We are on Resolution 16.4. Support to Schools (a) Schools Finance (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits.
Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Chairman, I was just concluding last day with a response to the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) about Transcona Collegiate, and if I may I will just finish that response so he has it for the record.
I want to say to the member for Transcona that while I want to respond to all his questions, we have to be mindful that negotiations between the school division and the Public Schools Finance Board are still ongoing. There are a few remaining issues that require thoughtful discussions, and I am hopeful that the assessment process will be finalized in the next six weeks or so. But I do just want to put that caution forward, because the Public Schools Finance Board and the Department of Education are at arm's length from each other.
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For the most part, the Public Schools Finance Board and the school division have agreed on most of the program and space requirements at Transcona Collegiate. There are two major matters that need to be finalized. One of them is that the school division requests the space for industrial arts and human ecology family studies programs.
The Public Schools Finance Board is waiting for the provincial specialist, Program Implementation Branch, to make his recommendation which will then be reviewed with the school division. Secondly, this project will consist of renovations and new space. The Public Schools Finance Board and the school division are to determine which program should be housed in the additional component of the project. It is very likely that the band, music and multipurpose room will be accommodated in the new section because these spaces require higher ceilings.
Once these program and space requirements are finalized and the assessment process is completed, a recommendation from the Public Schools Finance Board will then come to the Minister of Education. Authorizing the school division to proceed with planning authority is the first step of the approval process, and the target completion date of this project is September in the year 2000.
Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Chairman, I wanted to move away from the Public Schools Finance section, but I think the minister had earlier wanted to put some comments on the record on Wolseley School, so I did not want to miss that, but this will be the last question, I think, on the last area under Public Schools Finance Board.
Mrs. McIntosh: Yes, Mr. Chairman, regarding the Wolseley School situation, the Public Schools Finance Board authorized the Winnipeg School Division in January of 1998 to hire a consultant to do a condition study of the Wolseley School. The school division hired the services of Reid, Crowther, which completed its report last month, April 1998.
The school division will now be sharing the results of that report with the parents of children who attend Wolseley School. Following consultation with these parents, the school division will decide on what recommendations to make to the Public Schools Finance Board. There are three options that they can consider: renovations, addition or replacement. Once the school division determines which option it wishes to pursue, the Public Schools Finance Board will formally assess the division's recommendations and provide its advice to the minister. There are three options: renovations and new space and replacement. If renovations costs significantly, if those costs exceed 50 percent of new construction costs, the Public Schools Finance Board normally recommends replacement.
Heritage designation should not be a problem because there are other similar schools, such as Sir Sam Steele, for example, but this is a matter that will have to be resolved between the school division and the City of Winnipeg.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask the minister about private school funding under this section. I wonder if the minister would be prepared to table, I do not know whether she has it available now, but whether she could table a list for the past year and, if possible, for the previous three years of the school--the enrollment and the amount of public money that has gone to each of the schools.
Mrs. McIntosh: Would the member be good enough to repeat? We missed part of her question.
Ms. Friesen: Yes, I am looking for a list of the private schools which have been funded by the government over the past three years, the amount which has been given to each school, and the enrollment of each school, and I assume the minister would not have that for three years with her. If she has the material for one year with her, which might be possible, I would be interested in having that tabled. Other than that, we could look forward at a later date to the tabling of the three-year information.
Mrs. McIntosh: Yes, we have that information. We have it for all three years here, so we can table it. We will need to get some copies made, but we can provide that for the member. Can we get copies made here, Mr. Chairman? We are giving to the Clerk now the last three years: '97-98, '96-97 and '95-96. We have the Estimates for the '98. Did the member want those also?
Ms. Friesen: Yes, thank you.
Mr. Chairman, while those are being xeroxed, perhaps we could ask some short questions on the recording of information on private schools. I wonder if the minister could tell me about the reports that are given to her or to this section of the department by private schools. The financial statements, for example, are these published in any way or made public or does the government intend to make these public?
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Mrs. McIntosh: There is now a FRAME Report for independent schools, as the member knows. It was mailed out in March to all the independent schools and to the libraries, and it is available for anybody who asks for it.
Ms. Friesen: The FRAME Report is a compilation of material from the reports of the schools. Does the minister intend to make public the actual financial reports of the schools?
Mrs. McIntosh: We have made public the FRAME Report for independent schools which lists their finances as it regards the public, but we do not reveal the private aspects of the funding. For example, you may have a family that has made an endowment to a school. They wish to be kept confidential or they do not wish to receive any credit. So they will often do that, and they will say: just, please, keep it anonymous or confidential; we do not want to be in the limelight, whatever.
So since independent schools are not funded totally and fully by the public purse but raise the bulk of their money through private means, then we do not make public the private part. This report then is slightly different from that FRAME Report for public schools, because for the public schools, all the money comes from the public, so there is full revelation of everything.
With the independent schools, not even half of their costs come from the public, but the FRAME Report we have got for independent schools will interest the public in that it talks about public dollars, but it does not include the private dollars.
Ms. Friesen: The minister's response, I think, points to the very problem I was getting at. We do not know what proportion the public funding is of the total amount available to the private schools.
Mrs. McIntosh: It is in here.
Ms. Friesen: It is in the FRAME Report? Thank you.
Mrs. McIntosh: That is in the FRAME Report for independent schools. As well, I think it is generally known that we fund independent schools to half of the cost of running public schools. So, even if it were not in the FRAME Report, which it is, it would be easy to extrapolate just knowing that. You just have to know what the public school costs are and take half of that, but not including the capital, of course, because we do not pay for buildings for independent schools. I do not know what page it is on.
Mr. Chairman, on page 7 in the FRAME Report for independent schools, it has the amount--the provincial government Department of Education and Training--funded to the independent schools, which includes funding for instruction and services and suggested for days closed, et cetera. At the beginning of the report we have the expenditures. So one could compare the expenditures with the funding.
At the beginning it is Operating Fund Expenditures by School, Total Expenditures and Costs Per Pupil, Enrollments, Head Count and the Eligible as of September 30, the Pupil-Teacher Ratios as of September 30, the Consolidated Expenditures, the By School Analysis of Expenditure by Function, the By School Summary of Provincial Government Department of Education and Training Operating Fund Revenue. The operating fund expenses, as I said, are by school, by total expenditures and cost per pupil. So you find all of that information detailed in this report.
Ms. Friesen: I think it is useful to have that on the record because I do not have it with me, and I thank the minister for putting that on the record. It is certainly something, I think, that the Manitoba Association of School Trustees have had resolutions about for a number of years, so that kind of public information, I think, is and will be welcomed.
I wanted to ask the minister, an issue dealing with I guess it is procedures and public policy in private schools. I wanted to ask her to compare them to those in the public schools, and I am going from a particular article in the Winnipeg Sun on the weekend, which dealt with an issue of unprofessional conduct--I guess that is it. I do not want to get into the individual case, by any means, but issues have been raised on public policy, of how such issues of whether or not there is unprofessional conduct, the question, the allegation, of how those are raised in private schools, what the responsibility of the department is, where the lines of communication are or should be in informing the teacher certification branch or the minister or another provincial authority.
Could the minister perhaps explain to me what the department's policy has been on that, not necessarily in this particular case but in general, and perhaps tell me whether there is any difference between the procedures in a private school and the procedures in the public system?
Mrs. McIntosh: The procedures for teachers in those situations are identical.
Ms. Friesen: Could the minister be a bit more precise in what the procedures are?
Mrs. McIntosh: In terms of professional misconduct, if a teacher in Manitoba is alleged to have professional misconduct, the person in authority--principal or whoever--must inform the Professional Certification office and the minister of the alleged misconduct. If a child is in need of protection because of professional misconduct or alleged professional misconduct, they must also notify the law enforcement officials, Family Services, Department of Education, et cetera.
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Ms. Friesen: What is the formal next step? Let us suppose that the Professional Certification branch and the minister have been notified. What steps does the minister then take, and what steps does the Certification branch take?
Mrs. McIntosh: We would do our own investigation, we being through the Professional Certification office, and in the course of that investigation the following are likely to be contacted, in most cases would be. The Crown could be contacted; Family Services, if children need to be sheltered; and ultimately, depending upon the outcome of that investigation, obviously begin by talking to the concerned parties. After, there may be charges pressed by the Crown. When that happens, then it immediately goes into the law enforcement, into the justice area. Ultimately, these investigations will often lead to the Certificate Review Committee, which will determine and make a recommendation as to whether or not the teaching certification should actually be lifted.
Ms. Friesen: The minister said two people must be informed, the Professional Certification branch and the minister, but essentially the minister acts then through the Professional Certification branch. I wonder if the minister could tell me something about the investigation. Are there procedures laid down for the investigation? Is it different in each case?
The minister said, for example, that certain people are likely to be contacted. I can understand that will be different with each case and, under an investigation, that concerned parties would be contacted. Essentially, are there a set of regulations and procedures that are followed in any such case by the Certification branch, or is it essentially a set of principles from which each case would be dealt with separately? Mr. Chairman, are there regulations dealing on this, and could the minister direct me to the regulations and the act which this comes under?
Mrs. McIntosh: The portion of our procedures that are in regulation are the procedures dealing with the certification of the Certificate Review Committee. The other, we have principles that we follow and practice that we have in place, but it is not in the form of a regulation. First, we receive the complaint, and it may sometimes come to us as an indirect or informal complaint. It may not be a direct contact, but however it comes to us, the minute we receive the complaint, we begin an investigation. We always begin by contacting the employer. We may, depending upon the circumstances of the allegations, contact Child and Family Services or the police if it is a case, say, of alleged child abuse of some sort. Eventually, in the process, we contact the alleged perpetrator, and we may but do not always contact the alleged victim depending again on the circumstances.
After those processes have been gone through, we will ultimately then have a decision as to whether or not to refer to the Certificate Review Committee. At that point, the investigation becomes formal, and we have a quasi-judicial tribunal taking over once it is referred to the Certificate Review Committee. That is basically the process that we go through. We have tried to allow as much flexibility as possible because some of these cases are extremely sensitive. They involve children or adolescents and sometimes false accusations and people's careers are at stake, et cetera. So we have got as much flexibility as we can get, but those basic principles are ones that are adhered to in all our investigations. It may not always go to the Certificate Review Committee if it is determined that the allegation was not a correct one.
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Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to go back to something the minister either said or implied early on, and that is that the principal or the responsible person must inform the minister and/or the Professional Certification branch. Can the minister be more precise on that, or did I understand it correctly that there is an onus upon a responsible person within the school to inform the minister once allegations are made?
Mrs. McIntosh: The Public Schools Act requires the employer to report a teacher charged or convicted of sexual abuse of children to the minister, so that is one requirement. Sexual abuse of children, charged or convicted, the PSA says that it must be reported to the minister. This also applies, of course, to funded private schools as well. That is a condition of receiving funding. They have to abide by all those things, but there is no legal requirement to report on other alleged situations that do not necessarily involve children's safety.
The department did issue a sort of guidelines on this reporting of those. In essence, we said if there is a bona fide perceived relationship between the situation and teaching, the department be notified. So that is basically what they have to do.
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Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, the minister says that under this--the conditions of receiving public money require the private schools or independent schools to conduct themselves according to The Public Schools Act. Now, is that the case in all elements of The Public Schools Act, or is it just in this particular element, that is, Part I?
My second question is: the guidelines that the minister distributed on issues dealing outside of sexual abuse, but dealing with classroom issues and unprofessional conduct in the classroom, when where those guidelines sent out? Could the minister table them either today or at a later time?
Mrs. McIntosh: For the most part, all sections of The Public Schools Act and The Education and Administration Act apply to funded, independent schools, except for a very few. The guidelines--we will be able to table those, but we do not have them here today--were issued four or five years ago, but we can obtain them and table them at our next sitting. There are a few, as I said, except for a few that we look at, trusteeship, for example, hiring secretary-treasurers or a superintendent, that type of thing, but the guideline sections do apply to funded, independent schools as well as funded public schools.
Ms. Friesen: I wonder if the minister could, for purposes of clarification, explain which parts of both of those acts do not apply to private schools. Secondly, could you give me a sense of what the guidelines consisted of? I understand we will be seeing the details and I appreciate that, but could the minister tell me what topics they dealt with and how the guidelines explained the requirement, if it is a requirement, for reporting of, let us say, unusual or questionable situations regarding teaching?
Mrs. McIntosh: This will take us a minute or two. Staff is checking through the book because the information goes back a fair bit, but they do believe they have everything here. They can provide some detail if you would just bear with us while they check.
We have said that all sections of The Public Schools Act and The Education Administration Act apply, except for those that cannot comply because of the nature of their operation. For example, they may not have a board of trustees. They may not have wards, so they cannot be broken into wards and have elections for trustees. If they do not have a secretary treasurer, then certain applicable sections do not apply, et cetera, et cetera. If you are forming or altering school divisions, if you are a Francophone school division, school boards, duties of school boards--Frontier is a good example of a board that is in remote locations but not all in one place--superintendent, secretary treasurer, school sites and buildings, collective bargaining, grants and levies, which is educational support program, and borrowing, the administration of schools is often in unorganized regions or territories, so say all of these sections, except where for some reason it is inconvenient or difficult to comply with the nature of the operation.
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There was another question: what did the guidelines touch on? The guidelines touch on the nature of possible offences that ought to be reported by law and to whom. Guidelines are only a general request for schools and admission boards to supply the department with information when a teacher or other personnel is charged or convicted of offences with which they have a bona fide relationship to teaching and the custody of the children. For example, drug trafficking is one that we had there. There are more, but staff has provided these as an answer for the member to give her a picture, if she would like one, of how we operate.
Getting back to the first question, which was grants to private schools, the minister may, under the regulations, make grants to private schools in respect of instruction and services offered where the minister is satisfied that--and this is something that requires the minister to be diligent. The minister may, under the regulations, make grants to a private school in respect of instruction and services offered by the private school to students enrolled therein--the student has to be going there--where the minister is satisfied that the private school teaches a sufficient number of courses approved under The Education Administration Act to ensure that children enrolled in the private school receive an education of a standard equivalent to that received by children in public schools; that the teachers teaching the approved courses to the children enrolled in the private school hold valid and subsisting teaching certificates issued under The Ed Admin Act; that the Department of Education has approved the core curriculum of the school; that the private board has a legally incorporated board of directors; that the private school has an elected advisory board that includes at least three persons who are parents or guardians of children enrolled in that school.
Manitoba regulations require that the school submit a statement certified by the school's signing officer and principal that the requirements of The Education Administration Act, The Public Schools Act, and regulations have been met; provide a list of all peoples attending the school in a form approved by the minister by the date specified by the minister; comply with required sections of the administrative handbook, only making modifications to reflect unique religious perspectives, cultural objectives or values of the school with the approval of the minister; appoint an auditor and advise the minister of the auditor's name and address when the auditor is appointed and whenever there is a change in auditors; submit audited financial statements not later than October 31, which include both an audit report and a supplementary audit report for the immediately preceding school year in a form approved by the minister; submit a record of final academic standing achieved by each student in Senior 1 to 4 for the preceding school year no later than September 1 of the current school year; and operate in compliance with all education regulations, including, but not limited to, school days, hours of vacations regulation 101/95, private schools grants regulation 236/96, persons having care in charge of pupils regulation 464/88, education administration miscellaneous provisions regulation 468/88, and teaching certificates and qualifications regulation 515/88.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, could the minister tell me whether the relatively new sections of one of the acts--and I cannot remember which one it is--which dealt with records management and requirements for the students and parents to look at records--and I think there was some discussion at the time as to whether this applied to private schools or not--can the minister tell me whether--and I think she said at the time that those would be extended to private schools. Could the minister tell me whether that has happened?
Mrs. McIntosh: Yes, it does apply.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, were those extensions made by regulation or was there explicit recognition in the act that this included private schools, or was that not needed? Was it meant to include private schools?
Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, they are automatically included unless they are specifically excluded, and they are not specifically excluded.
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Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, let me try and summarize what I think I understand of the procedures. I understand, No. 1, that under The Public Schools Act employers are required to inform the minister, both in public and private schools, when there are allegations of sexual abuse. Secondly, other issues of professional misconduct may be raised by a variety of people, not necessarily the person in charge, whether it is a principal or a superintendent, and that that applies equally in the public or private schools.
But, when other issues of professional misconduct are raised with the department, by whomever, this triggers an informal review by the department which may proceed to referral to a quasi-judicial body, and that guidelines were issued to all schools in Manitoba about four or five years ago dealing with other issues. Now, what I took down from what the minister said of the other issues, the implication I think is that those issues I raised with the minister only when charges are laid or may be laid, whether the issue is a chargeable one.
So is that the impression the minister intended to leave, or is there a broader range of issues that the guidelines covered four or five years ago?
Mrs. McIntosh: If there is a charge or a conviction under the Criminal Code, the minister has to be informed. If it is an allegation only, and it is one of sexual or physical abuse of a child, that must be reported to a person in authority in Child and Family Services. If other allegations of any sort surface, there is no legal requirement for reporting, but our guidelines in so many words instructed compliance to report to the minister if, as, when any situation arises which a reasonable person could perceive as placing the care or custody of a child or the safety of a staffperson of the school in the school in jeopardy.
There are certain situations where it is an absolute imperative that reporting be done and others where the guidelines are such that compliance is the result. Then people have occasions when they have to exercise their own good judgment as to whether or not they are hearing a rumour or perhaps some allegation that might have some foundation that should be reported.
To recall, Mr. Chairman, Bill 46 last year--Bill 47 last year, it required boards to comply with directives of the minister. So, when the minister issues a directive and asks to be notified or says to be notified, that has the weight of law behind it. So, without a regulation, it still is an onus that is placed upon the field.
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Ms. Friesen: So school boards, school trustees, superintendents should interpret those guidelines as directives, even though they were issued previously or before the law was enacted. I wonder, has the minister undertaken to inform school divisions that that is the case? Would that be anticipated, having been covered in the enactment of the new law?
Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, there are so very many guidelines that have been issued by the department in earlier years. I think when a statement comes out in law that says that directives issued by the minister must be followed that there would be an expectation that would include the earlier guidelines and instructions that had been sent out, and if the minister wanted to change that and not make them imperative, then she or he would have to then retract those earlier guidelines. I think that would be a simpler way to address it; otherwise, you would have to go back and get out everything that has been sent out for all those years beforehand. It would be just so time consuming; it would not be practical.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, could the minister give me a sense of how she would anticipate a school division would deal with allegations of professional misconduct which do not include sexual abuse, which do not include charges which are of a criminal nature? Is there a standard procedure? I do not want to particularly single out the St. James School Division, but it is one that the minister is familiar with. Would trustees in general, would school divisions in general, have formal policies on this? If so, would the minister give me a sense of where she thinks there is an ideal policy or one that would be worthy of commendation?
Mrs. McIntosh: Boards do not file their policies with us, so I am not able to answer with a certainty, but I do believe that divisions do have policies, maybe not all of them. The Manitoba Association of School Trustees would, I think, keep on file their copies of policies from school divisions. If you take, for example, a teacher who has been absent without leave, so to speak, where they just do not show up in the morning and they have not notified the substitute and they have maybe gone on a drinking binge or whatever and they have left the school in the lurch because they are not there to teach their students or they have some other type of misconduct, those are types of misconduct that do not put a student in immediate jeopardy but would certainly affect the learning if those kinds of behaviours are continued.
Most divisions have ways of dealing with those types of things that may or may not be written down as policies, may just be methods of procedure. Some of them can be ones that are difficult to anticipate but would fall into the category of professional misconduct. So normally we would say that would be the division's responsibility under their personnel or their human resources. Their individual contract with the teaching association in their division, you know, could have statements about policies and procedures regarding professional misconduct.
I know that certainly in terms of competency some divisions have policies whereby if a teacher has so many performance evaluations that indicate the teaching is slipping, which is a form of, it is not really misconduct, but it is not living up to the full expectations of a professional, they will have ways of coping with those things in their policy and procedures manual. As well, I believe the Manitoba Teachers' Society has a code of professional ethics, a code of conduct that they adhere to as a society.
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I do not have a copy of that here, but I would imagine that through the Manitoba Association of School Trustees the policies of divisions could be received, and through the Manitoba Teachers' Society the professional code of conduct could be received. Beyond that, the employing authority, the school board will have a variety of procedures to deal with. Things like just not showing up for work one morning or drinking on the job or those kinds of things, we do know that some are investigated by the employer and remain internal, and some will investigate and report their initial findings to the Manitoba Teachers' Society, and occasionally some will report to the Minister of Education. So we know those three methods take place.
Ms. Friesen: So what the minister is saying is that in these issues which do not involve sexual or physical abuse and where the safety, however we define that, of the child is not in jeopardy, then it becomes a board responsibility. When you are in the situation of a private school, where there may or may not be a board, can the minister confirm that she is satisfied that private schools have those kinds of policies in place?
Mrs. McIntosh: The standards of reporting have been consistently in the same level, and the methods of investigation are the same. The expectations or having to report to the authorities in cases of suspected cases of abuse are the same. I have no reason with any evidence put before me to doubt that these same standards are met in this area whether the school be publicly funded or privately funded, rather publicly operated or privately operated, because in all things those independent schools must have certified teachers who go by the same professional code of ethics as other teachers. Whether they teach in private or public, they are all certified, they all have the same training, et cetera. All are accountable to the law enforcement authorities. More so, I think, on the independent schools, the direct accountability to the parents is such that the parents can withdraw with greater ease than they might from a public school.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I think one of the issues is in fact that, yes, people may withdraw, but the damage may have been done. The policies which the minister--I do not want to put words into her mouth. What she said was she has no reason to believe that the same standards are not being met in private as in public schools. The minister, I think, under this section of the department is required to ensure that independent schools comply with administrative and program requirements. I think what she is saying by implication is that there is no requirement for formal policy in private schools in the same way that there is in public schools. Now I know that what she is saying is that--she would respond, I assume, that there is not a requirement for public schools to have that, that that is up to trustees. But we do have the ability in the case of a public school to have access, as public, to the minutes of the board, to the policies that are set in place by the board, and there is written evidence for parents that such policies exist or do not exist. It seems to me that in the private schools, that is less clear. Some schools presumably do; some schools presumably do not.
I am wondering if the minister, since she has sent these guidelines to both public and private schools four to five years ago and these are now the requirements of the school to respond to, is aware of any instances where the schools may not have fulfilled those guidelines.
I want to follow that up by asking the minister how many issues--and I do not want to get into the details of the issues. I am interested in how many issues have been brought to the department's attention dealing with professional misconduct which do not fit the issues of sexual abuse or safety, physical or sexual abuse of a child, or the safety of a child. Can the minister tell me how many such cases, allegations, have been brought to the department, say in the last, oh, I do not know, whatever reasonable time would be, let us say the last five or six years?
Mrs. McIntosh: In answer to the first part of the member's question, there are no more restrictions or obligations on public boards than there are on private. I think there is an underlying assumption in the question that somehow public schools had a greater obligation than private schools in this area, and that is not so. There are no stronger restrictions on public schools than on independent schools. Even the minutes of meetings, I can assure the member that in a public school board, a meeting on an issue of this type would be in camera, and it would never be made available under Freedom of Information or anything to the public. It would be considered a personnel issue, in camera. While there would be minutes, no one would be able to get them except those board members, so there would not be access to information that way.
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When I say that I am satisfied that the standards are the same, I mean that based upon the guidelines that are out, the response to the guidelines that occur when there are problems in the field, that is what I mean when I say that I am satisfied there is the appropriate response appearing, whether the school is independent or public. The professionalism and the concern for children is there. When I say parents can pull out more easily, I do not mean that they pull out after the fact; that we wait until something has happened, then they can pull out. I simply mean that, if there is something in the school the parents do not like, say, a stricter discipline or something of that nature, the parents can just quickly move out, whereas in a public system they can either demand change and get it, or move out. In the public system, that may not be as easy for them to do. The same guidelines are there for all who care for children, and the responses to date have been appropriate wherever those have gone.
In terms of referrals to the Certificate Review Committee for nonsexual or nonphysical violence against children, there was one in the last four years, one in the three years previous to that. These are from memory, so if they are out a little bit, it is by recollection that these figures are being provided, not by checking against the stats. I believe there was a breach of contract with one that ended up at Certificate Review Committee. There was another with theft of school money, which is not going to directly hurt children, but it is certainly a breach of contract. It is a breach of not just contract, but it is a gross misconduct for a professional.
So those are the types of things that would end up getting referred. Then the Certificate Review Committee would then wrestle with the question: if a person has absconded with school division funds, does that or does that not make a person ill suited to teach? Should the certificate be lifted? There are often many, many circumstances around that question that causes them to wrestle. It is a more difficult question to deal with than the ones who get referred for physical or sexual abuse of children which are quite straightforward. If there has been a criminal conviction of sexual abuse of a child, that is a no-brainer. That person is ill suited to teach and should not have the certificate there. Some of these other issues will result in the certificate's suspension but are less straightforward to deal with than directly affecting children.
Did you have one other question? Did the member have another question in that round that was asked? [interjection] Staff is just penning me a note here that I think may be pertinent to this particular question. Just by way of providing an example, staff has just jotted me a note here. The member had indicated at the beginning, and I respect and appreciate her saying we do not need to get into details about the recent media report, but just by way of example without going into the details there, in that particular issue, there was a report of an alleged harassment of a student. That, for example, was made known to us about 10 days ago, and the staff began their investigations. So that type of thing will come to us. It will often then get picked up, say, by media or something, but usually by the time it is picked up by media, it is either solved or in the final stages of being solved or in the middle of the investigation.
We do not speak publicly about those things as a rule because--and I appreciate the member's sensitivity in that regard--particularly where there are allegations and they are just allegations at the initial point, and there is a young person involved. So for those two reasons, a minor and an allegation that has yet to be confirmed or have charges pressed, we try to be extremely discrete to ensure that no innocent person is harmed.
Sometimes they do end up getting in the media, and sometimes innocent people do have reputations severely damaged, and sometimes young children do get unnecessarily exposed to publicity. Those are things that are difficult to control, but they are very difficult for families when it happens.
Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Chairperson, we are going down the same path we were at a few days ago. With just a moment remaining, I know the minister had provided some information with respect to Transcona Collegiate, and I am sorry, I was not here at the time. I was away dealing with a break-in for my constituency office.
I had asked some questions--and I will read Hansard about Transcona Collegiate, but I had asked some questions or was going to with respect to Murdoch MacKay Collegiate, which is also in my constituency of Transcona, dealing with their vocational program.
I guess the question I would like to ask of the minister is with respect to that particular vocational high school on whether or not this is the appropriate staff who are available to assist the minister with answers to that and whether or not there are plans by the department to provide any additional support by way of equipment or facilities for that particular vocational high school, looking at recent articles that have been in the media as of late with respect to employers saying that we do not have people with the appropriate skills to fill the vacancies in their particular business operations, which leads me to the questions here and finding out whether or not the department is providing any further assistance to that high school for that vocational program to assist with the training of our young people in that school.
Perhaps the minister, if she needs to, can take that question as notice since we will be out of time here in a few moments, Mr. Chairperson, and when we come back to Estimates next time, she can perhaps have the answer available at that time, and perhaps I can follow up with further questions.
Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honourable member. When the committee again sits, the minister can bring that question forward if she so desires.
The hour now being five o'clock, time for private members' hour. Committee rise. Call in the Speaker.