Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Education. Does the honourable minister of Education (Mrs. McIntosh) have an opening statement?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): I am looking forward to this year's Estimates process. I am looking forward to the debate that I trust will focus on critical challenges and opportunities facing our education and training system. Despite significant federal cutbacks, which will continue to have an impact for a number of years, the spending level on Education is second only to Health in this province. Education is a key priority of this government, and this will be reflected in our 1997-98 Estimates. The quality of our education and training system is not determined merely by how much money we spend. We must spend the hard-earned dollars of Manitobans wisely and prudently. We must strive for excellence in education through cost-effective measures. This government's commitment to excellence, accountability and efficiency will also be reflected in this year's Estimates.

The purpose of reviewing the Estimates is to examine how dollars are allocated and the reasons for the allocations. This government has set a clear direction for education and training which will be demonstrated in the Estimates process. Therefore, I will reiterate the department's mission, guiding principles, and priorities which are the basis upon which resource allocations are made.

The mission of Manitoba Education and Training is to provide access to relevant education and training that is of high quality, affordable, available, and responsive. This will enable Manitobans to develop their individual potential and contribute to the economic, social, and cultural life of Manitoba in a global context.

In carrying out its mission, the department is guided by the following principles:

Excellence, providing a climate for education and training that fosters dedication, determination, creativity, initiative and high achievement.

Equity, ensuring fairness and providing the best possible learning opportunities for Manitobans, regardless of background or geographic location.

Openness, being receptive to ways of thinking and acting that result in ongoing renewal, meaningful involvement of people in decision making and a spirit of inclusiveness.

Responsiveness, meeting the education and training needs of individuals by taking into consideration personal background, individual characteristics and geographic location.

Choice and individual responsibility, providing alternatives to meet diverse learning needs and interests, recognizing the right and responsibility of individuals to exercise and support their choices.

Relevance, providing education and training that is current and meaningful to students and meets economic and community needs.

Integration, connecting components within and between education and training and social and economic systems in order to increase the effectiveness and efficiency of programs and services.

Accountability, ensuring that the expected educational outcomes are realized through effective and efficient use of resources.

My priorities for the department are many, and they include furtherance of education renewal; recognition of the central role of curriculum, including teaching and learning, assessment and technology; a commitment to partnership; a commitment to quality accountability and reporting to the public; well-educated teachers; increased choice; more parent, student and community involvement; improved co-ordination, program articulation, and credit transfer among institutions from kindergarten to Senior 4 and post-secondary; enhanced business, education and training partnerships; strengthened linkages between education and training and the province's economic and social development initiatives; strengthened linkages between education and training and labour market demand; a commitment to improve accessibility to our post-secondary institutions; a commitment to improve the skills of our graduates, so that they are more job ready; and many others, Mr. Chairman.

As we review the estimates, it will become evident that our resource allocation decisions for 1997 and '98 support this government's direction for education and training.

In 1997-98, we will continue the implementation of a set of initiatives for comprehensive far-reaching renewal of the education and training system in Manitoba. Much progress has been made. I look forward to continuing on this path, so that Manitobans can benefit from the enhanced educational and training opportunities available in this province.

Taking a look, Mr. Chairman, at kindergarten to Senior 4 and post-secondary initiatives, I would like to just highlight a few.

Curriculum: Students, parents, teachers, trustees and Manitobans from across the province recognize that our children need a high-quality education that equips them to be competitive in a rapidly changing world. To assure success for Manitoba's youth, the development of world-class outcomes and standards-based curriculum is key to both determining and delivering excellence in education. Although there are challenges posed by introducing rigorous curriculum and standards into the education system, challenges that some are afraid to face and meet, only by working together can we expedite the transition to a system that will better meet the needs of tomorrow's global economy.

Work continues in curriculum development and implementation for language arts and mathematics. Regional orientation in-services for kindergarten to Grade 4, Grade 5 to Grade 8 and Senior 1 English language arts and mathematics were completed in the fall of 1996. Follow-up in-services and parent information sessions took place in the spring of 1997 for kindergarten to Senior 1 English language arts and for Grades 5 to 8 and Senior 1 to Senior 4 mathematics.

Curriculum projects underway include Pan-Canadian Science and Manitoba Health Education and Physical Education. A Western Canadian Protocol Social Studies curriculum project--English and French--has been initiated, and Manitoba is the lead jurisdiction for the English curriculum.

These co-operative ventures with other provinces, Mr. Chairman, I think, underscore that we are headed in the right direction, and the naysayers who criticize us are also criticizing the other provinces when they do so. But these are moves that cross party lines. They cross provincial boundaries. They are in the best interests of education, not parochial or political ideologies. These are commonly agreed upon goals for the students of western Canada and in some places, all Canada.

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Multimedia resources are being integrated into curriculum.

Comparable development and implementation work is also being pursued in mathématiques, English language arts-immersion, anglais for Francophone students and français first language, and français-immersion curricula.

Assessment and Evaluation: Going hand in hand with the establishment of world-class curriculum is the establishment of province-wide, curriculum-based student testing. Standards testing has been introduced as a means to assess student achievement and identify areas for improvement.

The Grade 3 mathematics/mathématiques standards test was piloted in June 1996, and will be run yearly starting in June 1997. Standards tests being developed and to be piloted are Grades 3, 6, and 9 language arts, English, français, and français immersion; Grades 3 and 6 English language arts and immersion, Grades 6 and 9 mathematics/mathématiques and Grade 6 Anglais. Provincial exams will be conducted in Senior 4 language arts, Senior 4 francais, and Senior 4 mathematics/mathématiques until standards tests are fully implemented.

These standards tests of course are very much desired by the people of Manitoba. As you recall, during the election it was a major issue, one which was made very clear by the people that they wished these initiatives to take place. This first came to our attention in a concrete way during the parent forums that were held by my predecessor where 500 parents chosen at random in two separate sessions, the No. 1 thing that those parents wanted for their students was measurable standards and high academic learning.

So we reflect the public's desires as well as our own desires, and we would invite those who have differing perspectives to take a good look at what we are doing and join with us in making things better for our students.

National and international assessment activities: The School Achievement Indicators Project, SAIP, continue to take place. In January 1997 the School Achievement Indicators Project released the latest assessment completed in science.

Within and between school divisions, choice of schools will come into effect in the '97-98 school year. This will enable parents and students to choose the school that best meets their educational needs and has been extremely well received by parents who have long sought this kind of opportunity.

Adults in public schools: School divisions will receive funding for adults attending schools to complete high school graduation requirements. This demonstrates this government's commitment to lifelong learning and to ensuring that Manitobans, regardless of their age, have an opportunity to complete a basic education.

School planning is currently being piloted in approximately 80 schools in order to gather data which will be shared with other schools and school divisions. Such data will be helpful in development of planning processes and school plans. All schools will be expected to develop the first phase of the plans during the '97-98 school year, with comprehensive plans to be put in place in 1998-99. Of course, the linkage between school plans and the planning at divisional and departmental levels is critical, and I look forward to strengthening these linkages to support a coherent, effective, and accountable education system.

Learning technologies is a critical component of the education and training system, and I will work closely with education partners, including the Council on Learning Technologies , in realizing the benefits for the province. Significant accomplishments and opportunities include a project linking colleges and universities to the school network and providing infrastructure for development of high quality adult learning materials, establishment of a website for online information, a new $1-million initiative to support acquisition of hardware and software for schools, thereby improving access to computer technology for students and teachers.

I am pleased that school divisions are achieving cost savings through collaboration and partnerships with each other. My department is working with school division officials on this.

A review of special education is taking place, the results of which will be used to improve the effectiveness and efficiency of special education and to help ensure all students are able to reach their full potential.

Information on our education system is vital, reflecting how effective our educational institutions are. This includes the quality of programs, how well our students and teachers are performing and how effectively our resources are utilized. The department is involved at national and international levels. We will work with our education partners to develop relevant measures of the effectiveness of the education and training system.

The Education Information System Steering Committee is but one example of the department working with stakeholders. As part of the initial stage of the '95-96 profile of elementary and secondary education, statistics will soon be sent to school divisions and parent councils. It will provide useful descriptive information about our education system.

With regard to public schools, Mr. Chairman, this year's funding levels to public schools were announced this year at $746.5 million compared with $745 million last year. To assist school divisions in more effectively planning for the future, government also announced that at the very least the funding level would be maintained for next year, barring any unforeseen reductions in federal funding.

Other significant changes include divisions being able to keep surplus funds resulting from cost savings in the areas of operations and building maintenance, and central administration. Funds from such savings can be redirected to the classroom. Support for students at risk will be better targeted. Funding coverage will be expanded for students, including adults studying regular curriculum courses outside of standard school hours.

In terms of post-secondary, the impact of federal cutbacks continues to affect post-secondary education. Indeed, Mr. Chairman, those federal cutbacks affect all of education because their depth was so intense that it could not be confined to just one area. This government continues to see post-secondary education as a critical force for social, cultural and economic prosperity. To this end, my department has undertaken several initiatives towards supporting post-secondary education. As well, the Council on Post-secondary Education will seek ways of enhancing cost-effectiveness of the post-secondary system.

Two initiatives included in this list are the Manitoba Learning Tax Credit that will provide $17.3 million, $5.3 million more than was budgeted last year, and which is the first and only refundable tax credit in Canada that provides direct support to students and their families, and which has also been extremely well received in the field; and a new $1-million Scholarship and Bursaries Initiative, which is a matching fund that will generate up to $3 million in new scholarships and bursaries for students attending public post-secondary institutions. Both of these initiatives will ease the financial burden and reduce the debt loads faced by many of our students.

A Council on Post-Secondary Education has been formed to bring better co-ordination, articulation and planning to the post-secondary education system by having universities and community colleges brought together under a single body. A taskforce has been appointed to review the future of apprenticeship training in Manitoba. The apprenticeship system is facing a number of challenges, including the total elimination of federal funding for the purchase of in-school training, changing market conditions, and emerging technologies. Apprenticeships provide exciting career opportunities for many Manitobans. I have just received the report of the taskforce and look forward to reviewing their recommendations.

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Government is maintaining its commitment to youth programs. In addition to existing programs such as CareerStart, a new program called Partners for Careers intended to improve access to jobs for aboriginal youth, is being introduced.

It is important that young people have opportunities to learn about leadership and what the future holds for them right here in Manitoba. To this end, a Young Leaders of Tomorrow conference was held on March 8. This one-day workshop featured speakers, discussion groups, and local businesses, and was designed to encourage today's young people to get involved to participate and show them the benefits of leadership and volunteerism.

Mr. Chairman, that was a tremendous success, and the young people who attended that conference gave incredibly good feedback that we were pleased to receive, and we were delighted to have organized that conference for those very enthusiastic and talented young people.

Literacy training and literacy programming continue to be a cornerstone of Education and Training. In 1995, the government committed an additional $500,000 to literacy programming to be used over the next five years, and this will be of benefit to community-based literacy programs.

The department is planning and carrying out actions to strengthen aboriginal education. Aboriginal perspectives are being integrated into curriculum frameworks in all core subjects, and partnerships are being formed. Of course, as I mentioned earlier, there is the new Partners for Careers program.

Changes in Manitoba's welfare program have been in place for a year now. The focus is on increasing self-reliance and economic independence. The Departments of Education and Training and Family Services are working together to this end. A number of private sector and community partnerships have been developed to accomplish this objective, including the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce, Canada Summer Games Society of Brandon, TeleSpectrum Worldwide and the Manitoba Trucking Industry Education Advisory Committee, and we will continue to build on successes of this nature through this kind of initiative.

In dealing with Employment Insurance reform and the federal offer, Mr. Chairman, Canada approached the provinces regarding control over the delivery of federal Employment Insurance related programs. Negotiations have been completed and an agreement was signed on April 17, 1997. This agreement provides an opportunity to improve the responsiveness and relevance of employment and training programs.

Through my department's Better Systems initiative, the department is in the early stages of a partnership with the Department of Family Services and IBM to develop an integrated system to manage programs across both departments that share common clients. It is planned that this initiative will improve services to our clients by providing a one-stop shopping single-window approach through the use of new and enabling technologies. Future benefits would include improved client information that will help both departments to implement preventative measures in helping our clients become more self-sufficient.

The department must be both a leader and a partner in carrying out its mission and initiatives. This involves balance--local autonomy balanced with provincial direction, a need for flexibility balanced with a need for consistency, change balanced with maintaining existing strengths and striving for excellence balanced with a need for practical considerations. This is a challenge that my department has gladly accepted as it is a necessary one if Manitobans are to have the education and training system they deserve.

In closing, Mr. Chairman, I look forward to the Estimates review and the comments which I hope will be constructive and the questions which I also hope will be constructive from the honourable members opposite.

I conclude my remarks, Mr. Chairman, with that.

Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honourable minister for her opening comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for Wolseley, have an opening comment?

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): I wanted to thank the minister for her outline of the department's activities, and I think also take this opportunity, although the minister's staff are not here, to thank them all for their work.

I know that this is a department where the staff work very hard. Often they are doing two and three jobs. There has been a considerable loss of staff in this department in certain areas and particularly in the area of native studies of the Native branch of the department, as well as in some of the areas of employment, and, of course, the whole post-secondary area has changed.

So there has been a good deal of change, a loss of personnel, and staff have, I think, had to work at jobs that they sometimes do not feel qualified for, sometimes that they have to get up to speed on very quickly, and they are dealing in a very difficult educational environment as well. They also, I think, as all civil servants do, have to deal with ideologies which are not necessarily their own, and that, of course, changes with every government. The civil servant's job is, in fact, to serve the people of Manitoba in the best way they can. So I think it has been a difficult task, as it has been in other departments, and I think we should recognize that at the beginning.

I think we are also dealing in a period when there are many divisions within education, divisions of ideology, divisions of policy, serious concerns about underfunding and an enormous pressure on families to look upon education as the only option for their family's future.

In the past, I do not think that always was the case. There were many opportunities for people who had not necessarily formal education or an extensive formal education to acquire it, to go back to school. I think there were in the past many jobs which did not require the kind of formal education which is often now used as a screening process.

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(Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

So as parents look to the future, they look to, I think, a future with great anxiety. The sense of jobs that are no longer there, jobs which require increasing amounts of formal education, a formal education which is becoming increasingly difficult to obtain as fees increase and as, in some cases, places are reduced. So staff, ministers, anybody, I think, who works with the public in education is working in an area which has become increasingly fraught with pressures and anxieties about the future that it was not imbued with in the past. So the pressure is there for staff as they go out to meet with parents and teachers and students across the province.

The minister has given us a long list of the activities of the department this year, and I hope we will have time to examine most of them. Some of them I am particularly interested in, and I will give the minister an indication of some of those in a minute, but I want to put some perspective on the big picture of where I think the government is going in education. I think in the area of K to 12, the big picture that they are hoping to achieve is the introduction of a competitive market system into education, both within public education itself and between public and private education. The government's ideology, whether it is this government or other Conservative governments across the world, believes quite sincerely, I think, that the way to improve education is to introduce elements of competition between schools, between classes, between districts, and in that way, to create a market system which will inevitably have the effect of lifting every boat. The rising tide lifts every boat, I think, was the analogy that President Bush used to use.

High performing schools will survive. Those which are not high performing or high performing classes or high performing teachers, however, the government is going to define it, will not survive, and I think the government genuinely believes that that is the way to introduce improvement.

What concerns us, of course, is that this is a definition of education in very narrow terms, that the government tends to define success of schools and of education in terms of an emphasis upon examination, and examinations have their place--all teachers will tell you that throughout the ages--but I think where we see the great energy of this department and this government going is into defining education only by the results on examinations.

Schools, as they now become competitive one with another to attract students, are using a variety of means at the moment, and I am pleased to see that. I have noticed, for example, some of the advertisements that the St. James schools are using. They are including in their advertisements--drama, cadet programs, all of the things that go to make up a school that go beyond the classroom and beyond the formal education and which are so very much a part of the schools.

I am glad to see that schools, in fact, are taking upon themselves the opportunity to go beyond what I see as the government's very narrow emphasis upon examinations and upon league standings, upon tables of results such as the government creates, and I think chooses to create deliberately, and it is the way in which it releases those results and the way in which the minister also spoke about them, too.

Our concern is that this is a narrow way of defining education. It is one way that parents would want to consider, but it is not the only way, and whether it is between public or private or whether it is in the public system itself, the move to create that kind of market system is not the way to distribute the social goods of a society in a fair and equitable manner. The market does distribute consumer goods in an efficient manner. I will not say it is in a fair manner, but it does it efficiently, but does it--this is the broader question, I think, that the government, by its policies, is answering in both health and education. It is attempting to use the market to distribute what should be considered social goods.

School choice is part of this and the minister has made reference to it as one of the things which she is very pleased with this year in the government's policy, and I would say that the jury is still out on that. I would not be so hasty to run to that conclusion. Many school divisions have had school choice. Winnipeg No. 1, for example, has had school choice and a number of other urban divisions have, and so it has been long established there. As the Norrie report suggested, there has been school choice of a certain type across school boundaries, 200 or 300 students a year across Manitoba.

But what is being introduced is a school choice which, I think, carries dangers with it. The minister knows of these; I have spoken of them before. Our concerns are for school choice in areas where there are small schools, where there are boundaries of divisions, and where a couple of families--and sometimes it does come to that--a couple of families with four or five children between them make a choice to remove themselves from one school, and, in effect, they have made the choice for everyone.

So I would like to have seen guidelines for small schools and some consideration of the dangers in some rural areas of school choice. But, as I say, I think the jury is out on that. We will see what the impact is over the next four or five years. There are limits on school choice, of course. There are natural limits, and, again, within the market system there are natural limits. If the school does well because it has small classes, because it has a particular homey atmosphere, it has a particular kind of ethos, then the admittance submissions of many, many students to a school like that, of course, are going to change all that.

So there are limits in some cases to the number of students that schools can accept, and that is the point at which then they can become highly selective. As we know, in the end, in these school choice systems where they do work on a very wide scale--and I am not convinced that they are actually going to in Manitoba, but we will see--in the end the schools end up selecting the parents and the students rather than vice versa. That is one of the dangers, and it is one of the ones I have drawn to the government's attention before.

I do not think we are going to see the results of that for a number of years yet, so my enthusiasm is perhaps tempered by some of those concerns for rural divisions as well as for the ultimate ends that might result from that.

The government at the same time, I think, if we are still looking at the big picture, has accompanied its attempt to introduce a market system by considerable amount of new regulation and new bills which increase the minister's role. There is that deceptive sense, I think, amongst Manitobans that the government has been a decentralizing government that has devolved responsibilities to trustees and increasingly to parent councils. I think increasingly people are recognizing that, although that has been the public face of the government, within regulation and within the workings of parent councils, the government has become quite centralizing at the same time; and, from the perspective of some people, quite prescriptive regulations are being offered in some areas.

A narrower curriculum, I believe, is something which continues to be a danger for Manitoba students. There are, as the minister knows, concerns in Manitoba about the music curriculum, about the curriculum in social studies, about the curriculum in home economics and in industrial arts. I think different divisions have dealt with these differently, and there are different concerns in each area. But there is generally a concern at the school level and at parents' level about the rapid introduction of new curriculum without adequate supports. So the speed at which new curriculum is being introduced, particularly in certain subject areas, and what is perceived by the field to be an absence of support, both in material terms and in training terms for that new curriculum, I think, continue to give people some misgivings about the government's purpose in introducing new curriculum so rapidly.

This is not to say that the new curricula are not welcomed. I think every generation, whether it is within schools--I imagine the generations are smaller; we are looking at seven to 10 years--every generation in Manitoba has renewed its curriculum. Some would argue very passionately that in the past Manitoba Education has renewed curriculum in a much more collegial sense, a much more co-operative sense.

I am sure the minister is aware of this. There are people in the field in Manitoba who believe that new curriculums are being forced upon them, and they have not had the same kind of opportunity to participate in the testing and the modelling of that curriculum as they have had in the past. They feel divorced from it; they feel separated from it. That is something I think that the minister is aware of. It is something that any department should have concerns about, because of course it does affect how this is dealt with in the classroom as well. The greater commitment that teachers have to the curriculum, the greater sense they will have of being part of something new and something very valuable to their students.

The curriculum itself, as I suggested, much of the new curriculum I think is welcomed as new curriculums always are. That is why I think the minister may need to slow down a bit to ensure that that sense of participation is there. I hear very good things about the new math curriculum. I hear more criticism perhaps of the English curriculum, particularly of the loss of hours in the senior level. So in each of the new curriculums, as we look at them, I think perhaps we will have some comments to make on those.

The growth of private schools, private school education, and the changes in funding to private schools are of concern to Manitobans. The lack of public accountability of private schools is of concern. The minister made reference to the booklet that she has published, at least I think that is what she was referring to, to the profile of Manitoba education. There were a number of criticisms made to me at the time that this was only public education, that it did not give the same level of accountability or profile to private education but, given the amount of public money which is now being devoted to private school education, I think the minister will need to take a second look at that.

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I remember in Estimates last time she had--no, perhaps it was not in Estimates. I think it was when we were discussing bills. When we looked at the bill which provided for new forms of record keeping, accountability, and freedom of information on school records to parents, I asked for the same, in fact moved a number of amendments suggesting that this be made the same for private schools, given the amount of public money which is now going into private schools, given cases where parents in private schools have had difficulty getting the kind of information which ought to be normally available.

The minister at that time promised me that she would be introducing a whole set of regulations dealing with exactly those issues for private schools. So I look forward to discussing those and perhaps in the broader context of how much public information ought the public of Manitoba have for the amount of money that they are putting into private schools.

I would think that the minister should be concerned about what might politely be put as the demoralization of teachers, that sense of apartness from the department, the sense that they are no longer a valued partner in education, the sense that their professionalism has been diminished. There are a number of ways that this can be changed. I think it is a tough job for any minister to do, and it is particularly difficult, because I think this minister had an agenda that was presented to her. She had an agenda which particularly was to deal with both curriculum and teachers. I think what has happened is that it has become increasingly difficult for a minister who has been involved in those kinds of government policies to bridge the gap that is needed to be bridged to teachers.

What ought to be a sense of optimism in schools at the end of the 20th Century I do not think is there. I think the educational opportunities, and I know the minister agrees with this, have never been greater. The enormous international opportunities for education that we have are as a result of the Internet, of widely increased publishing activities, and of a school population which, through television and through other means, often travel, and of an increasingly diversified community around themselves. The school population is much more aware than, say, 10 years ago about international affairs and about the place of Manitoba in that.

So for so many reasons, the changing nature of Manitoba, the changing nature of educational opportunities, I think we ought to be looking for it, ought to be a measurement of Manitoba education, that that sense of optimism be there, but I do not think it is. I think the department as a whole has to look at ways to try and re-create that for Manitoba students.

Post-secondary education, of course, the minister has made reference to, on a number of occasions, the withdrawal of federal funds, and she is absolutely right. That is one of the most crucial aspects underlying the difficulties facing all institutions of post-secondary education in Manitoba. We simply cannot take that amount of money out of the system that quickly and expect that you are going to have the same kind of quality, the same number of students, the same accessibility that you had five and 10 years ago. It is an enormous shift, and the federal government should be held accountable for that at every possible occasion.

I notice in this election that the federal government is talking about new initiatives and student loans. I would be interested in exploring with the minister what the cost of that is to the province. My sense is that there are costs to the province in that, and I wonder if the department has looked at those.

The loss of federal funding goes beyond simply the post-secondary transfers, but it also includes research. From the economic perspective of Manitoba, the loss of those research funds from all of the granting agencies, I think, has been quite serious. It has introduced an unpredictability that, say, was not there seven and 10 years ago. It has introduced a much more narrow basis for funding. It is one where every province has found it very, very difficult to pick up the slack. They are not numbers which easily come together. You have to look at each of the major funding agencies. You have to look at the funding for research throughout Health, through Agriculture, through Environment. It is not a number that you can put your fingers on, but it has affected Manitoba, and it has affected the economic future of Manitoba, as well as the kinds of research concentrations that we might have been able to have introduced. It is a very, very serious issue, and it has its effect in the daily lives of students, as we look at the laboratories that are available to them, the equipment that is available, the number of graduate students who are available as lab assistants and as people who might make their potential home in Manitoba.

The minister has made reference to the Council on Post-Secondary Education, something which we welcomed as long overdue and is now several years, three or four years I think since Roblin reported on that. That council and its goal of co-ordinating post-secondary education in Manitoba I think is a useful one, one we applauded at the time and lamented over a number of occasions the long delays that there were in appointing that. I hope that the opportunities of those last few years are not going to be counted against Manitoba, but I do think that there has been a sense of lost momentum and lost opportunities in post-secondary education, in fact, since 1988.

In the community colleges, I think there are some very serious financial concerns. Again, the reduction of federal funding has been crucial, leading to unpredictability and apprenticeship, in the unemployment insurance seats that used to be bought at community colleges and, of course, the withdrawal of the federal government entirely from so many areas of apprenticeship has put a burden upon the colleges and upon the government to meet those needs very, very quickly. I think it is an opportunity that both the government and the community colleges are looking forward to take on, so I am not burdened in the sense of the speed at which institutions have to adapt.

What concerns me is the fact that we have not had this council in place. We have had some very immediate changes to adapt to from the federal government's perspective, and I think we might be in danger--and this is an area I want to explore with the minister--of getting a very haphazard approach to apprenticeship. The minister made reference to the report that she is looking at. What concerns me is that things may be moving much faster than the report. I do not know what her timetable is for examining that report, but I believe that courses in community colleges, the way students are approaching them, the way the colleges are, are moving faster than perhaps the council is able to deal with.

There are other areas that are important. The minister has given us a long list of the programs for youth and for adult training. My general sense of those has been that we have very little information about them, just as we have very little information on Workforce 2000, an area that I do not think the minister mentioned this time, but they do tend to be a substitution of short-term training for what used to be longer-term training programs within the department. The emphasis upon short-term low-wage jobs is one of concern. It is an area I want to explore again with the minister.

The special needs review, if we were to look at some of the specific things, I would want to pick out the special needs review which has been in process now for, oh, it must be almost four years. The minister is looking for a report by the end of the year. In fact, I believe that was noted in the throne speech and we, too, and many parents involved with special needs education, will be looking forward to that review.

The minister has in place now a consultant who will lead the research and convene whatever meetings are to be convened, but our concerns on that are that it is now end of May, the minister expects a report by, say, November at the latest. We are looking at a very short period of time for an area of significant spending and a significant area of increased spending in the department. As far as I know, there is no work plan yet in place, so we are looking, let us say even charitably, we are looking at another three to four weeks before anything is underway. Again, reflecting the concerns of my constituents, as well as other people in education, the three and four-year delays that we have seen on special needs education, I think, has not been a help to that sense of optimism or to the sense of the participation of parents and teachers in Manitoba in the new proposals for Education in Manitoba.

I noted that the Auditor had concerns about Manitoba Education, not in a financial sense but in the sense of forms of reporting, and it is something I wanted to go over, a few of those with the minister later on. I am particularly interested in the private vocational schools, private school accountability, as well as Distance Education. Distance Education comes toward the end of the Estimates book. In the past, we have not quite ever got to it. I look forward to dealing with MERLIN, with the post-secondary distance education, about which I have a number of concerns, as well as the availability, the equity of the availability of information technology across schools in Manitoba.

Home schooling, flexible learning, these are all constituencies within Education that I have heard from in the past year, as I am sure the minister has. I will be raising their concerns during these Estimates.

And finally, the labour market issues that the minister made reference to are worth a debate in the House. We have had some discussion of it in the very limited form of Question Period, but I would like to explore some of the direction that the department would like to take, the new labour market agreement that it recently agreed to with the federal government, particularly, I think the minister made reference to it, to the linkages between schools and the labour market, the programs that the department envisages as well as the role of the department in information, in providing to schools information in developing areas of employment, as well as in developing skill needs, not just in Manitoba but across the country, and because, of course, what we are losing again with the federal withdrawal from this area is that sense of a national labour market, the sense of opportunities that may be developing up, short periods of time, longer periods of time across the country.

* (1750)

That is one of the senses of being a nation, not just of language, not just of region or of culture or of farm or urban way of life, but the sense that our students know of opportunities across the country, are able to use them in an educational sense, as well as look to them for employment purposes as well, and Manitoba offers them the best of that world across the whole of the nation. So I think much of this post-secondary is coming down to a real sense of lament for federal withdrawal, a sense of the implications not just for the education system but for a sense of nation. Each of them I think has that. The department in some cases has welcomed that devolution I think in terms of labour market training. The government welcomed it. In post-secondary education and I assume in research as well, the provincial government has not welcomed it, but in each case the government has to move very quickly to meet the needs of students in Manitoba. Those are some of the things that we will be looking at.

(Mr. Chairperson in the Chair)

Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honourable member for her statement. Seeing as the hour is now about seven minutes to six, by the time we got the staff down for questioning I think it would probably be past six o'clock. How about if the committee recesses until six o'clock and at that time we will adjourn? Is that the will of the committee? [agreed]

We will recess until just before six o'clock.

The committee recessed at 5:51 p.m.

The committee resumed at 6 p.m.

Mr. Chairperson: The hour now being six o'clock, committee rise. Call in the Speaker.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Marcel Laurendeau): The hour being six o'clock, this House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m. (Thursday). Thank you and good night.