Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 254, will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training.

When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 16.2. School Programs (d) Program Development (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $3,164,200. Shall the item pass?

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): My apologies, first of all, for keeping the committee waiting. It was unintentional.

The minister had some material to table on curriculum and numbers of students in senior level information technology courses.

Mr. Chairperson: Before I acknowledge the minister's response, what is the will of the committee in terms of rising today?

Ms. Friesen: Well, as I am sure the Chairman knows, the government House leader indicated that each committee should determine what time it is rising today. All members of the Legislature have been invited to meet with the British High Commissioner, and I would certainly like to. So I would propose that we rise at 5 p.m.

Mr. Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee that this committee rise at 5 p.m? [agreed]

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): I know that the honourable member for Wolseley was referred to by the government House leader when he put the matter to the House, and the House has agreed that the committees can decide. So, that being the case, I have certainly no problem with the honourable member attending. I am going to have the pleasure of meeting with the High Commissioner myself this week, so I would not want to deprive the honourable member of that opportunity.

Ms. Friesen: Just for clarification, is the minister clear on this committee rising at 5 or 5:30 p.m.?

An Honourable Member: Did you say 5 p.m.?

Ms. Friesen: 5 or 5:30 p.m.

An Honourable Member: It is on your head. You call it.

Ms. Friesen: 5:30 p.m.?

Mr. Chairperson: For 5:30 p.m.? Is it agreed that the committee will rise at 5:30 p.m.? [agreed]

The committee will rise at 5:30 p.m. today.

Mr. McCrae: Yesterday–actually, over a couple of days now, I think–we have talked about curricula-related technology education. I gave out a lot of information verbally. My department has kindly put it into a form that probably looks better than it would coming from me verbally, and I am going to table that.

The student numbers are something the honourable member has been asking about, and we have not yet compiled that, but we will provide those numbers just as soon as that is possible to do. In the meantime, I am tabling this Report on Department-developed Curricula Related to Technology Education. This is dated today's date, and the document says what it says. I will keep one for myself.

In addition, the honourable member was talking to me about the Assiniboine Community College and the southwest consortium. Assiniboine Community College and the southwest consortium have reached agreement on the cost and nature of the technical support that will be provided by ACC to the consortium during the 1999-2000 pilot delivery of the World Issues 40S Web-based course. Technical support will be charged back to the consortium at an hourly rate of $19.60. The nature of the technical support that will be provided is limited to trouble-shooting and correcting OLE-based problems only. OLE is the application software that is used to create the on-line learning environment.

It is also important to note that MERLIN would not be able to provide this service because they do not have OLE, which is owned by ACC.

In addition, we talked about information technology, and this may respond to some things that were asked about surveys. Schools have been surveyed on their information technology infrastructure in each of the following school years: 1986-87, 1987-88, 1991-92, 1994-95, 1996-97. That is available online at http://www.edu.gov.mb.ca/metks4/tech/techplan/survey/index.html. Current status is as follows: MERLIN is currently completing a technology survey of all schools in the province to determine their Internet connectivity as well as to gather other information on their technical infrastructures. The agency has had a difficult time obtaining this information from schools, with only 38 percent responding within the time line of the survey. Action is currently underway to obtain data from those who have not yet completed the survey form, and I am going to table that survey form in a moment.

The future status is that MERLIN will undertake to conduct annual information technology infrastructure surveys with respect to Internet connectivity. MERLIN offers all schools in the province a free Internet account which includes e-mail as well as World Wide Web space. Every school has the ability to connect to the Internet by using this account. Connection and long distance charges are the responsibility of the school. If a school has no computer equipment or modems, these can be obtained at minimal cost from the Computers for Schools and Libraries program. The software necessary to connect to the Internet is available without charge. The definition of connected to the Internet is open for discussion. The federal government uses a criterion that is that schools have the ability to connect to the Internet via a modem to use e-mail services. Using this criterion, all schools in Manitoba have the ability to connect to the Internet.

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In the survey completed in 1997, it was found that approximately two-thirds of schools reported accessing the Internet via a modem. Urban schools were most likely to do so, 72 percent of them. In contrast, northern schools were most likely to access the Internet using a local area network router; that is 52 percent. Preliminary results from the 1998-99 survey indicate that 95 percent of the schools have Internet access. However, as noted previously, the opportunity to connect to the Internet is possible using MERLIN Internet accounts and equipment from Computers for Schools and Libraries.

With respect to the student to computer ratio, in May 1997, there were 22,668 computers in the 615 schools reporting. In contrast, the 1995 survey reported 16,780 computers in 478 Manitoba schools. If it were not for the time that would be required, I would just repeat that because that is a pretty significant activity out there. The preliminary information–

Ms. Friesen: The minister was indicating significant activity. I wondered on what basis, and since I heard him, maybe he does need to repeat it. In '95, there were only 478 schools reporting, and in '97 there were 615 schools, so, in fact, there is no way of comparing the figures.

Mr. McCrae: The honourable member has very sharp, acute hearing skills. It is true, because you cannot always guarantee how many are actually going to report, but the fact is in '97, 615 schools reported. In 1995, 478 reported. I suppose we could go and have a review on the methodology and all the rest of it, but I am putting out some information that I think is significant on the face of it without commenting on the methodology or the accuracy of the survey or the reliability of the people asking the questions or anything else. I just thought it was fairly significant on its face. Now I suppose we could do a review more about this in order to ascertain–it has probably even grown by greater amounts than that revealed in the survey here. In any event, I take the point made by the honourable member, and I can see that she would be correct in the observation that she has made because there is nothing here to say–well, maybe the next paragraph will help, and I will go on with that.

The preliminary information from the 1998-99 survey, 38 percent of schools responding, represents 51.4 of the student population in the province. Well, I can agree, and I spoke to the gentleman from MERLIN earlier today who was expressing a little bit of concern that he cannot force people to respond to surveys, and that may very well highlight the observation made by the honourable member. The preliminary information from the 1998-99 survey with 38 percent of schools responding represents 51.4 percent of the student population in the province. From the information provided, there are 12,215 computers in these schools. This translates to a student-to-computer ratio of eight to one within the reporting schools, and this information can be updated as schools provide additional information. So the honourable member's point is well taken, but I would still like to table the survey that is used to make this report.

In addition, Mr. Chairman, I had the privilege today of being involved in an announcement which bears on a lot of the discussions we have been having. We, through MERLIN, have negotiated a special rate for Corel software licensing, and there is going to be a substantial dollar saving in the education community, at the same time accessing technological assistance through software and whatever other services that are the subject of this agreement.

Manitoba's education community will save approximately 75 percent to 80 percent on their software licensing purchases through a special agreement announced today. The agreement will help to improve access to leading edge software packages that could be used in both the classroom and other settings to give our students an advantage in today's information age.

This Corel Licence Program Academic Agreement was reached between Corel and MERLIN, which is the Manitoba Education Research Learning Information Network. It offers a major discount to schools, post-secondary institutions, libraries and museums on Corel product licences. Licensing is essential in the acquisition of software. This is something that Colette Lepine representing Corel said today. She said that this software will give students an opportunity to learn about the kinds of technology that will help prepare them for success.

The agreement will support the plans of many schools to increase their licences as more computers are added to labs. I had the opportunity. This announcement was made today at the Winnipeg technical college. Mr. Len Harapiak was there. We appreciated the ability to use Winnipeg Technical College's premises for the purpose of making the announcement.

Products being offered under the licensing agreement include business applications and that would be the Corel WordPerfect Suite, and they had the equipment and the software there, complete with students working on them to show us how it would assist them. Also, Corel Graphics Applications called CorelDRAW and Corel Internet/Intranet Applications, Webmaster and Graphics Suite.

It was pointed out that MERLIN provides technology at reduced rates to the educational community through bulk purchasing, networking services, Internet audio and video conferencing. It went on to say that schools and other people in the education community can contact MERLIN to see how they can participate in the offer that is now being made because of this agreement.

Now this is what MERLIN does. This is what they are there for, to assist in bringing technology to our education system. That seems to be what is happening. I cannot put a dollar sign on this, because I do not know what 75 percent to 80 percent will mean on a licence arrangement in a given institution. But if everybody took advantage of this type of discount that is available through the auspices of agreements reached with the MERLIN, then you can imagine either the advances that can be made in technology in our schools or savings realized on deals like this that could make dollars available for other aspects, so I just thought I would add that today.

Ms. Friesen: Could the minister table the contract that he signed or that MERLIN has signed with Corel?

Mr. McCrae: I do not know. We will ascertain if it is tableable, and if it is, we will do that. I have not tabled an agreement like this in the past, so if there are any issues related to proprietary matters or anything like that that I need to have brought to my attention, subject to that I am certainly always willing to table as much as I possibly can.

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Ms. Friesen: I know we have a line coming up with MERLIN on it, and we can certainly refer these questions there. There are certainly lots of advantages in these types of negotiated agreements, and sometimes they are so advantageous that schools will only then buy Corel. In some cases, this may not give the students the diversity of software that they need to work with to be prepared for a variety, so I am interested in two aspects of this. Does the minister believe that there are any exclusive elements in the contract; and secondly, does MERLIN intend or has MERLIN already negotiated contracts with other companies in a similar vein?

Mr. McCrae: I think there is nothing in this that compels anybody who needs something that is not offered through this particular company that compels them not to access that. There is another contract like this that I know about and MERLIN wants to negotiate more of these, so that more access can be had to all of the resources that are around, but it in no way compels anybody to exclusivity.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, the minister referred to another contract that he knew of like this. Did he mean in another department or is he specifically under MERLIN?

Mr. McCrae: There was one other that I know of that was announced last year, and that is with Microsoft. I suppose if the same rules do not apply to that, I can try to obtain that.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, yes, the minister anticipated my question.

I wanted to refer to the material the minister tabled which related to technology and education, and I wanted to isolate out what I have been trying to ask questions on, and that is information technology. The minister has given me a sheet which relates to technology education which obviously is a much broader field. As I look at this list, I can see that there are many areas where computers would be used and where different aspects, beyond computers, of technology would be used. But I am interested specifically in the teaching of information technology.

It seems to me from this list–and what I am looking for is some confirmation or additions from the minister–that what we have that is essentially information technology initiated, developed by the department is Advanced Word Processing 45S, Automated Office 40S, Computer Apps and Technology 20S, and then the two courses in keyboarding, Introductory Keyboarding and Advanced Keyboarding, and then Software Applications. Then there is the Word Processing 30S.

Would there be others which are clearly information technology curricula? For example, this report on department-developed curricula relating to technology education talks about technology may be regarded as a tool, a machine, a process system environment, and yes, all of that is true. But what I was asking about was information technology. So have I picked out the right ones, and can the minister tell me whether each of these curricula in the ones that I have listed is available to me through the departmental library?

Mr. McCrae: After due deliberation, I think the answer here has to be that we need to prepare a response on this that is a fairly detailed one for the honourable member. Some courses are about technology and others are about using technology, and technology is only one resource that is used in the teaching of certain things, for example, accounting principles or something like that. I think, if I am understanding the honourable member's question appropriately, it is going to require some work in order to put together a complete response to the question being asked here.

Having said that, the question is not simple since many, many courses now use technology, in some cases just a little bit and in some cases quite extensively. So I think that I will ask my staff to review the question as it was put and subject to any clarification the honourable member might place on it in order to be responsive to what it is that she is raising with us. I think I should talk about technology as a foundation skill. However, for our purposes today, the use of the word "technology" will be synonymous with that of the term "information technology." Information technology comprises computers, software, course ware, graphing calculators, microcomputer-based labs, CD-ROMs. The department has completed the development of a document entitled Technology as a Foundation Skill Area–A Journey Toward Information Technology Literacy. The document was released in August of last year. The document establishes a contextual framework for information technology. It provides a vision for the use of information technology to enhance teaching and learning. It describes an information technology literate student; it describes the technology enhanced classroom; it discusses issues related to information technology integration and implementation. It provides an information technology literacy continuum, and the document will serve as a guide to curriculum development teams and to classroom teachers. The Technology as a Foundation Skill document is of value to school and divisional administrators when planning for technology implementation.

In Technology as a Foundation Skill, in that document the following projects are cited: Curriculum/Multimedia Integration Project, Interdisciplinary Middle Years Multimedia Project, Senior 1 Math Computer Guided Learning courseware and Senior 2 Applied Math as valid approaches to technology integration in Manitoba schools. These projects demonstrate the implementation of the information technology vision statement appearing in the document.

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Eleven regional orientation sessions for 450 educators and administrators were held in the fall of 1998. The response to the TFS document, TFS being Technology as a Foundation Skill, has been very positive. As of May of 1997, technology has been integrated into Science 20S, Biology 30S, Chemistry 30S, Physics 30S and Applied Math 20S foundation for implementation documents. Further integration of technology is moving into the mathematics and English language arts core curriculum areas. Technology integrated curricula guide Manitoba teachers in how effectively to use information technology so that they can help their students achieve prescribed learning outcomes, differentiate instruction, implement authentic assessment and resource-based learning.

The goals for the integration of technology are to build a model for the integration of information technology with Manitoba curriculum; to base valid curriculum integration of technology on sound field testing by trained pilot teachers; to provide linkages with curriculum that will enable information technology to form a meaningful part of resourced-based learning in Manitoba schools; to provide information technology integrated curriculum, accessible both in print and electronic formats and to identify technology learning resources that are required to meet these goals.

Schools are now able to add to their technology infrastructure as a result of the $5 million that was announced in December of 1998. Schools are consistently reporting that there is a general lack of professional staff expertise to fully implement technology-integrated curricula. I can understand that being said; on the other hand, a lot has been done as well, so there are two sides to that coin. With respect to accomplishments and the future status, science technology integration, the information technology integrated Senior 3 Biology 30S, Senior 3 Chemistry 30S and Senior 3 Physics 30S curriculum documents are available for use by teachers. Information technology integration within K to S4 science will accompany alignment of Manitoba science curriculum with the Pan-Canadian framework.

With respect to interdisciplinary middle years multimedia integration, the Interdisciplinary Middle Years Multimedia Project is developing an instructional model for teaching interdisciplinary units with multimedia support. The multimedia resourced Grade 5 instructional unit, The Prairie Tour, will be completed in March of 1999. I guess that means it was completed in March of 1999. The multimedia resourced Grade 6 unit, Inventions, Innovations and Discoveries, has been piloted by 25 pilot sites and is currently being revised based on feedback from pilot teachers. It will be completed by December of 1999. Work on the Grade 7 pilot of this project has begun and will be completed during the 1999-2000 school year. Future work on this project at the Grade 8 and at Kindergarten to Grade 4 will proceed in 1999-2000

With respect to mathematics Computer Guided Learning, otherwise known as CGL, an expression I know the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Tweed) is very familiar with, this is a Western Canadian Protocol project which includes ITP Nelson as a partner. The department has funded the acquisition of a provincial site licence for the Senior 1, Senior 2 and mathematics CGL courseware for the 1998-99 school year. The department has funded the piloting of the Grade 7 and Grade 8 math CGL courseware during the 1998-99 school year.

Provincial licensing for CGL software for 1999-2000 will proceed for Grades 7 and 8 and Senior 1 and 2. With respect to mathematics technology integration, information technology has been integrated into the Senior 2 Applied Mathematics 20S foundation for implementation document. Information technology is being integrated into Senior 3 Applied Mathematics, 30S, funding support for technology acquisition has been provided through an additional $5.4 million in funding support to schools.

Integration of information technology into K to 4 mathematics curriculum is underway through a new initiative, the Curriculum Information Technology Integration or CITI project. The CITI project will produce a resource for teachers that will guide them in the effective integration of information technology. The resource will be made available to teachers in a variety of formats including the World Wide Web, CD-ROM and print.

For English language arts technology integration, technology integration into English language arts curriculum has begun. Integration of information technology into K to 4 English language arts curriculum is underway through a new initiative, the Curriculum Information Technology Integration or CITI project. The CITI project will produce a resource for teachers that will guide them in the effective integration of information technology. The resource will be made available to teachers in a variety of formats including the World Wide Web, CD-ROM and print.

For social studies, social studies curriculum will require information technology integration that will be co-ordinated with the development of the western Common Curriculum Framework for Social Studies outcomes. The CITI project will produce a resource for teachers that will guide them in the effective integration of information technology. The resource will be made available to teachers in a variety of formats including the World Wide Web, CD-ROM and print.

So, Technology as a Foundation Skill, that document continues to provide the framework under which the integration of information technology into curricula by curriculum development teams occurs. The Technology as a Foundation Skill document will be the guiding document in the integration of information technology into curricula. I just put that on the record so that the honourable member will be aware of that information. We will be providing a list with two categories. Provincially made is designed to teach computers and technologies, and technology is a prime focus as a discipline as it were, for example, computer science, and secondly, locally made from the list tabled yesterday, we will be extracting courses whose titles suggest technology as a discipline, for example, advanced software applications, 41G, or personal applied technology, 11G. Bear in mind, Mr. Chairman, that I did say yesterday we do not review the school-initiated courses for content, so we will therefore make some assumptions from what the title suggests.

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Ms. Friesen: I am not sure I understood correctly the minister in his last statement, that the department does not review the school-initiated projects for content. I understood that there was quite an extensive documentation that had to be provided to the department. What we discussed earlier was whether the minister was at liberty to release them, but surely the minister does review them or someone in his department reviews those school-initiated projects. I wonder, first of all, is that what the minister intended by that statement?

Secondly, I wanted to give the minister some sense of where I was coming from on this, or at least the staff in preparing the list. I was quite curious about the number of school-initiated projects in the computer area. I mean there are obviously a lot of school-initiated projects in any case, but within this area where I had assumed–and the minister has provided the evidence on this–that there were department-developed curricula. I am curious as to why there is so much school-initiated curricula in that area. It is interesting the minister is going to table both of them. Yes, I am looking for some comparison between them as to what gaps are there or what needs school divisions are seeing in what is being provided by the department.

A third element is the issue of testing of information technology. The minister has said and New Directions identified information technology as a foundation skill. I wonder if the minister could tell me how the department tests that foundation skill.

Mr. McCrae: Our reviews of these courses include a review of the course outline. We want certain elements to be included, but I do not think that the department sets out exactly what. We want to know that there is an outcome, but I do not think the department wants to lead the school or the course in exactly what the outcome should be. We want to know that there is one. We want to know what kind of learning resources are involved in it and if there are assessment strategies. I do not know how detailed we want to be about what they should be.

We would like to get a statement of the aim of the course, the rationale, the philosophy, the statement of general student learning outcomes; for each general student learning outcome some kind of statement of the specific student learning outcomes that are required by the course, not by the department, but by the course; some kind of outline or list of course content expressed as topics or themes with allotted time in hours for each topic or theme; a statement of instructional approaches and strategies designed to achieve the general and specific student learning outcomes; the major learning resources and bibliographic information; and a statement of assessment and evaluation approaches and strategies designed to measure student achievement relative to the outcomes.

What I am trying, though, to underline, even with all of that, we, other than wanting through New Directions to ensure the reading and writing and numeracy skills of our students, there needs to be, we need to let teachers do what they do best with some important direction on the important themes, but I still think that I do not want to micromanage what the teachers do. I think that there is a fair bit of suggestion about that.

We need some general things to happen. As a society, there is overwhelming support for that statement that we want to establish some standards in our system, but they are standards relating to some pretty basic core things that we should achieve and then allow school divisions, schools, and teachers to do their jobs in the way that they are well equipped to do.

We do not intend to test respecting foundation skills in this as an area of technology. We do not intend to do that. We test Grades 3, 6, 9, and 12 in a few subjects, a few very important subjects, to determine the learning of numeracy and literacy and communication and thinking and problem solving. We do not test as a matter of provincial standards testing for human relationships like teamwork and respect for others, entrepreneurial spirit, self esteem, those sorts of things. Those are very important things, but I think we would be going a little far if we tested in all areas that I seem to be hearing suggested here. We do not test oral skills. We do not test technology skills. I am sure those things are happening at the local level and need to be happening there. Those are best done locally and it bears repeating: we believe there is a partnership in effect here respecting assessment, province and local, including the local classroom teacher. I am glad the honourable member raised this point, because partnerships are that. There is a role to be played by all of the partners. You have to find the balance that suggests that everybody in the partnership is a true partner–not only suggests it, but makes it a fact and a reality. I would just like to add that–[interjection] Oh, with respect to another one. I am going to finish on the last one now.

I feel very strongly about this. You just cannot run everything out of this building, and you should not. Even if you could, you should not do that because that is–I mean, I used the expression Big Brother in Question Period today to make the point. I try not to be quite as rhetorical when I am talking in the committee, but it does not matter. It means the same thing. The fact is, either we are for tests or we are against tests. It seems like most people are for them, but that minority that are against them put out the wrong justification for the position they take. I am just going to touch on a few of those things.

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They are out there saying that weeks are spent preparing for tests and that the six or seven days of testing are disruptive. This is the argument that we get from this coalition against testing. I noticed that nobody from the New Democratic Party asked me any questions today about that, and I wondered why. This is supposed to be test-free Tuesday according to the New Democrats and some of their friends, I assume. [interjection] Well, they make friends. Of course, everybody makes friends.

The length of standards tests activities is designed to be appropriate for the student grade level. The Grade 3 math test, for example, is separated into two parts. Each one is written in one 45-minute session scheduled over two consecutive days. The Grade 3 English language arts standards test is separated into four parts written over four consecutive days. There are people who are out there trying to make others believe–in fact, one woman said to me: do you not think 290 minutes is a long time to make a Grade 3 child sit there without even going to the bathroom? Now, you know, if that is the tactics people are going to use to make their case against establishing standards and having tests against those standards, I welcome them to continue along that line because there is absolutely no credibility here in that sort of approach. If you have a case to make, make it, but do not come forward with a bunch of myths to try to cast doubt about a system that was built by very committed Manitobans, many of whom are teaching professionals.

The Grade 3 one, as I told you, is separated into four parts written over four consecutive days. A significant portion of each of these sessions includes teacher-led student practice sessions. For example, teachers introduce themes, read passages aloud to students and provide students with correct answers before they undertake the test activity on their own.

Another myth. Children in split grades lose their teacher for significant periods of time. Again, that is not true. The Grade 3 math test represents two 40-minute sessions, and the English language arts is two 40-minute and two 65-minute sessions. For example, there are only 13 questions on the English language arts tests.

Here is another myth. Results are predictable by income. Well, here are the facts. There is a positive correlation between income in any measure of student achievement, including teacher-made tests. However, social status is not destiny. In fact, education is the greatest social equalizer that exists. There are many studies of school effectiveness that show teachers in schools do make a difference, and the deficits due to social class can be compensated for by good teaching on the part of the school. Well, my granddad got a Grade 2 education. It did not mean that he did not live a healthy life and that he did not work hard, and did not live a long time and have a happy life. On the other hand, that was then; this is now. You cannot really get very far with Grade 2. But two generations later that person's grandchildren have found themselves at very good levels of social and economic success, thanks to a quality education system.

Another myth. No additional money or staff has been given to help schools that have performed poorly on the tests. Manitoba government, in recognition of the importance of education, provided an increase of 2.6 percent to schools for 1999-2000, a $19.7-million increase over last year's levels. This represents the third year of consecutive increases to education. Funding for education has increased over $149 million since 1987, and education represents close to 20 percent of overall provincial expenditures, the main funding priority of government next to health care. An additional $900,000 is being provided in support of professional development, and an additional $2 million is being provided for students with emotional behavioural difficulties, as well as $5 million for classroom costs.

The Manitoba government introduced the standards testing program in order to provide parents and students with reliable information about student performance and achievement. The government expects schools to share results and other information with the parents of individual students. Student results provide schools and parents with valuable information to support the progress and achievement of students. Distorted information is being presented to parents related to standards tests, and parents deserve the facts.

That is a very troubling issue, when I am told by those who have been rehearsed, I guess, to deal with these questions, that no information is shared, so why are you doing all this testing and what is the benefit of it all? Well, information, where we have found it has not been shared, we have done something about it. We discourage anybody just receiving results and then not sharing them with the teacher or the students or the families. Why would you go through all that and then not follow through with what would assist the child in his or her education?

Another myth. The only information available through test results is a number. Not true. Following every standards test, schools receive a detailed breakdown of each student's performance. For example, in addition to providing schools with the overall student results on the Grade 3 mathematics standards test, schools receive a portrait of student achievement showing how students performed on each part of the test and their results by question type.

Teachers are provided with guides to standards tests to help them interpret results appropriately, and they should be discussing these results with parents. I am sure the majority of teaching professionals in Manitoba are doing that, but not even all teaching professionals are aware of what is available to them in terms of information. That is an area that I have asked my deputy minister to deal with, and he has been doing that. I also asked him to show me what the test looks like. He showed me that; I tabled that. I also asked him to show me what test results look like and how they can be interpreted, and he did that. I will tell you, there is an awful lot of information that a parent and a teacher can use as a result of any of these standards tests to assist the student in their education experience.

Here is another myth. The tests have no diagnostic value and occur too late in the school year. Well, excuse me, that is not true either. Testing at Grade 3 does not even make up a part of the student's grade but supports opportunities for prevention and early intervention. Test results help classroom teachers identify student strengths and weaknesses. Do people think that kids are finishing school at Grade 3 and just because the results are coming out in June that those results are no good to anybody? Give me a break. The children are returning to school in Grade 4, and they have Grade 5 and Grade 6 when they go through another assessment time.

So I just think that it is not fair to kids to make them go through six years of school before they get this type of assessment and all of the weaknesses that they might have are not properly identified until Grade 6. That does not add up. For anybody who wants to argue that early diagnosis and intervention are the right things to do because when people are young that is the right time to do it, then they turn around and say but we do not like the Grade 3 exam, I am having a little trouble. They do not like it based on these myths that I have been telling you about which are being floated by somebody out there who has–I do not know what they have in mind other than maybe mischief, because this is not correct information.

Of course, it has diagnostic value, and because it occurs at the end of Grade 3 does not make any difference because there is Grade 4, Grade 5 and Grade 6 to prepare for. That is why work does need to be done in this area of making sure people are aware of what the results of that Grade 3 test are. Of course, I would be upset as a parent if I thought that my child had to go through a test, a province-run-and-financed test only so there would be nothing come of it. I mean, come on, let us make a little sense with some of our arguments because some of these sure do not make any sense at all.

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Another myth. Studies show that testing of young children is neither reliable nor valid. Well, again, is the government of Manitoba the only one that ever suggested a test for a child at that age? I think that teachers probably get into the habit of administering tests at a very early time. I cannot remember directly how many I had in Grades 1 or 2 or 3, but I am sure that tests occur other than simply tests mandated by the provincial authorities. So the myth is that studies show that testing of young children is neither valid nor reliable. Now, I would like to find out more about that research because the research that I know of, in fact, shows that testing, particularly at the early grades, provides a meaningful opportunity for intervention.

Now, if Grade 3 was as far as anybody ever went in school, you might have an argument on this part of it. But you have a lot of grades to go through after Grade 3. So I would like to see that research that suggests that testing is not reliable or valid and show it to every teacher in Manitoba who probably administers tests of his or her own and tell them that their tests are not valid that they have been doing all these years.

Testing allows strengths and problem areas to be identified and allows for real progress to be made to improve student learning. That is what this is all about, and I do not understand the New Democrats being against testing like this.

The other myth is that classroom teachers are encouraged to teach to the test. This has become a favourite group of buzzwords brought in by the New Democrats, that teachers are teaching to the test. Well, excuse me again, the tests are all about the curriculum, the curriculum which is what is required, the curriculum which is developed by teachers, Manitoba teachers in Manitoba, and Manitoba teachers are telling me it is an excellent curriculum, so why would you not test to that curriculum? They are saying they are teaching to the test. Well, teach the curriculum and the test will be fine. That is my understanding of how this works.

So classroom teachers are being provided with strengthened curriculum which supports student learning, good curriculum and good curriculum support documents, research documents. I have been shown all kinds of material the teachers have to look at. They have shown me this material in the context that they would have liked more time to be able to deal with all that curriculum and all that material. That is understandable, and we need to work with them on that and be reasonable with them and not ask them to do the impossible. But teachers should be teaching to the curriculum, teaching to the test, teaching to the curriculum. What is the difference? If you are teaching to the curriculum, then the tests which are aligned with the curriculum will not be the problem that some of these myth makers are suggesting.

Here is another big myth: testing costs $15 million annually. That is not true. The testing program represents a mere 1 percent of the overall Education budget, currently about half that amount, so it might approach $15 million when it is fully implemented, but it has not come anywhere near that yet because it is not fully implemented. The Manitoba government believes this money is well spent as part of both the responsibility and an obligation to parents, schools, teachers, students and taxpayers to provide accurate, fair and reliable information about student progress. Without standards or testing there would be no reliable or consistent means of measuring student knowledge to ensure students are learning at the levels required by today's society. There is a lot of science, a lot of work, a lot of skill, a lot of knowledge and commitment and people involved in putting this whole New Directions business together, and by saying this is a waste of money is a real slap in the face to literally hundreds and thousands of dedicated professionals in this province who have put so much in on behalf of today's children. To have that said about them, well, you know, somebody should think about the teachers and the others that are involved in this once in a while and be a little more fair in their comments, especially when they are going around making up stories.

Without standards or testing, students could be passed through the system with problems or difficulties that could go undetected and unresolved and cost many more millions of dollars later on, and this is the point I was making. Not only that it costs a lot of money, it is just unkind to send a kid through six years before you make a determined effort to find out if the child has been learning anything that has been part of the curriculum. This deals with the Grade 3 issue, and I can understand people who do not want to put children, be unkind to kids and that sort of thing, but I maintain that it is very unkind to let them go through 12 grades of school and whatever else they go through and find themselves unprepared to face real life at a time when their parents would not mind if they got out of the house and started living independently, and they are simply not able to because we forgot to remember to have standards in our education system and to make sure that we are meeting those standards. That is very unkind and certainly not forward looking at all.

Without standards or testing, students could be passed through the systems, as I said, with problems and difficulties undetected, and you know what that can cost later on in unemployment insurance and welfare, despondency, mental illness and all the things that can go with a bad education experience. So what is wrong with making education a positive experience by showing young children that being tested is part of life. We are all tested in one way or another in our life experiences, and so now I am told that this is really hard on kids.

Well, sometimes I think kids are taught that it is hard. Well, why do that? If you want a child to learn are you going to start by saying, now this is really going to be nasty, boys and girls? Is that really the way to go about it? I do not think so. There is a better way to do it and thousands of children are experiencing that better way to do it. Approximately 13,000–I am going by last year's number–are writing that Grade 3 exam this year. I know one experience in one of our schools in Manitoba where somebody got 16 parents all riled up about the Grade 3 exam, and they were all going to refuse to have their kids write the exam. A very responsible school division leader in that division, I can name him, I think, and he deserves a little bit of credit for the good work that he did, Rick Plaisier from the Fort la Bosse School Division made it his business to make sure the parents involved knew what the benefits of this program is all about. So it was 16; by the time Rick Plaisier was finished, of the 16, Mr. Chairperson, 13 wrote the test this morning, two of them were excused for legitimate reasons, one at the end of the day refused to do it.

I would say that is a shame for that one because that child will not have the benefit that the other 13 are going to have, but it is a question of knowing the facts and, you know, when you want to do damage, I guess one of the best ways to do damage is to go about your business with not putting accurate facts before the public. But what is encouraging to me is that Manitobans are not to be fooled by people who have other interests at heart other than those of the children, the overwhelming astounding majority of Manitobans are totally 100 percent behind a good quality education for their kids. They know that children are able to handle testing scenarios that are designed by Manitoba teachers with the best interests of children at heart. It is incumbent upon government to make sure that students are provided with the proper tools for success as early as possible so they have the opportunity to achieve their full potential in life. Every step we take to deprive kids of that quality education that we are talking about is in a sense either taking money out of their pockets or depriving them of opportunities for happiness later on in their lives. I think we do quite a disservice when we engage in campaigns to get rid of standards testing, especially when you do it with a whole bunch of bogus information.

The Manitoba government's vision for education is very clear. Manitoba students in an environment of care and support and safety and rigour are going to be among the best educated in this country or perhaps anywhere in the world. A strong public education system strives to ensure that effective learning takes place in schools and that all students have the opportunity to achieve success.

In further reference to the points raised by the honourable member, the member asked if there are so many school-initiated courses dealing with technology, she asks whether there are gaps in what the province is providing schools. Well, no, the vast majority of the SICs read into the record yesterday are SICs developed locally for instruction within the senior year's technology education program. School divisions want programming within the senior year's technical education program to be based on local needs, current employment trends and opportunities, and they want this to occur with the high degree of flexibility that they require.

They want to be able to be responsive with the local curricula, particularly as it relates to technology, the very nature of which is dynamic and ever changing, frequently very quickly. They want this local curricula to be responsive to local opportunities for their students, so you cannot be dogmatic about these things. That is the one thing that should be very clear, especially for educators and people interested in education. Dogmatism and philosophy are simply things of the past.

We have to provide a relevant education for our children, so you need a balance of something that suggests good levels of standards, but within that scenario, the kind of flexibility that allows for local issues to be properly aired in our schools properly prepared for. We are just trying to find that balance all the time, and I guess the debate always surrounds philosophy. For example, the whole issue of the questions raised by the honourable member about the Athena proposal. Well, you know, there are some who are just going to say, this is not for us. We will get our kids to learn about the news of the world, the news in some other way because we do not want to be captive of any particular contract, arrangement. We do not want them to see Athena's news, and we do not want them to see their commercials.

I think the honourable member is probably, at this point at least, more conversant with the details of what is coming out in these contracts. She has asked me to look into some things that she has heard about, and I am going to be doing that. But is she suggesting to me that school superintendents and school business officials and teachers and parents are not able to wrestle with these issues as well and come up with the answers? I did make that commitment earlier today in Question Period to look at the details of the contractual arrangements as they were raised with me without looking at the contracts themselves, as the specific questions raised by the honourable member in Question Period today is something that I undertook to look into and to review, so I will do that.

Ms. Friesen: Well, I can sense the minister's keen disappointment in my not having asked particular questions in Question Period today, but the minister has taken his allotted 30 minutes in response to a question about the testing of foundation skills. He has given, I think, a very coherent case based on a particular philosophy, although he wanted to suggest that philosophies were out the window, but it is a particular philosophy. What he has put together, I think, is the coherent case for the government's position, has a number of internal inconsistencies I would argue. I am sure we will have the opportunity to argue that at certain points over the next year. It is based upon some myths and some quite large assumptions on the part of the minister, but it certainly is, as a collection of statements, a very interesting one, and one that I am sure Manitoba parents will want to examine and to think about.

I am interested in the minister wanting to talk to parents about this, because previous ministers have not been interested in talking to parents about this. There has been a very strong tendency in this department to send civil servants to talk to parents, rather than the minister or other members of the Legislature to make the political argument. It is one I have raised a number of times with different ministers; it is not new. So I look forward, I mean, the minister has his arguments in line, I think, and I hope that he will be talking to parents about this.

There was one parent forum which did deal with tests, and it was one where the department chose to essentially lecture for I think most of the morning, all of the morning, in fact, trying to explain–I will put the best cast on it that I can–to parents what the department's and government's purpose was in testing. It was difficult, at that point, for parents to get their own views across. They had to make special requests to have forums, at that meeting, where there own views could be expressed.

So if the minister is interested in debating this, he clearly is, I hope that he will do it at the political level, that he will do it himself, and that he will not be sending civil servants to bear this message over and over again. For example–well, we will not go into examples. In fact, there are quite a few and I think were there on the record before. I think the long-term impact of this is to politicize the civil service in a way which I do not think is right, and I hope the minister is essentially breaking new ground here.

It is clear that the minister cannot be everywhere at once. I accept that, but there are many MLAs on the government side who could take this message, a political message based upon a particular philosophy. There is a coherent statement of it now, and that could be taken to discuss with parents, and I encourage the minister to do that.

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, I listened carefully to the honourable member, and I think she is talking about something I am not familiar with. It may be that in the early days of education renewal, there were–when you are making pretty significant changes, which the ones we have been working on could well be characterized as, there is a big job of public communication called for, and I am sure that just having the human resources around to cover it–the minister alone cannot do it without a lot of help.

If you are talking about members like the honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck), for example, who has done and is doing an excellent job not only as a member of the Legislature but as a legislative assistant in the Department of Education and Training, who, when it is not possible for myself to physically be present because of scheduling issues, I cannot remember a time when I have asked him to help out and he has said no. That is the kind of person he is. He is committed to the education of our children, and maybe that is reflected in his career as a public person and in his career as a teaching professional, and I appreciate that. But with all the nice things I can say about the honourable member for Pembina, he is not the only one out there who is willing to be involved in a reasoned discussion and sharing of the facts.

I hope the honourable member did not mean to be taking pot shots at officials in the Department of Education and Training who do not approach things, as far as I am aware, from any kind of philosophical or ideological approach. We have a job to do. The department was given direction by the government of Manitoba that we have to have some level of consistent standards in our education system, and we need, to go along with that, some relevant curricula for which standards should be set in the whole system of education renewal. I think that while people might very well have their own personal likes and dislikes, the department reflects the leadership provided by the government of the day, whichever government happens to be in power.

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In this case, it was a very progressive government that sees a bright future if we make the right arrangements for it. I am not saying that the officials of the Department of Education and Training did anything more than what they were directed to do, and that is to attend, if this is what the honourable member is referring to, meetings to inform the public of what is going on. That may have happened simply because that needed to happen.

The honourable member knows very well–being the popular person that she is, she gets lots of invitations to things and simply cannot be everywhere. Sometimes she will ask someone else to attend on her behalf, and I have done the same thing. I have asked my deputy minister to cover for me on occasion, and if he could not do it, he might find someone else to cover for a particular function. I mean, if somebody invites the minister, it is too bad if the minister cannot make it, but if the minister asks someone else to go, I think that there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, the Deputy Minister of Education–I should not dwell on him so much because there are lots of people in the department, but these are important jobs, these are important functions that they carry out, and I know that there is nothing wrong with parents meeting with deputy ministers of Education or ministers or opposition members or teachers or principals or anybody else.

I understand that the Deputy Minister of Education has been involved extensively in forums and in discussing many things. I mean, this gentleman has a background in education which has for a number of years now been respected by the people of this province. He may, from time to time, have an opinion, everybody does, but I think that consistently he and his senior staff and everybody else that I know of in the Department of Education have reflected what has been set out by the government of the day. That is what it is all about.

The deputy minister also meets with the parent council association and the trustees association. In fact, today I asked that my deputy minister find out more what is going on in the city of Winnipeg, Winnipeg No. 1. I read the papers where there has to be a misunderstanding here. The chairman of the board of the Winnipeg School Division is saying that testing is a parental choice. That is news to me. Being otherwise tied up with other commitments, I have asked my deputy minister to review that matter. Same as the issue in another division where the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) was raising the other day, issues related to some alleged irregularities in one of our school divisions respecting the security issues around the whole issue of the testing. I have asked my deputy minister to inquire as to the latest status of that matter raised by the honourable member for Inkster because the member wants to know.

We have been trying to keep up on our undertakings with the honourable member for Wolseley. The member for Inkster wants to know where we are at with that. I needed sort of an update on that myself, just so that I can share that information with the honourable member for Inkster.

Somebody is alleged to have done something wrong in respect to an important part of the school system, a person who has a responsible position in the administration of province-wide testing scenario. I mean, everybody in the system needs to know that everybody else is following the rules of this. The honourable member for Inkster raised this matter. Well, it was the Deputy Minister of Education who was asked initially to look into the matter. That is an appropriate function.

Ministers have to be realistic enough to know that no matter who or where, people can make mistakes, do things wrong. I think ministers' jobs are to ensure that there is always a process in place to ensure that nobody can be the subject of a witch hunt or unfair treatment or anything like that. I think those are appropriate roles for ministers to play. When it comes to explaining the policies, once the policies are very clear, it is not a political function to go out and to tell a parent council, for example, perhaps invited, perhaps sent in the place of a minister or a politician to be there to answer questions about the operation of a particular policy. That is not new.

I remember being in Reston, Manitoba, in 1985, I guess it was–no, 1987–the previous New Democratic government had wanted to shut down the Reston RCMP detachment, so there was going to be a meeting about that. The people in Reston were not happy with that proposal. How would you like to be living in Reston where your nearest detachment would be the detachment in Virden? I cannot remember exactly how many miles, but, having driven it enough times, I should. It is a long distance away.

In any event, Roland Penner was the Attorney General of the day. He and the Mounties had cooked up this plan they were going to shut down the Reston detachment. Obviously, the people of Reston were not going to put up with that without some discussion first of all. So they organized a meeting. About 600 people from the Reston area attended a meeting at the Reston Collegiate. That was the only hall big enough to accommodate such a meeting. Do you think Roland Penner went to that meeting?

An Honourable Member: No.

Mr. McCrae: No, he did not. He sent Tanner Elton, the Deputy Attorney General. Tanner Elton arrived at Reston for the meeting. He was late for the meeting. Do you know what he said to these 600 angry Restonites? He said: I am sorry I arrived late. I did not realize how long it took to get from the airport at Virden to the Reston Collegiate. Well, the meeting might as well have been over right there and then.

In any event, I talk about this story to respond directly to the point made by the honourable member about public servants attending and helping to explain policy or answering questions. There is not a thing wrong with that. I think I detected in the honourable member's question there was some criticism of that. I simply think it is a little bit too easy to make that kind of criticism of people who are simply doing their best for the children of this province, whether they are paid as politicians or paid as officials. If somebody steps out of line in that situation, that is different.

A lot of us knew Tanner Elton. He turned out to be my deputy of Justice for some time as well. A very interesting person who played an interesting role in the Justice department. By the way, the Reston detachment was reopened shortly after the election of 1988. That was quite a story. I remember the honourable member for Arthur-Virden being there that night. He only had one question, and that was: how much is it going to cost to reopen that Reston detachment after the next election? That was really all that needed to happen, and the meeting ended shortly thereafter.

Face-to-face discussion, you know, every time something positive happens, some of the honourable member's colleagues and occasionally even she herself tend to find something negative about that. If it is about an expenditure of money in the Health department, for example, to inform the public about what is going on in the health system, this is somehow a bad thing. We cannot have the spin of the official opposition attached to it, so therefore it must be bad.

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In the case we are talking about here, where I think the member is talking about perhaps the deputy minister, perhaps somebody else in the department meeting face-to-face with parents, that somehow that is wrong, because in my view there is an assumption there that, oh, maybe they are going to tell them the truth, an unvarnished sort of version, an unspun kind of version of what is going on, and even anything that does not have the spin that is preferred by, like, the honourable member, is going to be wrong. I do not really accept that. I think people are smart enough to listen to the honourable member's point of view and to listen to my point of view and make an informed decision. I think that is possible for people to do in the '90s in Manitoba.

I think that there is good work done by people in the department but also people throughout the education system, because nobody is suggesting that it is easy to renew an education system. No one is suggesting there was anything wrong with what had been done previously. This is a great error that is made by people, that somehow someone was being blamed for a system that was not measuring up, and therefore this is a way to get at somebody. That is a terrible distortion of the facts here.

I have made the point before that we have had an excellent education system with an awful lot of committed people involved in the education system, people who should enjoy the gratitude of the general population of this province, because we have succeeded so well as a partner in Confederation and as a player in the world economy. We have done very well, and we should be very grateful not only for our natural advantages but also for the wonderful human efforts that have been made to prepare Manitobans for competition in a global world.

That being said, those should be the very same people who would agree that making sure that we are going to be as relevant 10 years from now and 20 years from now as we have been for the last few years, those people should embrace the changes, too, and, in fact, in large measure they do. As I referred a little while ago to the myths surrounding standards testing, there are myths surrounding lots of aspects of the New Directions in education. I am sorry to say that not everybody has the highest and best interests of the children at heart. I really regret saying that, but not everybody does. Some people have their own vested interests placed higher on the level of priority than those of the children of today and of the future. For that, I am quite regretful. It tends sometimes to prolong the debate, the fact that people have interests other than the interests of the children, and it slows us down in our efforts to build.

If we could just be more positive; just think what we could have achieved if we did not have to fight all the time over every positive development that comes along. I am not saying that there is not room for some dissent and debate because there is, and we do not always get everything right, and I recognize that. But if we got all the things wrong that we have been accused of getting wrong, my goodness, what a horrible place this would be if that were true. I know that Manitobans are not buying a lot of the things that are being attempted to be sold out there.

I, myself, have tried to be involved in a responsible way, and I tried to demonstrate very quickly on my appointment that I, too, do meet the parents and I continue to do this, teachers and trustees and superintendents. I am prepared and I always have been to go to public meetings to speak up, to answer questions, to explain and to discuss, and even when the going gets tough, the honourable member knows that I have been there. I have taken as good as anybody could dish out in this province in the last decade, and I am still here to do that because sometimes–I do not just love punishment; I am telling you that–there is something to be gained by standing up for what you believe in and being prepared to admit when you are off on the wrong tangent but also being prepared to stand up for when you know you are right. You just know you are right when there is so much public input into some of the decisions that have been made and some of the directions that have resulted from those decisions, when you know you have significant public input.

Before the New Democrats came out and supported the budget, they said that it was all wrong, that it was not sustainable. Well, we knew it was sustainable. Do you know why? Because we went to hundreds of people in Manitoba to talk about the budget. I attended the one in Brandon and there was a good discussion there, a good building of consensus on the various issues, issues like health, like education, highways, debt reduction, taxes. On all of those issues, there was a good consensus built.

So if you look at the process, then I think that you can get a hint about the quality of the product, and I say that because even with a good consensus-building process, you do not nail down all the minutiae, all the details. I think that New Directions has not been altered very much, at least, but I think adjustments have been made along the way to account for various matters that might have arisen that may have little to do with the basic objective but lots to do with the implementation and the ability to get the job done. In my work, I used to like to say that we specialize in the difficult, the impossible just takes a little longer. I hope that is seen as a positive kind of statement. I think what we are trying to do is certainly not impossible, but it is certainly a significant move in a good direction towards the achievement of a very high quality education system.

How can I be confident when I say something like that? It is because it has so much professional input, so much input from people who are committed and who care so much about the kids and about their future. They care; therefore they give good advice. They do not do it out of self interest. They do not do it because they have some special interest who they are carrying the can for. They are doing it because they have one interest and one interest only, and that is a happy future for the kids of today and the children of the future.

So, you know, you want to take me on on these issues, good, I am prepared for that. I say that to the honourable member and I say that to other groups that seem somehow always to get aligned with members of her party. If you want to protect your special interests, go for it, but we are going to show you up every time, because it is going to be pretty clear pretty soon after the debate begins who really is looking out for the future of our kids and our kids' kids. The people who we have consulted along the way, the educators and the professionals and the parents, they really have not put their own interests on the table and then said: okay, do everything you need to do, but do not mess with my interests.

They have cleared the table right off and put the future of the kids on the table and made a decision that this is how we are going to go about the development of New Directions and the implementation of it. Along the way, yes, I think it is clear that you are going to find implementation and administration issues that need some adjustment along the way, but I am happy to say after five years of implementation of New Directions that we still have a good product here. We can polish it up here and there, but it is still, as a basic product, an excellent one and one that I can happily defend.

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That is why I was bemoaning the fact that the honourable member did not ask me very many questions about the so-called test-free Tuesday today because, as it turns out, thousands and thousands of children went to school today and did what education renewal is all about. They participated and they are going to be better off for it because we are going to know more about those kids as a result of that. We are going to be able to address curriculum issues, teaching issues, professional development issues, and issues directly related to the kids that have to do with the profile of each and every individual child.

There is all kinds of information that will flow from that that can be used by the Grade 4 teacher, can be used by the parent, can be used by the principal or whoever needs to, can be used by the department, as it builds its data base on where we are going with these different curricula and how we are doing in terms of measuring up, what we can do to assist teachers to get that curriculum through to the kids, what areas of special needs there are that are not being met well enough and what we have learned from all of this.

The honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) knows very well the value of good quality data. This is a way to get that. That is probably why she did not ask me any questions about that today, because of the way it was all developed. Sure, there are things about it that can be improved and should be, have been and can be and will be. That is all going to happen, I have no doubt about that.

So I was disappointed that that question did not come up. Maybe some of the people that the honourable member sometimes represents around here are disappointed that she did not ask about that too. The only way you can kick it is to come up with all these myths that some of the special interests have come up with. Myths do not cut it with the Manitobans of the 1990s. They demand and they get the truth. Then they make their judgment. Then they send their kid off to school for the test. That is what happens by the thousands.

The original blueprint, it was never said then, and it should not have been either, that everything would be implemented exactly as it was originally announced and that there would not be programmatic adjustments made. Nobody said that would not happen, and that should happen. To the extent that you just stubbornly go forward because it was written and so it was written and so shall it be done, that is really an arrogant way to do things, and that is not the way it has been done. We have demonstrated our plan. It is rooted in sound education and research, and it was reflective of what Manitoba needed and was capable of. We are capable of making adjustments and refinements and, yet, we are still going to have a system that is sound and strong and clearly very good for our kids.

I just say I regret today of all days, test-free Tuesday, not to get a question about the standards tests. It was perhaps revealing. Maybe it told us the same thing that we are being told about our budget, and that is that the New Democrats secretly support what is going on here. I know their constituents are phoning them and telling them, back off on some of your comments. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer), for example, at the MAST debate with the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and with Dr. Gerrard made the commitment on the fly. I do not know if this is official party policy previously arrived at, I am not sure, but it may well have just been sort of a seat-of-the-pants proclamation on the part of the Leader of the Opposition: we are going to get rid of the Grade 3 test. Well, there is absolutely no science behind what he said. He had no justification for saying that because, you know, he said that because his special interest friends working on the myths that I have been referring to today have demanded that of the Leader of the Opposition.

We know that the Leader of the Opposition and his friends are the captives of the union leadership of this province. We discussed yesterday the union leadership in the person of Mr. Ian MacIntyre, former president of the Manitoba Teachers' Society, did not step down to run for the NDP in River East. He is running for the NDP in River East, but he did not step down. He was defeated at an election. I met earlier today with the new president of the Manitoba Teachers' Society very briefly. I was pleased to do that. I have been warned the issues do not get easier just because they have got a new president. That has been made very clear.

The new president, Jan Speelman, wants us to get on with some of the items that we discussed at my initial meeting with the Teachers' Society. I made the point, well, if you can get the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) to wind up these Estimates, we will get scheduling meetings right away. I do not mean that as a hint, enjoying these Estimates as I do, but I did say that I would be very happy. I just cannot commit my time at this time because I do not know when I am going to be in Estimates review or when I might be available. I did say to President Speelman that I look forward to addressing the issues with the Manitoba Teachers' Society in terms of dates for meetings, which is something Mr. MacIntyre referred to when he introduced me at the convention last week. He made a passing reference to getting some dates for some meetings, and that is going to happen. But I think I will be more reliable for meetings, keeping my dates, if we get these Estimates passed.

I know they are going to pass because the NDP support our budget, so it is a matter of going through the process. I just close on that point that it would have been good if the issue, the matter of the standards testing, had come up and I did not have to raise it myself. On the other hand, I am happy to raise it at any time because I think we have a lot to celebrate in the fact that we have done a lot of good, and we are going to do a lot of good. Thank you.

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The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Referring to 16.2. School Programs (d) Program Development (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $3,164,200–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $3,679,600–pass.

16.2.(e) Program Implementation (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $5,082,400.

Ms. Friesen: I wanted to ask a couple of detailed questions about the proposed activities of this section during the year. One of them is the implementation of a strategy for the acquisition of courses for distance delivery. It is on page 59 of the Estimates book that I have. I wondered if the minister could tell us what that means, where these courses are being acquired from and what is meant by "implement a strategy for the acquisition of." Does this mean, for example, the payment of licence fees, the adoption of copyright and the distribution throughout an entire system? I am not quite sure what the extent is meant here.

Mr. McCrae: The honourable member asks a big question again. The acquisition of courses for distance education delivery is not confined just to one item, but I will give her one by way of example, if I could. Then she might ask other questions.

We negotiated with the Province of Saskatchewan, for example, to acquire the rights to a course called Agriculture 20. There is no cost to us in that particular arrangement. We will likely trade a course with them. Likely, we will offer them one in language, and we will work that way. I say that by way of example. I know there is a lot more to be said about this.

Ms. Friesen: Could the minister tell me what other jurisdictions are being negotiated with over this or have been negotiated with? Perhaps he could give me a brief history of how long this particular program has been in effect. Perhaps he could also give me some idea of the anticipated results. Is this ongoing, by request, or is there a finite end in view? Is there a sense of a number of distance education courses to be acquired by the department and/or to be developed by the department that will then provide a common basis for some area of the curriculum?

Mr. McCrae: We do not have a number in mind. To the extent that we can, we want to develop our own courses. This is an evolving area of endeavour, and we want to develop, I guess, to the extent that we can, our own. We have no number in mind, but a good deal is still a good deal.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, could the minister tell me how many courses have been acquired?

Mr. McCrae: One, Mr. Chairman, the one I referred to. Then we also did adaptations. We customized it ourselves.

Ms. Friesen: How long has this aspect of the department been in place? I do not actually have last year's Estimates with me. I should have looked at it, but this implementation of a strategy for the acquisition of courses for distance delivery sounds like a longer-term project. You are actually developing a strategy. You are not acquiring them one by one, although that may, of course, end up being the strategy. So could the minister just give me the history of this aspect of departmental programs?

Mr. McCrae: The history, Mr. Chairman, is not all that long. Within the last year, we have seen a greater demand, and a technological component seems to attach to that demand. Our prime focus, I am advised, is our own local development, whether that be provincial or local. That does not mean that we would not look at what exists elsewhere each time that we have a requirement just to see what is the best that we can provide.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, can the minister tell me whether there is any strategy at the Council of Ministers level on distance delivery in high schools, and if there is, is Manitoba a part of that overall strategy?

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, Manitoba certainly is part of discussions related to a strategy in this area. I think it is safe to say certainly in the time of this government, Manitoba has always been part of Pan-Canadian discussions. We never remove ourselves. The previous government I think was the same way. There is probably a history of Manitoba like that. We simply do not absent ourselves from important discussions. In fact, we often volunteer within the resources that we can to be a part of positive change, positive progress and development.

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The Council of Ministers of Education of Canada does not have a set strategy in this regard. There are discussions about it. It does not mean there is not a will, I do not think. I simply think that the council itself has not sufficiently researched or got us prepared to enter into anything more of a strategy than we already have. There is no Pan-Canadian strategy on technology, for example, but there have been lots of general discussions to this point.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, what I was interested in was whether the Council of Ministers of Education, which I think certainly got a growing staff, has been looking at the issue not so much of information technology or the actual delivery of these programs but the sharing of the courses themselves, the actual course content. Obviously the technological ability to deliver them locally is part of the context of that. Is it on the formal agenda of the Council of Ministers of Education for the next few years?

Mr. McCrae: I heard in the question the member making reference to the growing staff at the CMEC. I am going to check into that a little bit. I just returned from a meeting of CMEC ministers in Quebec City. I went there with the intention of following up what western Premiers had achieved a couple of weeks ago at Drumheller. I, as the member would understand, have only a short history of a relationship with the CMEC, come from the CCME, which is the Canadian Council of Ministers of Environment, now from CCME to CMEC, of which the chair is B.C. We met in Quebec City to talk about some ongoing issues, but Manitoba, led by the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of this province, in Drumheller a couple of weeks ago, was able to get on the western Premiers' agenda as a priority item the issue of post-secondary education and the funding under the CHST. The CMEC is involved in this now.

Following on the priority given by funding for post-secondary education by the western Premiers in Drumheller, I had an opportunity to go and lead, as it were, follow on the leadership of the Premier of this province by getting this matter put into a national or Pan-Canadian–which is the new word you use instead of national–context, the issue of post-secondary education. There is hope, because now the First Ministers are going to be meeting in August, and the point I am trying to make is that CMEC has now become a resource on this project. Even though we did not have every minister there to form a sufficient quorum to give direction, it is pretty clear that that is exactly where CMEC is going to go.

So this growing staff the honourable member referred to may be put to work in terms of if it is growing, which I am not exactly ready to confirm. We need the resources of the CMEC, and the fact that the CMEC is a product of all of the jurisdictions we can get something going here. The premiers of western Canada have agreed they want more–everybody agrees we always want more money–but the point here is that we have to keep the pressure on. We were able this year as a group of Canadian provinces and territories to impress the federal government enough that we needed some more money for health care to restore some of the hundreds of millions they took out of health care through the CHST.

This is something we have all had to deal with on a daily basis and the results of it, and we deal with it in education too. The members raise questions with us about this and that and try to place all the blame for all the troubles on the provincial government. However, I am not as much on the finger pointing as some people, but on the other hand I cannot escape the reality that $263 million is not there in our coffers as a result of the changes to the CHST. So without being any more abusive to the federal government than I absolutely have to be, the fact is there is $263 million not on the table. I know they have debts and deficits and things like that, and following our example here in Manitoba they are trying to do something about that. I respect that, too. So it is in that framework that I make my comments. We can quibble sometimes, and do, about the way they place the priorities.

What we were trying to do was to get some attention paid by Ottawa to post-secondary education, and here is where CMEC is going to help us. They are going to help us make the point. Dick Dawson made the point as well–Dick Dawson of our Council on Post-Secondary Education–that if you look after the education of a nation, you are also looking after their health which is something I knew but I never got my tongue around it in the same way that Mr. Dawson was able to do.

Education is one of the indicators of the health of a nation. We know that we, overall, have a pretty good level, compared with other countries of the world, of education in our population. We know that there are some pretty important pockets where that is absolutely not true. So we have challenges. We need to, within the ability of the federal government, address this. We know that some of the things that have been happening, the free trade and things like that, are really kicking in and making a big difference in our country and creating employment all over the place and jobs galore and revenues for governments.

I remember the debate about free trade, and I do not know if anybody has changed their position on that one yet. I sure have not, because I know where I stood then and where I stand now, and if it was not for free trade I would not be living in such a province, such a good province. We would have a lot more challenges than we would if there had not been changes in our trading relationships which have allowed us to diversify so much. There are other things besides just free trade, but that is very important. Free trade is producing greater revenues and those revenues need to be used in the best way possible for future development of our country. Investments are needed, and there is no better investment than a good education system. So that is the case, and CMEC is going to help us with that.

Just on the issue of the staff at CMEC, it may be true that new or different staff have been added. Overall, their staff complement has not grown. In fact, a current difficulty for all of us as members of CMEC is to manage our budget, our CMEC budget, to keep it in line with affordability. That means the ministers must give direction on priorities in order to husband our resources without needing to raise members' fees and without having to go cap in hand to Ottawa by way of a matter of interest. Mr. Chairperson, 93 percent of the CMEC budget resources stem from Ottawa; 7 percent is a provincial contribution. Manitoba's contribution is a little over $61,000. That might sound like a lot of money and it is, but all that aside, CMEC, while useful, does of necessity operate by consensus including on the Pan-Canadian agenda of CMEC.

That agenda takes on two forms: first is the core, and this would be an item that all member provinces support, and hence would be centrally funded via the CMEC budget, an example, Student Achievement Indicators Program, the SAIP; but a second agenda is set by fewer than all the provinces but more than seven. That seems to coincide with our constitutional arrangements. This agenda is acknowledged as a CMEC agenda item but is funded by members of the consortia, for example, of that citizenship curriculum project.

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In any event, on the issue of distance education, again, I can only say to the honourable member that, yes, it is on the formal agenda, but it has not got as specific as the honourable member and I would probably like to see happen. Simply, you have to sort of watch, you sort of have to allow issues to percolate, I guess. Some of them, their time does not come and nothing happens and they keep talking. It is not like the discussions are a waste of time or money because sometimes you get some wonderful results from international I was going to say, but, no, a Pan-Canadian discussion of all of the parties. Even the province of Quebec, which quite often finds itself outside the consensus whatever the matter happens to be, at certain times can be a good ally, too.

So where does distance education fit then? At this point it is a discussion item, just like sustainable development is a discussion item. A lot of discussion seems to happen at the officials level. You get to a ministers' meeting and it is on the agenda and not very much happens in the space of a day when there are several other pressing matters. That does not mean the item gets dropped. It does not mean a whole lot of things happen either, but you do not want to lose sight of some important items. No doubt distance education is going to be one of those types of items that will escalate in importance and the treatment given to it by the CMEC–and I think this will be good. This will bring us results ultimately implementing a strategy to acquire courses from other jurisdictions and to customize these for Manitoba. That is related to our desire to be able to respond as quickly as possible to the needs and requests of our clients for a range of courses as well as collaborating with school divisions in Manitoba.

We want to collaborate with the Western Canadian Protocol where we are working collectively on a number of projects including the development of a five-year plan for developing and sharing distance courses based on the Western Canadian Protocol Common Curriculum Framework.

Negotiations, as I said, are currently underway with other western jurisdictions to explore joint development projects within the context of the Western Canadian Protocol memorandum of understanding for distance learning and technology. So I think there is a lot of work still to be done in this area in order to develop our education system to provide choices for people and also to provide efficient choices that allow for quality education and that the maximum of accessibility for people, I am no stranger to the reality of the differences in geography.

I am not that old that I do not remember wooden sidewalks and muddy streets and living in rural places where access to some of the things–it was 1957 before electricity was introduced to my granddad's house. That was a testament to the frugal ways of grandma who never would have electric lights as long as she was alive, and that did not happen. I remember going to grandpa's place. I like reading at night, but it got really, really hard to read before any light was produced at that household other than coal oil variety. It had to get really late because they could only run them for a short time because it cost money for this coal oil.

Similarly, if your physical requirements were such that they had to be pretty urgent requirements before you would make use of the facilities at granddad's place because up until grandma was gone, those facilities were a hundred feet away from the heated part of the house. So these were things that show that there is a time for things and there will be a time, I am sure, for further progress at the CMEC level in the area of distance education. I guess I raise those tales from Westlock, Alberta, which was the homestead of my granddad. He was a charter citizen of that province having migrated from the west of Quebec in 1905 to put down his $10 and take his quarter section of land and clear it by hand and raise a family of nine on it.

We have come from that in my experience to where we are today where we have got the Bill Gates and the distance education and all of the wonderful things that we are now doing in our schools. I hope somebody is writing a book about the development of the last 50 years in this country because it may be the most interesting part of Canada's history. I hope they can write fast because things are happening almost every day that require comment for anyone who wants a good understanding of what is going on.

Ms. Friesen: The minister mentioned the citizenship curriculum project of the CMEC. I wonder if he could give us a brief history of that and Manitoba's participation in that.

Mr. McCrae: I have been fortunate, as few Canadians have, to be a member of a provincial government, and I really mean that quite sincerely. I feel extremely honoured. I have been involved in lots of federal, provincial, territorial meetings and endeavours, and I know that my predecessor also has had pretty significant experience as well. Manitoba pushed, along with Alberta, very hard to get the citizenship history curriculum business on the agenda of the CMEC.

Now, what needs to be pointed out–and I know that the Minister of Environment (Mrs. McIntosh) will bear this out for me; anybody who has ever been involved in this federal-provincial-territorial meetings will know how it works–that they have an agenda, which is important enough, but the most important things that happen at those meetings happen at lunch when the politicians alone gather for lunch and talk about the issues. This is no slight whatsoever to deputy ministers who attend these things and their staffs and that sort of thing. The fact is, it is in those in-camera meetings where I know from reports that the honourable Minister of Environment played a key role in making sure this citizenship history curriculum issue became part of the CMEC agenda. Future Canadians will probably want to be thanking the honourable member for Assiniboia for playing that role in the 1990s.

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The way this is working out, though, and it is not unsurprising or unpredictable; it is one of these consortium matters rather than one of those unanimous ones. Everybody is involved in this work now, led by Alberta and supported strenuously by Manitoba. The province of Quebec on this one has not joined in the effort. It was one of those cases where Quebec tends to want not to be part of the thing, and I think that is sometimes unfortunate, but I will leave that part.

I should add that Quebec is not the only one that opted out of that. B.C. did, too. B.C. is having a few problems, and we know that. I was happy at the most recent meeting where Mr. Paul Ramsey was–Paul Ramsey is the chair of the CMEC, the Minister of Education from B.C. I knew Paul from previous experience. We were both Health ministers at the same time, so we were able to share our misery then and kind of reminisce about our misery now because I think–well, maybe he is still having misery, but I am not. I was able to share with him and the others some of the things that are happening here in Manitoba about which I am quite proud. I do not know what reasons B.C. is not involved so much, except I understand that they have got up to their whatever-you-call-it in curriculum controversy in B.C. and having one heck of a time, but that being said–[interjection] I forgot about that. I was not going to mention that part. Some of us are politicians by virtue of an interesting journey, shall we say.

In any event, Manitoba, as I say, has pushed very hard, and I cannot take the credit for that. That has to go to my predecessor, and I am happy to share that point. The intent of this citizenship education project is to develop a framework of learning expectations for citizenship education that will reflect the spirit of what it means to be a Canadian.

Well, no wonder it is so hard to get everybody into the consortium. I have been into those discussions enough to know that what it means to be a Canadian takes on a whole other flavour, depending where you happen to be or come from, or what your background is. So I can understand that. But it is still the right thing to address and to work on. I do not think we talk about our Canadianness enough. I do not think we celebrate who we are enough. I do not think we are noisy and brash about it as much as we should be, about being a Canadian. Other countries are, and we should be, too. After all, we have so much more to be proud of here in this country that if we do not make a little bit of noise about ourselves we cannot always count on our neighbours and friends in other countries to do that.

I think that reflects the spirit around the group that I have the honour of working with in the government of Manitoba. We feel pretty proud of this province and of this country. That has been reflected in a lot of things that we have been doing, with or without the support of all of our colleagues in the Legislature. We have still been consistently pressing forward proudly and with great expectations for a successful future, but the intent is to develop that framework of learning expectations for citizenship education that will reflect the spirit of what it means to be a Canadian and that will provide direction and guidance for its integration into all subject areas, grades, and school activities in each of the jurisdictions.

The citizenship framework will concentrate on the concept of citizenship education and not attempt to recreate a full social studies curriculum framework. Alberta acted in this as well as Manitoba. New Brunswick took on the role of the Francophone lead, if you like. I guess in all of these discussions you need somebody to chair the meetings. That is what that is about.

Manitoba certainly would not be taking any back seats in respect to any discussion on citizenship, Manitoba being really the microcosm of Canada in so many ways. We really reflect what Canada is, in our opinion, and nobody seems to want to disagree with us. We do indeed reflect the Canadian persona, if that is the right language to be using. We are proud of that. We have strong feelings about our own history here in Manitoba. We do not even agree on it half the time, which is an interesting comment all by itself, but that is a healthy thing too as long as we do not get too animated about it.

The same goes for having just visited in la belle province and Quebec City. You do not have to be too smart to notice that there are things about the province of Quebec that you do not find anywhere else. I am trying to be careful about how I word everything here. That is the same thing about Manitoba. You will find things here that you will not find anywhere else. There is something unique about each and every province.

I remember the debate on the Constitution and I remember making the point so clearly to those who were upset about some kind of special favour or some kind of special arrangements for one jurisdiction or the other. The fact is, virtually every jurisdiction is here under some special arrangement and part of this partnership of Canada. I mean, how many people know that Prince Edward Island gets four senators? I mean, we get six here in Manitoba, and they get four. The Senate is there to reflect regional concerns and to deal with them. I would like to see a much stronger Senate. That is another issue. In any event, New Brunswick has special arrangements respecting the number of people they get in the House and in the Senate. Newfoundland, they have certain arrangements that had to be unique in 1949 when they joined Confederation. Quebec has its arrangements.

Manitoba, well, we have things here in Manitoba that are very unique in our Constitution relating to schools and relating to our courts and things like that. B.C. got a railroad. I mean, everybody got something as part of the deal. I cannot remember all the different things for the other ones I did not mention.

The fact is Canada and Canadians are a generous lot. Sometimes we do not realize it and forget about that when we are developing constitutions. In any event, this project is going to be a hard one for the CMEC and its members, because I will bet you everybody working on an officials group or on a committee, they are going to have to go running back to their government or their ministers every time there is a decision point simply because of the nature of our country and the history of our constitutional and citizenship discussions. I can see that happening.

And a definition of citizenship? How about an agreement on where you are going to have a meeting. I can see this being a difficult thing, because even where you have your meetings could become very reflective of something else. People could read the wrong things into simple things like that. But the topic of the citizenship project is on the agenda of the assistant deputy minister's meeting called by the CMEC. That is happening tomorrow. We are going to see what comes out of that. Mr. Guy Roy and Mr. Gerald Farthing are going to be the assistant deputy ministers attending that meeting, but I will be surprised if they do not come back and say, you know, we could not get firm agreement on that, but everybody is close to an agreement, but we want to make sure it is okay with you.

That will be happening in 10 or 12 or 13 places across the country. This is not an easy one. I do not want to give the honourable member the idea that the CMEC project is going to have a final agreed-upon report next week or after a meeting in Toronto.

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I know the honourable member knows a little bit about the history of this country, enough to know that what I have said, a lot of the things I have said are true about the nature of our arrangements, which is not a weakness but a strength, a strength that allows all these provinces and territories to live together in peace and harmony and do business together and build. I mean, look at how far this country has come in such a short time, 132 years or something like that now. That is not very long in the bigger scheme of things, as the honourable member knows, and what we have done, we have become one of the G-8 nations of the world after such a short period of time and with such a small population, comparatively speaking. We are nothing short of a wonder, a total wonderment as a nation.

We are that because we have strong regions. This is a really touchy issue, but this is still true. We have some very strong regions; we have some very strong provinces. Even the provinces that might not be described as strong are part of a strong region, so therefore there is lots to be hopeful about. Even the ones that do not have the economic advantages that some of the others have, they have hope of economic advantage because of resource discoveries in recent years, and now with the information economy being the new kind of economy, look at the kinds of things that are happening in areas you did not expect before. We have a lot to crow about in this country, and I think we should be doing more of that instead of–you know, I listened to one of the members today in the House saying that we are the street gang capital of Canada.

What a great way to advertise your city at a time when we have all of these thousands and thousands of people converging on Winnipeg later this summer, just a month or two away, to celebrate all the wonders of sport and games and living together and all of these things, and to be putting that out as an advertisement, I mean, I am really not impressed. And I am not even a Winnipegger. I live here a lot of the time, and I have lived in the city of Winnipeg; I have been a Winnipegger, but I am angry at people who speak that way.

If we have problems, is it not something we should work on instead of bragging about having them for our own political gain. I mean, I think the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) should have a word with the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) for talking like that. This is his city; this is her city, too. If this were my city on a full-time basis, I would be even angrier. I am angry enough as it is about it because it is my second city, Brandon being my first. I like Winnipeg and there are a lot of things to be said about Winnipeg, but calling it names like that sure does not help our image. It just burns me so much when I hear stuff like that about any city that I am close with, any province, any area, any group of people, or my country.

I do not mean to cover up and hide from real problems we have. Of course, we need to look at that, but resorting to three-second clip buzzwords like that–I do not even like repeating it–is pretty disgusting frankly, and I hope the honourable member for Wolseley will gently speak to her colleague and use the skills–the member for Wolseley has some good skills, and she should use those skills in a constructive way. She does not have to give me or the government any credit for anything; I do not care about that. But why go and take such a kick out of the capital city, a beautiful city, like that, especially at a time when we have all these visitors coming? It came out so fast I could hardly believe my ears that he actually used that language, but I sure hope that he maybe would apologize for that at the very next opportunity.

Anyway, we can take heart. The development of the Pan-Canadian Science Framework started out with the same kind of start; that is, a firm resolve to achieve something valuable, a good process on how to achieve it, but a less bright picture of what actually would be the final product. In the end the product was good. It was useful and it was credible.

So hope springs eternal in the human breast, is what my mom used to tell me. I am hopeful for all of these things that we are talking about. Some of them are further along than other ones, some of them disappointingly not as far along as we would like them to be, but you can only do those things that are actually possible. But, as I said, sometimes impossible just takes a little longer because we specialize in the difficult on a regular basis.

Ms. Friesen: Could the minister tell me whether there is any time frame for the citizenship curriculum project, and could he give me a sense of what the context is in the Manitoba curriculum for the framework of learning expectations of what it means to be a Canadian? What are the citizenship expectations in the Manitoba curriculum, or how are they defined across the curriculum?

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, I wish it were that simple. I do know from my experience in dealing with constitutional issues–this would be related to a constitutional issue in terms of building agreement around a Pan-Canadian curriculum–I think we have seen this deadline business tried before. When it came to Meech Lake, a deadline did not seem to work very much. In terms of finding agreement on things using deadlines, you do not always get much quality. If you were to tell two warring factions tomorrow, like a union and an employer, that you have until tomorrow at noon to have an agreement, it just does not work out very well. That is why you need to use reasonable people.

The best I can say on it is, I think, that anybody who suggests putting deadlines on these things–I do not think that is what the member is doing–but anybody who does that is not very wise in the ways of working with 10 provinces and three territories. That does not work that way. I mean, you can try, and you can agree for best efforts, and all of those sorts of things, but nobody can lay one down in the first place unless it is agreed upon. I do not think you would be very successful trying to lay down a deadline.

My view of the history of this country, the history of this province, the history of my own city of Brandon may very well be different from somebody else's view. You might be able to find two very reputable research documents to back up each of those two stories, and yet–so what do you do? You keep working and hoping that day will arrive when sweet reason and light fills the room and you start making progress again. There always seem to be those kinds of points in a big project, points along the way that kind of open the door for other progress to be made.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Order, please. As it was previously agreed upon, the hour being 5:30, committee rise.