Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I move, seconded by the member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments be amended as follows: the member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) for the member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson), the member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings) for the member for Morris (Mr. Pitura), the member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck) for the member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer), and the member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer) for the member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson).
Motion agreed to.
PROPOSED RESOLUTIONS
Res. 30--Sayisi Dene Relocation
"WHEREAS from time immemorial the Sayisi Dene have lived on the land to the west of Hudson Bay, where the boreal forest meets the Barren grounds; and
"WHEREAS in 1910 the Sayisi Dene, then called the Fort Churchill Chipewyan Band, signed an adhesion to Treaty Five; and
"WHEREAS despite the treaty signing, no reserve was created and the Sayisi Dene continued to live for the most part as they always had with little contact with the outside world until 1956 when, without consultation or agreement, they were relocated to Churchill by Indian Affairs; and
"WHEREAS at Churchill, the Sayisi Dene were unable to hunt and maintain their traditional livelihood, their language or culture, and were forced into lives of extreme poverty and desperation; and
"WHEREAS more than a third of them died during this period; and
"WHEREAS the Sayisi Dene, on their own, moved to Tadoule Lake in 1973 to rebuild their community and deal with the horrendous problems caused by the forced relocation; and
"WHEREAS the Federal Government has never apologized for the forced relocation.
"THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba go on record requesting the Federal Government to apologize for the forced relocation of the Sayisi Dene in 1956; and
"BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this Assembly request the Federal Government to negotiate with the Sayisi Dene for the damages caused by this forced relocation; and
"BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this Assembly request the Federal Government to re-adjust the Nunavut treaty to take into account the traditional Sayisi Dene hunting and burial grounds North of Sixty; and
"BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this Assembly request that the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly be requested to send each Manitoba Member of Parliament a copy of this resolution."
Motion presented.
Mr. Jennissen: Madam Speaker, I firmly believe that this resolution is not a partisan resolution, as so many of the private members' resolutions in this Chamber are. Therefore, because this resolution is broad in scope and because this resolution attempts to draw attention to the need to right historical wrongs, I hope all members in this Legislative Assembly will support it.
The story of the Sayisi Dene in Manitoba is not a pretty story, Madam Speaker. It is a story of a paternalistic federal government making unilateral decisions in Ottawa that affect directly the lives of people in northern Manitoba.
The story of the forced relocation of the Sayisi Dene, the Dene from the east, has been well documented. Perhaps somewhat less documented and perhaps less understood, especially by the bureaucrats who set into motion the events which scarred a people, are the continuing costs in terms of human tragedy and despair.
Let us make no bones about it. A once proud and self-reliant people were uprooted from all that was familiar and literally dumped into a holding camp on the Churchill River. Later they were moved to another temporary camp and then to the infamous Camp 10, or later, Dene Village. Tiny, thin-walled houses or shacks were perched next to the graveyard. Dene Village itself was miles away from Churchill or Fort Churchill.
Imagine, if you will, Madam Speaker, the Sayisi Dene people living at Duck Lake in the summer of 1956. Duck Lake is approximately 200 kilometres northwest of Churchill, close to the 60th parallel. It was an ideal location because it was situated on a caribou migration path. Every fall, the Sayisi Dene would kill enough caribou at Duck Lake to provide for their families and for their dogs for the entire winter.
But there would be no traditional fall hunt in 1956. On the afternoon of August 17, 1956, an amphibious military aircraft landed on the placid waters of Duck Lake. Two hours later, with 58 people and 73 dogs aboard, the Canso amphibious aircraft took off for direction Churchill. The long journey of suffering for the Sayisi Dene had just begun.
The forced airlift of the 58 Sayisi Dene to the Churchill area affected all other Sayisi Dene. At least 200 were not in Duck Lake that fateful day. They were on the trap line or at North River or trading. Some came to Duck Lake later to find an empty village. Yes, we know what happened, but we do not know why it happened. Was the undue haste with which the Sayisi Dene were forcibly relocated to accommodate the wishes of the Hudson's Bay Company?
In Volume 1 of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples, an entire chapter is devoted to the forced relocation of the Sayisi Dene and other First Nations people. The report calls the Sayisi Dene removal tragic and complex. It notes that the federal government took actions without understanding long-range effects or consequences. Consultation, such as it was, took place only after the move. The goals appear to have been, I can only speculate, to assimilate the once-nomadic Dene and end their hunting of caribou; or as the report of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples states: the real reason for the relocation of the Sayisi Dene might be for government convenience and to make administration of services easier through centralization and/or amalgamation.
The wishes of the Dene people who had lived in the northlands since time immemorial were set aside because bureaucrats and politicians in Ottawa decided they knew better. These bureaucrafts either did not know or did not care what the effects of their misguided paternalism would be.
When the people were first dumped on a small strip of land near Churchill with few tents and inadequate supplies, there was an attempt by Ottawa at last-minute planning, but serious mistakes were made, and much of the limited supplies that the federal government finally decided to send did not show up on time or were lost. The Dene were left destitute. Their dogs and rifles were taken away from them, making it impossible for them to even attempt to live off the land.
Earlier Artie Cheekie, then chief of the Sayisi Dene, had pleaded with spokespersons of the Department of Indian Affairs and the Department of Natural Resources. Artie Cheekie said: Our people are here--meaning Duck Bay--because the caribou come here. What is there for us to live on in Churchill?
But Artie Cheekie's prophetic words went unheeded. Betsy Anderson, an elder almost a century old, who still remembers the signing of Treaty 5 in 1910, a treaty between the Sayisi Dene and the Crown of England, said the following about the forced relocation of the Sayisi Dene, and I quote: when the people were informed that they would be moved, many of them didn't understand the reasons behind the move or what was supposed to happen to them. It wasn't what the people wanted, but their wishes weren't taken into consideration.
Here is what Nancy Powderhorn said in a position paper of March 12, 1997, to the House of Commons Standing Committee on Aboriginal and Northern Affairs. She is speaking on behalf of chief and council.
She says: our people are dying because of these horrible conditions, and speaking of death, the genocide that the Sayisi Dene First Nation's members experience because of the stupidity and the total lack of human compassion by the federal government is outrageous and unacceptable by any sense of the world's standards. The conditions that we were forced to live through following the first mass relocation from Duck Lake to Churchill in 1956 are even below Third World standards. We were and we still are the poorest of the poor. History shows that we were dumped on the shores of Hudson Bay, forced to live in one-room paper-thin shacks. We had no economic resources, no running water, no healthy supply of fresh water, no proper heating, and no food. Direct action and inaction by the federal government caused our people to scour the Churchill garbage dump to supplement our diet. Now, let me make sure you have the full grasp of what I just said. We had to eat the garbage from other human beings just to live. That is what I mean by mass genocide. The Sayisi Dene First Nation lost half of its membership. We watched our friends and family members dying around us, and there was nothing we could do to stop it, unquote.
Those words by Nancy Powderhorn are strong words, Madam Speaker, but they ring true.
Another example of the federal government's lack of planning was the fact that the Sayisi Dene in Churchill were issued wood stoves but not given any wood because there are few trees in Churchill. The Sayisi Dene were forced to use parts of their houses for fuel to prevent their children from freezing to death in winter months.
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As well, there is another remarkable and recent account of the Dene relocation and its aftermath by Ula Bussidor and Ustun Bilgen-Reinart. This book is entitled Night Spirits. I strongly recommend Night Spirits to all honourable members in this Chamber and to anyone else interested in understanding the struggles First Nations people have undergone in this country. It is a deeply disturbing, graphic and brave account of the lives of the Sayisi Dene over the past several decades.
The book was rated as one of the best books coming out of Manitoba in 1998. The book chronicles how the relocation from Duck Bay to Churchill was a dismal failure. Supposedly, the people were moved for their own good because the Hudson Bay store at Duck Bay was closing. We know the catastrophic results: the nomadic self-reliant caribou hunters who had survived the harsh northern climate and had built their own complex culture were suddenly isolated and made helpless. They had lived in the North for thousands of years, and they had remained independent and self-reliant. They were a proud people. It took only two decades of life in or near Churchill to virtually destroy the Sayisi Dene. That is a crime for which no one has yet taken responsibility or even offered an apology.
The spiral of violence, alcoholism and death that engulfed so many Sayisi Dene families in Churchill has been powerfully presented in Night Spirits. The authors point out in the appendix of the book the tragic statistics. Remember that in 1956 the estimated Sayisi Dene population was between 250 and 300, probably closer to 250. From November 1956 when the Sayisi Dene faced their first hunger winter in Churchill to November 1977, a total of 117 members of the Sayisi Dene First Nation died. That is almost one-half of the population. Madam Speaker, 32 of these deaths were children under the age of two; 54 died violently as a result of horrible living conditions or alcohol-related causes. Some died in house fires; some drowned or went missing.
In the early 1970s, the Sayisi Dene realized that, if they were to survive as a people, if healing were to occur, they must move away from Churchill to their own traditional hunting areas. Only that way could the nightmare be forgotten or at least put aside. They moved to Tadoule Lake. After nearly two decades of misery and despair, the Dene moved themselves back to one part of their traditional territory.
The caribou hunt has resumed and outwardly life looks normal, but inside the scars remain. The scars of the forced relocation are still there. The pain is just below the surface. Those scars and that pain is what Ila Bussidor calls Night Spirits. Ovide Mercredi said: Ila Bussidor's story is about struggle. It is about vision. It is so deeply personal that, once told, her people will enter into a new journey, a healing journey that will involve atonement on the part of the federal government. Canadians will weep; the Dene will heal, unquote. I hope Ovide is right.
As MLA for Tadoule Lake, I visit the community as often as I can. I can attest to the friendliness and the generosity of the Dene people and to the beauty, the stark and elemental beauty of their surroundings. There are challenges to letting go of a painful past and starting a new future. Certainly, the beautiful new school, the Peter Yassie Memorial School, is a bold step in a positive direction. In that school, there is a wonderful blending of the traditional and the modern. The school is administered by the band, and as Ila Bussidor writes, it has become a symbol of hope and regeneration for the people of Tadoule Lake, a resource centre for the entire community.
Many challenges remain however. The young people of the community need more recreational facilities. The winters are long and cold in Tadoule Lake. Poor housing is a particular concern, and the federal government is very slow at addressing this serious issue. Also, a reliable winter road would be a great asset. This past winter, the winter road was not completed due to warm weather conditions. Negotiations to ship building materials and other goods to Tadoule Lake are ongoing. The cost of living in Tadoule Lake is almost twice that of Winnipeg.
When the Sayisi Dene signed an adhesion to Treaty 5 in 1910, they did so reluctantly. Betsy Anderson, who can still remember that treaty signing, said, quote: The way we understood that piece of paper, the land was not part of the deal. If we had been told that we were signing away our land for the amount of $5 a person, there was no way our people would have agreed, unquote.
The Sayisi Dene were promised 160 acres of land for each family of five, a reserve and the right to hunt and trap and fish in their traditional territory. The traditional territory of the Sayisi Dene extended well beyond the 60th parallel, past Nueltin and North and South Henik Lake. Almost 90 years later, the land promised has not yet been acted on. As well, the Dene were more or less left out of the negotiations, creating Nunavut. This affects not only the Sayisi Dene at Tadoule Lake, but also the Dene community of Lac Brochet, as well as three Saskatchewan Dene communities.
This past January, along with my colleague the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) and the M.P. for Churchill and a representative from MKO, we met with the Sayisi Dene chief and council at Tadoule Lake and later Lac Brochet to discuss the concerns over Nunavut. Time is of the essence, because Nunavut becomes a full-governing entity on April 1, 1999.
I am pleased to tell the Legislature that the federal government has agreed to assist with a meeting of elders, both Dene and Inuit elders, to discuss the Dene concerns over Nunavut. There are tentative plans to hold such a meeting this June in Churchill. We wish both sides well at this important meeting. MKO was instrumental in 1994 in organizing a similar meeting, and that is the preferred way, the traditional way, to have the respected elders of both sides sit down and attempt to work out a mutually acceptable resolution to the problem.
Years ago, the Dene and the Inuit shared much of the disputed territory north of 60. The elders still remember this, and there are many documented cases where the Dene helped the Inuit in a particularly difficult winter and vice versa. There are Dene graveyards and old campsites north of 60. The 60th parallel is merely an arbitrarily drawn line on a map. It cannot be considered the northern limit of Dene hunting, fishing and trapping territory. As well, if there should be development of extracting mineral resources in the area, the Dene have a right historically to be part of that.
Meanwhile, the attempts to get justice for the effects of the enforced relocation continue to be delayed. Perhaps the federal government fears that, in dealing with the Sayisi Dene relocation, they will be forced to deal with more than a dozen other cases. Past sins could come to haunt the federal government. Perhaps the federal government feels that, by ignoring the issue, the issue will go away, but the issue will not go away. It must be dealt with.
For starters, the federal government could apologize to the Sayisi Dene people for the forced relocation to Churchill and its horrendous consequences. Surely we all realize this is a black mark on Canadian history. I want to pay tribute to the Sayisi Dene chiefs and councils of the past and the present, as well as to the elders who have never given up their vision to rebuild the Sayisi Dene First Nation.
I urge all members of this Chamber to join me in supporting this resolution and thus supporting the ongoing struggles of the Sayisi Dene First Nation. Common sense dictates that we should do so. Honour and justice demand that we do so. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): On a matter of House business, earlier I announced that the Standing Committee on Law Amendments will meet on Tuesday of next week at 7 p.m. to consider certain bills. I would like to add to the list of bills to be considered at that meeting: Bills 3, 9 and 17.
Madam Speaker: For the information of the House, the Standing Committee on Law Amendments scheduled for Tuesday evening, 7 p.m., the three additional bills are to be added to the previous listing: Bills 3, 9 and 17.
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Hon. David Newman (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Madam Speaker, it is once again a privilege to be able to rise to speak to a resolution, I think, of great importance, great importance because it focuses attention on a situation that is, using the very descriptive, detailed words of the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), of compelling need for us in the modern world where we are trying to do healing and restorative justice, of compelling need for understanding and of appropriate resolution.
I will be speaking in support of the preamble kind of thinking and in support of the feelings of sympathy and the feelings of regret that this treatment of these very wonderful people was ever allowed to take place, but I cannot support the substantive part of the resolution for several reasons. I intend to go into them in some detail, but because time is not going to permit me, I know that I have discussed this with honourable members on this side who will be speaking to this resolution. They have, because the resolution was brought forward, had an opportunity to read this important book, Night Spirits by Ila Bussidor and Ustin Bilgen-Reinart. They have been able to think about and come to grips themselves with the challenge of how you ever contribute to a healing of this unacceptable kind of situation.
So my part is going to be to speak to the solution offered in relation to the traditional lands and hunting grounds. I am going to be very brief on that, and the detail and specifics I will leave to honourable colleagues if they have the opportunity to speak on it.
But, very simply, with respect to the solution to allowing the Sayisi Dene to access north of 60 traditional hunting grounds, rather than imposing or asking the federal government to reopen negotiations in the North or asking the Inuit people of the North to do something which will cause them to feel imposed upon, the approach that we have communicated to the federal government as a government is expressed in a variety of letters to the federal government and is reflected in our TLE negotiations as well, and the position of the provincial government is that land selected by Manitoba bands under the framework agreement should not differ between jurisdictions. That is, claims regarding territory north of 60 should have the same standing as claims affecting adjacent provinces.
There is a ratification vote scheduled to take place on July 24 of this year with respect to the TLE Framework Agreement and approval by the Sayisi Dene of Tadoule Lake. At that time, if the agreement is ratified--that is, the TLE Agreement is ratified--the band members will be able to select a total of 22,372 acres of land to settle their entitlement. Now, my point is that that land could be in part land within the territory of Nunavut, and just as the Province of Manitoba has accommodated the federal government in that respect for the benefit of aboriginal people, that could likewise be done in Nunavut.
So there is a solution at hand there, and the federal government response to that has essentially been, well, the matter is before the courts. Our position is that that is not a sufficient reason to avoid addressing this by agreement rather than by litigation.
The second point that I want to address, and I will do it in more length, is the issue of apology, and I have some thoughts on this that I thought it would be appropriate to share during this private members' hour that apply to this situation but other situations as well. Madam Speaker, I do not think the main factor in this tragic episode of the history of the Sayisi Dene is whether the federal government acted out of malice or bad faith in relocating the First Nation to Churchill or with respect to the admittedly appalling living conditions they had to endure there for a century or more. Nor does Manitoba in its positions, nor do I as an individual intend to take a stand defending the federal government's decision or the way it was carried out.
Instead, Madam Speaker, I would like to look at apologies in a different perspective. Throughout the world in recent decades, we have had a number of historical situations that have either resulted in apologies or in strong demands for one. Most recently, the federal government issued an apology to aboriginal people throughout Canada with respect to the residential schools question, and there is no doubt that the record of governments in dealing with our aboriginal people is anything but a proud one. Although we take a positive approach in dealing with northern and aboriginal issues, much of the programming takes account of the legacy of the past concerning administration of our responsibilities to aboriginal peoples.
As I have said in this House and elsewhere, we cannot truly enjoy as a people a high quality of life until all our citizens can participate fully in society. Our efforts and commitments are to invest the necessary social capital to make this possible, but at the same time, Madam Speaker, we have to ask and consider what apology is the most appropriate instrument or remedy for what happened to the Sayisi Dene and the role of the federal government in that episode.
From my perspective, two or three generations later, we can certainly look back and assert and even agree that injustices were done to the Sayisi Dene in uprooting them from their traditional lands and mobile way of life and planting them in the crude suburban circumstances of the town of Churchill of the day.
We must also ask ourselves if the agents of government who carried out the relocation and their supervisors and political superiors were acting in bad faith or with the intent of inflicting the results that the Sayisi Dene suffered in their years in Churchill.
In light of the knowledge of peoples and the beliefs and understanding of midcentury, are we acting and questioning from the hindsight available to us, or was there a real case of bad faith or violation of accepted fiduciary standards in the Sayisi Dene relocation?
This is not to say that we should be silent in light of what happened to the Sayisi Dene and their relocation to Churchill and their years of misery there. Indeed, I believe we should go further. To the extent that governments or anyone diminish the ability of the Sayisi Dene to realize their full potential and practise their chosen way of life, to the extent that anyone forced an interruption of that traditional lifestyle, we as Manitobans and all Canadians should be apologetic and recognize the need for healing for any injustice done.
To turn to another aspect of this episode, Madam Speaker, it is not too late to applaud the Sayisi Dene for having the courage and determination to relocate themselves to Tadoule Lake in 1973 and the determination to retake control of their lives as individuals and as a First Nation. In obtaining their reserve, in participating in the treaty land entitlement process and in pursuing their goals of reclaiming their traditional way of life, the First Nation has clearly set its sights on being masters and mistresses in their own house. They have determined to heal, to put behind, though not forget the past and look to the future.
In this regard, the views of the partner of one of the coauthors of Night Spirits are instructive. They are worth quoting. To heal together is a very difficult process, but we know it is necessary for our community, because if we do not heal, our injuries will pass on to our kids and our kids will pass them on to their children. People in Tadoule Lake live with such pain, such chronic anxiety that it becomes unbearable. We have to nurture our sense of identity and strength. That is something you do again and again. Everyone has to struggle for it in their own way at their own pace. Only if we can overcome the disruption of our lives caused by this baggage we carry from Churchill will we be able to move forward. Our highest priority has to be soothing the souls of our people.
In aboriginal justice, Madam Speaker, the Ontario crown attorney, Rupert Ross, also an author of note, discovered in dealing with First Nations in northwestern Ontario a pertinent reason for allocating responsibility, a point that is close to the surface in the resolution of the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen). His book, Returning to the Teachings, Ross writes there that the traditional purpose of allocating responsibility was, quote, not to pick out someone for punishment, but to identify issues that needed to be addressed as well as the people whose attitudes and activities had to be reoriented if the issues were to be resolved.
I think we have to look to ways to enable the Sayisi Dene to be masters in their own house and control their destiny. We have to facilitate the healing process that is still going on years after the Sayisi Dene found and established a new home base for their First Nation.
Madam Speaker, as part of our general commitment as a province and specific commitments under TLE, we have to support the efforts of the Sayisi Dene to protect their access rights to their traditional hunting grounds in the future Nunavut, and we are doing that.
Associate Chief Justice Murray Sinclair, speaking to a meeting of elders, policymakers, and academics at Albert [phonetic], Quebec, just over a year ago, gave an eloquent presentation about aboriginal people and justice issues. One thing he said is relevant to the process we need to establish and follow. Quote: What we need to focus on is how we can establish a process whereby you who are aboriginal and you who are nonaboriginal can continue to come together with a view in mind about how we can do what is right where aboriginal people are concerned. We need to think about that and we need to talk about. End of quote.
What is right, I assert, is not acting as judges of the past, but facilitating the healing of the hurt and injustice and facilitating the development of a relationship of mutual trust, of partnership and of friendship with the First Nations of Manitoba. In other words, let us attempt to work out a position here and solutions with our aboriginal communities in a spirit of trying to reach agreement on issues instead of making judgments and pointing fingers.
Madam Speaker, now is a very good time for such a process to be started. In the next 25 to 30 years, there will be enormous opportunities for aboriginal peoples to contribute to the resolution of many challenging issues in both their own communities and in other communities here and across Canada. As Minister responsible for Native Affairs, I have repeatedly seen direct evidence of this potential in the growing expertise of aboriginal people who have been at the table in TLE and Northern Flood Agreement negotiations. In my present role and in my related experience of more than 25 years of practising law, I have been deeply impressed and indeed moved by the aboriginal commitment to a holistic approach to justice and dispute resolution.
In recent years, Madam Speaker, Manitoba society has been changing to place more values on the wisdom, values, traditions and oral teaching of our aboriginal peoples. The aboriginal tradition places a high value on peace making and healing solutions in restorative justice, not to mention community involvement.
Madam Speaker, we are committed to finding ways to ensure that the past experiences of the Sayisi Dene and the current issues that affect their ability to secure a healthy basis and future for their community can, in fact, be resolved to the satisfaction of all. We will continue in the path of this commitment and work to make it possible for all sides to adhere to a solution that produces this satisfaction.
Thank you, Madam Speaker, and thank you, honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), for bringing this resolution forward.
Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): First of all, I would like to commend the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) for bringing forward this resolution. In that resolution, there are some positive steps that could be taken for the people from Tadoule Lake now, and I think they warrant the full support of this House.
I disagree with the Minister of Northern Affairs when he says that apology is not warranted. Apology is warranted, if you look at the history and the lives of the Dene people that they had to live through by no choice of their own. The minister showed you the book Night Spirits. It is not a very happy book, and I hope it has a happy ending further on down in the future. I would recommend everyone in this Chamber read that book. I guarantee you that it will bring some tears to your eyes. That book is a very, very accurate book.
I say that because Churchill is my home. I was 10 years old, and I remember very, very clearly when the people were moved from Buck Lake into Churchill. They were brought in by planes. As young kids, we did not know what was going on, did not understand what was going on. Even our parents did not know what was going on. They were brought in and unloaded to what we call now the lower dock. It is right along Hudson's Bay. The only source of food that a lot of individuals had was some of the fish that they were able to catch. Some of them were lucky enough to bring their nets with them. They set the nets when the tide was out, and when the tide came in, they caught a few fish. That is what they literally lived on.
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I remember very distinctly because the people were so different than what we were used to seeing in the community of Churchill. They did not look like we did, as Inuit people. They did not look like the Caucasian people that were in the town. They did not look like the Cree who were in town. It was only rarely prior to that that we saw Dene people in the community, and they used to come in with their dog teams to get their supplies. Then they would not stay very long, and then they would head out.
I remember very clearly, very clearly, the individuals who were at lower dock because we used to go, because kids are curious, to look at them. The individuals were dressed in their moose hide jackets and their beads, very, very proud people, stood straight and tall, lot of dignity and a lot of pride. But when you saw the Dene people who left Churchill in 1976, you could not say that was the same people who had arrived to live in Churchill, or in 1973 when they left to go to Tadoule Lake, that was not the same people who arrived in Churchill in 1956.
They stayed there for awhile along the coast, and then they were moved to Camp 10. They built a little settlement for the Dene people, and I do not care who you are, you would never, ever allow that to happen to you. I do not care who you are. They were placed right up on the hill where the water treatment plant now is in Churchill, right on the hill, right up in the rocks, and all you saw from that hill was the Hudson Bay.
I know a lot of you or some you have been to Churchill in January and February and you get that wind whipping off the Hudson Bay at 50 to 60 miles an hour, it is very, very cold. They built little shacks. They were not even real houses. They were just little shacks that were built to southern standards. At the start, the army used to bring wood for the people, but it quickly stopped, and the people who were trying to live there and raise their families, had no firewood.
If you know Churchill, there is not an abundance of trees anywhere. So the people, yes, they did resort to stripping away--they started off with their stairs and then their porches and stuff, just to try and keep their families warm and their children from freezing. You go into those houses--and I have been in many of those houses because I became friends of many of the people, the children who were my age at that time and throughout the years. I have been in many of those houses, and you go in the wintertime and you saw the wind blowing through the cracks in the doors. You could see the frost on the walls. A lot of the windows were broken, and they just had a piece of plastic over top of them. You go in there and you saw very, very little food in any of those houses. It is a very sad part of Canadian history, but that book is very accurate, very, very accurate.
When you talk about the history of the people moving from Duck Lake to Churchill, we are very fortunate that Betsy Anderson, who was one of the real elders--when I say real elders, she is in her 90s--she remembers all that, and she remembers the signing of the treaties in 1910. If you talk to her, she will even tell you that the understanding of the chief and the people at that time was that they were going into a coexistent agreement. It was not to give away the land and they were going to be moved to Churchill. They thought they were going into coexisting where they would coexist with the white people and live in harmony and there would be no problems. They did not know that they were going to be moved and put under real undue hardships.
The children who were in those communities, their mothers and fathers, they were put into those communities, and there was no employment opportunities, very, very few. They had no resources to continue with their traditional lifestyle of hunting and fishing for their families. It was really sad. It was really, really a sad part of history that I witnessed. I lived with it, because they were my friends.
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I want to name some of them, because I know that some of them are struggling today with their history and they are fighting the demons, and they are trying to overcome a lot of the hurt that they feel. I hope some day that they will be successful. Alfred Sandbury, Sammy Bussidor, Peter Thorassie, Albert Thorassie, Celestine Thorassie, Johnny and David Duck, Joe Thorassie and one individual who will always be remembered for his leadership, commitment to his people, and for having sight of other leaders, was very instrumental in moving the people finally from Dene Village to Tadoule lake, and that is Peter Yassie. Because when they relocated from Camp 10 on top of the hill, that was built right on top of the hill, and right next door was our town graveyard, right next door. The kids would be playing amongst the crosses. That is why it is called Night Spirits. It was right next door to a graveyard.
Could you imagine someone taking you from your land or your place and saying, here, you are going to live right here, and there is your little shack and you have to stay there and you have to live there; you have no say in it. I do not think we would stand for that. I know we would not stand for that. I do not think there is a member in this Chamber who would stand for it, but those people had to go through it--they had to go through it.
From there, they moved them to Dene Village, which is three miles from Churchill, and most of the people from Dene Village did not have access to cars. When they did get some money to go and get their groceries and stuff, they had to take a taxi, so most of the money was gone right away just on taxi fares. A lot of them tried to walk, and because of the struggle and the hardship, a lot of the people just gave up their total dignity and gave up hope--totally, totally turned into different people. A lot of the individuals got violent, turned to alcohol. The younger generation turned to drugs. It was just on and on and on. Thank God for the leadership of the chief and council and Peter Yassie to say enough is enough; there is enough of our people who have been killed and died in such a violent and tragic way, or else we would have lost a lot more Dene people than sadly happened in the history of the relocation to Churchill.
You know, it is hard to imagine this happening in Canada. When you read that book, I guarantee you, you will think you are reading about another country because you could not imagine any person in Canada being treated in that way. From Camp 10 to the garbage dump at camp is about, oh, it would be about five miles. The Dene people used to walk there, walk there with their children, and they used to stay around the dump, and that is where they got their food, from the town, from the army base garbage dump. You could see they would pick through the garbage, get pieces of meat and stuff. You could go to the dump anytime, and that is where the Dene people were feeding their families. You would see the ones who went there, they would have boxes tied to their backs and they would bring whatever food they had for the rest of their families. That is how sad it was. And this is in Canada.
Do not tell me that those people are not owed an apology. I think the least they are owed is an apology from the federal government who had the unforgivable foresight to move the people from their traditional hunting and fishing lands, because the Dene people were like the Inuit people. That is my people that they are referring to when they talk about the Keewatin Inuit because the Keewatin Inuit go up to Arviat, Whale Cove, Baker Lake, Rankin Inlet. That is where all my family is from, and that is where most of them are right now.
Yes, the Dene and the Inuit, they stayed away from one another. They had respect for one another because you had to have respect for one another if you wanted to survive in the wilderness. If you are not willing to help thy neighbour, you will not survive in the cold and the harsh winters of the North. You just will not because you cannot do it alone. If you ever have an accident or get hurt, you need someone. If someone comes along, they should be willing to help. That is the way it is in the North.
Then when they moved them to Dene Village--and it is ironic because right next door to Dene Village was what was set up as Camp 20. That was the Inuit village, so there, again, the sharing. That is why when my colleague says that the traditional hunting lands--even under right now that was negotiated with lawyers and with probably some of the Inuit leaders of Nunavut, I think the proper thing that should have happened was that there was the elders from the Inuit side, the elders from the Dene side to meet together and say, okay, which is traditional land? We know it is yours and we know it is ours, but how can we best share this so that we all benefit or how can we continue sharing this?
I am sure that the elders in their wisdom would have been able to come with a solution, but now the boundaries of Nunavut have been drawn, and the Sayisi Dene are trying to change it now after the fact, which is going to be very difficult. It would have been much easier if it had been done beforehand in conjunction with elders from both sides. That would have been the proper thing to do.
So when we talk about those kinds of histories when the Dene moved to Tadoule Lake, Peter Yassie was very instrumental in that. Peter Yassie has passed away now, God bless his soul, because he was one of the real youthful leaders who had a vision with the recommendation of the elders and carried it through.
When the people went, first of all, to look for a place, when they first found Tadoule Lake, my brother John, who was always a close friend with PeterYassie, was part of that expedition that went out and relocated the people at Tadoule Lake. They stayed friends, very, very close friends for years, so my brother Johnny knows the real history of Nunavut and the traditional hunting lands, which are now being debated by the Inuit and Dene people. That is why I was glad when my colleague the MLA for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) went to Rankin Inlet to meet with my brother, because my brother is now the mayor of Rankin Inlet, and with his council and to suggest and try and get the elders to meet again and to try and come up with a resolution that would be approved by both sides. I think that is crucial that happens because in the old days it was nobody owned the land. It was, if you needed it, you used it; you took what you needed and that was it. The Inuit and the Dene people were very nomadic people because you had to follow the caribou to exist.
I am sorry I have run out of time. I have more to say, but thank you and I hope you will support this resolution.
Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Did you want to have leave to continue?
Mr. Hickes: Leave to continue? Sure.
Madam Speaker: Is there leave for the honourable member to continue? [agreed]
Mr. Hickes: I just wanted to add that, when they did move to Tadoule Lake, Peter Yassie, as I said, had problems of his own, fighting the demons, but he did a lot to overcome it. He worked for the Pan Am Airways in Churchill at the rocket site as an autobody man. He went through an apprenticeship and got it, and finally he got his pilot's licence. He used that and his plane to transport the people and to bring supplies to the people. Everything was for the people, for the people, and I am really, really honoured and proud to say that, yes, Peter Yassie had always been my friend. He had been a friend of the family's and eventually became chief for many, many years of the Dene people and was the chief when he first started to build up the Dene Village.
There is a lot of work to be done there, as my colleague was saying with Tadoule Lake. Yes, they have to try and overcome a lot of the hurt and a lot of the problems that they are carrying today. I know that the elders are working with the community and some day, some day I hope that they will be able to deal with that in a real positive way.
* (1750)
Dene people are very proud people and rightfully should be, and they have a very bright future ahead for the children that are growing up in Tadoule Lake. The children need to know and to grow up with that strong dignity and that hope that I as a 10-year-old saw when they first relocated the Dene people. I saw them on the beach of Hudson Bay for the first time with their traditional moose hide coats and the way they were dressed and the way they stood tall, and I am sure that is going to come back.
But we as governments, provincially, federally, must do all we can, whatever we can, to assist the Sayisi Dene people, to open the door to a brighter future for all Sayisi Dene and especially the children who are the future, and I am sure could have a very positive future with our assistance and our support. Because I know that they have asked for it, and I hope we will be there to assist them when their needs ask us of that. I think it is only right that we do that. So, Madam Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to say a few words. Thank you.
Mr. Dyck: I listened to the points of the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) with great interest. It is obvious that he has deep feelings about the episode of the Sayisi Dene, their battle to overcome the tragedy of relocation to Churchill more than 40 years ago and their efforts to secure their future through access to their historic, traditional hunting grounds on both sides of the 60th parallel.
Madam Speaker, I was just absolutely intrigued and listened with great interest to the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) for giving us a glimpse into his life and the things that he has experienced and the things that his people have experienced. It is also with interest that he pointed to the book, Night Spirits.
It is a while ago that I was in discussion with the members from our local library. In my discussion with them, I asked them which book they would really like to have. This is before we even knew of some of the comments that were going to be made here this afternoon. They indicated that they would like to have this book for their library. I have had an opportunity to page through it and to read from certain parts in the book. Certainly, it is very reflective of the things that the honourable member for Point Douglas has drawn to our attention here this afternoon.
I guess on the other hand I just need to look back and I would not have to look back that many weeks, and we find out, and the member pointed this out in the House here several weeks ago about some of the incidents that have taken place at a hockey game, about some of the comments that were made there and the threats that were hurled at people. The sad part of that is that some of these injustices still do happen today.
Madam Speaker, it is unfortunate that people are and treat each other this way, that they treat each other in a very negative way. I guess I have always had a philosophy, and I know that most honourable members I would think would adhere to that, that we are all created equal in the sight of God, and we should therefore treat each other that way.
So as we go through the book, as we go through and listen to the comments that the honourable member put on record here this afternoon, it is absolutely right that injustices were dealt to the Dene people. In the beginning, World War I, there were internal government discussions concerning the relocation of the Sayisi Dene. In 1925, the Department of Indian Affairs considered a proposal to relocate the Dene to Reindeer Lake. This proposal was dropped when the Anglican bishop of the Diocese of Keewatin intervened as he objected to them being moved to the Catholic community.
In the mid-'50s, the Sayisi Dene utilized a number of locations as a home base. The main locations included Little Duck Lake, Churchill and North Knife River. From 1953 to 1956, the Hudson's Bay Company, Manitoba Natural Resources Game Branch, and Indian Affairs discussed the need to move the Dene from Little Duck Lake as a solution to a perceived problem.
Many reasons have been cited for the relocation of the Sayisi Dene in 1956. Written documentation is almost nonexistent, but based on the number of meetings held between the Hudson's Bay Company, Manitoba Natural Resources Game Branch, and Indian Affairs in the early '50s leading to the relocation, the available evidence suggests three possible reasons for the relocation.
The first one is that the Hudson's Bay Company wanting to close its post at Little Duck Lake. This Hudson's Bay Company post had originally been established in 1929 at Caribou Lake and was relocated to Duck Lake in 1941. The Hudson's Bay Company had indicated to Indian Affairs that they would be closing the post in September of 1956. It was abandoned when the Dene were moved.
The next possible reason was the caribou crisis. Concern was being raised by the provincial Game branch that the caribou herds were in decline due to overhunting by the Dene. The basis of overhunting was supported by pictures of large numbers of caribou being taken. This fact is disputed by the Dene, as they claim that the caribou were taken when appropriate and then stored under snow in order to provide dog food and emergency food during the long winter. The Dene also cite major forest fires which, they claim, contributed to the decline.
Then the next one was that Indian Affairs wanted band members to be integrated into the broader society. The long-term goal of Indian Affairs at the time of relocation was to centralize the Indians near a town where they would no longer depend upon the land for their sustenance and be provided with housing, clothing, schooling and social services. This goal was a change in the approach to Indian Affairs, as they had previously tried to keep aboriginal people away from the questionable benefits of civilization.
In July of 1956, discussions between the Little Duck Lake band and Indian Affairs took place regarding the relocation of the band members. Whether the band agreed to the move is not clear, but it has been shown that the decision to move them had already been made. It is believed that one of the promises made was that the new Indian housing material would be provided at North Knife River. The Dene also claim that canoes and hunting and trapping equipment were promised.
Now, the first stage of the move began in August of 1956 when most of the band members were airlifted to Churchill with little room for personal supplies and property. A few others made the trip overland and were able to bring some hunting and trapping supplies, and I think that is consistent with what the other honourable member was talking about. The second stage involved the transporting of band members by boat or canoe from Churchill to the North Knife River. North Knife River was chosen with the idea that they would winter at North Knife River and then migrate back to Churchill for summer employment.
The building materials for houses never materialized, nor did the canoes and the hunting and trapping equipment. What supplies did arrive were left on the beach, and the tide took most of them away. Housing consisted of repaired cabins and log buildings made by axe with what stunted trees were in the area. In addition, the Sayisi Dene who relied on a caribou hunt for both clothing and food were unable to carry out this hunt as the caribou do not migrate in this region.
After a winter on a diet of macaroni--
Madam Speaker: Order, please. When this matter is again before the House, the honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck) will have eight minutes remaining.
The hour being 6 p.m., this House is adjourned and stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. Tuesday next.