out where the fault lay. She has made it clear on more than one occasion that all of the difficulties that the provinces have been experiencing in health and post-secondary education for sure–but I suggest in other places too–the fault for that lays squarely at the feet of the federal Liberal government in Ottawa.

Now the honourable member for Burrows today said that we should not spend too much time blaming the federal government for these things. Well, it is not a question of blame for me, maybe it is for some, because I recognize the federal government has to get its house in order. I think that it should get its house in order in a way that still recognizes in some way, in some meaningful way I would hope, the priorities Canadians place on health and education.

Now this particular year, the federal government did make an effort to make some measure of recognition of that but not nearly as much recognition in financial terms as it should have, because it only really returned about a third, as I understand it, of the dollars that it took out of the CHST. That is the second major concern that we have had to grapple with over this past decade, the first being recessionary issues which had a devastating effect on revenues right across the country.

I know that earlier in the decade the province of B.C., under the previous B.C. government, we were struggling away with a recession and it was as if there was no recession in B.C. Things were moving along a lot better some years back in B.C. than they are today. As other provinces today are finding their way out of the financial problems that we all experienced, B.C. is now walking into them, and those are for various reasons. Governments, provincial governments and their approach to things do have an impact on these things, and I would not want to let the B.C. government off the hook for this.

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However, there is a third major area of concern that I have had–I touched on it earlier today–and that is that well in excess of $500 million each budget year is spent on things other than the current priorities of Manitobans which are health and education and family services. That is because over $500 million each year is required to be spent to service our provincial debt here in Manitoba. We have managed to balance our budgets for a number of years now, which I think is the right approach because ultimately, contrary to what the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) once said, balanced books actually offer flexibility. The member for Kildonan has said that balanced budgets remove flexibility. Well, he is going to have to square that with more recent approaches taken by the New Democratic Party in Manitoba about balanced budgets, and they are going to have to explain themselves on that point.

I think 9 percent or 10 percent of our total spending is on debt servicing, and I know members, for example, the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. L. Evans), who is very quick or has been at least, maybe he has changed that tune now. He has been very quick to say when it was at 11 percent of total spending that that is a manageable thing to do, to have 11 percent of your budget for debt servicing. This is a very fundamental difference of opinion I have with the member for Brandon East.

I would prefer to be operating with no debt, and that is the goal that we have because I believe that no debt provides for a greater level of flexibility, especially when you have built into your system the Fiscal Stabilization Fund, which was introduced to Manitoba by a previous Minister of Education and a previous Minister of Finance, Clayton Manness. In my opinion, that measure did more for the future of Manitobans and Manitoba students and Manitoba health care receivers than any other single decision that I can mention off the top of my head.

Fiscal stabilization is widely maligned and widely misunderstood on purpose, I suggest, but fiscal stabilization is that so-called rainy day fund whose function is to smooth out the bumps that occur in the economic life of a provincial jurisdiction. The Fiscal Stabilization Fund is there to ensure that budgets can be balanced, to ensure we do not experience tax shock as we have seen in the past before we had the Fiscal Stabilization Fund, to ensure that we do not have to take out our troubles on valuable government programs like health, education, family services, highways and all those important things that Manitobans deserve and need from their provincial government. Fiscal stabilization ensures that we are able to carry on year after year with some assurance that we can do it again the next year and again the next year and again the next year.

When I say widely misunderstood and deliberately so, I say so because we have people who know better shouting out its raining, its raining, spend the Fiscal Stabilization Fund. Well, that is what we do year in and year out. At each budget time, the Minister of Finance announces exactly how the dollars that are in the Fiscal Stabilization Fund are going to be expended for the coming budget year, and that is the subject also of the budget consultations which happen with citizens of Manitoba throughout the province on an annual basis, a very good thing to do. I have been watching for the last two or three years to see how the budget itself measures up to my personal experience as an attendee at these budget consultations.

If there is one thing I have noticed, it is that the government of Manitoba in recent years has been faithful to those consultations. The one that we had in Brandon, the recommendations from the people attending that consultation were very, very much reflected in the budget in that there was a general disposition in the population, in my view, to make an investment, a further investment in health care, which is there in the budget, to continue the emphasis on education, which is there in the budget, to do some moderate tax reductions, which are there in the budget, and to place the priorities as you see them in the budget.

I think that is why, with the exception of a couple of members in the Legislature, everybody supports this year's budget. Certainly I cannot speak for everybody in the House, but we hear talk of elections and everything like that and strategies. Some pundits, Frances Russell for one, suggest the NDP flip-flop on this and the decision to support the 1999 budget was dishonest and tactically stupid. Well, it took a long time for Frances Russell to figure out what I have known for a long time, but, that being said, whether it was tactically stupid or dishonest or what, it reflects Manitobans. At least New Democrats can say: well, for once in 10 years, we are actually reflecting the will of the public. Maybe there is a link with a coming election in this regard.

I mention these three very major things and a sort of a subheading relating to the Fiscal Stabilization Fund on purpose because the honourable member has rightly set out the lines of battle, if you like, when it comes to financial support to schools. I mean, when you take into account those items, the depression, the reductions from Ottawa, and the debt responsibility that we have each and every year, then things begin to take shape.

There is no doubt but that at 19.8 percent of all our spending going to education, the commitment overall is greater today than it was a decade ago. That is a factually correct statement. It drives some people wild hearing it, because there is no better measure of a government's commitment to a particular thing than the percentage of its overall spending.

Now, I remember listening to the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), who has some interesting opinions, but he made the point that Manitobans are not taxed enough. He made the point that it is no great thing to brag about that 19.8 percent of your spending is on education and that that is a serious commitment, because your spending is down. I am very anxious to get into that debate, because the fact that spending is down is a good thing, not a bad thing.

People in Manitoba are sick and tired of the tax-and-spend philosophy so well put forward by the honourable member for Crescentwood. He has got to be called to order by the people of Manitoba for his sincerely held views. I do not question his sincerity. I do question the wrong-headedness of what he is saying and how totally out of step he is with Manitobans when he makes the point that, you know, it is nothing to brag about at 19.8 percent when you are spending so little overall.

Give me a break. Manitobans suggest we are spending too much overall and have been spending too much overall. We have been taking steps to deal with that. One of the most important steps was the Fiscal Stabilization Fund, which is there to smooth out bumps. It has been called every political sleazy thing you can imagine, like slush fund and things like that. [interjection] This is true, but the real point here is that you cannot hammer it and support it at the same time. You cannot push and pull at the same time. You cannot suck and blow at the same time. This is what is going to catch up my colleagues in the New Democratic Party in the coming judgment call on the part of the people of Manitoba. It is. Before they make their decision, they have to weigh in the balance the credibility of the alternate point of view. I look forward to that very much. It is beginning already.

So the honourable member is right about declining purchasing power and all of these things, but when she mentions these things, to give a fair characterization of the lay of the land in education funding in 1999-2000, you need to keep in mind that there is a partnership approach here, always has been. We deal with the Education Support Levy, which is levied by the province, the special levies in the various divisions levied by the divisions. I know that just like they, just like us, the divisions have to meet the challenges of the costs and so on. The government has attempted to be helpful as a major partner in education funding by providing additional monies for information technology. I think it is another $5 million this year.

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We have tried to be sensitive and responsive to the needs of the members of the teaching profession, who do so much for our kids, in adjusting to new curricula. We have added money to professional development, so that that work can go forward. I think we have tried, within the confines of what I have been talking about, to do a good job for the children of this province, and I think that that will be the decision the people of Manitoba will agree with. The fact that we have support from the New Democrats for the budget this year lends credence to what I have been saying, that we are indeed on the right track in Manitoba.

Now, the honourable member asked me to speak about independent schools, and I can give her some information about the enrollments. Beginning in 1987-88 in independent schools, there were 8,244 full-time equivalent student years in independent schools. The next year, '88-89, there were 8,424. In '89-90, there were 8,633.5. In 1990-91, there were 8,885.5. In 1991-92, there were 9,116.5. In 1992-93, there were 9,693. In 1993-94, there were 10,070.5. In 1994-95, there were 10,657. In 1995-96, there were 10,952. In 1996-97, there were 11,468.5. In 1997-98, there were 11,868. Still not finalized but probably pretty close, 1998 and '99, 12,046.5 and estimated for 1999-2000, 12,303.8. Those were the enrollments of full-time equivalent students in our independent schools.

The enrollments have increased each year by some 200 to 400 full-time equivalent students approximately. The total of 12,300 today is about 6 percent of the total school age population in the province. We have not seen, therefore, significant swings from public to independent schools which was predicted when the matter was finalized with the Manitoba Federation of Independent Schools in 1990. Further, for 1999-2000, there are four schools completing their three-year waiting period to become funded independent schools, they being: the Southeast College with 50 children; the Alhijra Islamic School, 18 children; St. Aidan's, seven students; and H.B. Community School with eight students.

After this fiscal year, there is only one more school waiting to be funded in two more years from now. That one is a Hutterian school with a very low enrollment, the Andreas Hofer. I had the privilege of visiting three Hutterite colonies early on in my tenure as Minister of Education and Training, learning about some things I already knew and some things I did not know about Hutterian culture and traditions and religion. I must say I was very, very interested in what I learned and was treated extremely well in those communities and was also pleased with some of the things I saw going on in education for Manitoba Hutterian children and older students, too.

So we are pleased to have been the government which was involved in the signing of the letter of comfort which ended the threat of the remedial order, provided choice to parents and did all that while maintaining a strong, healthy, vibrant and sound public education system. As I have said before, whatever this is worth, I am the product of the public education system, and my children are also the products of the public education system.

I think that they have as good a chance as most to live successful and happy lives, and I think that future generations of young Manitobans will also be fortunate indeed. The reason they are going to be fortunate indeed, and this is very important, I believe not only just in my heart of hearts but from reliable information that Manitobans have over the years demonstrated a very significant commitment to education, including, almost especially including the last 10 or 11 years.

That commitment to education is reflected in the fact that Manitobans are finding their way very successfully in all parts of the world and competing in providing leadership to others in every part of the world. That needs to be said because there is a sense in some quarters that members of our teaching profession have not been appreciated to the extent that they deserve. Well, they will probably never get appreciated to the extent they truly deserve, and I feel profoundly about this. This is something we should remind ourselves about from time to time, perhaps more often than we do, that these people in our society are amongst the most positive people you can imagine anywhere, and that is contagious.

When you cut through all the political rhetoric that goes on in this place and in other quarters, and you cut through all that and get right down to the working, work-a-day teacher who deals with students in the real world each and every day, you get a better sense of what we owe those extremely dedicated people. A number of them are sitting in this room this afternoon. The point is not only myself but other Manitobans need to do that, make it known, and also those who come after us, our kids, need to be reminded how fortunate they have been to have benefited from the leadership of their instructors and teachers.

So I wanted that to appear on the record. I look forward to hopefully many more years as Minister of Education working with members of that profession to learn what their needs are, to learn more about what would help in terms of continuing the tradition of excellence that we have already demonstrated in this country and in this province. We do not take a back seat to very many, and I cannot really think of anyone that we should be taking a back seat to. If there is somebody better than us, then we still have work to do. Apparently, there is somebody, one, in the whole world that is better than us in terms of results and that is the Netherlands, so until we are top of the heap, then we are not finished our work.

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That is why I recognize the value of good constructive criticism and I recognize the value of an ongoing debate about education. It needs to happen almost every day of the year in order that we maintain that sense of priority that excellence demands that we maintain. For that, I thank the honourable member. I know she is not finished yet but just in case she talks for the next half hour, I want to thank her for her role in the examination of these Estimates. I want to thank the members of the Department of Education and Training for their role in helping all of us get through this process. It is not always a neat and tidy exercise. I appreciate that, and I appreciate that people are available at short notice or make themselves available at short notice and that people are there when the call is made, and when they are not, they make sure something else happens that helps us get through the process. I appreciate the role of the Chair of the committee, all those who have occupied the Chair and the other staff who have been involved in this process.

All of it to me is a very, very important thing to do. I sometimes despair that we waste some time and we do, and I despair that we do not always achieve through this as much as we would like to. But, for me, at the end of it all, I can say for whatever period of time we spent examining the Estimates of Expenditure for this department for this fiscal year, we all come out of it just a little more knowledgeable and perhaps a little more sensitive to issues related to education in Manitoba. If that is all we achieved, then we have done something good. Thank you.

Ms. Friesen: My intention is to ask some specific questions. The minister will not have time to answer them, but I think many of them can be answered in other ways. It is not my intention to take a meander around the mulberry bush, as the minister has sometimes done in his answers.

I am not quite sure how to proceed here. There are a number of questions I would like to put on the record, some of which I have given advance notice to the minister of. They deal for the most part with post-secondary education. So I think perhaps the simplest thing, Mr. Chairman, is to pass the lines in K to 12, take the first line on post-secondary education, put the questions on the record and have the minister indicate how he is going to respond to them, not necessarily to respond but how he is going to, whether it is in writing or whether it is further information, and then come back to the Minister's Salary and then complete.

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, just so the record is clear, it is my full intention to do my best to answer each and every question the honourable member raises. If I do not have immediate ready responses, then I undertake in writing to make responses available to the honourable member. If perchance–I am always worried about this–we have missed an undertaking, the member need only remind us and we will get right on it.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Is it the will of the committee then that we proceed and if there are questions, the honourable member would stop me? [agreed]

Then we will proceed with 16.4. Support to Schools (a) Schools Finance (3) Property Assessment. We previously have passed 16.4.(a)(1) and (2). We would now like to proceed to (3). 16.4.(a)(1) and (2) had been previously passed; however, we reverted to our discussions on those in those areas. So I would now like to proceed to 16.4.(a)(3), which is Property Assessment.

Mr. McCrae: If indeed there is a misprint or something in the Supplementary Information, we did find earlier an oversight, and this could be another one. If there is that, I will ask the department to do a review of that and to prepare something for me to get over to the honourable member to explain and set it out how we arrive at that, unless the honourable member wants us to do it now, which we can do. The professional fee part of it is $7,600. If you add that to the $2,267,400, then you get $2,275,000. The number represents 25 percent of the assessment costs.

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Ms. Friesen: Even with the minister's explanations, which I have no reason to doubt, I still think that would not be clear to somebody who is reading this from the outside. The public record would not be clear. What I am looking for is some way of making that public record clear.

May I propose to the minister that something be written and be added to the public record? I do not know how we will do it if we finish Estimates now. Perhaps what we should do is leave Minister's Salary till tomorrow and add it at that point.

Mr. McCrae: I guess there are a number of ways to do this. One could be done by rising in the House and putting something on the record with the undertaking that it would be extremely brief so that it would not take up time in Question Period. I can undertake to do that as early as tomorrow.

Ms. Friesen: That would be acceptable. What it needs to do is to make clear the connection between the line we are passing, which is labelled in the minister's book and that is in the main Estimates book as Property Assessment. That Property Assessment is comprised of the following numbers which are to be found in the Supplementary Estimates on page X and under this X and Y heading.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): With that understanding, can we then proceed and pass 16.4.(a)(3) Property Assessment for $2,267,400? The item is accordingly passed.

16.4.(b) Education Administration Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,336,500.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I have two questions here. One deals with the boundary division work of Mr. Schellenberg. I wonder if the minister, not necessarily now but at some point–I know Mr. Schellenberg has spoken to a number of school divisions–could give us an account of which school divisions he has met with and if there is a progress report or an evaluation and a schedule of work for Mr. Schellenberg. I think it is two-year contract that he has, if the minister could give us some further information on that, basically a progress report.

Secondly, I wanted to ask about quality control inspections of school transportation generally. Is there a report on that within the department? Is there something which would enable us to have a sense of the state of the fleet and of the department's responsibilities within that fleet?

Mr. McCrae: Before the honourable member goes further, Mr. Chairman, the answer is yes, with respect to the work of Mr. Schellenberg. We will make a report available about that.

Next, we would also provide a report respecting quality control inspections related to the transportation part, the school bus system. I am just trying to keep up to your questions.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): 16.4.(b) Education Administration Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,336,500–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $531,800–pass.

16.4.(c) Schools Information System (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $370,000–pass. (2) Other Expenditures–

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, this is an area I have asked a lot of questions on in the past, and I am not going to ask any questions. This year, it has come up in a number of areas of the department and just to say that this is one of the fundamentals of accountability of the department. I understand all ministers have agreed to this. It seems to me very odd–not odd, but it is very difficult to see 10 years of work here that have not yet come to fruition. Some of the numbers that I have been asking the minister for still will not be available for another couple of years.

I notice there is an increase in the money in this department; staff remains the same. They look forward, as I am sure the minister does, to some results and some school information systems that will be helpful to everyone in Manitoba. Pass.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Shall the item pass? The item is accordingly passed, and that item was 16.4.(c)(2) Other Expenditures.

16.4.(d) Schools Grants (1) Operating Grants $585,122,600–pass; (2) General Support Grants $19,447,500–pass.

16.4.(e) Other Grants $2,442,800–pass.

16.4.(f) Teachers' Retirement Allowances Fund $71,555,500. Shall the item pass?

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, just a question of scheduling here. I understand the government has been approached by the Manitoba Teachers' Society on the issue of the governance of the pension fund. I wonder if the minister intended to meet with teachers on this, or is there a schedule for responding to this issue?

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, yes, with respect to this matter, we have met with the Teachers' Retirement Fund people, Mr. Sutherland and the new executive director, Mr. Ulrich, formerly of the Manitoba Teachers' Society, also formerly a board member, and discussed some of the concerns. In addition to that, I met with the Manitoba Teachers' Society. I spoke with the president of the Manitoba Teachers' Society just yesterday. She was in the building yesterday, and I had the opportunity briefly to chat with her to remind her that my door is open to her and to the Manitoba Teachers' Society. We have identified a number of issues. She, Ms. Speelman, was wondering when we might be able to get on with the meetings that are going to be required to address the various matters raised with us by the Manitoba Teachers' Society. It told her, I said: if you get a chance to talk to Ms. Friesen, get me out of these Estimates, and then we can establish some meetings. Well, magic has happened, because it looks like we are heading in that direction. Now that I will not be tied up with Estimates review I can now begin to schedule my meetings with the Manitoba Teachers' Society, which I look forward to. So that is what I said about that.

With respect to the governance of pensions, that is one of the items that I am quite willing to discuss further. There already have been some discussions. We are going to need some more in order to make some progress. I hope that we can do that. I hope that we can find areas of agreement and consensus with the Manitoba Teachers' Society and the other partners in education. That is what I view as my job, to work the best I can with all of these different organizations and to be open and frank, and areas I cannot do anything, to say so, and to also try to be as reasonable as I can and convince my colleagues as well to be as reasonable as we can in our dealings with, in this case, the Manitoba Teachers' Society.

There are a few issues involving the TRAF that are important to teachers. I have been getting some mail about that. I fully intend to address those matters with the Manitoba Teachers' Society and with the board of the TRAF itself.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): 16.4. Support to Schools (f) Teachers' Retirement Allowances Fund $71,555,500–pass.

16.4.(g) Manitoba Education, Research and Learning Information Networks $513,300–pass.

Resolution 16.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $685,149,900 for Education and Training, Support to Schools, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2000.

Then moving on to 16.5. Training and Continuing Education (a) Management Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $520,500.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, we had suggested earlier and I think there is general agreement to ask a number of questions basically on this line and then to move through the lines quickly afterwards.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): If that is agreeable, we shall proceed.

Mr. McCrae: We have made this much progress this far. I am quite agreeable.

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Ms. Friesen: In the area of post-secondary education I had a couple of specific questions, one of which I had raised with the deputy minister of post-secondary education, who is here. The minister, I believe, has received a letter on it as well very recently, probably in the last two or three days, but the individual in question, a medical doctor in residency for plastic surgery has previously met with the executive director of the Council on Post-Secondary Education. So I think the issue has been understood by the department.

I do not know that the department has been able to act in any capacity so far. I am not quite sure how much of this I want to put on the actual formal record. The minister has received the letter. The issue is of a doctor who had taken a three-month placement in California and then had found that she had been in her absence taken off medical lists in Manitoba and hence not able to practise or re-enter the plastic surgery program, of which she, I think, was half way through. So, though that is the general outline, as somebody with a great deal of professional skill who has found herself in a very difficult situation, she has been through a number of procedures, of processes of appeal at the University of Manitoba. I am not clear myself what the minister's responsibility can be in this, but I do believe that The Council on Post-Secondary Education Act did enable the minister to raise questions with arm's-length agencies such as universities and colleges.

What I am asking the minister for at this stage is really a commitment that he will look at the case, look at the letters that have been sent to him and also letters of support and that he will do what he can to ensure that justice has been done and is seen to be done.

Mr. McCrae: As any MLA or any minister would do, I suggest, from any party, someone coming forward with a concern like that, I think it is my job here to use my offices to be as helpful as I can, trying as I do to respect that decision makers in other places are sometimes the ones that are ultimately responsible. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with any MLA making enquiries. That includes the Minister of Education and Training.

I have asked the chair of the Council on Post-Secondary Education to investigate this matter, as it has been brought to my attention, and to report back to me. If that person would like the honourable member to be kept informed, then I would undertake to include the honourable member in that, but I do need the indication from the person–I assume that already–but I need maybe something in writing to say that I should share this information with the honourable member as well.

Ms. Friesen: I appreciate the minister's undertaking on that and, yes, certainly I would like to be kept informed but subject to the authority of the individual. I wanted to ask about Labour Market Support Services and in some ways connected with the Canada-Manitoba Labour Market Development Agreement and the employment and training services of the department. Particularly in the context of the Labour Market Development Agreement, which Manitoba has signed with Canada and which the minister tabled earlier, there is an onus upon Manitoba to develop its Labour Market Support Services. This is a provincial responsibility. It is an area which I think has been underdeveloped in Manitoba. It is a difficult area to work in under the best of circumstances.

I do not think there are perhaps any jurisdictions which do it as well as they would all like to do it, so I acknowledge the difficulties in this. I am interested in the minister putting a few words on the record or possibly tabling something at a later date which indicate the direction the province is going to take in this area. I notice that there is a small increase in Labour Market Support Services, but I was very disappointed that it did not include increases in staff. The increases that are there are for desktop services as I understand it, not for increased staff. It seems to me an area which I would like to see certainly an increase in staffing and an increase in much more precise labour market information, not just for government but for individuals.

As Manitoba has taken over the counselling aspect of Labour Market Support Services, it seems to me that we need much greater detail, much greater regional, and I am not sure of the right area but job specific information than we have at the moment. Does the minister have a plan for that? How is he going to do it with the existing staff? Are there other resources he is going to be involved in? Can he table something in writing at a later date? Does he have some brief comments for that now?

Mr. McCrae: This is something that we have touched on. I know that I have been involved in some other discussions about this with senior people in the department and with the Council on Post-Secondary Education as well because this is related to their function in terms of the strategic aspects of the building of a stronger post-secondary sector. I know that this job market information issue, it is a critical factor, critical to success. It is a better system of job market information. It is clearly needed. We are working to make improvements to that. It is a very difficult area, however, and I know that we have identified this as an area of need, so has the honourable member. The Labour Market Support Services branch develops information on labour market conditions, trends and opportunities for employment and training for the public on an ongoing basis. Users include students and their parents, unemployed persons looking for work, persons who are making career decisions and individuals seeking education and training programs suitable for their needs.

The other issue is dissemination of the information that we are able to gather. We know those are the two, and as we have got more to report on, we will do that for the honourable member, but at this point we feel that there is a need, especially in a changing, working and market environment that better information is made available on a basis that is more responsive to immediate needs. That kind of information base is what we need, and we are certainly very clear on that and know there is work to be done in that area as well as making the information available to others.

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Ms. Friesen: Two specific issues: one deals with Workforce 2000. If the minister could table at a later date the programs that have been funded through Workforce 2000 in the past year and that are proposed to be funded this year. I understand that most of them at this stage, the 1,890 number that is here will not include, I assume, the tax rebates through the Department of Finance, but these will be the expenditures for industry-wide programs for the most part but not entirely.

My second question deals with Red River Community College and the payment of staff. I wonder if the minister is able to table any information upon the payment of nonpermanent staff at the community college, not just Red River but the community colleges generally, staff who are hired on contract. Does the minister have any records of levels of pay, rates of pay? [interjection] All of them. Community colleges generally, and particularly the question came from a constituent and it dealt with Red River Community College, but I was looking for a context as well. So it is the part-time staff, the contract staff, the number of people in that position, and the rates of pay which have been established. Is there a system-wide principle for those payments, or is it developed by each college, and if the minister could give me a sense of the direction of the colleges in the hiring of part-time staff? One of the increasing trends in post-secondary education is to a nonpermanent workforce. This is true at universities as it is at community colleges, and the proportions of that permanent to nonpermanent workforce is something that I think, overall across Canada, there is some general concern about. So I am interested in what the trends are in Manitoba at the college level. I am a bit more familiar with the university level.

Mr. McCrae: With respect to Workforce 2000 information, I think the honourable member has put enough on the record that we can get an appropriate response out to her in the next few days.

With respect to contract staff at our community colleges, we will undertake in this case to contact them to find out if they have this type of information, or if they will make this information available. If they do, then we will pass it on to the honourable member.

Ms. Friesen: I wonder if the Council on Post-Secondary Education is also tracking this trend across the system.

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, I can ask.

Ms. Friesen: I have one question about the Millennium Scholarship Fund. The minister earlier tabled the agreement. The agreement, as I understand it generally across Canada, wants to ensure that provincial funds which are replaced, or which may be replaced by federal funds, are applied to the area of post-secondary educational access. I wonder if the minister is able, perhaps at a later date, to give me some written information on how much money is going to be leveraged, how it is going to be applied, what kind of policy is going to be developed within the department for those–I do not know if leveraged funds is the right word–which have been replaced by federal grants.

Mr. McCrae: Yes, I am glad the honourable member mentioned that. That is a matter of importance to students. Under these agreements with the provinces, the provinces are agreeing not to enrich their coffers through this federal initiative. What I am going to do is make the commitment letter that I have signed on this topic available for the honourable member's review.

I simply want to make the point that, even though I appreciate the Millennium Scholarship Foundation deal that we have agreed to, it is not a substitute for replacing dollars removed from post-secondary education. I want that very clear, and I want the federal government very clearly to understand that. It is not a substitute. I do not accept it as that. The students no doubt are going to benefit from that, but it does not help us with our base costs at our universities and colleges that are a constant challenge for everybody across the country.

Ms. Friesen: On Apprenticeship, there have been a number of changes. Some of them perhaps we will be able to pursue at another time, but I am concerned about, as the minister knows, I have raised this in Question Period, and I just wanted to follow up on that question, the issue of people who have been placed in apprenticeship positions under journeymen. The journeymen themselves though they may be acknowledged as journeymen under strict definitions of The Manitoba Act, they themselves as journeymen have not received apprenticeship training. They have had experience in the job, they have had the six years, but they have not been apprentices themselves.

Can the minister tell me how many people are in that position, and what concerns he has about apprenticeship training under such situations? Again, this can be done in a written response if the minister prefers. We are getting close to time. But that has certainly been a question that has been raised with me, and it seems to me to be one that makes sense and needs some quite clear answers from the department and a sense of direction in which the department is going.

Mr. McCrae: I had a longer answer, but I do not want to take from the honourable member's time. She has put some specific questions on the record, and we will attempt to answer them in writing subsequent to these Estimates.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Item 16.5.(a) Management Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $520,500–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $218,700–pass; (3) Advanced Education and Training Assistance $1,229,400–pass.

16.5.(b) Labour Market Support Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $469,300–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $161,500–pass.

16.5.(c) Adult Literacy and Continuing Education (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $356,400–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $92,100 –pass; (3) Grants $1,174,500–pass.

16.5.(d) Youth Programs (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,317,200–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $404,300–pass; (3) CareerStart $2,480,800–pass; (4) Youth Community Partnerships $4,325,000–pass; (5) Partners for Careers $400,000–pass; (6) Less: Recoverable from Rural and Urban Economic Development Initiatives ($3,900,000)–pass; (7) Less: Recoverable from Northern Affairs ($200,000)–pass.

16.5.(e) Workforce 2000 (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $404,300–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $86,200–pass; (3) Training Support $1,400,000–pass.

16.5.(f) Stevenson Aviation Centre (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $593,400–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $624,900–pass.

16.5.(g) Apprenticeship (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,205,200–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $643,900–pass; (3) Training Support $2,545,500–pass.

16.5.(h) Employment and Training Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $3,567,600–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,861,500–pass; (3) Training Support $4,269,500–pass; (4) Making Welfare Work $3,710,800–pass; (5) Less: Recoverable from Family Services ($600,000)–pass.

16.5.(j) Canada-Manitoba Labour Market Development Agreement (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $5,343,700–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $448,400–pass; (3) Training Support $49,521,000–pass.

Resolution 16.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $85,675,600 for Education and Training, Training and Continuing Education, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2000.

16.6. Support for Post-Secondary Education (a) Council on Post-Secondary Education (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $635,100–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $265,700–pass.

16.6.(b) Universities Grants (1) Operating Grants $220,727,700–pass; (2) Faculty of Management $889,000–pass.

16.6.(c) Community Colleges Grants (1) Operating Grants $57,792,200–pass; (2) Inter-Universities North $822,100–pass; (3) Colleges Growth Plan $4,000,000–pass.

The hour being 6 p.m., is there leave of the committee to proceed?

An Honourable Member: We cannot do that.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): We cannot do that. Then this committee is recessed. Committee rise.