Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, would you be so kind as
to call Bill 35.
Bill 35--The Mental Health and Consequential Amendments Act
Madam Speaker: To resume adjourned debate on second reading, on the proposed motion of
the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik), Bill 35, The Mental Health and Consequential
Amendments Act (Loi sur la santé mentale et modifications corrélatives), standing in the name of
the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), who has 10 minutes remaining.
An Honourable Member: No.
Madam Speaker: No? Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is
second reading of Bill 35, The Mental Health and Consequential Amendments Act. Is it the will
of the House to adopt the motion?
Some Honourable Members: Agreed.
Madam Speaker: Agreed? Agreed and so ordered.
Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I would like to announce
that the bill just passed, Bill 35, would be among the bills referred to the Law Amendments
committee, Friday morning at 9:30. I just look to my honourable friend from Burrows for
confirmation that that is our understanding, and that being the case, Bill 35 would be on the list
for consideration with the other bills at Law Amendments, Friday morning, 9:30.
* * *
Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Natural Resources
(Mr. Cummings), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair for the House to go into Committee
of Supply to consider the resolution respecting the Capital Supply bill.
Motion presented.
Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): It was my understanding we were doing concurrence.
[interjection] That is the same thing. Thank you.
Motion agreed to.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
Capital Supply
Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): The Committee of Supply will come to order, please.
We have before us, for our consideration, a resolution respecting Capital Supply. The resolution
reads as follows:
RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $124,766,000 for
Capital Supply for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1999. Shall the resolution pass?
Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Just on a point of order, it says no debate if the 240-hour
time limit has expired. Has the 240-hour limit expired?
Some Honourable Members: Yes.
Mr. L. Evans: So there is no debate.
Mr. Chairperson: For the member for Brandon East's information, the 240 hours has expired,
so this is not a debatable motion.
* * *
Mr. Chairperson: Shall the resolution pass?
Some Honourable Members: Agreed.
Mr. Chairperson: The resolution is accordingly passed.
Concurrence Motion
Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Chairman, I move that the Committee
of Supply concur in all Supply resolutions relating to the Estimates of Expenditure for the fiscal
year ending March 31, 1999, which have been adopted at this session by the three sections of the
Committee of Supply sitting separately and by the full committee.
Motion presented.
Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Chairman, I have some questions for the Minister of Health
(Mr. Praznik). The Minister of Health I think is well aware of how my community has expressed
its concern about the closure of the Misericordia Hospital and about the concerns amongst senior
citizens in particular, and those who are without telephones and those who are without cars, at the
loss of a hospital in their midst, a hospital of which they have come to depend upon and to which
they feel very close.
The minister is aware that I have spoken on a number of occasions about the way in which
this closure was accomplished. In the minister's own riding, I know that the health authority is
doing health assessments. He has been doing health assessments of the community for over a
year. Local meetings have been held in Grand Marais and elsewhere.
That was not accorded to my community, but resources were taken away before any
health assessment was done, a health assessment which could have looked at the economic
conditions of people in the area, of the way in which people had related to the hospital, of the
patterns of usage of that hospital, of the percentage of surgeries which are done in that hospital,
and the way in which those relate to the community and to the community's accessibility to
hospital services.
That was not done. It is being done elsewhere in Manitoba. It was not done in my
community, but before even any health authority could be put in place, before the health authority
even had--and I will give them the benefit of the doubt--the intention to conduct any of these
assessments, the resources were taken away from the hospital, and it was essentially to be turned
into a long-term care facility. That is one of my serious concerns. I think it is a deliberate choice
on the part of the government. I have called it asset stripping, and I think that is what they have
done in the health facilities of my community.
I want to draw to the minister's attention, in particular, two letters. I have chosen two.
They are not the only ones I have received. I am sure they are not the only ones the minister has
received, but they are representative of the way in which people think and speak of this hospital
and of the services they have received there.
One letter from a gentleman on Furby Street speaks of the emergency room that he went
to with an ulcer and an infected gall bladder that came up very suddenly. He was kept in for a
week and recovered and thankfully is back at home. He says: What would happen, how many
deaths will occur because the people who walk into the new urgent care facility will lack
equipment, people and beds? With this hospital gone there is no hospital in the downtown area to
serve those with low income, and less access to cars and funds for taxis. He believes that the
minister is deserting those most in need of care. They will probably wait longer for care because
of the extra expense, and this will make healing them even more expensive. It will also make it
more difficult for family and friends to visit and to keep their morale up for the same financial
reasons. This is not good health care, he says.
* (1440)
Another family of senior citizens on Fawcett Avenue writes to me and said: As do many
neighbourhood senior citizens--and, Mr. Chairman, I can certainly add my confirmation of that--we depend on the close proximity of the Misericordia General Hospital. We have had two
emergencies requiring immediate attention. Recently, due to dental surgery a day earlier, an
artery had bust unexpectedly in my mouth, my constituent writes. I would have bled to death, he
said, had I not received emergency surgery at the Misericordia General Hospital. They go on to
speak of the conditions that they had found at Health Sciences Centre.
I know that the minister has received this letter or at least it was certainly also sent to him.
I want to ask the minister if he can first of all tell us and tell these people who have depended
upon the Misericordia what is meant by the urgent care centre that he is to establish there? How
will that serve the needs of people, representatives of whom I have spoken here?
I would like to ask the minister to tell me, too: what kind of surveys, what kind of
research did he do? What kind of examination did he do of the health care needs of the inner city
that led him to believe that the best answer to those needs was the closure of an inner city
hospital?
Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Mr. Chair, first of all, I appreciate where the
member for Wolseley is coming from. As the MLA for this constituency she obviously has a duty
and responsibility to ask the questions behind the decision that was made. I say very clearly. It
was a decision made by government together with the Winnipeg Hospital Authority for the larger
planning scheme for Winnipeg hospitals in delivery of the service, and I accept that responsibility.
I appreciate her role and her responsibility to ask these questions on the part of her
community and her constituents who are very close geographically to that particular facility. But
if one accepts the principle that everything that is has to remain without change and that the fact
that a hospital has been there for some 100 years means it has to or is required to be there forever,
or that particular level of service in living so close to the hospital is the standard that all are
entitled to, this province would not be able in any way to guarantee that same standard even to
everybody in the inner city.
Mr. Chair, there are very few places in this province or even in the city of Winnipeg that
have that kind of close proximity to the hospital. People in those areas become ill. People in
those areas are poor and do not have cars and have to have health care needs. They go to other
facilities, and, you know what, they survive, they are treated, and they are treated well. So I
appreciate the benefit to having a hospital right next or almost next to one's door, but that is
certainly not the norm for most Manitobans and most Winnipeggers.
The rationale behind the change that we undertook is a very simple one. We have, in
Winnipeg, seven acute care facilities. The needs in acute care have certainly changed. They have
changed for one reason, a very significant one, because of medical technology, the advent of laser
surgery. A whole host of other new diagnostic and treatment tools mean that people do not
require as long of stays in acute care facilities and that the need in our system, what has put
pressure on our system, by and large, has been a shortage of long-term care beds--and we can
debate decisions on freeze and rationale, and I accept it, that is fair debate--but the need has been
for long-term care beds, and that within our system--and this is not Darren Praznik speaking,
these are the people who manage our system. They say to me, the physicians delivering programs
and the administrators say to me, that we did not require that capacity of beds if we are using our
beds correctly and we have the additional long-term care beds in our system.
We also faced another issue with respect to the Misericordia Hospital. Of all of our urban
facilities, of the nine urban facilities, Misericordia is probably the one, with the exception perhaps
of Health Sciences Centre, that is our major tertiary hospital, that is in need in the long term of a
great deal of capital expenditure. It is an old building. It has many old components to it that need
to be replaced. It needs capital expenditure to be able to live up to fire and safety standards.
So we do not require seven acute care hospitals in our system. Misericordia has some of
the oldest infrastructure in need of major capital investment. So, if you are going to make that
capital investment, you want to make sure you are making it where you really need it, not just to
necessarily maintain a facility for the sake of saying we have it when it may not be needed within
the system or is not necessarily needed within the system. The third part is that we have three
downtown hospitals in Winnipeg.
You know, I walk by the Misericordia on occasion in the evening, and from the
Misericordia Hospital, particularly from the roof of the Misericordia Hospital, you can see two
tertiary hospitals. It is not as if that part of the city does not have access to hospital care. In fact,
it has access to our two tertiary hospitals, a relatively close access. In fact, probably much closer
access than many other poor areas of the city of Winnipeg.
So let us not for one moment--I appreciate the sensitivity in the Wolseley area, and I
appreciate her responsibility as the member for that community, but in the larger picture one has
to put that into context. So just simply for those factors, the need to get the right number of
tertiary care or acute care facilities, the needed capital renovations that would be at that particular
facility, and the fact it was in the inner city with two other hospitals, St. Boniface and Health
Sciences Centre, already relatively close or in that area serving those communities, made it the
candidate, in essence, for change.
I say to the member for Wolseley that I have had many people involved in health care
planning for both Conservative and New Democratic Party governments over the last while speak
to me and tell me that dealing with the Misericordia Hospital has been an issue in government and
in health planning in this city for over 20 years, and it has never been able to be resolved because
of the politics around the Misericordia Hospital. What we have managed to do with the Winnipeg
Hospital Authority--and their recommendation to me was that we take exactly this approach.
That is why Neil Fast and I, Neil Fast being the chair of that hospital authority, actually put the
proposal together and visited the bishop early last fall to make this proposal to their board,
because it made sense for the whole Winnipeg scene.
So, in that context, I think it is a very justifiable decision. It is a logical decision, given the
overall planning, and although I appreciate the loyalty of many patients and I appreciate how
wonderful it is to live in a neighbourhood that has a hospital located in it, ultimately the
responsibility for myself as minister and for the Winnipeg hospital system is to build a system for
the whole city and do it on a logical basis.
So the advice from our planners, the advice from people working in the system, was that
this hospital needed to find a role. One thing I am very proud of in all of this is that, unlike, I
think, attempts in the past to deal with the future of the Misericordia, we recognized that just the
closure of that facility, the elimination of it was not a good idea. First of all, one would lose the
support base around the Misericordia, that there were health needs in the Wolseley area of that
city, and that the central location of that facility did provide some tremendous advantages to the
Winnipeg Hospital Authority in providing particular ambulatory services to the whole city and
even some provincial programs because of the location and the parkade, which made it a very
likely site and an easily accessible site in terms of the geography of the city. Far better than
putting some of those services in any one particular community hospital where they would be a
long distance from other quadrants of the city.
* (1450)
So we did make a proposal to give the Misericordia a new life, and we did, in a lot of
discussions with them and within the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, develop a plan that would see
them become essentially a long-term care facility--in fact, the largest one in the province--and its
parking facility and location made it very desirable from that point of view.
We have talked about it as being a home for a host of ambulatory programs. Some of
those have been identified; others, we are working on. I suspect there will be a continuing change
in that as new needs and opportunities arise. But, with respect to the primary urgency care
centre, what we envision--and I know there is a lot of concern around title, and the member for
Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) shared with me a document that had been put out by the WHA that left
some concern and that I think it could have been better phrased. But our intention is to have a
facility in that area that does really two things. One is to be a primary health care clinic with a
wide range of physician services with the ability to see physicians for one's primary health with
nurses, other health care providers, so that it becomes an easily accessible place for health care,
and the second part of this is to have an urgency care capability. Defining that further, identifying
what will be in there is part of what is going on now, but I would like to ensure that it has as
many urgency care services as possible, that it be on a 24-hour basis.
The difference, I guess, is with emergencies. Emergency in the true sense is there to be
able handle trauma and a variety of things that, quite frankly, often end up at the Health Sciences
Centre, because that is where our trauma capability is, that is where our high tertiary capability is,
et cetera. But many of the things just below that in terms of emergency or urgency rating should
be able to be done at that particular facility.
One of the issues, of course, is holding beds, observation beds, which may work itself into
that configuration, and that is part of the discussion that is going on to make sure that it is a
highly used and relevant facility, not just to her constituents--and I appreciate her asking because
it gives me an opportunity to talk about this in a public form--but we also envision that that
facility has the potential to provide some citywide services. It has been identified by the WHA as
being the home or situated with it is the sexual assault receiving area, so that victims of sexual
assault will be treated in a facility other than an emergency room because that often creates a fair
bit of concern and discomfort for them, so that sexual assault cases taken by the police or others
could be directed there. They would specialize in that particular service.
We have also identified that internally as having the potential to be a flu clinic in flu
season, so that it can gear up and staff up to deal with people wanting in for treatment for the flu.
That is very important. We had success in some of the clinics we ran, particularly in Courts of St.
James last year. So we see that as another purpose. We want to keep it open enough to add
services to it. There is a great potential, I think, to see it be an urgency primary care facility,
those two kinds of roles, 24-hour basis, access to the community.
The other component I mentioned to the member is that the WHA is now looking at its
interfacility transfer arrangements, because we recognize, as you change and specialize the
functions of facilities, people will access a facility. They may not be able to be treated in that
particular facility, particularly if they need some specialty care, and part of how we transport is
being addressed. A transport service of some type is being contemplated, and it is part of that
planning. So, if someone does walk in with a condition that ultimately cannot be treated there or
requires a medical or surgical bed, they can be stabilized in that particular setting and transported
to the appropriate facility or emergency room, quite likely the Health Sciences Centre, which is
almost within eyesight of the front of the Misericordia Hospital.
I say this sincerely to her and the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), despite the debate
that we have had over how one achieves that goal--I do say this sincerely to her and the member
for Crescentwood and my colleague the member for River Heights (Mr. Radcliffe) and for Fort
Garry, as that facility grows and develops, there is, I believe, a fair bit of room for the four MLAs
from that area to have some input and participation in helping with the community to find the
roles it needs that that centre will be there. I do not want to say to her today that everything is
hard and fast and written in stone. There is evolution, but it is our intention and our purpose--and
we intend to support that financially--to make that a highly successful primary health care and
urgency care centre.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, the minister may be able to see two hospitals from the roof of the
Misericordia, but those hospitals have people on their waiting list, people in hallways, people who
are there for 48 hours, 72 hours, waiting on gurneys in hallways. This is what you see from the
roof of the Misericordia. It is not a system which is open to accepting all of the people who arrive
there by taxi or by bus, or who do not have the facilities to go and come that other people do, so
the minister is painting an extremely rosy picture of the ability of the existing facilities to take the
traffic, to take the patients that the Misericordia has taken in the past. Twenty-one percent of
surgeries, the second or third busiest emergency room in the city, those are the statistics that have
always been there, that have not gone away from the Misericordia. The minister is essentially
giving me a response based not upon medical service but upon location and age of building.
What I am asking for is an evaluation of the health needs of that community and of the
ability of hospitals and clinics in Winnipeg to meet the needs of that community, and I do not
think the minister has addressed that at all. What he has addressed is a planner's dream of age of
building, fire codes, safety codes. I remind the minister that in Europe and parts of the United
States, there are hospitals which are many, many years--perhaps even centuries--older than the
Misericordia, which are still giving good service to the citizens of inner Paris or inner London. So
the age of the building to me is not the issue. There has been a great deal of capital work at the
Misericordia Hospital, the creation of new wings of the hospital. In the 1960s there was
reconstruction of the kitchens, a very modern kitchen that was put in, I might remind him, by one
of his own predecessors, Don Orchard, so I am not sure that that argument holds water at all.
What my constituents are concerned about is that they are not going to get the service no
matter where. It is not just that you are taking it away from a, quote, very convenient location,
but you are distributing it to hospitals and to institutions which are not capable of meeting the
needs. I think we have raised that not just on behalf of my constituents, but on behalf of many
people over the last number of months in this House.
I want to ask the minister finally if he can tell us, because there is a great deal of confusion
about what the urgent nonemergency care centre is going to mean. It is clear from the minister's
answer that there are many possibilities, and I appreciate him putting that on the record.
There are certainly many ways of looking at this, and it is not yet decided. The minister
indicates that the community--I expect that, when he says MLAs, he means the community, I
hope he does, and, certainly, I know that all of us, including those on his side of the House, would
be very interested in taking part in that. I should remind him that so far we have not--the
community has not been invited, has not been spoken to, has not been consulted, not even
constituted part of any consultation on the future of any part of the role of the Misericordia.
So this is a first, and I certainly appreciate the minister, some years into this process,
effectively offering that opportunity. It certainly comes again after the assets have been stripped
and after the options for the Misericordia and for the health needs of the community have
certainly been narrowed. I would like to ask the minister what he exactly believes is the situation
at the Misericordia today. Is the emergency department open 24 hours? Is it able to accept
patients to be admitted to the hospital from emergency, or is it simply now a triage system where
they are sent to other hospitals? If that is the case, how long is that situation going to last, when
does the transition occur to urgent, essentially, outpatient care of a 24-hour variety? When do
these shifts occur, and how are people going to be informed about them? Is there any time in that
period, in that shift, for any kind of community consultation?
* (1500)
Mr. Praznik: The member has flagged a number of issues that I would like to address again in
context. I appreciate her comment about people saying, well, will I get the service at the other
hospitals, is there room? To answer that I think one has to understand the complexities in the
world in which those facilities are operating today. The problem in our other facilities, in terms of
shortage of beds, has very much been the need to use primarily medical beds, at one point nearly
300 of our 700 medical beds in the Winnipeg hospital system to house those individuals waiting
for long-term care. With the announcement--and members opposite may criticize us for not
having done it earlier, and that is part of fair debate, and there are reasons we would argue why
that could not be done, but that aside--those additional 550 beds, the vast majority of which are
being built in the city of Winnipeg, will go a long way to taking that pressure off the current use
of hospital beds, not for the purpose for which they were intended.
So, quite frankly, that should free up a major number of beds in those facilities. Part of
the Misericordia plan, as well, is--and she has referenced the capital works and investments, and
quite rightly so, that have been made in that hospital. I imagine the Cornish wing was built in the
'60s; it looks about that vintage. Those parts of the facility, quite frankly, are surviving. In fact,
they will have significant renovations, some of which I understand are being discussed to begin
this fall, as we are doing the safety and fire upgrades to complete the entire renovation at one
time, which is more cost-efficient. The Misericordia plan will have 280 long-term beds and
approximately 170 or 175, depending on how the architect's work comes out, transitional beds.
Those transitional beds, in essence, are for people who are waiting for placement in the personal
care home of their choice.
Right now we house those people throughout our hospital system in Winnipeg. The plan
here--and some of that will begin this winter, and I will touch upon that in a few moments--is to
be able, as those beds are available, to move those transitional patients, in essence, to the
Misericordia, thereby freeing up medical beds in other facilities.
With respect to emergency and concerns that emergency wards across the city, I do not
have the numbers in front of me. On our analysis of what emergency wards are being used for
today, there is a high preponderance for people to use those wards to visit doctors, not being an
emergence situation or even an urgent situation. We have also found that many hospitals use their
emergency wards for admitting, both of which tend to not be efficient uses of a true emergency
room.
Part of the plan with the Winnipeg Hospital Authority is making some of the adjustments
and changes which will quite frankly get better use out of our existing emergency rooms in the
system. Developing and using primary health care/urgency care clinics or facilities also, I think,
will take pressure off emergency rooms because that is where you go if you are sick, your child is
sick with the flu, maybe you have cut yourself and you need to be sutured. Many of the minor
things that tend today to plug our emergency rooms, particularly in emergencies where you have
trauma coming in, because those more minor injuries or illnesses wait while the trauma is being
addressed.
So if we can develop our health care clinics to take on a larger role, and I envision this
clinic at Misericordia, with the centre urgency primary health care centre, should take up a large
percentage of the work that is currently being done in the emergency ward at the Misericordia
hospital, that the amount of trauma cases or emergency, obviously high-need cases, is probably
the smallest percentage of what they do. I do not have the numbers in front of me. So it is really
those that are diverted to other centres, so that is part of the balance and the planning.
I say to the member, as well, one thing we learned last winter going through the flu
season, we had a success at the Courts of St. James where we worked to put in a clinic to deal
with the flu. There is a high preponderance of seniors in those blocks at the Courts of St. James.
They are right next door to the Grace Hospital, and so when you are ill, you need to see a doctor
and you go to the emergency ward at the Grace. That tends to be a problem because it quite
frankly fills the emergency room there with not really emergencies, but people who need to see a
physician, have medication prescribed, et cetera. I think we would all agree that is really not what
an emergency ward is there for.
So we did work to put in a clinic last year in the Courts of St. James to deal with flu, and
that is something with the Long Term Care Authority we want to expand. We are looking at this
fall for some expansions, particularly in areas where you have a high number of seniors blocks.
Misericordia will be added to that. Within the community clinic system across Winnipeg--I am
thinking of Mount Carmel and Aboriginal Health and Wellness in Norwest and others--we are
looking now, we are having the Long Term Care Authority looking at our ability to use those to
pick up and extend hours in those clinics, to be able to pick up a lot of the stuff that finds itself in
the emergency ward because their doctors' offices are not open, or they do not have physicians.
I would imagine that is part of the issue, as well, in the Wolseley area, having had friends
who lived there in their university days, that there is an elderly population that has its physicians
and services, but there is also a fair turnover of students and other people in that area who may
not come with physicians and need the care, go to the emergency ward at that time.
So this clinic and this kind of walk-in service--
An Honourable Member: When is it going to change?
Mr. Praznik: Okay, yes, I will just get to that. We will be there. Now, with respect to about
two things, the process of change and involvement of the community, we made the announcement
of principle, about what we are trying to achieve, and the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, with the
Misericordia Board of Directors and management, have struck an implementation team that was
agreed between the two parties. They are working now with the care providers, physician groups
in that area to devise the plan for implementation. There is a great deal of work and effort going
into that because if one step is out of place, you can cause a plug somewhere else in the system,
or have something fall through the cracks.
So they are working on the detail of that particular plan. We have encouraged them to
involve the community. One of the issues that is there, and I recognize, is community
involvement. I do not mean to touch again upon a touchy subject, but when the member for
Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) and I had an exchange on this matter in Estimates, the member for
Crescentwood flagged the Misericordia board, although very caring and compassionate, has not
over the years been able to necessarily build the level of community involvement that he was, in
fact, comfortable with. This obviously is a shortcoming he has identified, and it is one that I am
going to be encouraging our people to be suggesting to Misericordia very strongly that they have
to ensure, particularly in this primary urgency care clinic, that they are involving the community,
and the community represented by MLAs, city councillors, by the public themselves, should have
a role. I am not the owner of that facility. They are. They are the governing board of that
facility.
The reason I referred to the Member for Crescentwood's (Mr. Sale) remarks, and I stand
by my statements, is that what he was asking for me to do in operating agreements with the
Misericordia Hospital, which by the way I thought were very thoughtful and very wise on his part,
and that he identified a shortcoming. He was asking that I ensure that--put these in and insist they
be in and put in operating agreements--and the point I made with him that day is I do not have the
power to do that. That is part of why we are seeking that in the Legislature.
But the member's point is valid and that message will be conveyed through the Winnipeg
Hospital Authority to Misericordia. I am hoping that that board of directors pays heed to that
message that they should be involving people in the community in the development particularly of
their community-based particular needs in that clinic. I will convey that.
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Chairman, when we saw the capital spending that
the government put forward under one of the items listed under a major project, the nursing
station for Sapotaweyak Cree Nation, and when we saw that, in fact I was very pleased to see
that the government had recognized the importance of establishing a nursing station in that
community. However, when we did some checking, we found out that although it was listed as a
major project and other projects that were not listed as major projects were getting up in the
range of $300,000 for renovations to facilities, but Sapotaweyak Cree Nation for their nursing
station were only getting $80,000, if I understand correctly the funding.
Mr. Ben Sveinson, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair
I wonder whether the minister can explain this situation. This is a very important nursing
station. It provides service not only to Sapotaweyak Cree Nation but there is also Pelican Rapids,
which is a Metis community right next door. We are all looking for ways to provide better health
care services for people. One of the problems, and I do not know whether the minister is aware
where this community is located, but they are about a mile--an hour and a half out of Swan River.
At the present time, a tremendous amount of money is being spent transporting people back and
forth when they need services, but also there have been losses of life because people have not
been able to make it to the hospital quickly enough.
* (1510)
The facility is very important, but I also think that the province, if they list the project as a
capital project, that they should show more commitment than they have. I would ask the minister
to explain why this project was listed as a major project and then find out that there is only
$80,000 attached to it, because the minister is well aware that any renovations to hospitals--$80,000 is actually a very small amount compared to some of the amounts that have to be spent
on renovations. So I would ask the minister if he could explain why that decision was made, and
whether there is any possibility of revisiting that decision in order to ensure that the assistance that
was required to help Sapotaweyak fulfill their dream of having a nursing station and providing
services for the people of that area can actually happen.
Mr. Praznik: An interesting discussion on location because I know the concerns about
Misericordia and I appreciate those. If I was the MLA for Wolseley, I would be asking exactly
the same questions and making the same case. The member for Swan River and I, who both
represent areas of this province that have much larger distances between communities, appreciate
that to have a hospital right in your own community is such a rare privilege or event for most
Manitobans, for many of us in our communities, that we are an hour--I think it varies in the
Rupertsland constituency, like Bissett and Manigotagan that are over an hour to the Pine Falls
facility.
So, when one is sort of weighing these things in terms of priorities, obviously there is a
recognition that in many parts of this province, the distances--even within the City of Winnipeg,
the distance to various hospitals is far greater than one in--it is such a rare privilege to be in to
have a hospital. The member nods in agreement. She knows of what I speak; it is part of that
balancing.
I have addressed this issue I think three times. I think we discussed it somewhat in
Estimates. It was raised with me the other day by, I believe, the member for Thompson (Mr.
Ashton) in the Estimates committee. I have no problem addressing it again because I appreciate it
is of concern to that community.
We are only a small party in this particular project. This is a federal project on a First
Nation, and what we have done, though, is--the member has rightly flagged the Metis community
that is next door which is a provincial jurisdiction community, and we provide a number of
services in there. So, consequently, rather than reinventing the wheel twice, we have agreed to be
part of their clinic or their building and to purchase by way of a capital contribution the space in
that building that we will use for the delivery of provincial programs and services in our area of
responsibility.
It was determined, I believe, in discussions with the federal government, who have the
responsibility and are the lead in this project, that our share would be the sum $80,000 or
whatever is listed in our Estimates as what we have approved. But we are not the owners of the
building, we are not the project managers of the building, we are not the developers of the
building. We, in essence, are buying a piece of the building for the provincial services. So the
work to deliver the project and the lion's share of the dollars, because it is a First Nations
community, will come from the budgets within, I gather, the federal Department of Health and
Welfare, Medical Services branch. I believe that is where they come from.
I indicated last Thursday to the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) in our Estimates, at
the conclusion of our Estimates, that my staff would endeavour to find out for us exactly what the
status is on the federal side. I would suggest sincerely, I do not say this to you in a partisan way,
but perhaps it is time for a few letters from local politicians, M.P.s, councillors, and communities
to Mr. Rock, again just to flag the issue and indicate its importance. I can assure her that the
provincial co-operation and dollars for our share of the building are there and will flow when the
building construction begins and we would normally flow those dollars.
Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, that is good advice about writing letters, and I will take that
advice. I hope the minister recognizes that although they provide a small amount of services to
the Metis community that the dollars that are going to be saved on the provincial coffers by
having the service there, the transportation dollars, the province will recoup their capital very
quickly. I think for that reason that the minister should give some reconsideration as to whether
or not the amount of capital being put in is sufficient for the amount of service that is going to
actually be gained because of dollars that will be saved in transportation costs and in lives that will
be saved, I am sure.
But, you know, it is going to mean, if services are going to be provided right there, people
are not going to be going out for blood tests, people are not going to be going out for treatment
for diabetes or testing, and many of the tests will be able to be done right in the community, which
will improve the quality of life in the community but reflect on the provincial expenses. I hope the
minister will consider that in his decisions and maybe reconsider the amount of money that is
being put in there.
I want to move on to another topic that is important to rural Manitobans. That is the
service of mammograms. I was very concerned when I heard about what was happening at
Misericordia Hospital and the fact that mammogram services were going to be fragmented and
moved to different parts of the city, because rural women many times were the ones who were
taking advantage of having the residential facilities right in Misericordia, to be able to have
complete treatment as far as surgery, plastic surgery afterwards, treatment, counselling, and it was
all in a very compact area. So I was disappointed to hear that that service was being fragmented,
and I hope that the minister can address how he feels that that is going to be addressed.
But another issue that I am very supportive of and one that I have lobbied the government
on many times was that we would have mobile mammogram service in rural Manitoba. The
government has made the announcement that we are going to have it, and I want to commend all
of those people who have done fundraising in order to enable us to purchase that first mobile
mammogram unit.
However, I would like to ask the minister how soon we can expect that service to be
delivered in rural Manitoba and whether it is the plan of the government to ensure that during the
winter months when winter roads are in place that we also have mammogram service in many of
the outlying communities where women many times do not have the necessary tests that are
required because it is so difficult to access this service.
Again, by taking the service out to the community, in the long run this is preventative
health, and in the long run, as a province, we save many, many dollars and, indeed, save lives.
Mr. Praznik: A couple of issues just on the clinic. I appreciate the member's comments about
savings. I do not know what the analysis would produce because there are still many reasons why
they would be transported to Swan River to the hospital there. But those same savings will also
come to the federal government because the same savings will be there for First Nations people.
We did negotiate, I understand, with the federal government and agreed that our
contribution would be $80,000 or whatever it is. The holdup is not us. It is the feds who have to
make a decision to go within their budget, and that is really the issue. If that can be resolved, we
are there and we are going. We certainly do not want there to be any holdup on that particular
project. I appreciate its importance to the community.
With respect to mammography, there has been a lot of discussion and I think some
confusion over breast care issues in the city of Winnipeg. It should be noted that we did not have
just one program at Misericordia. We had four different programs across the city, with surgery
being delivered in seven hospitals. So on an overall basis within Winnipeg, in the total breast care
package, we have a very fragmented program today.
The mammography part of it, although located at Misericordia, is not technically part of
the Misericordia program. It is operated by the Manitoba Cancer Treatment and Research
Foundation, the mammography clinic which is a screening clinic, and is there, will continue. It is
an ideal location because of the parkade being there. It is a central location in Winnipeg and
obviously the province.
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So as the general breast care program is being refined and put together, I know many of
the community organizations with an interest in this area are at the table and have been invited to
participate in designing that program, and it is going quite well. I do not have an up-to-date
report on its status, but I know, if I remember correctly, the mammography portion at
Misericordia is located there. That is the one centre I believe we have in Winnipeg for
mammography, so it is not going to be split up with machines all across the city.
With respect to the rural program and the two machines, community organizations
undertook fundraising for the capital cost of one machine, and they did a superb job in raising
those dollars. I thank them for that tremendous effort and contribution. We agreed that when the
dollars were in place for the machine, we would fund its operating. We recognize that one
machine may not be enough, and so we as a province are funding the second machine, the second
unit, and its operating.
I do not today have in front of me--and I apologize to the member. I have checked
through my briefing book and notes, and I do not have before me an updated list with the start
dates. I know the work is being done now to put the team in place. There is training to be done.
I would say, as well, to the member, we learned a number of things about this program from our
colleagues in Saskatchewan where they have the machine. Saskatchewan is considerably different
from Manitoba in that they have a lot of small cities and small centres, whereas Manitoba has one
gigantic centre in Winnipeg, some larger centres in Portage, Brandon, Steinbach, Dauphin,
Thompson, Flin Flon, The Pas and then a number of smaller centres, but we do not have the same
kind of distribution. So our needs are somewhat different in terms of geography.
We did look at their program in Saskatchewan. We sought their advice and what they
learned in getting into the program. What was described to me was an interesting component to
this. In Saskatchewan, they have a motor-home type facility in which they have their machine.
They found a couple of things, and the member hit upon one, the weather. They found that it was
very awkward for the operators driving this, particularly in the winter. They found that it was
often not suitable for delivering service in cold weather, just a small confined space, et cetera. So
their recommendation to us, or at least to our officials, was that a better way to deliver the
program would be to use vans, put the equipment in vans, move the equipment into a public
building or public place in the community, set up the clinic and operate it in a building, then pack
up the equipment and move on to the next community.
So that is the approach, I understand, that we are taking in putting this together. It is
simply learning from the experience of those who have walked before you. So our two machines
will be on that basis.
With respect to using the North, I would hope that as part of the schedule--in fact, I
expect, and I guess as minister when I expect something, it should be done, that northern
communities, of course, will be part of that. I do not know how we are handling the winter road
or those issues, but that has to be part of the consideration. There are some issues around
funding, I guess, with the federal government, but that should not preclude service from being
provided. Those are things to work out.
I would suggest that the member may want to just drop by my office and have a word with
Bob Rauscher in my office, and he can probably get for you the up-to-date information on timing
and expectation.
Ms. Wowchuk: Perhaps if I do not get a chance to drop by the minister's office, if the minister
could provide us in writing the anticipated start-up dates, because we have a lot of interest and a
lot of calls coming in for this service. So I will follow it up there.
I only have one more question to ask, and that is one issue again that I have raised many
times with the government. It is a rural service and one that was provided for a year, I believe,
and then the government withdrew the funding. Given the situation we have in rural Manitoba
with an increased amount of stress amongst many people, changing environment, stress within the
farming community, I wonder whether the minister is giving any consideration to reinstating the
additional funding that is required to ensure that the rural stress line operates and provides the
necessary services. I know that we have the services that are provided through an organization in
Winnipeg that people can tap into, but the minister is a rural person. He knows that the needs and
issues in rural Manitoba are different many times.
There is a staff of people in rural Manitoba who have been trained to address the concerns
and handle the calls in rural Manitoba, but the service is not being provided anymore as a rural
service, and I wonder if the minister, if he does not have the information with him, if he could
update me on any information that he has on the future possibilities of reinstating the rural stress
line services.
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Acting Chair, first of all, I appreciate the need for that line when we were
going through a few years ago a terrible situation with low commodity prices, terrible weather,
and just everything that could go wrong seemed to for particularly our agricultural community.
Obviously, things have improved considerably, and, consequently, needs change for that kind of a
stress service.
By way of a bit of an aside, we have approved the extension of the mental health teams
that have been operating in the flood areas of rural Manitoba from last year. I think I have
extended their operation until September, October. I do not remember the exact date, but if they
are required to be extended again, we will, because there is certainly a need. There are still some
families who have been very traumatized by what they suffered last year.
I do not have my notes in front of me, but what I remember of this issue from some time
ago, one of the difficulties is as the demand for that service declined, the cost of it on a per-call
basis became just so exorbitant to maintain it as we did, so we did make arrangements with the
service in Winnipeg that she has referenced to be able to provide that assistance, primarily because
the service was not being used sufficiently which is a good sign, I would think, of improving
conditions, and it made the cost per call just so prohibitive in terms of use of resources.
So we have made those alternative arrangements, and I say to her if there ever arose a
situation again where the demand was obvious, because we are getting calls on the other line from
time to time, if the demand grew where it was again better to have a dedicated line to that, we
would certainly consider it.
Mr. Chairperson in the Chair
Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): I was prompted by a comment of the minister earlier on with
respect to the dilemma of the flu season to a commitment the minister had made during the course
of Estimates to provide statistics on the flu-related illnesses that afflicted our emergency rooms
during the winter and the spring of this year, and I wonder if we will be getting access to that
information.
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, if I have made that commitment, you certainly will be. I would guess at
this time that it still has to be or is being compiled. Obviously, under the old regime, as we move
through a transition, our tracking information to get specific numbers for him does take some
time. When that is available, if I have in Estimates committed to that--we keep a list of those
commitments--we certainly will provide him with that information.
Mr. Chomiak: Also during the course of Estimates, with respect to the United Shared Services
and the food services provision, the chairman of USSC indicated that the savings as a result of the
shared food services would be in the range of $3.2 million with respect to the hospital and with
respect to the cafeteria services, something like $2 million, for a total of about $5 million per year.
I am wondering if the minister can confirm, in fact, whether that is the figure.
Mr. Praznik: As part of a more meaningful Estimates process, I had Mr. Sheil attend, as the
CEO of Urban Shared Services, to answer those questions. As the member knows, I have my
briefing notes on a number of issues. That is not one which I have, so I think we would have to
check back to Hansard. The number does sound somewhat familiar, but I cannot confirm
specifically. I do not have that in front of me here today.
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Mr. Chomiak: Also during the course of Estimates, and the fact it might have not come out is
not a fault of the government or the minister, but we had discussed with respect to the amount of
capital required to convert the kitchen facilities at Health Sciences Centre, et cetera. The minister
had used a figure of $35 million, and that figure is in Hansard. We had talked both with capital
people about arriving at some specifics as to that figure, and then when Mr. Sheil was in, we
talked to Mr. Sheil specifically about how he arrived at that figure and neither with the capital
people nor Mr. Sheil did we get to that particular issue.
I am wondering if the minister will commit to table, as a result of the Estimates, the
specific information as it relates to the $35-million expenditure that has been indicated by the
minister that had to be expended in order to upgrade the kitchen facilities.
Mr. Praznik: That number is one I recall from my staff in capital planning and with Urban
Shared Services as the estimate as to what the Winnipeg hospital system was facing in its upgrade
of kitchen facilities. I will endeavour to firm that up in terms of how that was estimated.
I can tell the member that like all preliminary estimates on capital construction, because
we face this in our own estimates of building costs on facilities, particularly renovations have the
nasty problem when you get into them of sometimes producing some surprises that you have to
deal with. As well, when you get into tendering, sometimes you get some pleasant or not so
pleasant surprises on your estimate. So they were, like all estimates at the beginning of the
process, certainly not your final number, but those were the numbers that I was provided with,
and I will endeavour to see what information we can provide to give a background to those
numbers for the member.
Mr. Chomiak: Just for the information of the minister, I should advise I probably will not be as
issue specific or area specific as we go through the course of these questions as we normally do
because of the nature of this process, so I apologize for jumping back and forth on occasion from
one area to another, but I am attempting to do in an hour and a half what normally might occur
over a many, many-hour period.
An issue came up with respect to the seven-month waiting list as it applies to the bone
density scanner several days ago. The minister indicated there was a plan as it related to the bone
density scanner that was going to be put in place.
Can the minister outline specifically what is being done on a short-term and a long-term
basis in order to deal with the seven-month waiting list as it applies to the bone density scanner
issue? What is going to be done in the short term, the long term in relation to the present seven-month waiting list as it applies to bone density scanners in Manitoba?
Mr. Praznik: As the member knows, I was given a mandate to bring down the 1,200 on the list,
which we did quite successfully actually a little bit ahead of schedule, if I remember correctly. We
also wanted to ensure that the list did not go up again. The Winnipeg Hospital Authority, Dr.
Blake McClarty, has been in the process of organizing, getting control, taking over this particular
area. I understand there was a short period of time in which temporary dollars and new funding
did not match as they should, as I have discovered. There was a period where there was a
reduction in the number of bone density scans being performed of some weeks. That contributed
somewhat to the numbers going up again. That has been corrected in that the dollars have
flowed. The number of procedures, of course, per week is going up, which stabilized the list.
The other problem, I understand, that happened is there was a fairly pent-up demand, I
gather. No one quite knew how pent up that demand was or would or would not be. So
consequently, as the lists came down, they have filled back up again, certainly not a two-year
waiting list as before. I understand they went up to something like eight months, stabilized, and
are now back again on their way down. This was brought to my attention, to be blunt, just a few
days ago, the list having gone up to that point. Although it was coming down, it was not coming
down as fast as I wanted. I had asked my acting deputy Mr. Potter to ensure Dr. McClarty had
the resources he needed to be able to bring it down at a faster pace, and I understand that is
happening, so a little glitch in the financing flow, and secondly, a great pent-up demand putting
names on the list.
I understand, as well, that the protocols about who should be getting and who should not
be getting bone density scans are just coming into place. I was told by our operational staff that
those on the list currently, there are a number of those who may, in fact, not qualify on the
protocols and quite frankly are on the list but do not require the particular densitometry. So that
has to be sorted out somewhat, and I am hoping within the next couple of weeks that list will have
come down or be on its way to coming down, back to kind of the stable level where we intend it
to be.
The member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) has always, I think, appreciated the difficulties
in managing the system, and some occasions has indicated these things are not always about
money. There is a sense of how we organize and put these things together.
We have been over the last year in this transition to the Winnipeg Hospital Authority. The
ability of a Dr. Blake McClarty and others to get their job done is growing daily, and there are
going to be some kinks in this to work out. This is one that had that. As I said, when it was
brought to my attention just the other day that there had been a problem with the list going up, we
have moved to ensure that the additional resources are in place to bring it down to what should be
a reasonable and acceptable waiting period for this diagnostic procedure.
Mr. Chomiak: Will the minister undertake to provide us with the protocols of all of the various
protocols that are being established as it relates to diagnostic procedures similar to the bone
density scanners so that we would have some idea as to qualifications in that regard?
Mr. Praznik: That is an excellent idea. I would imagine these are public documents. Barring
something that I am not aware of that prohibits me from doing this in law or ownership, I have no
problem with doing that. In fact, I would take it a step further. I think for some of these
protocols it would be probably very effective to provide them to every member of the Legislature,
because I know from time to time we get calls from constituents about why or why not services
are available, and I am sure all members might be interested in being able to at least see the
protocol.
They, in fact, are being developed by physicians, not by bureaucracies and planners, but by
physicians, to ensure that services are being appropriately used and can be effective, so that
resources are not wasted and spent when they have no health outcome in a particular case. I am
fairly certain that the member agrees with that type of purpose in establishing protocols.
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, we have had some discussions with respect to Victoria Park
Lodge at Souris, Manitoba. We have made a suggestion, similar to the situation that developed
as it relates to the Odd Fellows hall in Winnipeg, whether or not the government would consider
some kind of a provision or a transitional arrangement so as not to cause dislocation in the
community, particularly at a time when there is generally a shortage of long-term care beds.
I wonder if the minister might comment on the government position in that regard.
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, perhaps the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) and I cut some new
ground in the field of this Legislature, and we were both somewhat innovative in our approach.
My legislative assistant has been handling this particular matter and meeting with parties, and if
the member would agree to indulge the committee, I would ask of him as my legislative assistant
if he could address this specifically, rather than have him say it to me and I repeat it to members of
the committee. Would there be leave to allow that to happen?
Mr. Chairperson: Is there leave to allow the minister's legislative assistant to answer that
question?
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, philosophically, I do not have a problem with it, but I would
rather not be charting new ground at this point, given my relative inexperience in this Chamber
compared to other members of this august body.
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Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, I appreciate the position of the member, and although I have some
different views on legislative reform and the roles of legislative assistants in this Legislature and
working in process, perhaps today is not the day to cut new ground, even on a temporary basis.
The member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) advises me, and under instruction, I asked
him to meet with the parties to see if some resolution could be found. I understand that he has
done that. He has spoken to all those involved, including the residents, and that they, in fact, are
working currently on a proposal that would see that facility converted into some form of housing,
assisted-living housing, under some new organizational structure. That would allow for it to
continue in a role for which it is appropriate with that new organizational structure and the other
issues of long-term care being addressed.
I understand that part of the issue is that it is on a very beautiful site, and the community
would like to see that remain in some form of community housing, given how beautiful it is. Yet
there is a recognition that there is a need for Level 3 and 4 long-term care beds and that this
facility just does not need that particular need or would not meet that need. So I think a good
compromise is in the works. It is not so much as a transition. It would be a personal care home
in appropriate beds and appropriate place, and this particular building ending up some form of an
assisted-living seniors housing complex on the current site under some community organization or
arrangement. If that can be worked out to the satisfaction of the community, I am certainly going
to be supportive of that resolution.
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, one of the issues that was significant by its absence from the
plan of the Winnipeg Hospital Authority and that we did not have an opportunity to discuss in
Estimates was the whole issue of labs and the future of labs in Manitoba insofar as there have
been some developments in the past few months. I wonder if the minister might update us as to
the status of that particular project.
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, the member asks a timely but perhaps even too timely question,
because I have been working with our Treasury Board to develop the options that I have not yet
taken for the consideration of my colleagues in cabinet. My intention is to do that relatively soon
because we recognize that a decision has to be made to allow people to get on with their lives and
planning.
I do want to say to him this: that this is not a matter that is ideologically driven. It is one
that I think is very practical, and the options that are available to us, I think, are very practical,
and even some of them the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), I suspect, could heartily concur
with.
So we have been negotiating, as the member knows, with the MDs for some time. We
have looked at all of our options, including a contract with them, although I can tell the member
the expected savings were not as great as we had initially been led to believe. So we have a
number of options, and the specifics around those options we have been developing with our
Treasury Board, and at some time in the relatively near future I will be taking the matter to
cabinet for a decision.
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I will ask two questions. The first I anticipate probably not a
response to; the second, I am hoping for a response to. I wonder if the minister might outline the
options that he is considering, and the second question is: can the minister give us an answer in
terms of timing? This obviously affects people involved and who have been on tenterhooks for
some time now. Are we talking weeks, are we talking months in terms of a resolution of this
issue so people can have some ideas as to how they can get on with their lives?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, the great dilemma of a minister, knowing the answers to the questions,
wanting to provide the answers but recognizing that I have an obligation and responsibility as a
member of the Executive Council. As I have indicated in the previous answer, I have prepared a
number of options. Obviously there is a recommendation I am making to cabinet, and in fairness
to my cabinet colleagues I would not want to prejudice their right as members of the Executive
Council to explore those options and come to a conclusion.
So, obviously, I cannot go into those options with the member. If I were to give a time
frame around it, I might find that that is not the time frame of cabinet. So I have to refrain from
doing that, but I can tell the member that we do recognize that this was a matter we were hoping
to have resolved last fall because we did not identify in the negotiations the level of savings we
had anticipated, and we have been negotiating very hard with MDS. It has taken somewhat
longer to do, but I recognize there are people who are waiting, and any decision cabinet is going
to make is going to have to be made on a very timely basis. Obviously these matters cannot hang
around for too much longer.
Mr. Chomiak: Can the minister outline for us, briefly if possible, the status of the hepatitis C
negotiations as well as the status of the new blood agency scheduled I believe to commence
operations September of this year, if I remember correctly?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, there was a conference call this afternoon at one o'clock of provincial
ministers of Health. Most regrettably, I was meeting with the chairs of the regional health
authorities for their monthly meeting, and I was not able to get back to the building until 25 after
one, and then come to Question Period, so I have not been briefed by my deputy minister who
represented me on that particular call yet. So to give him the most up-to-date briefing, I am
regrettably not in a position to do that.
I can tell him that on the hepatitis C negotiations, the smaller provinces have obviously
taken the view that because of the shifting position of Ontario and somewhat of Quebec and the
need to have a significant federal presence in any expansion that it is fundamentally important that
those parties resolve where they want to be on this issue and that once they have done that with
some certainty, then the rest of us, I think, are very prepared to be there to put together a
program that will be national in character.
The difficulty, though, of getting into it today and being asked for specifics on positions is
that whatever we say or do is not going to matter at all if it is not acceptable to Ontario and the
federal government. They are the key players in making this happen, and they have been having a
relationship that has been a difficult one to be at the table.
I share with him very candidly that I find it somewhat disturbing when we have had
meetings of officials recently where position papers and information that are brought to these
meetings for the purpose of fleshing out options, the member knows from his experience as a
councillor and in other roles that it is very hard to have meaningful negotiations on the pages of
newspapers or in the media.
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You have to have the ability to explore and discuss and speak candidly about where you
can and cannot be. What we found most disturbing is when our officials met the next day, all of
the documents appeared, I think, in one of the Ontario newspapers, in The Ottawa Citizen, and I
do not know where they were leaked from. I have my suspicions, but that has been a problem
with this process. So there is a great reluctance, to be blunt, of the smaller provinces to be taking
positions on specific components today for fear that either Ontario or the federal government will
then turn around and attack us or use us as an excuse for whatever they are or are not doing.
Just for example, if we all said we would do a program to a certain level, and Ontario
initially had talked about doing something a little bit richer, well, it would give them the ability to
say, well, we are bringing ours down but it is not our fault, it is the rest of the provinces and get
into that kind of political game. We have been burnt once in this process as provincial ministers
and, quite frankly, there is a reluctance to be burnt a second time. So the reality of this situation,
and I say this very sincerely to the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), is that the Government
of Canada has to tell us what they are really prepared to put into this. The Government of
Ontario has to say what they are really prepared to do so they are not out changing the game after
everybody has agreed.
When they come to that resolution and complete their political maneuvering, then we will
know what is on the table for the vast lion's share of it. Again, if it is reasonable and deliverable in
Manitoba, because we want to be part of a national program, we will be there and participate in it.
So I wish it was another way, believe me, but it is not. All of us smaller provinces have had that
general perception of where we are at. As I say, I do not have an update as of today's telephone
call, but that is where it was as of this morning.
Mr. Chomiak: Can the minister briefly update us with respect to the blood agency that is going
to be set up, I believe, as of September 1 of this year?
Mr. Praznik: I forgot my reference. The board has been appointed and is in operation. They
are getting themselves up and ready to take over from the Red Cross. The agreement with the
Red Cross for the transfer has, in fact, I think, been very close to being worked out and
concluded. There are still some issues being fleshed out.
The financial arrangements that will be required to put the blood agency in operation are
currently making their way through Treasury Boards across the country, and we in Manitoba are
in the process of working through the financial issues in our province. As far as I am aware, we
are still on track for a fall takeover of the blood system from the Red Cross.
Mr. Chomiak: Just for my understanding with respect to the financing of that, is the minister
saying that there is an additional appropriation to that that is already contained in the Estimates
book to deal with transition, or is the transition funding already contained within the Estimates for
this year?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, as the member can appreciate, we can attempt to book at budget time
what we expect to need, but the negotiations for the purchase of assets--and the federal
government is providing funding for a share of that--one could only anticipate. So I know we
tried to book an appropriate amount of money in this year's budget for what we anticipated. I am
not sure if that is adequate or not. I do not have those specifics in front of me, because I have not
seen the latest numbers. But our intention was to give the best guess for this year's Estimates, but
it has been a somewhat dynamic and evolving process. I am sure within the next week or two
that we will be able to answer that specifically.
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, one of the issues that is on a recurring basis actually occurred
in this Legislature and has occurred across the country, the whole issue of nurse problems, and
there are a variety of issues. It is not nurses who are the problem; rather, nurses are having
difficulties in the system.
The MNU did a report that was provided to the minister. Has there been any specific
follow-up, and is there anticipated to be a specific follow-up to the issues raised by the MNU in
their report that was recently provided to the minister?
Mr. Praznik: Yes, Mr. Chair, I am just looking for a series of letters from the nursing
organizations. I think I had them in my House book yesterday for tabling, and I do not have them
here. I think my staff is going to get them, and I would be prepared to provide them to the
member.
The Manitoba Nurses' Union's survey--and they have done that survey for many, many
years, and it is one based on their reports. The Manitoba Nurses' Union has a role to play in the
small "p" politics of health care and advancing their issues and causes on behalf of their members,
and I recognize that. I also recognize, too, that one should not just dismiss their report on that
basis, that there are things to be learned from it.
What I am attempting to do is, rather than solve things on an ad hoc basis, although
sometimes one has to do that, I am trying to address--and we have talked about this somewhat
before. Many of those nursing issues stem from ability for hands-on relationships with patients,
their workplace issues. Some, by the way, are the way we hire nurses, and I have recognized very
fully Vera Chernecki's, their president's, comments about part-time, short-term jobs, and one of
the interesting things that is happening out of the regionalization process is I have been very
strong on the RHAs to be developing ways of having more full-time employment of nurses
because you are managing them on a larger basis. In Winnipeg, that is going to be very important
to give people that stability. So that particular issue, I think, is on its way to being addressed. It
will not happen overnight.
With respect to certain issues around nursing shortage, number of nurses in various
facilities, what the right skill sets are, et cetera, rather than try to address things in some ad hoc
manner, last winter I invited the nursing professional bodies together, the regional health
authorities, the Manitoba Nurses' Union to be in the tent as an observer to this process, and I have
charged them with a number of tasks. One is to be able to sort out the professional responsibility
of the various organizations.
The member well knows that there has been an ongoing dispute within the profession
about how LPNs and RNs relate. The irony of it is, in the workplace, they relate very, very well.
But in terms of professional responsibility and turf, who is responsible for what, what is the future
of their training and their role in health care, there has been a large debate between those
organizations over the last number of years. So I wanted that sorted out.
There is enough room, I would suspect, given all the changes in nursing, the four-year
nursing program, the expansion into health care aides where obviously there is a need to
standardized training. There is more than enough room for both nursing organizations to define
their respective roles, define their overlap and how they will handle those roles and get on with
each doing their own thing.
I tell the member, one of my frustrations is that I have seen RNs and LPNs looking at
some of their future needs, overlapping what they do, and it just looked very counterproductive, I
think, to everyone from the outside. So we brought them together in that particular process. I
have had the RHAs, through their Council of Chairs, really drive this process, because what has
been missing I think in the past is that the purchasers of the nursing service have to be driving the
process to say: what do we really need? What are the makeup and the skill sets? How do we
educate people so that they can advance those skills for the ones they need?
The LPN association said to me that many times LPNs are denied a particular work role
because a particular matter is not in their training program. Yet, it only may take a day or two-day course to gain those skills. So we want to see a greater degree of skill-based staffing as
opposed to profession-based staffing. We want those associations to be part of that being put
together. We want the RHAs to drive it and being very clear what kind of staffing needs they
need, how we assess those kinds of things.
It would give us, I think, a far better understanding of where we have to direct more
resources, quite frankly, money, to ensure that facilities and wards and services are properly
staffed, adequately staffed, for the work that they are doing. I am not expecting that to take
forever either, and I do not want any organization to be bogging down that particular process.
Where I see that going, and this comes back to the implementation issue, the next stage, of
course, is to more formalize this process and to ultimately involve the educational organizations in
it.
I see this thing working almost on an annual basis. The RHAs should be able to assess
what their nursing staff needs will be one, two, three, four years out and that in a collective way
be able to give very clear indication to the trainers, educators, as to the number of enrollments
that are required, changes in skill sets, et cetera, in a much more productive way than we have
done in the past. I think within the Ministry of Health we tried to address it without having the
purchasers at the table and in a way that becomes very direct and very much a normal and regular
part.
I want to table for the benefit of the member four letters we have received, one from
Carmel Olson, who is the chair of the Provincial Health Programs and Services Executive
Network on behalf of the regional health authorities; a letter from the Manitoba Association of
Licensed Practical Nurses; a letter from the Registered Psychiatric Nurses' Association of
Manitoba--they are very much a specialty group, but they are important to be in the tent; and, of
course, a letter from the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses, all indicating their
concurrence to be involved in this particular process and as we move forward. I provide those for
the member here today.
* (1600)
Mr. Chomiak: I wonder if the minister might outline what steps are being taken at the central
level to deal with the issue of a retention and attraction of nurses to Manitoba, not dissimilar, I
would suggest, from the situation as it relates to physicians.
Mr. Praznik: Just one addition. The Manitoba Nurses' Union is not a professional body, so this
is really driven by professional bodies and the RHAs. They have been invited to be part of this
process. They have indicated that they will be because they are the union that represents both
LPNs and RNs and others within that system. So they are in the tent. They always will be
welcome to be in the tent, and the essential part of the letters, of course, is because these are the
professional bodies who make the decisions as to professional responsibility.
So that is why there is no letter from the Manitoba Nurses' Union, although I indicate that
they are invited to be, will be, have been part of this process. Their role is somewhat different,
because they represent employment issues and have a different role. I just wanted to flag that
with the member. There is not a bad reason why there is not a letter from the MNU. It was the
professional bodies who were invited to be part of that. MNU is part of it as an observer.
With respect to retention and recruitment issues, we know there are a number of issues
that we can address rather quickly. Job stability becomes very important, and we have asked the
Winnipeg Hospital Authority to investigate and develop within their structures the ability to
eliminate as much as possible the casual, part-time, et cetera, pools, and be able to combine those
in a manner that gives job stability within the pool, you know, on a full-time basis, so you still
have a pool, but it may be the regional health authority who maintains it. Employment is full time
and it might be between one or two or three facilities, whatever works in a practical way. So we
hope that we can eliminate some of that.
We know that having adequate hands-on support at the bedside is part of a better working
relationship, and I suspect a good deal of the issues raised in the MNU report stemmed from the
ability to have enough time to do the job. That is part of one of the things that I am expecting out
of this process is what are the right hands, what are the right expectations of those hands in
providing bedside service.
The other part of this is ensuring that our educational institutions who are training nurses
and the professional bodies are so well tuned to the marketplace, and that is why the RHAs are
leading it, that they can adjust and provide their training opportunities to meet in a much better
way the specific demands that will be there in the system. So I think that goes a long way.
I think the member has heard me make reference on the Mr. Warren's Action Line when
he asked me are we opening up the nursing contract. I have indicated that there are some issues
there that there has been a willingness to discuss with the MNU, and we have had some very
preliminary discussions in that way. So there are a host of things that are ongoing to address the
issues the member has outlined.
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I believe we are making arrangements for another minister to
be in this process. Just prior to that occurring, I wonder if the minister would be able to give me
an update with respect to the issues that the minister acknowledged he was concerned about, as
well as we were, as it relates to the VON and the provision of VON service.
Can the minister give us an update as to what follow-up has taken place and what, if
anything, further the department or the long-term group is going to be undertaking in this regard?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, I am not sure whether or not they have, in fact, settled their labour
dispute. [interjection] They have settled it, yes. I have had a chance to speak with Ken Holland,
who is the chair of the Winnipeg Community and Long Term Care Authority, which is the
contracting party with them. I have spoken as well with their CEO, Marian Suski. I have
indicated to them that because this is somewhat new ground for them, if they believe that helping
with a management team to work with the VON to improve their management skills and their
board skills is something that would be useful that they should feel very free to do that.
He, of course, pointed out to me that that would require, and I am aware of that,
concurrence of the board of the VON to participate in that kind of a process. I think that they
would be very wise to do that, and Mr. Holland assured me that those efforts would be made if
they would be well received. If they do not, and they do not correct their fundamental problems,
and they are not able to deliver service because of that, then I feel no compulsion to renew or
have their contracts renewed if they are not able to provide the service that Manitobans and
Winnipeggers expect.
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, can the minister give us the status of the nursing adviser
position? In the Estimates, the minister indicated that position had not been filled, and the
minister talked about the possibility of that position being filled at the regional level. Can he
update us as to what the status is in that regard?
Mr. Praznik: Because of this huge change in function from Manitoba Health where we are no
longer or very rarely a provider of direct service, the regional health authority is taking over many
of the services we have provided. Because our role as a ministry changes more to policy,
administration of that policy through finance standards check, et cetera, we are in the process of
planning what the Ministry of Health will look like and needs to be to deliver service.
This nursing process that we have embarked on and is kind of fleshing itself out as it goes
and figuring out what it wants to be and what it can do, I am keeping that position open of a
nursing adviser to see how, in fact, if there are support staff required to this process on a regular
basis so that quite frankly the policy advice that I am getting on nursing issues is coming out of
this process of the professional bodies and the RHA and the MNU sitting at a table together.
Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair
So until we see how this kind of works and what it needs, I am keeping that position open
to be able to accommodate that new process. If I were to fill it now, quite frankly, I think it
would be somewhat at odds or maybe at odds under its old form with where we see this process
going with getting people at the table. So once we have a little bit better idea of what skill sets
are going to be needed to accommodate this new process and report back to myself and my
executive in a working relationship manner, then we will be able to adjust that position and skill
sets to meet that need, and then we will fill it.
Ms. Friesen: I wanted to ask the Minister of Health a question that I have asked him in Question
Period, but I was not sure from his answer that the Minister of Health actually understood the
question I was asking. It dealt with Winnipeg No. 1 and community nurses in the schools. The
minister gave me a reply which gave his policy for the whole province, which was not the
question I was asking. I had asked about the lack of an agreement between the Winnipeg Long
Term Care and Community Health Authority and their provision for public health nurses in the
schools.
I think the minister thought that his questions were over. I did actually have another
question for him, and I do not think he has heard the beginning of it. So let me start again, Mr.
Chairman. The issue is a question that I raised with the minister in Question Period. It dealt with
the Winnipeg Long Term Care Authority and public health nurses in the schools in Winnipeg 1.
The minister gave me an answer as to the Minister of Education (Mrs. McIntosh) which dealt
with the provincial policy, but there is a very specific case here for the centre of Winnipeg, for
Winnipeg 1, which did have, unlike all of the surrounding communities, public health nurses in the
schools.
The situation has been in limbo for some time. People have not been assured that they
were going to be able to get the funding to continue that program, so nurses who retired or
moved were not replaced. So what has happened is that, I think as we speak now, the staffing of
public health nurses in the city schools is now at just slightly over half strength, so we were having
teachers being assigned to do what formerly had been medical duties. At the moment it is dealing
with issues of head lice, but clearly it could be more than that, given the staffing and the
uncertainty. My concern is that teachers are not trained to do this and that we have no long-term
plan, publicly at any rate, for the maintenance of public health nurses in the schools.
* (1610)
The minister is aware of the Postl report, of the Healthy Child policies, and I am sure--and
I think he said this in his answer--he is concerned that the schools do play an important part in the
delivery of public health. So now that the minister has the full information, could he give me a
sense of when that agreement is going to be reached, when we can begin to see some stability
return to the public health system of nurses in the schools and if he would give me an assurance
that public health nurses will indeed be returned to the schools of Winnipeg?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, I appreciate the member's question, and I do not take issue with the
intent of it. I guess the only difference one may have--and if I recollect the issue well enough--is
the nurses who were in those inner city schools were employed by Winnipeg School Division No.
1. Is that the case, I ask the member? Yes, I suspect as we see some changes in delivery, I do not
expect that the Winnipeg Long Term Care Authority will be likely funding the school division to
put nurses in schools. Perhaps the member would clarify.
Ms. Friesen: I believe it is an agreement with the public health authorities of Winnipeg and the
Winnipeg No.1 schools. I do not believe it is entirely funded by the schools.
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, I know we are trying to just understand the issue. If I gather from the
member correctly, it is that the current public health services in the schools in Winnipeg are
partially funded from the public health program of the City of Winnipeg, and she is referencing the
amalgamation agreement.
I just look to my assistant. Those are being worked out, I understand, to ensure that there
is a role. It may change somewhat in how it is delivered. It may not be funded necessarily
through the school division. It may be a service that the Winnipeg Long Term Care Authority
provides in the schools, but I would agree wholeheartedly with her. I know the Minister of
Education (Mrs. McIntosh) and we have recognized the need for some of that service.
In rural Manitoba, I know that the public health nurses that used to be employed by the
province and are now with the RHAs provide many of those services in schools. We certainly will
want that to be continued. It may not be continued in the same form in terms of who the
employer is, but I think that agreement is just about done. It is very, very close between the Long
Term Care Authority and the City of Winnipeg to do the transfer service.
The real key point, of course, is that the service be there delivered through the schools.
Particularly, in the inner city in some of our poorest neighbourhoods, that is probably the best
vehicle to deliver that public health, and we certainly recognize that.
Ms. Friesen: The minister says close. Can he give me an assurance that when the schools open
in September, or at the end of August, that system will be in place, that agreement will have been
made?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, I would love to be able to do that. The only thing, of course, is that we
are negotiating with the City of Winnipeg and I do not control both sides of the bargaining table,
but we certainly do not want to see a disruption of service. The whole intent here is to improve
services, so I would love to be able to do that. I continue to put pressure to have it done, and I
will continue to do that. We should have it, and the reasonable expectation should be that it be in
place for the return to school, but, as the member, I am sure, would appreciate, I am not both
parties at the table. There are always things that can happen at City Hall that can put a wrench
into it. I do not want to make a commitment to her in the House today that I do not have the
tools or I am not in a position to fully live up to.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I have some questions for the Minister of Education (Mrs.
McIntosh). I want to ask the Minister of Education--
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, if I may just indulge, I know she has had a number of Health questions.
As the member can appreciate, I have a meeting in my office. If that could conclude, I thank her
for that.
The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): We thank the minister.
Ms. Friesen: I want to ask the minister about the issue of students being asked to pay for the
cost of substitute teachers in the Assiniboine South School Division. I am referring back to an
article in the Metro of Tuesday, April 22, 1997. I know that the minister has written letters on
this, which I have seen copies, but I think that the letters were not as clear as they might have
been.
I wonder if the minister would take advantage of this opportunity of this time we have to
put clearly on the record the position of the government on the requirement for students to pay
for the cost of substitute teachers.
The minister may remember that it dealt with students at Oak Park High School who
received letters from the school asking that members of the boys' basketball team cover the costs
for a replacement teacher to replace the teacher who would be accompanying them. Could the
minister tell us very clearly what the position of the government is on this?
Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): I apologize to the member. I
do not have those letters here. The member has indicated that I have received some letters that
she has seen, but I do not know which ones she is referring to. If she has them there, I would be
pleased to take a look at them because I know I did indicate at one point the member had asked a
question and there was an article in Metro One that said user fees were being charged for students
to pay substitutes in schools.
Of course, no school division can charge parents for instruction. Certainly, throughout
history, the member knows very well, as does the system, that user fees have been charged for
field trips and those kinds of things forever in school divisions. What is not illegal was the money
that was charged, I think, for a field trip in Assiniboine South, I believe it was, for students who
went on a field trip out of town, and they had to pay a fee to go on the field trip. Part of that fee
went to cover a lot of expenses that the school incurred because the students were going on a
field trip. Some of that then went to pay a substitute that come in. That is not illegal because the
fee was collected for the purpose of the field trip.
I do not have those letters here. The member referred to me receiving several letters. I do
not recall receiving several letters on it, but the member says she has them or has seen them.
Perhaps she could provide those to me. Then I could give a more clear answer based on those. I
did receive, I think, two letters on the topic based on the newspaper article, and then, of course,
questions that the member had raised, but it was not expressed as a general concern by the people.
User fees have always been in place. School divisions cannot charge for instruction, but it
is not illegal to redirect some of the funds that are used for field trips to substitute costs when the
regular teacher is still with the class in the field on that trip.
Ms. Friesen: I understand what the minister is saying about what Oak Park High School did
because the fund is not illegal, because the funds were received, or at least were given indirectly
to pay for the instruction and not directly. So it would be illegal if a school division asked
students to pay directly, but if they ask for it indirectly, then it is legal. Is that what the minister is
saying?
* (1620)
Mrs. McIntosh: No, that is not what I am saying. I am talking about specific events, such as
particular kinds of field trips where the regular classroom, the instructional teacher, is with the
students of her class in one location who maybe also has some other students back at the school.
The cost of the field trip, I understand that Assiniboine South, well, perhaps you could say that
they did not use the money for the substitute then, that they used it for the cost of the field trip
and their own money for the substitute. But out of the money that was collected for the field trip,
there were certain expenses. One of the expenses of the field trip was the cost of a substitute
teacher.
We have had occasions in the past where teachers have gone on field trips with students to
France or to Israel. Substitutes are brought in for that purpose to teach the remaining students
when the teacher is away. School divisions do not charge the parents for that, and it is not a
common practice.
Ms. Friesen: Let me try again. Is the minister saying that what Oak Park High School did in
asking students to pay the cost of a substitute teacher is legal?
Mr. Chairperson in the Chair
Mrs. McIntosh: The member is going to have to refresh my memory. Again, I have asked, she
has referred to this issue as emanating from some letters that I apparently received that she has
seen, and a subsequent article in the paper upon which she asked me a question in the House.
If that is the incident she is referring to--and I do not know that it is because all she is
saying to me here is that Oak Park High charged students to pay a substitute--if the incident she is
referring to specifically is the one that we responded to at the time through the department, we
checked it out and determined through legal counsel there had been no violation of The Public
Schools Act. If that is the incident that she is referring to, then, no, there was no violation of The
Public Schools Act. If she is referring to some other incident, I would have to know the details of
it because, to my knowledge, other incidents of that sort have not been brought to my attention.
Ms. Friesen: I was referring to the April 22, 1997--I think I read that into the record--issue of
the Metro which talked about Oak Park High School, letters dated December 17, 1996, and
February 13, 1997, according to the newspaper report, and the boys' basketball team was asked to
cover the cost which included the teacher's substitute fees. I do not think I said actually letters
that were written to the minister. We will have to check the record on that. I certainly did not
intend to say that.
What I did say was letters that the minister had written on this were not clear and, in fact,
were very similar to the first answer the minister gave today. No, this is not dealing with any
additional issues. It is dealing with that original issue. The minister said that she had a legal
opinion on this, and I wonder if she would be prepared to table this.
Mrs. McIntosh: I would have to call legal counsel in. It was a verbal thing, but we could get
them if the member wants, bring in the legal counsel to reiterate the opinion they provided me. It
was not in writing.
I thank the member for clarifying that because I did not recall receiving letters on the
topic. I do recall the incident. I believe it was around the date the member mentioned because it
was spring, but I do not have my materials here with me to look at my response which, at the time
it was written, indicated that the Assiniboine South School Division had not contravened any
funding rules or The Public Schools Act. I thought at the time that the letter was fairly clear. It
seemed to have answered the question for the people to whom it was written. They seemed to
understand it, as did other observers.
I do not have a copy of that letter here, and, again, I ask if the member could provide it
since it is the subject of her concern. I could take a look and perhaps clarify what is not clear to
her, although it was clear to the people to whom I wrote and to others who had read it. It said
that the Assiniboine South School Division had not contravened The Public Schools Act by
charging user fees, taking the total expense of the trip and using it to offset the costs that they
incurred for that particular field trip.
Ms. Friesen: Would the minister be prepared to table the written legal report that she could
obtain from her legal counsel? I do not think it is normal practice to bring legal counsel into the
House. The Chair is shaking his head. I do not think that is possible. So I think the way for us to
receive that would be for the minister to request legal counsel to draft a brief note on this that
refers to the sections of The Public Schools Act on which he or she is basing the opinion. Would
the minister be prepared to do that?
Mrs. McIntosh: I can certainly have our legal counsel proffer a written opinion. The member
wanted a report? How many pages? Legal counsel has provided us a verbal opinion at the time.
We did not request it in writing because lawyers, as the member knows, are very expensive, but if
she would like us to spend that money that way to clarify for her the contents of a letter that were
clear to all the other readers, we would be pleased to do that. Again, if she would be good
enough to provide me a copy of the letter which she is referring to here in the House, I could
perhaps clarify it for her myself by reading it and finding out which sentence is not perfectly clear.
The letter states: Assiniboine South did not contravene The Public Schools Act. That
sounds pretty clear to me. It was clear to them, it was clear to me, it is not clear to the member,
and she has now asked that we have legal counsel prepare a report for her rather than accept their
verbal opinion. Of course, we will do that because my staff has spent a great deal of time this
session doing research for the NDP's questions and for the NDP's policies. We are here to serve,
and I guess if the NDP wants to use our legal counsel as their researcher, far be it for me to argue.
I will have him reiterate in language that is more understandable the language that is already in the
letter that she has.
I think it is a bit redundant, but I can understand she is having trouble understanding, and I
will do that for her. When would she like it? Shall I have legal counsel--
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, what I am asking for is some substantiation of what the minister believes
is the interpretation of The Public Schools Act. I do not think anybody used the word "report"
except the minister. I believe the record will show that I asked for a brief statement from the
lawyer giving the sections of The Public Schools Act which he or she is interpreting, a
substantiation of what the minister believes to be a nonviolation of The Public Schools Act. It
may well be.
I am not a lawyer and neither is the minister, but she has had legal advice. The minister
refers to the cost of legal advice. I understand that the government does have Legislative
Counsel. I asked for a brief statement, and I asked for a substantiation of work that has already
been done for the minister.
Mrs. McIntosh: I am pleased the member clarified that all she needs--excuse me. [interjection]
That is interesting. I can see you are really concentrating on the content of this exchange
here. Well, I am pleased to see that the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) is so interested in
the topic we are discussing since he is busy talking about something completely different.
But I understand the member now would just like a brief paragraph or two saying the
sections of the act--if the member would like to listen, I am trying to get some clarification
whether this is what she is seeking. Perhaps if I could get her attention, or maybe I should wait
until she is ready to listen. I would like to get her indication if what I am interpreting is correct.
But she is busy in conversation now, so I will give the request. Maybe she can read Hansard and
let me know tomorrow. I understand that the--
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please.
Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Chairperson, on a point of order, the member for
Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) is listening to the answer. There is no requirement that she has to look at
the minister. She is listening, and I am sure she will have another question if the minister ever
gets around to answering the previous question.
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. It is
clearly a dispute over the facts.
* * *
Mr. Chairperson: The honourable minister, to conclude her response.
Mrs. McIntosh: Thank you, and, of course, I do not need the member to look at me; I just need
her to stop talking to other people, unless she is one of those gifted people that can talk and listen
simultaneously. [interjection] She is very talented that way, the member for Burrows (Mr.
Martindale) calls across the floor.
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Could I ask honourable members to refrain from what I call a
little fishing expedition. I think if we get back to answering the questions and dealing with the
questions that are asked rather than searching for something that might cause a little bit of
disruption in the committee, I think we might go a little further. The honourable minister, to
conclude her remarks.
Mrs. McIntosh: The member has asked me to expend some money and time to address a
concern that is in writing very clearly for her. This is not a fishing expedition. I am trying to
ascertain just how far the member wishes me to go, beyond what has already been done for her.
So I understand she would like a paragraph or two indicating--
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please.
* (1630)
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, the minister is putting words into my mouth. I did not ask her to
spend money. I asked her to provide the legal opinion, which has already been given to her.
And, Mr. Chairman, if you could direct the minister to deal with the issues on the table, I
think we would get on much better in this House.
Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for Wolseley does not have a point of order. It is
clearly a dispute over the facts.
* * *
Mr. Chairperson: The honourable minister, to answer the question.
Mrs. McIntosh: The member then would request a simple paragraph or two from legal counsel
to verify what I have already told her, that The Public Schools Act says Assiniboine South is not
in violation.
So I have said that, I have written that, and she now wants a lawyer to write it, as well, so
that it can be credible. I will certainly do that for her. That, of course, does necessitate a call to
the lawyer again, and, Mr. Chairman, the member surely knows that lawyers do not work for free,
but maybe she does not. So I will do that and provide that to the House as quickly as I can.
That information, by the way--the member is correct--has already been given, and she did
state in her question both times that the information has already been given to the minister
verbally, written, transmitted to the field, provided to her and released to the public. But we will
do it again because when it comes from the lawyer, it will be credible to her and not any other
way, and I want it to be credible.
Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Mr. Chair, earlier in the session, several parents whose
children attend alternative programs were I think disappointed and chagrined when the minister
referred to them as yesterday's parents, or yesterday's people--my memory does not quite serve
me, but, anyway, either of those terms.
As the MLA for a constituency where several alternative programs take place in local
schools, I did have some concerned parents calling me, and I wonder if the minister would like to
clarify for the record exactly what she meant when she referred to these parents as yesterday's
parents.
Mrs. McIntosh: This question was asked in Question Period by the same member and was
answered in Question Period. The answer does appear in Hansard, but if the member wants to
ask it a second time, I am pleased to answer it a second time. But let the record show that the
same answer will be found in Hansard from Question Period. So, again, I will provide
information that has already been provided to help them understand the first answer which maybe
was not very clear, I do not know, but this information is the same.
The alternative parents have a program whereby students are not necessarily going
through one grade at a time. I believe the member knows because in her first question to me
during Question Period, she identified herself, I believe, as an alternative--that her children had
gone through the program. So I think she is familiar with the program which would perhaps
mean I do not have to explain the program to her, although I am quite willing to do that.
In no way, shape or form are standards tests contradictory to or not complementary with
the alternative program, and in being asked a question about this issue by the reporter, the
member has taken a quote out of context, as a stand-alone quote, and believes it is referring to the
program or to the parents themselves, when, in fact, it is referring to the fact that denying people
the opportunity to have standards tests diagnosis is to condemn them to becoming yesterday's
people and is not preparing them well for the future. So--[interjection] I will maybe wait till they
are ready to listen, because there is no point answering if no one is listening.
Ms. McGifford: On a point of order, I was sitting in my seat listening intently to the minister. I
know that she feels that she has the right to control public schools and dictate who can be on and
off stage, but, Mr. Chair, I think that you saw me sitting in my seat, listening to the minister. So
for the minister to suggest that I was not listening I think is an insult. It is not true, and I want to
correct the record.
Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over
the facts.
* * *
Ms. McGifford: Well, fact or not fact, the point is that I was here, I was listening to the
minister, and I do not know how the minister can put such misinformation, clear misinformation,
on the record. No, the minister does not have to describe to me the alternative program, as I do
have a child who went through the alternative program--perhaps I should not say went through; it
sounds like cruel and unusual punishment--who was educated in the alternative program and
enjoyed it thoroughly. The reason I have to ask the question again is quite clearly because this
minister never provides any answers, so that we keep trying to get information. We keep trying
to get her to answer. I think today that I am finally beginning to understand, and perhaps the
minister could provide a bit more information.
My understanding, then, is the minister was not referring to the parents as yesterday's
people but was suggesting that students who do not have the benefit--and "benefit" is the
minister's word--of standardized diagnostic testing will grow up to be yesterday's children. I
guess the minister means by this that these children will not be employable or will not be able to
participate in the marketplace. Perhaps the minister could provide a little bit of clarification on
this point.
Mrs. McIntosh: I believe if the member wants to reread Hansard from the day she asked her
question in the House, she will get the clarification that she seeks. I will indicate to her that the
alternative program is a perfectly good program that is respected and fits the bill very well for
many people. We have no objection to the alternative program. In fact, for many people it is the
best program, and people choose that for a variety of reasons.
The very nature of the alternative program makes it ideal for a standards test, because
children are not necessarily at the end of the year finishing curriculum at the same pace. So
therefore it is a very good program to use a standards test to measure progress. It is a diagnostic
test. It is an enhancement to the other kinds of assessment that are done during the year.
In talking about the conversation which the member is fixated upon here, the member
needs to understand that it is my--
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Could I ask the honourable members who want to carry on
such a conversation to do so in the loge rather than across the way. It is interrupting with my
ability to hear what is going on here. Thank you. The honourable minister, to conclude.
Mrs. McIntosh: It is my understanding and belief that a person who believes that standards tests
do not fit in with an alternative program, the very alternative program the member is referring to,
the one at Laura Secord School, for example, standards tests are a perfect augmentation to that
program. People who do not understand that either (a) have never been through the standards
test process and therefore do not understand how it could connect with any program, and it could
be a particular benefit with this one, because it is purely diagnostic.
So the attitude that they have towards testing is yesterday's attitude because the
information that was provided to me, which I presume would be correct because it has come from
parents from that program who wrote to me at the time and said standards tests are, and then
described a very inaccurate picture of a standards test based upon their belief that a standards test,
the type we administer today, is like the old standardized tests that used to be done in the '60s and
'70s, and, of course, that is not true.
* (1640)
So I had parents saying in their letters to me that standardized tests--calling them
"standardized" instead of "standards"--measured the teacher, forced children to conform and be
all the same, did a whole series of other things that are just absolutely wrong. The standardized
tests of yesteryear that you used to buy off the shelf were like that, but the standards tests of
today are not like that.
So the attitude towards the test was a past attitude, an attitude that was prevalent
yesterday not today. The attitude towards the test was yesterday's attitude described to me, in
writing, by people who clearly had a very confused picture of what a standards test is really all
about and what it is attempting to achieve. It also showed a very clear misunderstanding of how
the student profiles were used; again, yesterday's attitude, not prepared for the future, not relevant
to today. That was the one part of the reference to seeing things as they were in the past as
opposed to how they really are in reality today.
It was nothing against the alternative program, nothing against the parents of the students
in the alternative program and nothing against the students in the alternative program. It had
everything to do with a misconception of what standards tests were all about, what they were
designed to achieve, how well they fit into particular programs of education because current
understandings were missing. The understandings were yesterday's not today's, and the
preparation for the future for the children then would be based upon impressions of yesterday
rather than a preparation for the future in terms of assessment, in terms of diagnosis, in terms of
student profiles.
The alternative program, of all programs, is one where a standards test would be ideally
understood by the teachers of the alternative program. I have parents who are going to say to me
that the teachers would not know what to do with an alternative test or the test in an alternative
program, and I think that is wrong. I think the teachers in that program would have a better idea
than most because they are assessing on individualized-type education programs all along. They
are doing constant assessing with students at different levels of learning with differentiated
instruction, differentiated teaching, learning at the child's pace, not completely perhaps, but more
closely attuned than a grade-by-grade way.
So they are in a perfect position to take a student profile which says John needs some
extra work on spatial relations. This showed up in question 2. Here is where his gaps are and
here is what needs to be done to strengthen them, or Susan has done extremely well in her
understanding of patterns and the early stages of probability, because those questions are there,
and they can say Susan does understand the early understandings of probability and you can build
on that strength to accelerate her at her own pace, because she has shown that she is advanced in
that area.
The standards test for Grade 3 is particularly ideally suited to the alternative program,
because it also has the ability to identify those students who have reached beyond the Grade 3
standard. In reaching beyond the Grade 3 standard, the alternative education teacher then can
identify those students who can be moved into areas of deeper understanding at a more rapid
pace. These are excellent diagnostic tools.
When I say "yesterday's"--and I am talking about attitudes, understandings, perceptions,
patterns of behaviour--and I talk about the tests from yesterday that you used to buy off the shelf
and give and they were standardized tests, and I compare them to these standards tests, the
member will have to agree these are good tests. They are good tests, excellent, and they have
been praised as such. They are prepared by practicing Manitoba math teachers.
If the member wishes to imply that the tests are bad or not relevant, then the member, if
that is what she is implying, that standards tests have no place in the classroom because they are
not in the best interests of students, if there is an implication in there that the test itself is bad, as
was in some of the letters I got from the parents in the alternative program, then she is saying that
those practicing Manitoba mathematics teachers who prepared them do not know what they are
doing, and I believe they do. They are master teachers.
The framework for the Grade 3 mathematics curriculum was prepared again by master
teachers from provinces across the west. British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba,
Yukon, and Northwest Territories developed the outcomes and framework upon which our Grade
3 curriculum is based and upon which those tests are written. They are curriculum congruent
with those outcomes.
Those outcomes are outcomes that students in the alternative program should have no
trouble achieving. They should have no trouble achieving them if their work is being done well in
the alternative program. They should be able to do this test with no problem, and it is not
traumatic for them if the adults in their lives do not wish it to be traumatic for them.
Again, I come back to the member wanting me to explain what I meant about yesterday.
Yesterday is an era when tests were surrounded with a pass/fail mentality. When I took my senior
high, I wrote my exams, 100 percent pass/fail departmental exam. We are not doing that
anymore. The test was not based necessarily upon my understandings as much as it was on the
drill. The language arts exam, for example, was not based so much upon literacy as it was upon
whether or not you had memorized well a portion of a speech from The Merchant of Venice. A
good thing to memorize, a good speech, I remember it still, but it was not a literacy test the way
today's is. So today we are measuring, because the people of Manitoba have asked to have
measurable standards. They have asked very clearly and overwhelmingly and indicated their
support for measurable standards.
I have had students where the adults in their lives have a different attitude from the one
displayed by the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford) and those parents who wrote to me from
the alternative program. I have had students write to me saying: I had one whole class write to
me. The teacher had them write about the Grade 3 test and send me their remarks. I got the
tests, I got these letters, and the students wrote things like: Dear Mrs. McIntosh: My favourite
question was question number such and such. I really liked that question because it was in the
quiz book my grandpa gave me for Christmas. Those kinds of things.
* (1650)
So the attitudes of those students towards the test was not that it was something to be
feared and traumatized over, it was, oh, today we are going to do the types of things we do in
some of these mind-puzzler quiz books that kids get for Christmas from their grandpas. Those
questions can be fun, and they are fun. The member should sit down and do the Grade 3 test. I
invite her to do that. She will find that it is a lot of fun to do. If it is approached with the right
attitude, that today we are going to do a test, we are going to see how much we can remember of
the things we have learned, there will be some questions in there that will be fun to do, and when
you are done, we will see how well you have been able to learn these things and what more you
need to learn to carry on. Those are very good things to have happen, not bad things.
But if the adults in a child's life say to the child repeatedly day in and day out for two
months, you are going to write a test, it is going to be terrifying, if you fail your life will fall apart
and you are going to be sick every morning, guaranteed the child will live up to those
expectations. So it is, again, which is the attitude for today and which is the attitude for
yesterday.
In terms of preparation for the future for the child now--I am just waiting until she is
listening.
An Honourable Member: You have a long wait, because I gave up listening a long time ago.
Mrs. McIntosh: Well, okay, the member has said I have got a long wait because she gave up
listening a long time ago. She asked for a detailed response to a question that she said I had not
given enough detail on in earlier times. She said I did not give enough detail to my answer in
Question Period. She wanted a detailed answer today, so she can clearly understand what I meant
by yesterday versus tomorrow. I am trying to give her that because when I talk about yesterday,
it is a very big thing I am talking about, she does not want the answer she asked for, and she is
yelling from her seat something or other.
Does she or does she not want to have an intelligent dialogue about standards tests, what
they are all about, why they are different from yesterday, and how they apply to tomorrow?
Because I still now would like to talk about the children, and how standards tests apply to them in
terms of preparing them to be tomorrow's people rather than leaving them behind as yesterday's
people. If she does not want the answer, and it does cost $10,000 a day to run this Chamber,
then I will sit down and we can save the taxpayers some money.
Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, on a point of order. I would like to refer the Chair to 46.(2)
Decorum in Debate, which concludes a discussion about disrespectful or offensive language
against any member thereof, and I would contend that this minister is using disrespectful
language. So this is not a dispute over the facts. I think there is a rule that covers this, and I
would ask you to request the minister to answer the questions rather than to attack members on
this side. Thank you.
Mr. Chairperson: The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order.
Mr. McCrae: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I commend the honourable member for Burrows on the
research he has done with respect to the rules of the House. I think that it can be an extremely
subjective matter if one happens to be one side of the House or the other, depending from which
direction the alleged disrespect emanates.
So, I think, what we have here is a situation where we will have a discussion going on
about an issue, and as happens from time to time in legislatures right across our country, indeed in
parliaments and legislatures going right back to the Mother of Parliament at Westminster, I
suggest that debate often gets to a point, sometimes on a warm afternoon in a legislative
Chamber, where members perceive a lack of respect, or sometimes that flows from a perceived
lack of respect coming from the other side. Who is really to judge at the end of it all as to
whether indeed these events give rise to the matters complained of by the honourable member for
Burrows?
My reason for rising is not to take so much issue with the honourable member for
Burrows (Mr. Martindale) in raising his point of order, but perhaps to ask you, Mr. Chairman, to,
of course, consider the matter raised by the honourable member for Burrows but in the context of
where are we and at what particular period of time are we there and look at the matter with the
backdrop of all of the contributing factors that go into the consideration of such a point raised by
the honourable member for Burrows.
By that I mean here we are at the 17th day of June, in 1998, some people, and I know
when I return to my constituency on the weekends--I am trying to provide some help for Your
Honour in arriving at a decision with respect to the point raised, and this is relevant, Mr.
Chairman. I go to my constituency, and first they want to know, well, is the House sitting and
how are things down in Ottawa these days? This happens sometimes, forgetting momentarily, of
course, that I work here at the Legislature in Winnipeg, but the key point here is, is that
Legislature even sitting? Some people--
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. You cannot raise a point of order on a point of order, but
could I ask--[interjection] I have stopped him for one second anyway. [interjection] Order, please.
No, you cannot raise a point of order right now, but I will let you up in a minute.
The honourable minister, I would like to thank you for your presentation. I have heard
enough on the point of order.
The honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) did not have a point of order.
There are times in the House that we sometimes start to use words that drag us a little heavier
into the debate than we tend to want to get to, but I do think that we as members should reflect
on the words that we choose, as the Minister of Agriculture once said. Those words can
sometimes drag us a little further into debate than we care to travel down that road.
So if I could ask members of both sides to choose their words very carefully as we are
entering further into debate, I would appreciate it to aid the decorum of the Chamber.
* * *
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister of Education, during Estimates, the minister had
agreed to table the teachers' comments on the marking of the standard exams, and she has not yet
done so. I wonder if the minister could tell me when she intends to table those comments.
Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, yes, I did absolutely commit myself to tabling the comments that
the teachers made on how much they valued marking the examinations. The assistant deputy
minister, Carolyn Loeppky, was gathering those from the archives to have them all typed up on a
sheet, so that they would not be revealing the teachers' handwriting. They should be ready--I had
thought they might be ready by now, but I will check when I go back to my office to find out
when we can expect to bring them in, and if they are not completed, I will submit the ones that are
completed. But there were, as you know, many, many thousands of comments, and so it takes a
long time to transcribe them all. I will submit either a full or a partial list before the session is
completed, as promised.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, as the minister is aware, I had not anticipated that they would be
transcribed. I thought I was looking for the archival documents. Of course, I had offered to
come and read them at the archives, but the minister, I gather, has decided to transcribe them and
to present them in that format. I could assure the minister that I am not familiar with the
handwriting of any teacher, nor would--[interjection] Well, the minister says from her seat that
that was decided in Estimates, and the transcribing and typing of them I do not believe was. A
transcribed document is not the same as an archival document, and it was not simply what I had
expected.
I would like to ask the minister what her plans are for the Scurfield report. I gather that
consultations have been continuing. I would like to ask the minister what kind of consultations
she has done, the range of people who she has asked for written reports from and when she
anticipates that process will be complete, and what she anticipates the next step will be.
* (1700)
Mr. Chairperson: When this committee meets again, the minister can answer the question at
that time.
The hour now being five o'clock, time for private members' hour. Committee rise. Call in
the Speaker.
Committee Report
Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has
adopted a certain resolution regarding Capital Supply, directs me to report the same and asks
leave to sit again.
I move, seconded by the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the
report of the committee be received.
Motion agreed to.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
Madam Speaker: The hour being 5 p.m., time for private members' hour.
Proposed Resolutions. Resolution No. 41.
Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, I believe there was agreement to go to
bills today in private members' hour. You could solicit the House on that.
Madam Speaker: Agreed? [agreed]
Bill 201--The Crime Victims' Bill of Rights and Consequential Amendments Act
Madam Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr.
Mackintosh), Bill 201 (The Crime Victims' Bill of Rights and Consequential Amendments Act;
Loi sur la déclaration des droits des victimes d'actes criminels et modifications corrélatives),
standing in the name of the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau). Is there leave
to permit the bill to remain standing? Yes?
Some Honourable Members: Yes.
Madam Speaker: Leave has been granted.
On the proposed motion of the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), Bill 203,
The Legislative Assembly Amendment Act (2) (Loi no 2 modifiant la Loi sur l'Assemblée
législative), standing in the name of the honourable member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer). Is there
leave to permit the bill to remain standing?
Mr. Doug Martindale (Deputy Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, on House
business, if we could just reverse the order and do the graffiti bill first and then the elected
Speaker bill, if we have leave from the government House leader to do it that way.
Madam Speaker: Is there leave now to revert to second readings, public bills, and then revert to
debate on second readings, public bills?
Some Honourable Members: Agreed.
Madam Speaker: Leave has been granted.
Bill 204--The Graffiti Control and Consequential Amendments Act
Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): I move, seconded by the member for Osborne (Ms.
McGifford), that Bill 204, The Graffiti Control and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi sur la
lutte contre les graffitis et modifications corrélatives, be now read a second time and referred to a
committee of this House.
Motion presented.
Mr. Mackintosh: We are asking the Legislature to agree in principle to this legislation. The
challenge of dealing with graffiti has become greater over the last number of years, and that is not
only in my estimation but in the estimation of others that I hear from and speak to. I also rely on
people who devote their careers to dealing with the challenge of such behaviour as graffiti
offenders, including Constable Shawn Matthews of the City of Winnipeg police department. He is
reported as saying that there has been a definite increase in the cases of graffiti in the last two or
three years.
There is no doubt that graffiti is no longer confined to the Kilroy-was-here type of writing
on walls. Graffiti now, in the last two or three years, has become largely of two types, first of all,
tagging and, second of all, gang graffiti. Gang graffiti, in particular, is a real threat to the
community, but all kinds of graffiti are not simply of concern because they are unsightly or
because of esthetic concerns. Graffiti of all types is an attack on the community's sense of
ownership of neighbourhoods and an attack on the community's right to be free from the fear of
crime.
I want to just quote from Winnipeg Police Services Chief Cassels, who is quoted in the
Winnipeg Sun of June 20 as saying: There is far too much of it. Graffiti not only affects business,
it affects how people feel about their neighbourhoods. Graffiti increases the fear of crime more
than crime itself, end of the quote.
Madam Speaker, when you go through a neighbourhood that has graffiti throughout it put
there by gang members, it was put there because the gang wants to identify that particular
neighbourhood as the gang's turf. It is critical that Manitobans stand up and say: that is not gang
turf, that is our turf, that is the community's turf. We have to ask: who are we going to have own
this town? Well, we own this town, and it is time to get serious about this attack on our
communities and sense of safety.
There has developed recently, particularly in New York City and now spreading
throughout North America, a philosophy called the broken-windows theory. That philosophy
holds that it is important to deal with some lifestyle crimes, to deal with issues like graffiti which
once were thought of as minor misdemeanours and something that has been virtually
decriminalized. It is important that the community reassert its ownership and control of
neighbourhoods to prevent the further decay of communities and the proliferation of more serious
crimes.
Constable Shawn Matthews himself is quoted, again in the Sun, that is August 27, as
saying: People do not realize that when graffiti shows up, oftentimes other crimes like violence
and drugs will then follow.
Well, Madam Speaker, there is also another dimension to the problem of graffiti, and that
is its cost to the community and to individual property owners. The City of Winnipeg says that
last year they spent about $2 million removing graffiti. I suspect that that refers only to the cost
of removing graffiti from City of Winnipeg property, and indeed I know that not all of the
property that has been covered with graffiti has been restored in the last year. So that I think is a
very conservative figure.
We know that School Division No. 1 last year spent $72,000 removing graffiti from
schools and other buildings in the school division. I look at that figure and I think, well, is that
not enough to cover the salaries of about two teachers?
Madam Speaker, there is also a real burden on homeowners for covering up or removing
graffiti. I know and I hear from individuals who are afraid to remove graffiti. Whether it is tagger
graffiti or gang graffiti, they cannot discern the difference, and they believe that if they remove the
graffiti, there will be some retaliation.
Solutions are needed and the first thing that has to be done is, of course, there has to be an
effective graffiti removal program. Studies south of the border, in particular, have shown that the
faster graffiti is removed, the higher the likelihood that graffiti will not reappear on that surface.
* (1710)
It is also important that we try and prevent graffiti in the first place, so to that end we
announced an antigraffiti plan on September 17. As part of that plan, we urged the government
to endorse our plan, which we called Operation Cover-up, as well as introduce deterrent
legislation. Well, nine months later we do see the province now contributing to an antigraffiti or
cover-up campaign in the city of Winnipeg, and I am pleased with that. I hope that
announcements and the pressure that we have brought to bear were helpful to the government in
coming to conclude that it was important that they help fund municipal campaigns to rid the
province of graffiti, at least in terms of a cover-up program.
But nine months later the government still has not moved on deterrent legislation. We
have heard, for example, of different kinds of responses to graffiti all around North America.
Even in this city I have noticed that Councillor Amaro Silva was pushing the idea of limiting the
sale of spray paint in the city, but our research of jurisdictions south of the border indicates that
that has very limited success. We know from studies done that about 90 percent of graffiti
offenders are teenagers. We also know that, in terms of consequences, only about 5 percent of
offenders are required to perform restitution.
Now, Madam Speaker, it is very important, in our view, that the victim be placed front
and centre in any legislative scheme to deal with graffiti. In no way should, as it is happening in
other jurisdictions, the victim be required by law to remove the graffiti. To us that is again
victimizing a victim. We believe that, like in the city of Chicago, graffiti removal be a public
service, no different than other streets and operations projects.
But we cannot always talk about covering up graffiti or removing graffiti without dealing
with the real challenge, and that is how to prevent graffiti in the first place. This bill that is before
the House provides, we believe, a significant deterrent to would-be graffiti offenders. The
legislation proposes that an offender immediately be required to remove or cover up graffiti on
pleading guilty, and that cover-up must happen within 72 hours. We believe there should be a
minimum fine of $500, mandatory restitution for the victim, and not less than 50 hours of
community service. To speak strongly to teenagers in particular, we believe that there should be a
suspension of drivers' licences, in the event of a conviction, of one year, and five years on a
subsequent conviction. As well, the legislation provides for parental responsibility where payment
is not made for restitution by the offender.
Now, it is important, we believe, that legislation not simply allow the discretion that is
now allowed to prosecutors and judges to deal with graffiti. We think that there should be a clear
direction to our prosecutors and judges that this matter is serious. We want a strong message
sent out so that would-be graffiti offenders will think twice, and so that the cost of putting up
graffiti far outweighs that one moment of satisfaction or whatever it is to the graffiti offender.
Now, Madam Speaker, currently the law in Canada to deal with graffiti is under the
Criminal Code, and the only place that graffiti offences fit has been mischief. Well, the mischief
charge does not speak to graffiti. It does not speak to the victims of graffiti. It does not target
the appropriate responses that are necessary according to people across this continent to
effectively counter the challenge of graffiti. Within the jurisdiction of the province under property
and civil rights and indeed in municipalities, antigraffiti legislation can be passed. We believe that
the province has jurisdiction to enact this kind of legislation. This is not penal legislation. It is
restorative in nature. It is victim oriented, and we say that particularly given the fact that the
Criminal Code does not so much as mention graffiti in it at all.
So, Madam Speaker, the government, I am sure, has had the time over the last nine
months to consider our proposals as they were unveiled in September. I am sure, with the
resources available to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) in particular, that they have studied our
detailed recommendation to the government for this kind of deterrent legislation.
The legislation that is being brought in today mirrors the promise that we made in
September to bring forward legislation and the urgings on this government to consider this kind of
law.
So today we urge the government, particularly the Minister of Justice, to consider this
legislation in the spirit that it is offered. If the government has concerns about the provisions, if
for example it believes that some of the provisions are too harsh, if they believe that some of the
provisions may cause constitutional challenges, I say: let us discuss that.
I look forward to the government bringing forward any suggestions for improvement to
the bill, any amendments, but I say: let us work in a co-operative way to deal with this challenge,
let us pass Canada's first antigraffiti legislation, let us make a strong statement that this town is
owned by its neighbourhoods and communities, that Manitobans believe and deserve to have the
wrongdoing of graffiti elevated by this kind of legislation so that there are serious consequences
and so that victims of graffiti will be restored to the position they were in before the wrongdoing
and so that we can prevent graffiti in the first place.
Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I am
deciding not to speak on this issue at this particular time.
Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Madam Speaker, I will be very brief. I have not had an
opportunity to see the legislation that the honourable member is bringing forward yet. I am
looking forward to studying it very closely, but I am interested in the fact that last year they
brought forward the issue of Operation Cover-up, as they called it, because back in 1993 and '92,
we in St. Norbert, with Take Pride Winnipeg, started that Operation Cover-up when we started
going through our community, with the support of the City of Winnipeg and the Province of
Manitoba, covering up all of the graffiti.
We had the schools involved and some of the taggers who had actually done the initial
work were involved in doing some of the cleanup, involved in the restitution. We felt that the
proper thing for those offenders to do was to work on the projects that they had done in the
community, which did not exactly improve the way the community looked.
Madam Speaker, I must say that the new work that they have put in place within my
community, a number of those paintings are very nice murals. I think they have done some
fantastic work, and I would like to say thank you to Take Pride Winnipeg, St. Norbert Collegiate,
Fort Richmond Collegiate, and those children who were involved in correcting one of the
inequities of just a few. I do think that when we reflect on the children of today's society, in some
cases we seem to put the blame on all of them.
It is very few of them that are doing this. When we look at the taggers that are out there,
you will notice a lot of those signatures are the same. Those are the ones we have to work on.
The member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) is right. Those are the offenders and the repeat
offenders that we have to go after.
* (1720)
I understood that the Criminal Code covered those off. I would like to take a closer look
at that, because the taggers who go out and repeat offend, we do have to have some way to
reflect upon them. The education that we are attempting to do with some of them is not working,
and we do have to have some recourse for those few, and I do mean very few that are out there.
I do not know if we have to bring in this type of legislation though for the small amount
that are really out there. I do not think there is a dramatic amount of them. I think if we can
catch those ones within the existing laws that we have today within our country, I think we just
might have a case to be made. I do agree with the member though that we have to do something
with the gang members who are going out and repeat offending. I do think that we have to take a
look at what type of restitution they can bring forward.
But there is a problem with the restitution, because some of these so-called offenders or
some of these offenders do not have the money, do not even have home addresses. I think that is
probably the reason why they are doing what they are doing. It is an acting out that we do not
agree with, it is a lack of supervision, it is a lack of parenting, and that is something that our
government, again, is taking care of. It is something that our government is attacking and has
been working towards, and now because we have resolved the issue of bringing a balanced
budget, we are able to attack some of those social deficits that we have today. We are able to
attack those now because this government took the steps that were necessary.
Madam Speaker, I think that if we can give pride back to our children and give pride back
to Manitobans and the people of Winnipeg, we will go a lot longer than passing legislation that is
just--[interjection] I am sorry. I will wind up there. I could go on and on, but I would like to give
the opportunity to the member for Osborne.
Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, I thank the member for St. Norbert for his
courtesy, as well as for his remarks. I understand from his remarks or I imply from his remarks
that he will certainly be supporting this legislation. I am also pleased to join the member for St.
Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) and very proud to have seconded his motion.
I think we all understand that this is a provincial-wide issue, but the member for St. Johns
having laid out the general parameters of the issue allows me to deal in specifics. So, as the MLA
for Osborne, today I want to speak about my constituency because Osborne has been seriously
defaced by taggers, and business people and citizens in Osborne are frustrated and very anxious to
see some legislation and to have change.
Anyone who knows my constituency knows that it is dominated by Osborne Street, that
Osborne moves north and south in the constituency, and I can assure members that there is graffiti
everywhere you turn on Osborne. This morning, I spent some time driving along back lanes and
looking at businesses, so I suppose I need to correct something because this morning what I
discovered rather than graffiti was a recent cover-up. In the south end of Osborne, business
owners have taken up the paint and painted white squares over graffiti. However, they told me
when I contacted and spoke with people this morning, that they know that this is only temporary.
In fact, Madam Speaker, when I saw these white squares on buildings, I had a sinking feeling that
they might be interpreted as available canvases, canvases in the sense of places there waiting to be
painted on.
I notice the same thing in the north end of the constituency, and when I contacted the
Osborne Village business owners, they told me that they found that the City of Winnipeg's
program was working fairly well, and here I refer to the 986-1234 number. However, we all
know that there are limitations on this program. For one thing, there are only three colours of
paint, beige, white and gray, and, of course, this is not necessarily suitable for all buildings. If a
business owner needs another colour, apparently they can get a $15 certificate on the paint. So
that helps to some extent, Madam Speaker.
However, both the business owners that I spoke to, both those in Osborne Village and
those in the south end of my constituency, agreed that we needed legislation, that we needed to
prevent graffiti rather than merely cover up once it happens.
I want to make the point here that business owners in Osborne, both in the south and
north, are very serious citizens and have made very important contributions to our communities
and certainly have been very active in doing things about graffiti. In the northern area of our
constituency, the Osborne Village BIZ, as I said, is a very progressive business organization. It is
a group that has always supported alternative employment programs for youth; they have always
supported the reassessment and augmentation of social programs and health programs. They
have worked very closely with Macdonald Youth Services, and they have been generous with
their donations to Macdonald Youth Services.
Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair
Mr. Deputy Speaker, really, Osborne Village business people have helped make the village
what it is today, that is a sound business district and certainly, I think, a tourist attraction,
especially to people from outside the province but very attractive to Winnipeggers too. My point
is that these people are very strong community people. They have made efforts in the community.
They have worked very hard to create safety in the community; they have worked very hard to
create the perception of safety in the community. As the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh)
has told us, graffiti relates both to safety and to the perception of safety. As I said earlier, there is
a growing sense of frustration in my communities, both north and south.
When I spoke with the Osborne South BIZ this morning, in particular with Barb Gerrie,
she told me that her business association was spending between $4,000 and $4,400 a year on the
removal of graffiti. She noted and her business associates have noticed that this is a huge increase
in the number of taggings, and that it has become a severe problem in the south end of Osborne
since 1997. She noted that graffiti was appearing in even very difficult-to-reach places.
In addition to this $4,400 that was being spent, she pointed out that individual business
owners were paying additional sums as their buildings required special treatment. For example,
the question of matching colours and also the question of cleaning brick. Now the Osborne South
BIZ people might recover a portion of $4,400 from The Green Team, but the estimates still are
that these business owners pay about $2,000 in benefits like CPP and I suppose UI--EU, I think it
is now called--and also in extra hours used to cover the graffiti. Clearly this is not right and
should not be allowed to continue.
Of course, it is not only the businesses in Osborne that are defaced by graffiti. Mr. Deputy
Speaker, our schools, our community centres and individual homes are defaced by graffiti. For
example, the person who lives immediately behind me moved from a community that was
considered a high-risk community into Osborne, believing that in Osborne the home would be
safe. This individual constructed a new garage, and no sooner was the garage up and painted,
that it was immediately tagged, and tagged in a highly despicable way.
One of the things that I have noticed in my community at the corner store, which is four
houses from me, the store being on Osborne, is a whole raft of nasty, racist comments and nasty
homophobic comments, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I suppose this is slightly different from tagging,
and it is soon covered up, but it is something that occurs.
* (1730)
I think there are taggers who pride themselves on their artistry. I think we agree that
beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but people in Osborne agree almost to a person that our
businesses, community centres, schools, bridges, and other public structures--I just want to
interrupt myself to say the St. Vital Bridge, which is at the end of Osborne, is particularly defaced.
It is unsightly, unpleasant--does nothing for the community at all. Anyway, to get back to my list:
homes and apartments, I think people in Osborne agree to a person that these are not canvases for
taggers; and, as the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) pointed out, this tagging is not only
unsightly, but it really is an attack on property.
The member for St. Johns spoke about taking back the community, and he spoke about
the importance of community ownership. I know that, as a woman and as a feminist, I have
participated in annual Take Back the Night events, usually a parade, and I think it has been very
empowering for the women's community. The idea of taking back the community and having
ownership over the community, I think, is something that would be empowering to our citizens.
As it is, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the people to whom I spoke have talked about their growing
sense of frustration. They have talked about their growing sense of anger. They have talked
about the fact that, as far as they can see, nothing is happening. They have no confidence that the
issue of graffiti is being taken seriously and regarded as the offence that it is. And it is an offence.
I am sure members in this House all agree.
To return just briefly to the issue about safety and graffiti, when I was speaking to a few
constituents this morning, I learned that there is a feeling in the south part of Osborne that some
of the graffiti on our walls and buildings indicates that gang activity is prevalent. Now, Mr.
Deputy Speaker, I am certainly not an expert on the difference between taggers and gang-related
graffiti, but what I found interesting here was that there is a perception out there then that there is
gang activity and gang-related graffiti. I do not know whether it exists, in fact, or not, but, as the
member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) pointed out, and as I reiterate, the perception is real and
the perception scares people. I think the member for St. Johns quoted from Police Chief Cassels
to this effect.
Certainly graffiti in all areas intimidates, and I want to particularly cite here the Osborne
Village area because it is an area of high-density housing, high-density population, and there are
many seniors living in that area. I can go into many seniors blocks in the Osborne Village area,
and almost to a person the seniors will tell me they are intimidated, they are nervous about going
out on the street. Certainly graffiti is not the only reason for this, but graffiti is one of the reasons
for this. The seniors are intimidated.
There is agreement in my constituency that deterrents are needed, furthermore that the
province has some responsibility to enact legislation in this matter. The Winnipeg Public Works
line might handle the problem once the problem is there. I think we have already indicated it does
not totally handle the problem and not to everybody's satisfaction, and that is not to put any blame
on the Winnipeg Public Works line. It is just to indicate that there are limitations. Nonetheless,
to return to the idea of deterrents, my constituents agree that deterrents and consequences are
necessary.
My community agrees, and agrees on the penalties that were set forth in the bill. I have
certainly sent the bill to business owners, discussed it with other constituents. The member for St.
Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) has reviewed the penalties, which, of course, only apply when an
individual is found guilty, but I have been told by my constituents that they are tired of this issue
not being taken seriously. They are tired of mere slaps on their wrists. They support the removal
of graffiti. They support the fine of not less than $500. They support an order for the payment of
restitution. They support an order to perform not less than 50 hours of community services, and
they really like the idea that, when an individual is found guilty of drawing graffiti on the wall,
some of that community service--the bulk of the community service--should be spent in the
removal of graffiti.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I move, seconded by the member for Portage la Prairie (Mr.
Faurschou), that debate be adjourned.
Motion agreed to.
DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS--PUBLIC BILLS
Bill 203--The Legislative Assembly Amendment Act (2)
Mr. Deputy Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable member for Thompson (Mr.
Ashton), Bill 203, The Legislative Assembly Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant la Loi sur
l'Assemblée législative, standing in the name of the honourable member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer).
Is there leave that this matter remain standing? Leave? Stand.
Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak on Bill 203,
The Legislative Assembly Amendment Act. This is not the first time that I have spoken on this
private member's bill, and it probably will not be the last time, since this government has no
intention of bringing in legislative changes so that we can have an elected Speaker. I believe the
Premier is on record as saying he will do it after the next election, which, in my view, means that
it will probably be an NDP government that will bring in legislation to bring in an elected Speaker.
I would like to begin by giving a rationale for an elected Speaker. I think the most
important feature of an elected Speaker would be to give the Speaker the impartiality of the
support of all sides of the House by way of a secret ballot that an election would give to an
elected Speaker. This is part of Beauchesne's in discussion about the role of the Speaker in the
House of Commons. Beauchesne says: "The chief characteristics attached to the office of
Speaker in the House of Commons are authority and impartiality. As a symbol of the authority of
the House, he is accompanied by the Mace which is carried before him by the Sergeant-at-Arms
and is placed upon the Table when he is in the Chair." It goes on to say that "Confidence in the
impartiality of the Speaker is an indispensable condition of the successful working of procedure,
and many conventions exist which have as their object, not only to ensure the impartiality of the
Speaker but, also, to ensure that his impartiality is generally recognized."
Now, I think we are in this position today of asking for legislation to have an elected
Speaker in the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba for two reasons: one, being that almost every
other province in Canada has moved to an elected Speaker. In fact, I think we are just playing
catchup here. Nova Scotia recently moved to an elected Speaker, and I believe that discussions
are underway in Quebec to have an elected Speaker, so we may be the last, or one of the last, to
change the rules of our House. Secondly, we on this side feel very strongly that we have not had
an impartial Speaker in this Chamber, and, regrettably, I say we have several times introduced
motions of censure on the existing Speaker. So we believe that there is a need for change in this
Legislature and a change to an elected Speaker, which would give impartiality.
* (1740)
It is very interesting to read about the evolution of the Office of Speaker and the different
methods that have been suggested to have an elected Speaker over the years. In fact, I found
very interesting research papers, and I thank the Legislative Library for digging some of them up.
I was pleasantly surprised to find a paper which is titled The Speakership of the Canadian House
of Commons: Some Proposals, a paper prepared for the Special Committee on Procedure and
Organization, and it was prepared by Denis Smith, an assistant professor of politics at Trent
University. In fact, he was one of my professors at Trent University.
I had a rather short career there. I was quite successful in politics and history, but not
quite so successful in other courses, hence, my short career as a student at Trent University. But
I remember Mr. Denis Smith quite well, so I was pleasantly surprised to find this very interesting
paper.
He has a summary of his recommendations on how the Speaker should be chosen. In fact,
it does not have to do so much about an elected Speaker as a permanent Speaker. It is rather
interesting. I would just like to summarize and comment briefly on some of his recommendations.
He begins by proposing that the Chair be nominated by a government backbencher and
seconded by an opposition backbencher, and then the Speaker, once elected to the Chair, should
normally be re-elected to the Chair, without opposition, at the commencement of each Parliament.
Thereafter, the party should make a co-operative and determined attempt to arrange for the
acclamation of the incumbent Speaker in his constituency the next and each subsequent general
election.
That is basically the British model where for many decades the Speaker's election in his or
her constituency was not contested, I believe, with one exception in 1935, if memory serves me
correctly. The idea was that once the individual had the confidence of the House of Commons in
Westminister that this person, as long as they maintained that confidence, were re-elected
unopposed by agreement of political parties.
Mr. Smith goes on to say that after that a special constituency of Parliament Hill should be
created in this Canadian model for which the electors would be the members of the House of
Commons and the member would be the Speaker of the House of Commons. So this proposal
then was that once the Speaker was elected and had the support and confidence of the House that
Parliament would create the new seat.
In this case, the person would be the member for Parliament Hill and thereby would have
independence, would no longer be connected to a party, that would be my understanding, and
would continue to get re-elected as the member for the House of Commons as long as he or she
maintained the confidence of the House, a rather interesting proposal and one which died on the
vine, although it was put forward by a number of people over the years, including the late member
for Winnipeg North Centre, Stanley Knowles.
If memory serves me correctly, he was offered the position of Speaker in the House of
Commons and he declined. I do not know the reasons for that. It would be rather interesting to
find out the reasons for that. I suspect that he declined because he wanted to continue to be able
to represent his constituents by speaking in Parliament, and certainly that is one of the, I believe it
is one of the more restrictive parts or roles of being a Speaker, and that is the inability to speak in
debate, and I think it is something that must be rather frustrating from time to time.
When I first came here, I thought that the position of Speaker looked like an attractive
position. However, I think it would be quite contrary for me, given that I campaigned on being a
strong voice for Burrows, to then become the Speaker. In fact, I am no longer interested in that
position. I believe it is very important for me, especially representing so many poor people in the
north end of Winnipeg, to have the ability to speak out frequently and strongly on their behalf in
the Chamber, which is something that the Speaker, under current practice and tradition, cannot
do.
One of the former Speakers of this House, Mr. Jim Walding, conducted a survey of his
constituents, and the results are rather interesting. I am sure he is remembered well by some
people who have been here for many years. His questionnaire was about the Speaker. I happen
to have a copy of it, and it is quite fascinating. He sent out a questionnaire to his constituents and
he got 311 replies, which he said was more replies than he got to other surveys that he did.
His first question was: as a constituent do you feel it is an asset or a liability to be
represented in the Legislature by the Speaker? He had a scale, and on the left it was definitely an
asset and on the right was definitely a liability. There were more people saying that it was a
liability. So I think even his constituents recognized that electing someone as Speaker means that
they may feel not as well represented in this Chamber.
He asked: how important is it that the Speaker be impartial in the legislative Chamber?
By a vast majority, people said it is very important that the Speaker be impartial. And then he
asked a series of questions. To what extent should the Speaker attend political party social
events, attend political party meetings, conventions, et cetera, attend political party caucus
meetings, donate personal funds to a political party? The responses were fairly evenly split until it
got down to attend political party caucus meetings, and then a majority said the Speaker should
not. Similarly with donating funds to a political party, more people said they should not than
should.
Then there were questions about whether or not people felt more represented or less
represented by different people occupying different offices in the Chamber. For example, a
government backbencher, an opposition backbencher, an independent, a cabinet minister, and the
Speaker, the largest percentage of his constituents said that they felt they would be given a more
serious hearing by a cabinet minister. The least category, at 35 percent, was an opposition
backbencher, a rather odd category, given that we are all private members in opposition. Then
there were some questions about bell ringing, but I would be getting off topic to read those into
the record, although they are equally interesting.
So, just to summarize, I have talked about the rationale for an elected Speaker, mainly that
we need someone who is impartial, and we on this side have not felt that we had an impartial
Speaker in this Legislature--I believe this is the Thirty-sixth Legislature. Looking at the bill, I
cannot speak on clause by clause, although it is a very brief bill, but our private member's bill says
that it would be by secret ballot, and then we would follow the rules of the House of Commons in
the standing orders. I think it would be beneficial for the government to pass legislation before
the next election, because it might preclude certain problems that may arise. For example, if we
followed our current procedure in the absence of legislation until a bill could be passed, even if it
was passed on the second day, imagine if the Premier stands up and nominates someone and a
member from the other side nominates a second person and then the Clerk is in charge.
What does the Clerk do? The Clerk could not rule on points of order. What if there was
no agreed-upon procedure? Would it be by secret ballot? Would it be by people standing in their
place and voting, and who would decide? I mean, we could have a very chaotic situation in this
Legislature in the absence of a bill, and I think we should pass this bill as expeditiously as
possible. We should pass it today. We should have a procedure in place before the next election.
We should not have to wait for the next election. We should not have to wait for a change in
government to an NDP government to have an elected Speaker. We could solve the problem of
the confidence of the Speaker immediately.
In fact, I know of three people on the government side who have expressed an interest in
being Speaker, and a couple of people on our side have been suggested as well. So, with those
few comments, I am going to wind up to allow other people to speak on this important topic.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
* (1750)
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Well, the Whips might be off today. Members
opposite may be able to for once vote with their constituents, vote for the people, vote for the
future. I was just hopeful that we could have a little bit of democracy in this Chamber that is
supposed to represent democracy. You know, hope springs eternal on this side of House, those
of us who believe that the winds of democracy should start blowing through this august Chamber.
I wanted that to start today. We are very disappointed that we see the kind of stonewalling old-think of members opposite and their subservient caucus members to the whips and chains of
oppression that are held by the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and his coterie of few staff for members
opposite.
I want members opposite to throw off the yokes, the chains--the yokes of oppression and
the chains of antidemocracy--that are holding them back. You know, the member for Gimli could
stand up today and say: I have got a change in conscience. I am going to take the chains off
finally, and I am going to vote for elected Speaker in the Chamber here. Why not? What have
you got to lose? What is he going to do, take away the House leader's job from you? What is
more important--being the government House--not the House leader's job, the Whip's job--to
you? What is more important, the Whip's job or democracy in this Chamber? Of course,
obviously, we see by the silence across the way that after 10 years the perks of these offices are
more important than the people of this province. I regret that. I regret that, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Now, on the substance of this bill, we are now right there with Brian Tobin,
Newfoundland, to be racing to be in last place of who is going to be the last province in Canada
to have an elected Speaker. Now I remember the days of Manitoba when we were first. We were
first with an Ombudsman in this country. We were one of the first provinces to establish a Human
Rights Commission. We were one of the first provinces to have processes to electoral boundary
commissions that were brought in by D.L. Campbell. We have been ahead. We have had a
tradition of being ahead. Where were we with the vote for women? One of the first jurisdictions
that looked to bring in a vote for women, right here in Manitoba.
Now what we have is a Conservative government. You know, their vision of the future is
the Bennett buggies of the past. They do not have the future of their children and our
grandchildren in mind. This group is unwilling and unable to pass legislation such as an elected
Speaker. Why are they opposed to it? What have they got to fear? Why not have all members of
this House mark their secret ballot on the basis of who amongst us has the credibility and respect
and skills--dare I say it--skills to be in the Chair on all of our behalf, because the fundamental
principle of the Speaker is that that individual is supposed to represent all 57 constituencies
equally. That is why we have moved from a system of patronage Speakers that is handed out
sometimes as a preference to a member of the government side, sometimes as a consolation prize
for failure to get into cabinet, but it has been handed out by the Premier of the day.
We know that Nova Scotia just had an election for Speaker to take place in the province,
and, you know, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Acting Speaker--and you may well be the elected Speaker. I
am not trying to entice you with my speech, but you never know. Any one of the 57 of us could
receive that nod, including me or excluding me, because one would have to decide whether to run
or not, and I might not have the--
An Honourable Member: Premiers do not run.
Mr. Doer: Premiers do not run. Well, he already controls the Chair. Why would he want to
run? He has got both jobs now, right? He has got both jobs. Why would somebody with both
jobs want to just take one of them?
An Honourable Member: And you could be so impartial.
Mr. Doer: I could be. But in Nova Scotia they just had an election, and regrettably Nova Scotia
went down in history as the seventh province to bring in an elected Speaker, and our opportunity
just moved down one more slot in history with the kind of drifting, antidemocratic views of
members opposite, and Nova Scotia just had an election for the Speaker.
Now, what happened in that election? The Premier of the province, Mr. MacLellan, put
forward a candidate. I do not believe the New Democratic Party put forward a candidate. There
are a lot of new members to that caucus, a huge number of new members to that caucus, I might
point out, a massive number of new members to that caucus, and the Tory party in Nova Scotia
put forward a--they did not put forward a candidate, a Conservative ran. Do you know what
happened? A Conservative MLA in Nova Scotia won the election. They are now the Speaker of
the Nova Scotia Chamber. But more importantly than the job, they have the respect of all the
members because they were tried in a democratic process and elected by their peers to be the
individual that will protect the integrity of the office to move forward in Nova Scotia.
Now, some of these provinces in Atlantic Canada have actually been perceived and
portrayed as provinces with more patronage traditions than provinces in western Canada, in a
historical sense. So I find it strange that Manitoba is going to be the last province in western
Canada to have an elected Speaker and only probably will come about, regrettably, when an NDP
government is elected shortly, when the next election is called, and we will bring in an elected
Speaker.
I do not know who is going to win the job. Hopefully some of you will still be remaining,
maybe just a few of you, after the next election, and you might well win that job because you have
the respect, the integrity, and the skills to do the job. Would that not be a wonderful thing, a
Speaker on the basis of merit, decided by peers, rather than the old ideas, the old-think of a
Speaker nominated on the basis of patronage.
So I was hoping that we would just come to an agreement right here. We have the power
now to do what we want by leave. We have the power now by leave to say we are going to do it.
We are going to just do it. We are going to pass this bill at second reading. Why not have the
courage of your convictions over there? Why not the small but relevant group in this Chamber
take a step into the future and have an elected Speaker by passing this bill?
Thank you very, very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: As previously agreed, this matter will remain standing in the name of the
honourable member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer).
Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Shall we call it six o'clock?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Shall we call it six o'clock? [agreed] The hour being six o'clock, this
House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until tomorrow (Thursday) at 10 a.m.