4th 36th Vol. 22--Oral Questions

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): In town hall meetings last year and on April 7 last year in this Chamber, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) indicated that the government of Manitoba would save $10 million with the ideological proposal to privatize home care in the province of Manitoba. Subsequent to that, the Minister of Health last December stated that there is no significant saving in the privatization of home care and that they in fact are looking at their contract with Olsten in terms of future activity.

I would like to ask the Premier: who was right, the Minister of Health last December or the Premier all last year when he created all this crisis for patients, for disabled people, for workers, for all kinds of other Manitobans? Was he just telling us the truth at that point, or is the Minister of Health telling us the present play on privatization of home care?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I feel somewhat déjà vu in this question because this question was actually discussed, not just last winter in this House but it was discussed actually, if I remember correctly, in spring when I had questions, I believe, from the member's colleague who sits next to him regarding home care at the time that the contract, the one-year trial contract was awarded to Olsten.

What we are trying to do, Madam Speaker, is to find ways of better delivering health care in a sustainable fashion. At the time the planning went on in home care--remember it was based on the best information available. Our own home care system did not have at that time, and we were in the process of building, a very good record-keeping system. At that time we attempted to see if improvements could result from a tendering process. In that tendering process we had five bidders who met the quality test. Only one produced a bid that was lower than what we could deliver the service for ourselves, and so we continued with that test. Our comments have been made according to that result.

Mr. Doer: I did not discern an answer to the question, particularly in dealing with the contract that comes due on April 1, 1998. We did not get any specific position from the minister. He just continues to contradict the information the Premier (Mr. Filmon) gave the people of the province and the public of Manitoba in terms of his alleged savings of $10 million.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, on February 19, the Minister of Health challenged the opposition and anybody else to, quote, find beds, so he could reopen the beds across Manitoba. Obviously the Premier had not informed him that the Premier himself had closed down 800 beds alone in the city of Winnipeg.

Madam Speaker, over the weekend, the Minister of Health is now saying that he plans to find some beds next fall that he can reopen to deal with the crisis in health care. I would like to ask the Premier again: did the Premier close too many beds in Manitoba when he introduced all the cuts through two previous Ministers of Health? Did he close too many beds, as we had warned, without any long-term plan for replacing those programs? Will the Premier apologize to the people of this province for all the strain and crisis they put on families here in Manitoba for making those decisions?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, if we as a provincial government had not acted responsibly with the finances of this province, if we had continued to borrow money and increased the public debt as members opposite encourage us to do on a daily basis, when this province, like other jurisdictions that have gone through that, hit the wall and are no longer able to borrow money, that is a crisis. That is when services that the public need are not delivered.

With respect to beds, members opposite--even sitting in this House prior to being Minister of Health, I remember the debates being held on health care reform, and I do not recall members of the opposition saying that there was not a need to do a movement from acute care to home care in other facilities. Everybody agreed on that principle. Getting the exact number of acute care beds is not a science. Sometimes it is difficult. We have managed the system to the maximum capacity. We have had to because of reductions in support from Ottawa. Now, as we enter somewhat little bit better times--we have a little bit more maneuvering room; we wish we had that money back from Ottawa--we are able to look at ways of increasing our capacity and getting exactly what that right number is, but it is not an additional 800 acute care beds as the Leader of the Opposition would imply.

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Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): The government will know that the government was closing down these beds and firing the health care staff at a time they were building up the so-called rainy day fund or the Fiscal Stabilization Fund--up to $600 million when they were firing people and closing these beds down. That is why the public very definitely understands the lack of any caring on that side of the House in dealing with health care.

I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon): what has been the impact of the closed beds, his broken capital promise for personal care homes and the firing of some 1,500 staff? What has been the impact on health care in terms of our long-term ability and capacity to hire needed medical staff and nursing staff for beds for Manitoba patients when they need them?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I am very glad that the Leader of the Opposition today has recognized how important it is, at least I garner from his comments--the importance to get the right staffing levels and be able to move staff. As we see more personal care homes--and this government has continued to build personal care home beds throughout our mandate. We have added I do not know how many hundreds of personal care home beds across the system, and despite a pause period, we are committed to adding over 500 additional new beds to the system. As we work forward, I have to really underline the point, and I look to the Leader of the Opposition for his support.

Some time in the next year and a half when the Misericordia changes its function, we will have between 250 and 300 acute care nurses that we will need throughout the rest of the Winnipeg hospital system. We would like to be able to move them to jobs that will be there without changing their seniority or their benefits and their pay. We would hope that the Leader of the Opposition and the New Democratic Party will join with us in securing the necessary ability for the Winnipeg Hospital Authority to do that.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, Manitobans should not be surprised that they do not place any credibility in the comments of this government or this minister with promises of new beds, when in fact you look at the government's own report from 1990. They talk about personal care home beds, and I am reading from the government's own report--and they have a copy of it--where they recommended, by 1996 in Winnipeg alone, they should build 1,440 personal care home beds based on demographics, and they promised it in 1995 before the provincial election. They broke that promise, and that is the reason we have a crisis today, and why should we have any credibility in this minister's promising more beds now?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, this administration has been committed to responsibly dealing with the finances of our province. We have continued to build personal care homes. We have added significantly to our personal care home bed numbers across this province.

There was a period where we did have to put a pause on capital construction, but let us remember, regrettably, we do not work in a vacuum. The fact of the matter is, like all provinces in Canada, we had to deal with a significant reduction of funding from the national government, some $240 million annually. We also had an obligation to the same citizens of Manitoba to ensure that their province's finances were on a proper footing and balance. Otherwise, if we did what the New Democrats have done in government, which is continue to borrow, then medicare would not be sustainable, and I cannot think of anything worse that could befall our province than not to be able to afford our health care services.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, I turn to the Premier (Mr. Filmon). How does the Premier explain his own blue ribbon task force report calling for 1,440 personal care home beds to be constructed in Winnipeg by 1996, then promising it in 1995, then going back on that promise, and then listening to his own Minister of Health, who said: well, we do not have room for beds; then, we have room for beds; maybe we are going to put in beds; the Premier said 18 months. How can Manitobans have any stake in believing the words of this minister or this Premier with respect to beds in the province of Manitoba?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the beds are committed, the dollars have been identified, and within the Ministry of Health we are gearing up our Capital Branch to be able to advance those projects as quickly as is humanly possible, and it will not be too long before the people of this province will see those beds under construction.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, my final supplementary. How does the minister expect us to believe that, when we know today, for example, there are 10 beds at Riverview Health Centre waiting empty since May 1997? The unit is furnished and ready, and Manitoba Health has not authorized funding for staffing, and therefore those beds in a personal care home remain empty. How does the minister expect us to believe that more beds are going to be opened?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I have learned never to take at face value the information that members opposite bring in this Question Period. There may be some other issues there to date to get beds into operation.

But I do know this, when it was identified--[interjection] Well, the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) raises the Odd Fellows as if it was some magic solution. The Odd Fellows was a Level 1 and 2 care unit. It was not capable of managing people with Levels 3 and 4. We, in fact--[interjection] Well, of course. The home had people with Levels 1 and 2. That is what it was geared for. That is what it could accommodate. That is the kind of care it could provide. As those people aged and required Levels 3 and 4 care, they had to be put in Levels 3 and 4 beds. Levels 1 and 2 often can be looked after with home care.

So the member keeps raising Odd Fellows. Odd Fellows is a perfect example of the kinds of changes that have taken place. It would not have been any kind of panacea that the members opposite make it out to be.

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Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, health care services and emergency services continue to be uncertain in rural Manitoba because of lack of planning on the part of this government. Although there was an agreement from July 1 to deal with emergency services in rural Manitoba, that agreement expires on March 31, and there is no plan.

Can the Minister of Health tell the people of rural Manitoba how he is going to deal with this, and will we be guaranteed emergency services in hospitals in rural Manitoba after March 31?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I cannot resist the comment. When the member talks about no plan, what in fact we found in rural emergency services was exactly that. When health care was delivered by independent, individual hospital boards, we had a hodgepodge of different methods of paying physicians. That is in fact what sparked the withdrawal of services, and it was exactly the same type of governance system that members opposite continue to promote and defend in this House.

The plan with the rural emergency was to commence the review and assessment because it was an experiment; it was a new model. That will take place, and we will review it. We will keep it in place until we negotiate a change to it, which we cannot do until we have had the joint review with the Manitoba Medical Association.

Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, is the minister then telling us, and is he prepared to tell the people from Winnipegosis, who have signed hundreds of names to a petition, that emergency services that are in place right now will not be discontinued as of March 31?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, yes, she can certainly convey that to her constituents rather than any of the other kinds of statements that are not true and often come from this Assembly. I will say this: that it is our intention over the next number of months to assess the effectiveness of that program and to look at what changes we may need in that particular agreement to better deliver service.

I know one of the comments that is continually made to me, by both doctors whom I have met with and by regional health authorities, is the need to expand the number of graduations in the pay schedule. So that is something we are going to be looking at. It will not just end and not be replaced with anything.

Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, can the Minister of Health then tell this House why he has not communicated to rural hospitals and told them that the plan is going to continue, instead of leaving them in limbo and uncertain and having people sign petitions because they do not know where this government is going, and they do not believe that this government has any plan as far as emergency services for rural Manitoba?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the regional health authorities, who are party to those discussions and negotiations, are aware that the Manitoba Medical Association appreciates that there is a process of reviewing that particular agreement. I would suspect that this has to do more with individuals generating this type of petition activity than it does with reality.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, the Department of Housing took the greatest cut in this government's budget this year despite huge needs in the government's own housing stock as well as needs in the homes of the majority of Manitobans. They reduced the budget by 2.5 percent compared to last year's estimate and 34 percent compared to the actual spending of two years ago in the department.

I want to ask the Minister of Housing: why is he ignoring the role of housing in terms of health, community development and revitalization, and can he give us some explanation of why these huge reductions in his department?

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): I look forward to getting into Estimates discussions with the member for Radisson because there are a lot of various components and various factors in regard to the budget and the ramification as to where the funding goes; some areas are up, some areas are down. There is also the fact that has been pointed out from time to time, the fact that there are fundings that are not needed anymore because programs are not being subscribed. So that does not mean that there is necessarily a reduction in the funding. A lot of the time it means that some of the programs are not being picked up by the various components in the community.

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Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Can the minister explain why, after extolling the benefits in news releases of their pre-election home renovation programs that there was $74 million of construction activity, they no longer have any home renovation programs in their department, and can he explain why they are ignoring this important service for the majority of Manitoba homes?

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): The member is correct. The home renovation program proved to be very successful in its application when it was in the community. It is something that the federal government has also come forth with other programs for funding in help programs. We have various programs still available through the Housing department for renovations and for people that have assistance. It is a matter of asking and subscribing to these positions, and we will still have funding for that type of application.

Ms. Cerilli: Does the minister know of the need for home renovation programs in the province of Manitoba, with waiting lists for the federal RAP program of over 465 applications over a two-year waiting list? Why has this minister not, since 1990, matched the federal dollars for the RAP program, and why has he not invested at all in home renovation programs since then?

Mr. Reimer: One thing that I have noticed in the short time that I have been Minister of Housing and in other components, when you get into an arrangement with the federal government, a lot of times on these matching funding programs, they are into it for awhile and then they are gone. And then it means that we have to try to pick up the thing, and a lot of the times we have to be the ones that have to carry them after the federal government has gone into it and started it.

These are programs that, naturally, we are always interested in trying to work with our partners in the federal government and on the municipal level and try to come to some sort of adjustments and agreements regarding housing. We will continue to look at these types of programs to see whether there is a way that we can complement them, catalyst with them, or maybe make them even better.

Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): My question is for the Minister of Health. I have heard the minister say that he is working as quickly as he can to alleviate the shortage of long-term beds to alleviate the shortage of acute care beds. But he is not an architect, he is not an engineer, he is not a carpenter and he cannot produce them overnight.

In the north end of Winnipeg we have an edifice that, I believe, former Health ministers Bud Sherman and Larry Desjardins had something to do with being there. In that hospital, the Seven Oaks Hospital, there is floor space, there are wards not being used, there are beds that are not being used. When will this minister use the full potential of Seven Oaks Hospital so that we do not have waiting lines in emergency rooms?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): I would like to thank the member for The Maples for that question. I know we have had discussions about the future of Seven Oaks over the last number of months, and I know he brings a concern of a great number of people who use that facility in that part of the city and in neighbouring ridings--represented by the member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer), for example.

The Winnipeg Hospital Authority, as it endeavours to do its planning, wants to ensure that our facilities are used at their maximum, and with a change in function at the Misericordia Hospital, this now provides us the ability to look at those functions. The exact detail is being developed now and should be reported to the WHA board I believe sometime in May, and I would certainly hope and invite the member to see that information as it is developed.

Mr. Kowalski: My question for the minister is: what can I do as the MLA for The Maples, in which that hospital stands, to make sure, to encourage them to do it as quickly as possible, activate and make use of the full potential of Seven Oaks Hospital?

An Honourable Member: Vote for the NDP.

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, some members opposite talked about support for the New Democrats. Well, if they did that, if the member did that, we would be going backwards because they have not supported the kind of amalgamation of employing authority that is going to be needed to move staff. They would prefer to lay off 250 nurses at a hospital rather than move them. I can tell the member this, that I would invite him to meet with officials from the Winnipeg Hospital Authority--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Praznik: Thank you. I would invite and encourage him, as that work is being completed, to be briefed on it and to work within the community with that information.

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Mr. Kowalski: I ask the minister's personal guarantee that he will do everything possible to make sure that Seven Oaks Hospital is used to its full potential.

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, one of the dilemmas that has been facing Health ministers of all political stripes in Manitoba over the last number of decades has been the number of acute care facilities that we have had in this city, and that as our need for acute care services has declined and our need for long-term care and home care has increased, it is very difficult to run the system when you spread those services around seven facilities. With the Misericordia Hospital accepting a new role in long-term care, that means that we will be better able to focus on the remaining six hospitals. Quite frankly, it was the need to address the Misericordia issue, which has now been addressed and planning is underway, that allows us to get best use out of Seven Oaks, Concordia, Grace, Victoria, Health Sciences Centre and St. Boniface.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Justice. On Thursday the minister had the callousness to say he actually welcomed the Futch family having to sue this government, a lawsuit he prompted by refusing to even attempt a settlement so there could be some justice for these victims of the Headingley riot. Now we understand there is a newspaper report saying they only were seeking $80,000.

My question to the minister is: what aspect is he welcoming the most, victimizing the family once more, this time in the civil courts, the unequal resources between this family and the government of Manitoba or this government's message to victims that if you want justice from this government, make me?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I have indicated on prior occasions that our sympathy lies with the family. We are always concerned about improving our system. I am committed to the task of improving our system wherever there is a problem, and yes, I have a great deal of confidence in the legal system and in the courts to ensure that all the appropriate facts are brought out in this matter. So I know that the family is well represented by very able counsel, and I believe that the full discussion of this matter in the courts will lead to a full and appropriate disclosure of all the relevant facts. Unfortunately, given the member for St. Johns' misrepresentation from time to time, the true facts do not get out.

Mr. Mackintosh: Could the minister possibly explain why, we understand, it is willing to sit down and attempt settlement with inmates injured by the Headingley riot but not members of the public like the Futch family who suffered an irrevocable harm?

Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, the obligation I believe of the Attorney General is to ensure that the government of Manitoba receives appropriate legal advice in respect of any issue from whomever it comes. You know, that has been our position with respect to the Futch family. We have sat down with them as a department to look at the basis of their claim.

One of the things that we would not do, which the member for St. Johns seems to encourage, is to make some kind of a secret deal. I will not make a secret deal in respect of that kind of a matter, because if we do make a secret deal, that would be the first member to stand up and accuse us of doing secret deals. I am not here to make secret deals; I would prefer to see all the facts in all these matters come out.

Mr. Mackintosh: I am wondering and Manitobans are wondering if this is the minister of legal intricacies or is this the Minister of Justice.

Mr. Toews: Well, Madam Speaker, I will ultimately have to stand on my record. But I know what the record of the member for St. Johns is. For the first time in history, a public sector union had to stand up and give a press release to tell the people of Manitoba that he is continually misrepresenting their stand in criminal justice cases, and that is wrong.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism. It is our understanding that a number of governments in Canada have written expressing very, very serious concerns about the Multilateral Agreement on Investment and the current state of the negotiations on a draft which is now some 11 months old.

I wonder if the minister could tell the House whether Manitoba has written expressing any concerns, and if it has done so, would he table the letter that he has written so that all Manitobans might know the position of this government in regard to the current negotiations.

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): No, Madam Speaker, I have not written to the federal minister, but I met with him and told him directly on February 19.

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I would like to ask the Minister of Rural Development why this government is sending memos to the secretary-treasurer of St. Andrews saying that they are not happy with the by-laws that they have passed and are asking them to change them.

Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Madam Speaker, I am not familiar with this specific incident, but I will take it under notice and I will get back to the member with the information.

Ms. Wowchuk: Is it the government's policy to register opinions on the by-laws that municipalities pass and ask them to make changes when they are not satisfied with them or do not meet what the government expects out of them?

Mr. Derkach: Once again, Madam Speaker, in this particular instance, I am not familiar with the particular letter or the individual who sent the letter or the municipality. I have not had a complaint from the municipality in that regard, but I would be happy to look into the situation and report back to the member.

Ms. Wowchuk: I am asking the Minister of Rural Development to tell us what his government policy is. Is it the policy of government to ask municipalities to change their by-laws if they do not meet with what the government expects them to be, or does the municipality have the ability to make decisions as to how development will take place in their municipality? Who has the power, the municipality or the minister?

Mr. Derkach: Madam Speaker, in a general sense, in many of our municipalities we have what we call planning districts, and the planning districts do adopt certain principles and development plans for that planning district. In other municipalities where planning districts do not exist, we operate under the provincial policies, and these indeed are communicated with the municipalities and work hand in hand with municipalities in that respect.

Madam Speaker, once again, I would be happy to know the specifics of this case and look into it for the member.

Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, the Minister of Rural Development says that they work along with people, but we have been told that municipalities have the decision to pass by-laws and do their own planning. Why is it that the government is now sending memos to municipalities that have passed by-laws and saying that they are not satisfied with them and they want them changed? Is there something that you are really upset with, or do you not want municipalities to have any responsibility? Are you trying to take control of everything?

Mr. Derkach: The member for Swan River said that she would table the memo, and I would certainly appreciate it if she would share that memo with us because then I could reply to the specific situation that she refers to. So I will await her tabling the memo.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): To the Minister of Justice. Last Thursday the Futch family had to announce that it was suing this government because, after proposing a settlement with the government, this Minister of Justice said that they were not interested in any settlement discussions with this family.

I ask the Minister of Justice: rather than attempt to divert attention from this issue by silly attacks on some member, as Mike Harris did this month, as Ralph Klein did this month, would this government now reverse its position and engage in settlement discussions with the Futch family?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, members, senior officials of my department were involved in discussions with counsel for the Futch family over a long period of time. Unfortunately, because of certain conditions that were a condition precedent to the settlement of this case, those discussions could not proceed any further.

It was my opinion, when the matter was brought to my attention, that it would be in the best interests of all Manitobans to know exactly the facts. Therefore, this matter is, barring any settlement, proceeding to the courts where all facts will be known in front of a Queen's Bench judge. I am confident that the Futch family will have their counsel represent their interests and Crown counsel will represent the interests of the people of Manitoba generally.

Mr. Mackintosh: By his answer, is this Justice minister now telling Manitobans that they do not settle any case brought against the government, or are they just picking on victims, Madam Speaker, victims of crime in this province who are already victimized? They are just going to victimize them once further.

Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I know that the government of Manitoba settles many cases, and those settlements are always made public. That is a condition precedent. Wherever I believe the figure is over $5,000, these matters need to go to an Order-in-Council, and the matter is public. We believe that this is an issue that needs to be clarified, that all the facts need to be brought out, and that this is the appropriate way to proceed.

I want to say, once again, that this is a very difficult situation for the Futch family. We understand that. My sympathies and my government's sympathies go out to the Futch family.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, can the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism indicate what explicitly and specifically is his government's policy in regard to the Multilateral Agreement on Investment, particularly in the area of resource management, performance requirements and social services, which currently are under threat as this treaty is currently drafted? Specifically, what advice has this government given?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, first of all, one should make it clear that it falls within the federal government jurisdiction, the negotiations as they relate to MAI. I do not accept the preamble as to what impact it will have. We have stated our policy and our position to the federal government, and I will--I would expect that to be the next question--in fact, state that our position clearly states that as long as it is within the NAFTA agreement as it relates to investment, that is basically our position as it relates to the MAI.

Again, the federal government--I am sorry to take a little bit longer--have told us at our meeting that they are not going to be signing the MAI in April, as was initially anticipated. In fact, they do not know when it will in fact be accepted. The Americans have backed off, the Canadians have backed off, so it is very much in limbo at this particular time.

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Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, will the minister confirm that the intent of the MAI, as currently negotiated, is still to bind all provinces in areas in which the provinces are sovereign without the provinces' consent in law?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): No, Madam Speaker, I am not accepting that as in fact what has taken place. I have told him the federal government have in fact backed off signing of the agreement at this particular time. So it is all hypothetical that he is making reference to it at this particular time.

Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Natural Resources.

Why is this government penalizing and hurting a lot of the rural and northern communities and northern and rural members by increasing from $10 to $27.50 for mandatory safety and firearm training when the government and this minister know full well that a lot of the individuals in a lot of the remote and northern communities depend solely on hunting and fishing to feed their families, and sometimes there are four to five hunters in each family trying to feed their families on a year-round basis? This is a total tax grab of $10 to $27.50. How can this government do that to people?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Well, Madam Speaker, certainly the premise upon which the member asks his question is one that I reject totally. First of all, this is once in a lifetime normally that someone would take these training programs. Secondly, we have moved it out of government. The Manitoba Wildlife Federation will be taking over the administration.

One of the biggest issues, which I am sure the member is aware of, and I believe sympathizes with, is that we need to make sure that we do have qualified people available closer to the population which needs this, and that will be part of the results of this program.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.