Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order.
This afternoon, this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Sport. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 28.1.(a) on page 122 of the Estimates book. Shall this item pass?
Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I think I am going to start off where we left off just now in Question Period. I have a copy of the Metro news article for the minister-I do not know if he has seen that-which names at least one school there that issued letters requiring that participants in a varsity boys basketball team are going to have to cover costs related to substitute teachers that were required to replace the teacher-coaches who were accompanying them on a tournament.
Yesterday, the minister was saying he did not have any information to confirm that, and from the answers today in the House, I am not sure what kind of research his staff or the Department of Education has done. This has been an issue since April 23. It was raised in the House April 28, so it is not that new. I was concerned by his answer in the House claiming that this does not in any way go against the sport policy. I am not sure where that has come from since I asked the question yesterday. I am wanting to see if the minister is now going to reconsider his response after seeing this newspaper clipping, and if he can tell me what steps they have taken to investigate this since April 28, when it was raised in the House.
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister responsible for Sport): Mr. Chairman, the response I gave to the member in Question Period earlier today is still the same one in terms of no conflicts with any of our policies, certainly at this particular point in time. I think this one article in the Metro One is far from clear in terms of what is, in effect, taking place in this particular school division. As I have indicated to her, we will get specific facts and details as to just what has transpired and what the options being put forward to the school and the athletes are.
As I responded to her earlier, and we checked again today with the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association, this issue has not been raised with them. Obviously, they have not raised it with us, either with Sport Manitoba or with officials within my department and have expressed no concerns about this issue at this particular point in time, nor have individual schools, parents, athletes, directly to myself or to Sport Manitoba or to the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association. This is an issue raised in one article in the Metro One. That is the only documentation pointing to this issue whatsoever, and as I indicated to the member yesterday, we will certainly get the facts, and based on the facts we will then determine whether or not it requires any comment or action from us.
Ms. Cerilli: I would like for the minister, first of all, to explain to me-he said that this does not contravene the sport policy for Manitoba in any way. What does it mean then in the sport policy, to develop appropriate mechanisms and programs to assist educators involved in sport, if that is not to ensure that they have every opportunity to coach and to then be absent from their class if that is necessary for them to coach or to officiate or any other role they might play related to sport?
I cannot believe, frankly, that he is claiming that this would not violate this sport policy. It also raises other questions in terms of how this policy is going to be implemented, but I want the minister to explain to me how this practice of having sports teams have to now fundraise to pay for substitute teachers is not going to compromise the objectives that they have. The government of Manitoba recognizes the education system as an integral component of the sport delivery system in Manitoba and will encourage the educational system to enhance the role of sport in education and education in sport. Either the minister has no comprehension of discrimination based on economic status or it is incomprehensible that he can say that this is not a violation of their policy. I do not know which it is, but I want him to explain it.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, irrespective of what kinds of questions the member for Radisson asks or what irrelevant rhetoric she puts on the record, there is nothing to indicate that there is a conflict with the sport policy document that is in place today. Again, I think the prudent thing to do, the responsible thing, would be to get the absolute facts behind what is happening in Assiniboine South School Division and with Oak Park.
She raises the issue of discrimination based on economic status. I know she has certainly participated in sport, followed sport to some extent, and sport in general. Most sport governing bodies, most sport organizations do their utmost to ensure that athletes are not precluded based on economic status. There are programs through Sport Manitoba that assist with support for families that are in economic situations that require support, and I know from first-hand involvement with some sports, they do their absolute utmost not to have children precluded from participating based on their economic status. They want young people, they want youth participating and they will do whatever they can to overcome any hurdles that that may cause.
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Having said all of that, most of our sports, to varying degrees, have various charges whether it is related to, in this particular case they refer to some costs related to transportation services, hotel accommodations, obviously most sports have costs in terms of equipment, in terms of facilities, all of those kinds of things. It is certainly not uncommon for sport to charge a fee relative to the cost of providing that sport, but sport in general does a very good job of ensuring access and reducing and minimizing any impediment caused by economic situations.
Ms. Cerilli: I beg to differ with that statement, because the minister should take a look at the availability of sport to low income people in this province. The issue I want to deal with right now is, is the minister saying that this is an acceptable practice, to have student athletes have to fundraise to pay for substitute teachers? Is he saying that he thinks this is one of the acceptable costs that go along with participating in sport now?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I did not say that, and I do not need the member for Radisson to attempt to put any words into my mouth. I did indicate that we will get the absolute facts as to what is taking place in this school division. I have indicated to her, other than her one story from the Metro One newspaper and no other documentation, no other information, the other organizations that are directly involved in high school athletics have brought no information relative to this to our attention and have not expressed any concerns at this particular point in time, in terms of access, in terms of opportunities and so on.
In terms of education, I know there are some areas that focus on support for what they would call sanctioned sports or sanctioned tournaments within education, and if a coach is participating in a noneducation sanctioned activity, tournament or sport, that they might then have to make some arrangements relative to their substitute. So again, it is not clear in terms of this particular tournament how it related back to whether it is a sanctioned tournament by Assiniboine Park, what the relationship is with Assiniboine Park with this tournament and I think the most responsible thing I can do is to get some facts on this information and then judge the situation based on facts.
Ms. Cerilli: Well, the minister is trying to again deal with these concerns and problem areas by saying that he cannot deal with the issue right now because he is going to find excuses in saying he does not have enough information. But we are dealing with policy matters here, and policy matters do not have to have specific detailed information. We are dealing with policy statements that he, his government was involved in developing.
I want to deal with the issue where you are claiming that because you have not heard any complaints by schools or school divisions or parents or the High Schools Athletic Association-I do not think that washes because if what athletes and teams are being told is it is either this or nothing, it is either you finance your teams including this fee or you do not get to participate, then you put the sports in a very difficult situation. I am sure there are participants in sport in Manitoba, in high school sport that would have serious problems with this if this is going to be a trend.
It is interesting that it is first occurring in Oak Park where I would suggest to the minister there is going to be less economic hardship than some of the other areas of our province, and I would think that other school divisions would not even attempt to have a policy like this because they know that it would destroy their sports programs. They know it would destroy their intercollegiate sport programs. I understand the minister when he is suggesting that if this is a sport that is not part of a school division program, it may be a different story. If that is what he is saying he wants to clarify, that is acceptable. But I am talking about a more general policy trend, that if this is going to occur in sanctioned Manitoba high school athletic events, is the minister prepared to have the costs for substitute teachers to pay for absent coaches, teacher-coaches, if that is acceptable? I am asking him that very direct policy question, which is what we are here to address in these Estimates.
I know that the minister sort of has his prearranged responses that he has given today and in the House, but I want to ask him specifically on that policy issue.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I want to assure the member for Radisson there were no prearranged responses to any question she might have. I wish I could read her mind, but I cannot, and I could not necessarily anticipate what question she might ask me or any other minister. But I think the most indicative thing of her last rambling was she used the word "if" four or five times, and that is the key here, because she is asking hypothetical questions; she is asking if this, if that, if this. We could take that kind of discussion to its absolute extreme in terms of policy decisions of government or issues that might face governments. [interjection]
It is not weak at all. Go back and read Hansard in terms of your very specific question. If this, if that, if this, all hypothetical questions. We have one story from one newspaper that is not very clear in terms of what it is providing. What we will do is we will get the facts. If we determine there to be any conflict with our sport policy based on what I have seen today, and I do not think there is conflict, but we will determine that. We will get the facts, and from that we will decide whether or not it requires any further action on our part.
Ms. Cerilli: It is very slick of you, sliding around in that fashion, but I think that this is unacceptable. For you to come to Estimates and continue to have those types of answers is not serving the purpose of what we are here to do. If I ask a policy question and I use the word "if," because you are not accepting the evidence that is there in black and white in a newspaper article, I will not use the word "if," and I will not accept your answer of saying there is not enough evidence that it is occurring.
Now, Mr. Minister, the policy statement is very clear. I want you to tell me how you claim to be able to implement a policy like this which is going to have to be implemented by a school division, when your Minister of Education (Mrs. McIntosh) continues to claim that she has no jurisdiction when school divisions try to, or do, in fact, cut certain programs or institute certain user fees.
How do you claim to have the ability to fulfill your policy, as I have quoted earlier. I was not putting any convoluted ramblings on the record; I was reading from your policy which states you will encourage the education system to enhance the role of sport in education. Those are your words. How are you going to implement that in a school division?
Mr. Stefanson: Well, Mr. Chairman, this is interesting. The member for Radisson can find my answers as unacceptable as she wants. The reality is my answers are what they are, and she should be accepting and appreciating that from our point of view, the most responsible thing to do is to get the facts, and I keep reminding her. I know she does not very often like to operate from facts. It is usually from innuendo and from lack of information.
I think the responsible thing would be to get-[interjection] Well, she refers to cheap. She should just reread her comments for the last 15 minutes if she wants to look up the definition of the word "cheap," and she will see it in black and white, Mr. Chairman. I have indicated to her very clearly, we will get the facts. That is a responsible thing to do as government, which we have to do because we are in government, and based on those facts, we will determine whether or not it requires any other action or comment from us.
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Ms. Cerilli: Are you going to answer the question about the policy implemented in your sport policy document in a school division? That was my specific question. How do you implement your sport policy in a school division?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, sport policy is dealt with through the Department of Education and through the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association. The Board of Directors of Sport Manitoba have one representative on the board selected from the field of the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association and the universities and the Physical Education Teachers Association.
Ms. Cerilli: So how does it work? How do they ensure that schools in the education system are going to be following your sport policy?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, one of the key vehicles is the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association. That certainly is a major part of their responsibility, and we work directly with them.
Ms. Cerilli: So the minister is saying that it is up to the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association to ensure that Section 7 of his sport policy is followed by the education system.
Mr. Stefanson: No, I am not quite saying that, Mr. Chairman. I am saying that they are a governing body for high school athletics. They are well aware of the sport policy document. They had involvement and participation in its preparation. So they certainly are one vehicle to assess the relationship between sport policy and implementation within the educational system.
As well, the Department of Education is aware of the sport policy, and there is liaison with the Department of Education. So, through those vehicles, Education is aware of the sport policy, and then Sport Manitoba, of course, is the governing body for sport that has an overall responsibility to assess the implementation of the sport policy.
Ms. Cerilli: We are still a little vague here. How does it work? How, when you have a situation like this, which you are now investigating, where you have said one thing that is clear, that there is a liaison between Sport and Education, who does that liaising in both Sport Manitoba or any other staff that you are involved with, and who is involved in Education?
Then, from there, what is the role of government in dealing with the school division, because they are the ones that are actually-as the Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. McIntosh), I am sure, would tell us-they are the ones that are responsible in dealing with any particular school in the school division?
Mr. Stefanson: First of all, Mr. Chairman, I am not sure it is fair to say I am now investigating this situation at Oak Park. We are certainly going to start by obtaining the facts from the school and the school division, but most importantly, there is a staffperson within Sport Manitoba that liaisons with Education. There also is the board member I referred to that is selected from a combination of the organizations like the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association, the universities and the Phys Ed Teachers Association, so those are the vehicles of the liaising back with the Department of Education with bodies like the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association and so on.
Ms. Cerilli: I am getting really concerned with the Minister for Sport here because it seems that you have a very nice policy, sport policy, in dealing with education and sport but it is pretty unclear how it is actually going to be implemented into any given school and school division and how you are going to follow up. So now you are saying that there is a board member on the Sport Manitoba board. Would they be involved with having to liaise with all of the hundreds of schools we have in the province? I mean, that is impossible so there has to be a better way.
I am wondering if the minister has anything more that he can tell us to ensure that a type of practice-and what I would think is really going to have serious implications for the willingness of teacher coaches to participate in high school or any level of school sport if they are then going to have to be involved with their team in raising funds to pay for substitute teachers who are working in their absence, so it seems like, well, although we have a policy on paper, that the government is going to have difficulty in implementing this policy at the school and school division level. I am wanting for him to clarify for me specifically how that works.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I am sure the member recognizes that we have one of the most comprehensive sport policies in all of Canada. In terms of its implementation, there are a few vehicles in terms of its interaction with the educational system. First and foremost, as I have already told her, is the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association and they have the kind of ongoing contact that she refers to with individual high schools. They are the sport governing body for Manitoba high school athletics. They receive funding from Sport Manitoba for their organization to provide that service so they are a very direct link into high school athletics and certainly provide that service to sport in Manitoba.
There also is the link with the Department of Education, in terms of their awareness of the sport policy and the issues surrounding the sport policy in Manitoba, so those are the two vehicles for implementation of the sport policy. As I have indicated to her, in terms of our discussions with Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association, the one specific issue that she has brought up here today has not been raised by them but, more importantly, my understanding is they are very supportive of the sport policy and how sport is being treated here in Manitoba through the educational system and sport in general.
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Ms. Cerilli: I want the minister to know that I support the sport policy, but it is not worth much if we cannot ensure that it is going to be implemented, and that is what I am getting at. The minister has now clearly stated that there are three vehicles for doing that and it is going to be interesting. I have contacted the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association on this issue and I sent them the same article that the minister has. I have been waiting for them to get back to me and I am wondering if they are aware of this. I am interested to hear what they have to say about the minister's perception of their role in terms of policy throughout school divisions in Manitoba, because I do not know if they have the resources or the wherewithal to be able to do that.
The minister has not mentioned the department heads for physical education in all the school divisions. He has not mentioned any of the consultants and their having a role in this which have some link with the Department of Education. In the past, there was a physical education consultant in the Department of Education and that person, I think, is gone. I do not know if they have ever been replaced. So there are some problems here, and I am going to be following this up, as the minister has said he will be, in the future.
This has raised a whole new area of concern, and already athletics are unattainable due to financial limitations for a lot of Manitobans, particularly young people. This kind of practice of having teacher coaches have their replacements paid as part of the cost to sport is going to be a real hardship. Again, the minister knows my experience, and I can tell you that this is a huge issue. I am not going to use the word "if." I believe this has occurred. We will see the implications it has for Manitoba high school athletic programs. I think it is a direct contravention of the stated policy of this government, and I think the government has to figure out how their policy is going to be implemented in all the school divisions so that sport is not compromised due to the financial constraints that the school divisions are under. I recognize they are looking for ways that they can cut costs and save money, and there is a real problem occurring in the school system because of the increases of user fees in a number of activities.
This is not just a problem for sport. A number of activities, drama, band, are having increased user fees attached to them. I know that sports teams are suffering from this. They are having to raise more and more finances on their own. I appreciate the minister has said there are some programs for scholarships, but they do not address the day-to-day costs of transportation, of equipment, of the costs that are incurred by the vast majority of young people participating in sport, particularly at the high school level. More and more equipment is having to be supplied individually, and this is a huge concern. I think that certain areas of Winnipeg in particular will not be able to participate to the level that they want to if they are now having to cover the costs for substitute coach teachers, teacher coaches.
I do not know if the minister wants to comment any more on that. I am quite willing to move on to another issue considering the time.
Mr. Stefanson: I guess the only concern I have is, again, I think what I would class as the member's exaggeration where she starts to talk about problems here and athletics being unattainable and sport teams suffering and so on. I know on a comparative basis within Canada, we on a per capita fund at amongst the highest levels of the provinces in Canada for sport. Certainly in terms of my involvement with sport and my travels, I get very few criticisms about our funding level for sport either from people directly involved in sporting organizations or just the public in general. I think there is a recognition that we certainly are very supportive of sport. We fund it to a very significant level.
Having said that, are there some areas that need to be addressed, areas that should be improved and so on? Absolutely. I think that is true of most areas of government and elsewhere. So certainly there are things we should be continuing to do, areas we should be continuing to improve in terms of delivery of sport, in terms of access to sport and so on, because I think the member and I, over the course of the next two hours or three hours or however long we go, or three days, will probably agree to disagree on a lot of issues but we probably can both agree on the merits of sport.
With that, Mr. Chairman, I do not think we need to feel that there are major problems, major shortages, that our funding is certainly very significant, but there are certainly some challenges for sport in the years ahead.
Ms. Cerilli: I guess I wanted to just follow up by asking the minister to collect some more data and information for me, because I really believe that the cuts that this government has levied to Education are really affecting high school sport, and right now that is what we are talking about. We are talking about sport in education at the high school and junior high level. I open it up to junior high as well.
I would think that there are fewer teachers now who are willing and able to coach high school teams, because teachers are being stretched to the limit. I would think that if the minister would do some research on that he would find that is the case, that there is a trend that a number of teachers are saying, no, I cannot take on yet another duty associated with the school.
I think this government, which a few years back tried to eliminate completely physical education at the high school level as a required credit, has done damage to the morale of a number of the physical education and other teachers who coach and participate in athletics. I think that even though Manitoba government as a whole may invest in sport to a very comparable level in Canada, what is happening at the high school level, that is not the case. When we were looking into this whole issue of the fees being charged to teams for substitute teachers, we were looking at the number of programs other than the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association that directly go to support high school athletics from the provincial government, and there are very few. I know one of the programs that used to exist through the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association has been eliminated, and that is the drug awareness program.
There is not a lot of support there for coaches in particular who are teachers, and they are really feeling the pinch. They are having to pay for more and more costs in terms of transportation and all sorts of other additional fees, and now this potentially could be the thin edge of the wedge in the door in a new practice of charging for substitute teachers.
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The minister said I may be exaggerating the issue, but we want to catch these kinds of things at the beginning of the problem and not at the end when it has become a real detriment to the development of sport at that developing high school level and school level. Those are the concerns that I am bringing to the table today, and I hope that the minister shares my concern in this, that there is a problem at the high school level in terms of the availability of coaches and volunteers, officials and funding, and that there has been an increased pressure for more fundraising to be done.
Things that I would suggest in my day were more likely to be provided by a school division are no longer provided, and student athletes are having to pay more and more costs. This is reducing the number that can participate. It is reducing the number that are then able to develop and become more involved at the higher levels of sport. I would think that is a big concern for Sport Manitoba, and it should be a big concern of the Minister for Sport.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I am not sure I can accept at face value a lot of the comments that the member makes about her perception of the problems at the high school level. I think there has been in some areas an expansion of sports in high school in particular. Although it is getting to be a few years now, I guess I think most particularly of hockey. But there has been some expansion of sports at the high school level, which has created a greater demand for coaches across the board, which has led I think to the use of some parents, some other people to help with coaching outside of teachers directly, which I do not think is necessarily a bad thing in terms of including either parents or other people from the community to assist with coaching hockey teams or whatever school team it might be.
In fact, on an overall basis, I think as the schools are becoming more and more active in more varied sports, that is a positive thing, that they are a natural vehicle for sport activities, for utilization of their facilities and so on.
I am not aware that there is a problem with a shortage of coaches within our high school system, that coaches are still coming forward. I still believe that the vast majority of teachers who also want to be coaches will find the time to do that because it is important to them in terms of the service they provide to the students and in terms of what they see their role being. I have all the confidence in the world that our educational system with our teachers will continue to provide the coaches that are needed for volleyball teams, basketball teams, whatever it might be, but I think there always is a challenge to find coaches. I think some of the approaches that the schools are using to include other people from the communities are a healthy thing as well.
So, Mr. Chairman, I am not aware that it is a major problem, but I think I do agree with the member that high school athletics are extremely important, and we have to be sure that we always do have appropriate numbers of coaches and coaches with the proper training and so on.
Ms. Cerilli: Well, I must say that this minister is one of the best at putting his spin on an issue. Now, I asked questions about the reduction in the number of teachers willing and able to coach and you said that those who were willing, you think, are doing a great job. I do not disagree. I think they are doing a great job, and I know they are doing a great job under horrendous circumstances.
But I have talked to numbers of teachers and coaches who-especially as this government was cutting professional development days as you were reducing salaries and, at the same time, asking teachers to teach more classes, you were forcing school divisions to make cuts to teachers' salaries. I know in River East School Division all the teachers agreed that they were going to withdraw from extracurricular activities, period, in protest of this government and the school division being forced to take action, as I have just described, in terms of negotiations with teachers.
So I am wanting to see if the minister is interested in looking at this area, because I think I am correct. I am certain that there are now teachers who no longer either coach as many teams or are willing to coach at all because of the pressures put on them inside the classroom and in other school duties. They feel like they are being squeezed, Mr. Minister, and I think that this is affecting sport. I know it is affecting sport. So I am wanting to see if you would agree to do a study or if you know if this is being done through any other agency in the province to look at the number of teachers who are doing extracurricular activities. This is a big issue among teachers, and I know that two of my colleagues have looked at this issue in their own school division, and teachers are listing the amount of time that they spend on extracurricular activities like coaching, as well as the amount of money they have to spend out of their own pocket related to school activities.
So I am asking if you are interested in this area, if you are willing to take a look at these trends in the area of the number of teachers coaching and participating in athletics programs in the different schools and if there is a reduction in the number of hours, the number of teachers, the number of sports that they are being able to coach in.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, once again, the member made some comments that I do not think were entirely accurate, although she sort of started correcting some of them as she concluded her remarks I think when she suggested that we were reducing teachers' salaries. I think she knows full well that teachers' salaries are not negotiated on a province-wide basis. They are done individually with individual school divisions and any compensation decisions for teachers are decisions made by the individual school boards in all of the school divisions across Manitoba.
Without taking away from the importance of discussing high school athletics, coaching availability, proper training for coaches, again, this is not a concern that has been brought to our attention by an organization like the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association which is the overall governing body for high school athletics. I am sure coaches at the high school level, like people in all walks of life, like coaches in other areas, I think-it is sort of a trend of society, in many ways, that because of a lot of the restructuring that has taken place in the last many years in Canada and elsewhere, we all take on an awful lot more activities, and I think a lot of our teachers have done that and they are doing it very well.
I am a firm believer that people who are in the education system and are teachers and are interested in coaching and want to coach do it and find the time to do it, just as people in other professions and other jobs find the time to do the things that they believe are important. So I think we are fortunate to be well served by the teachers and people in the education system who come forward and take on the coaching of all of these teams.
Having said all of that, I am certainly prepared to have a dialogue with the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association and basically with the educational community in general in terms of, is the Manitoba coaching association helping to meet their needs in terms of coaching techniques, coaching seminars and so on and to determine how well they are all functioning in terms of the challenges and responsibilities that they have.
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I am certainly now prepared to pursue that, because I think the end objective is the same, that we wanted to be sure we have coaches in our educational system. We want to be sure they have the appropriate training, if necessary, in terms of coaching particular programs and so on. I am certainly prepared to have those discussions and to look into the issue, but I do not in any way acknowledge that there is a major problem out there.
Ms. Cerilli: I think that we will find out that there is a problem, but I want to go back and talk more about the Pan Am Games now because time is moving on.
Mr. Stefanson: I just want to correct some information that was provided yesterday when asked a question about the numbers of sports for the Pan Am Games in 1999 in Winnipeg in Manitoba, I believe I informed the member that there were 42 sports. There are, in fact, 41 sports.
She also asked the question about the numbers of sports at the Commonwealth Games in Victoria, and I believe I informed her that there were 22. There were, in fact, 11.
Ms. Cerilli: I was hoping that the minister would also let me know that he now has some other information for me in terms of some documents I was asking questions about yesterday, because I was surprised and concerned that today in the Free Press it seems like Scott Taylor has more information than the minister does about the television contract for the Pan Am Games. If the minister has not yet seen it, there was an article close to the front section of the paper by Tim Campbell, but in the Sports section there was a more detailed article by Scott Taylor which went into some of the financial details of the contract for the television rights to the games.
I am wondering if the minister has had a chance to follow up on the questions that I asked yesterday, and if he can now provide me with more detailed information about the financial aspects of that contract.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I am told in discussions as early as this morning with the Pan Am Games Society that from the perspective of the Pan Am Games and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, CBC, and the sport network, TSN, there are some concerns about releasing details relative to the contract. I believe their concerns relate most directly to the fact that they are the host broadcasters, and they have some additional negotiations to pursue with other networks and so on.
In terms of any issue where you have various parties, a part of an agreement, at this particular point in time, there are concerns about making all of the details and financial details public because they have to conclude all of their negotiations in terms of putting together what they would consider the best package.
I know her specific question about advertising rights and advertising inventory, that that will, in fact, belong to the Pan Am Games Society, but again they do not have a figure that can be provided today in terms of what that might generate in terms of revenue for the games. But they have retained that inventory or those rights in terms of the advertising during the Pan Am Games, they being the Pan Am Games Society.
Ms. Cerilli: There are a number of questions to be answered here, but first of all it seems that there are some really unusual things going on with this television contract, particularly in terms of the agreement with CBC where it seems that they have made this trade. I am wanting for the minister to confirm that in exchange for CBC covering the games that actually the Pan Am Society is covering the costs of reconstruction and renovation on the CBC building in downtown Winnipeg on Portage Avenue.
I was actually just at the CBC building this morning and was told that construction on that renovation was starting this summer, and they are consolidating all their operations into the one building. I am wondering if that is what the Pan Am Games Society is paying for?
Mr. Stefanson: Well, Mr. Chairman, I know the member for Radisson is not going to like this answer, but I think I have to give it to her anyway. That falls within the total area of the terms of the agreement that was reached with CBC and TSN, and at this particular point in time that information is not available to be made public.
Ms. Cerilli: Well, Mr. Minister, it is public, it is in the Free Press. What I am asking for you to do is confirm it. I mean, are you saying that Scott Taylor is just speculating and his story is full of ifs? If this agreement goes through, then the CBC is going to get a new building. What kind of purpose do these Estimates serve if we cannot get any information?
Mr. Stefanson: This is an agreement that was entered into and announced yesterday, as the member knows. In terms of the accuracy or inaccuracy of Scott Taylor, I am not about to confirm that. Mr. Taylor has been accurate sometimes and he has been inaccurate other times, but in terms of all aspects of the final arrangement between CBC and TSN, Mr. Chairman, I am not in a position to provide that at this particular point in time.
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Ms. Cerilli: One of the concerns that I have about this is the amount of money that is going towards the broadcast centre for CBC. I am wondering if the minister has information about the amount of money from the federal government that is going towards that and if some of that money is Manitoba government money that is going to the broadcast centre?
I understand that the Pan Am Games Society has developed their budget and that they will be funding the broadcast centre from that budget, but I think it is a concern if the federal government is in a way getting out of funding the CBC, yet again, for renovations on their site and that that money is now coming from the Pan Am Games.
The CBC, as I understand it, is going through a reorganization consolidation of their operations on Portage Avenue, and they are doing that to save money. They are doing that to deal with the cutbacks that CBC has suffered under the Liberal government, but I am wondering if what is also happening now is that they are saving more money by having the Pan Am Games pay for the refurbishment of their operations on Portage Avenue and that this is another way that the federal government is saving money at the expense of the Pan Am Games.
(Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)
Mr. Stefanson: That is actually a pretty good question from the member for Radisson, and I am glad to hear her concerns about the federal Liberal government and some of their decisions relative to the CBC and facilities in Winnipeg. But I think what is important from the Pan Am Games perspective is the Pan Am Games have a significant budget allocation for host broadcasting which the member is familiar with and aware of. What I am told is through this arrangement with CBC and TSN, they have been able to reduce what was their original budgeted amount for broadcasting downwards as a result of this arrangement that was entered into and announced yesterday.
I guess if that ends up being a part of an ultimate redevelopment of CBC in Winnipeg, some component of it, of the redevelopment in Winnipeg, I am not so sure that is a bad thing recognizing that with much of what we are doing with facility enhancement of the Pan Am Pool or the gymnasium out at the University of Manitoba, obviously it benefits all governments but most importantly benefits the public and those facilities for many years after the games.
But on an overall basis in terms of the impact on the Pan Am Games budget, this agreement, I am told, has reduced some of their costs in that area and, if and when I am in a position to release further details on the final agreement with CBC and TSN, I will certainly undertake to provide those to the member for Radisson.
Ms. Cerilli: Who does the Pan Am Games Society deal with at CBC in these negotiations?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I am informed that the majority of the discussions and negotiations took place with the two individuals who were in Winnipeg yesterday, Mr. Alan Clark, I believe, the Director of Sport for CBC, head of CBC TV Sports, and Mr. Jim Thompson, who is the president of TSN, The Sports Network.
Those were the two principal contacts in terms of negotiations. Having said that, I am sure there might well have been other people involved in the process, but those apparently were the two key contacts for those two organizations.
Ms. Cerilli: Where is Alan Clark based out of?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I believe both gentlemen, Mr. Clark and Mr. Thompson, are based out of Toronto.
Ms. Cerilli: This is an unusual situation, though, where rather than purchasing from CBC the time, on-air time, they have this arrangement where they are going to pay for this construction of the facility on Portage Avenue. I am wondering what costs more. I mean, the building here is-I do not know if I want to go according to this Free Press article or not, but they are saying the broadcast centre will be about $20 million. No, that is wrong; that is what it was in Victoria. Ours is going to be cheaper than that, but it does not say how much.
The question I am wanting to ask, irrespective of the dollar figures here, is how this arrangement ends up being in terms of the bottom line, what the cost of the new building is and how that compares to the usual cost to actually just buy the on-air time with money, as it usually occurs.
Mr. Stefanson: I guess the member suggests the norm being to pay money and basically buy the rights, depending on the scope of the games and the viewing audience. Of course, we know when you get into an Olympic situation that networks actually pay the host societies for the right to televise various events. That, I guess, for any sporting event is the ultimate, if you can get the networks to be paying you money for the rights to televise. In this particular case, I think the best thing to be done would be to hopefully be in a position to provide more specific terms once some of the concerns in terms of third-party confidentiality are addressed.
But each situation is different. In terms of the Pan Am Games, as I have already indicated, on the positive side in terms of their revenue, they have retained the advertising rights, the advertising inventory, which will generate revenue for the Pan Am Games, and any other specific details around the financial terms with CBC and TSN, I cannot provide at this time.
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Ms. Cerilli: This is very unusual and there was a lot of fanfare yesterday. Like I said, I was at the press conference, and the more we get into this, the more it is sort of coming back down to being very much the very beginning stages even. This is only dealing with Canada and the Caribbean and South America. There is no network coverage yet for the United States which is a big part of the action here.
I know that when I raised this issue last year in Estimates, we were having this same discussion about television contract and having an American network, and now we have the unusual situation of Canada, then, giving away the rights, or the Pan Am Games Society, in a sense, giving away the rights, and they actually having to pay CBC through the construction of the building.
What is the agreement with TSN? I will split these questions up because I want to deal with the other issue as well; so, first of all, to tell me what is the agreement with TSN in terms of exchange, and what is the situation in terms of having a U.S. network or programming for the U.S.?
Mr. Stefanson: As we have already discussed, I think each of these arrangements whenever there are major sporting events are different in some ways, and I am sure this is no exception. As we have already discussed, as well, the Pan Am Games will be retaining the advertising rights and the revenue that goes with those advertising rights.
In terms of the arrangement with TSN, obviously it falls under the same framework as the CBC agreement, and at this particular point in time no further details can be provided.
In terms of the U.S. network, negotiations are ongoing. I am told that the Pan Am Games Society wanted to specifically obtain the Canadian broadcasting companies, CBC, TSN, to get that arrangement in place, and they do continue to pursue various possibilities with distribution into the United States, because the member is certainly correct that that is a large viewing audience.
Ms. Cerilli: Well, I know the last time we had these discussions, there was a possibility that there was going to be a contract in the United States signed with FOX, and that did not happen, so who else is on the horizon? I mean, what is the status of any other network?
Mr. Stefanson: The member is certainly correct that going back roughly a year ago, there were some serious negotiations with FOX. Unfortunately, those did not lead to a successful agreement. Subsequent to that the Pan Am Games Host Society felt it was important to nail down the Canadian broadcasting rights and to at least get the mechanisms in place to start to move forward aggressively with some of the corporate sponsorships that we touched on yesterday and, as a result, the ability yesterday to announce IBM, Great-West Life, Investors, and Wawanesa.
Now that they have done that, I am told they have been in discussion with a few of the major networks down in the United States and that those negotiations will be ongoing. In terms of who they are currently in negotiations with, I would have to confirm they certainly have been in negotiations with organizations like NBC, FOX, certainly, on an ongoing basis, ESPN, to name at least three organizations that there have been various forms of negotiations with.
Ms. Cerilli: Well, I am just trying to do some calculations here and, given some of the discussions we were having yesterday too, where it looks like there is going to be an additional up to $40 million added on in terms of expenses and how now that you have secured the Canada broadcast, and that is estimated to then lead to $35 million to $40 million in revenue I guess from advertising with that programming, and there is about $8 million to $10 million for the Winnipeg corporations that have signed on, I am just trying to add this up and see that you have now got about $50 million, but you are going to need probably at least another $60 million in revenue from advertising.
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I appreciate that part of this agreement, all the advertising revenue from the broadcast in Canada, is going to come back to the Pan Am Games Society; it is not going to be going to these televisions networks, but that may not be the case for an American deal. So we are going to still be relying fairly heavily on an American agreement for the television rights in the United States. Is that correct?
I am wondering, though, if the games is considering not having them broadcast in the United States. I know that some of the comments are saying this has to be a world-class event or we are not going to do it at all. So it still seems like there has to be another major way of levering more revenue from advertising. I am wondering if the minister can confirm that.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I do not think I can necessarily accept the numbers that the member has put out. As we discussed yesterday, the budget approved by the Pan Am Games Society is the one we have in front of us. As we also discussed, we do know that they are going through a review of their budget right now. We need their expenditures for the reasons we discussed yesterday, and so on. In fact, I am told that with the Canada Games that we are hosting in Brandon this August, that budget ended up being revised five times.
I hope that is not necessarily the case with the Pan Am Games, but I think it shows the nature of major sporting events, that as you get closer you do start to either firm up the kinds of things we are discussing today or you do not, and certainly some access to the American population is important for the games. As we have already discussed, the Games Society is pursuing that, particularly now that they have an arrangement made with CBC and TSN in Canada. What that ultimately means financially, I think again, we have to wait and see how successful they are in terms of concluding any agreement, with whom, and ultimately what it will mean to their budget.
Ms. Cerilli: The question I am asking you is, do they have to have a television contract for viewing in the United States or is it possible that they would not have that and be able to go ahead with the games, because I think in the past they have not been televised in the United States?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, if the member is asking, is providing television into the United States a condition of hosting the Pan American Games, the answer is, no, they are not. So she is right that from hosting the games to televising into the U.S. is not essential. It might well be important for other reasons, but in terms of it being a requirement to host the games, it is not.
Ms. Cerilli: Then there would have to be some major revisions in the budget. Is that correct? If there is not going to be the revenue from a contract for televising the games in the United States, how would that affect the games? How would that affect the budget? Is there some kind of revision being anticipated for that or are you planning for that at all?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I think what is important to note is unlike the Olympics where a broadcasting network will come in and pay a significant sum of money for the broadcasting rights, as we have already discussed to a limited extent, there is not a great deal of money to be made in terms of selling the rights whether it is to CBC or TSN or to any network in the U.S. But where there is a direct correlation is in terms of the private sector support. By having major Canadian television rights, which were announced yesterday, that broadens the scope to attract Canadian national firms.
Obviously, televising into the United States broadens that scope in terms of attracting support from international firms in terms of private sector contributions. So there is more of an impact on the revenue side of the budget from what these television opportunities can mean to soliciting private sector support. They are each important, and I think for the next period of time we need to wait and see how the Pan Am Games Society makes out in terms of television into the United States and, ultimately, whether or not they have to revise their budget as a result of whatever happens in that area.
Ms. Cerilli: When is the deadline for deciding if they are going to go with Canada only in the Caribbean and South America as the televised agreements currently hold or when are you going to decide if you are going to give up on trying to get an American network to cover the games?
Mr. Stefanson: I am not aware of a drop-dead date in terms of this issue of go, no go on pursuing television rights in the U.S., but I think it is fair to say, in terms of the certainty of any budget, as the games are now just over two years away, that the next few months are important, and I would anticipate by the end of the year it is very important to have basically as firm a budget as is possible.
So from a budgeting perspective, from a certainty of everything that you are providing, I think roughly by the end of the year is a very important date. That still would not necessarily mean that if the games were not successful by that date in terms of television rights that they could not continue to pursue it. I have not been provided that kind of a drop dead date, but I think in terms of a $122 million budget, all of the aspects that go with hosting the games, certainly the next few months are very important in terms of firming up the budget.
Ms. Cerilli: Well, the issue, though, now is that there are potentially a number of different scenarios that could occur, and I am wondering if the Pan Am Games Society has done budgets for those different scenarios with the television network in the United States, without one, with some of the different compilations of the number of athletes, the duration of stay. The minister is going by this one budget for approximately $122 million, but we are looking at potentially a number of different scenarios, and I am wondering if the finance committee is anticipating that.
Mr. Stefanson: The Pan Am Games Society and their finance committee have certainly run various scenarios, various sensitivity analysis in terms of many of these variables that we have touched on over the last two days. So, absolutely, the Games Society are doing those kinds of things. Now it is up to the finance committee and the Games Society to determine the status of their budget.
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Ms. Cerilli: One of the other issues that is raised by the Free Press coverage is a very different level of budget and, again, I am not sure where Scott Taylor gets his information from, but he thinks that the games budget is $138 million. I am wondering if Scott Taylor knows something that the minister does not. I know that the minister keeps saying that the budget they are working from is $122 million, and I am looking at the numbers that are quoted in Scott Taylor's column of the government's amount of money and-I am just going to compare these two because-he has the federal government-well, this is a little bit less, and again there was that $7 million of in-kind federal government revenue.
He has the provincial government pretty much on and city pretty much on, so I guess he is anticipating that the difference between $122 million and $138 million is going to come from the private sector in revenue from advertising and tickets.
But what I am wondering is if the Pan Am Games Society has approached the provincial government or the federal government for an increase in the grant that they would receive, given the number of scenarios we have talked about and the possibility of having increased athletes and increased expenses.
Mr. Stefanson: I was just trying to see if anybody could piece together Scott Taylor's budget, but I do not think anybody can. The last approved budget is the one that we are working off here at this committee, the $122,064,000 is the approved budget of the Pan Am Games Society. They are looking at a whole range of issues that we have touched on over these last couple of days in terms of some of their expenditure pressures. They now are firming up some of the revenue numbers as a result of yesterday's announcement and where they might be heading with television opportunities into the U.S.
At this particular point in time, that budget review process is being undertaken by the Pan Am Games Society. As we touched on yesterday, their finance committee has to go through that process. Ultimately if there are going to be any changes to their budget, it has to go through their executive and through their committee. So that is the process that this is in right now, and we should wait for the results of that.
Ms. Cerilli: My question was have they asked for an increase from any level of government?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, they have identified some of the issues that we have talked about here. Right now they are going through the process of firming up their expenditures, seeing where they can control their costs and so on. They have pointed out that if there is still a shortfall, they will be turning to governments for additional support. I think we have to let them go through that process. But they have made it clear that by the time they firm up their expenditures, by the time they give their best estimate of their broadcasting revenues, their advertising revenues, their private sector revenues, the only other funding sources have been government. If there still is a shortfall, they will then be returning to government to have discussions on how to deal with that.
They have certainly made us aware of that, that that is a possibility, and they are now going through their process of firming up their budget. Depending on what that produces, I am sure we will be having further discussions with them.
Ms. Cerilli: What is the government's position on having more revenue go to the Pan Am Games Society? Would you be open to having an increase in their grant?
Mr. Stefanson: I think it is a little premature, and we certainly encourage them initially to focus on both their expenditure control and generating additional revenue from other opportunities. We view that there is a significant contribution from the taxpayers in the process now, some $64 million approximately. In fact, if you factored in the federal government in kind, which I am not necessarily inclined to do, it takes the number to $71 million, but there is at least a $64 million contribution from governments, roughly 50 percent of this budget. So there is a significant contribution, and they are certainly being encouraged to look at those avenues first.
I guess I also would bring a view of what limited comparisons I have done of some other games, that in a relative sense the federal government has made a more significant contribution to other games elsewhere in Canada. I think a good case and good point could be made with the federal government in terms of what role they play with these games. But without getting too far ahead of ourselves, I think the most immediate is for the Games Society themselves to firm up their budget at this stage.
Ms. Cerilli: This may turn into another issue of trying to get the federal government to increase its donation, because this government feels like they are not contributing as much as perhaps they did previously, either with the Olympics or with Victoria and the Commonwealth Games. I know yesterday I asked questions about the Commonwealth Games and the amount of revenue. I had said that there was-I am trying to find it now-the amount of revenue that was available to the Commonwealth Games was quite a bit more, especially when you consider the number of sports that are involved. Now the minister has said that there are only 11 sports at the Commonwealth Games, not 22.
Does he have information about the amount of federal money that went to the Commonwealth Games in Victoria?
Mr. Stefanson: I guess the first point, the point I was making, is with what limited comparison we have. When we look at the relative contributions from governments, the municipal government, the City of Winnipeg, is certainly comparable with what has happened with other games. The provincial government contribution is comparable, and in a relative sense, the federal government contribution is somewhat less for the Pan Am Games.
We have been attempting to obtain an absolute firm number from the Commonwealth Games in Victoria. Because of some of the reporting and some of the disclosure, we have been in contact with them to clarify just exactly how much money the federal government has put into those games. Rather than provide what might be an inaccurate number today, I will certainly undertake to provide the member with that number, but it is definitely an amount greater than what has been put into the Pan Am Games in Winnipeg.
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Ms. Cerilli: Well, like I had said the other day, I was of the understanding that they had a fraction of the sports. We have 41 sports and they had 11, but they had three times the budget that we did, and I am not sure which proportion of that was from the federal government, and I think it is important to get those figures. It still goes back to the whole issue that there is what seems to be a big problem here with the financing.
I am wondering with the budgets that are with both the federal government and the provincial government for the in-kind contributions, that the federal government and the provincial government have budgets for those mapped out already, if those could be made available.
I mean, that is all public money, so that should all definitely be made available to us here that would show in detail the in-kind donations. Then, I guess, the other money, as well, would be part of that budget, but those are just going to be simple line items from different appropriations, so that would not be as difficult, I would expect. But I am wondering if there have also been budgets prepared for the in-kind money.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, certainly, in terms of the in-kind contribution from the provincial government, I will undertake to provide the member with a breakdown of what has been spent to date and a forecast of the areas that we will be spending, providing in-kind services as we move forward to the games.
We will undertake to provide what we can from the federal government commitment, and as I touched on yesterday, I think there have been some general concerns about the firmness of that in kind and the areas that it is being allocated to. That has been one of the reasons that it is not basically being factored into any budgets at this particular point in time, because of some of the areas that it is going to and the lack of specificity around it. The city one, I would imagine, we do not have that, but, again, I would anticipate that the city $2 million, there should not be a problem obtaining that breakdown either.
So we will certainly undertake to provide what we can, but there have been some general concerns around the $7 million from the federal government.
Ms. Cerilli: I want to also ask some questions about the approval process for these budgets, the federal, provincial and city, how those budgets are approved. How is the entire budget for the Pan Am Games Society approved? Who approves it? When was it approved, and how does the provincial government play a role in that? What is the role of the provincial government in terms of the approval of that budget?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the budget would be prepared by the Host Society of the Pan Am Games, obviously, in consultation with the levels of government as funding partners. Ultimately, the budget was concluded and a specific request made in our case to our government for the $23,500,000, and we, through our process within government, approved our contribution of 23.5.
I am not sure what happened in terms of the federal process. I am imagining they go through a similar process in terms of their approval, and the City of Winnipeg, I am imagining, went to the floor of City Council.
Ms. Cerilli: I have just one more question on this, and then I am going to ask if we could take a short break, and the member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans) is going to ask a couple of questions.
I just wanted to clarify, then, with the provincial level, when was the budget approved, and, again, what is the role of the cabinet and the provincial government in terms of approving these budgets for the Pan Am Games?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I will have to go back in the records in terms of the exact dates, but once the budget was concluded, it would go through our process of approval, as a government, to approve our contribution through our Treasury Board and cabinet process.
In terms of moving forward with the implementation of the budget, we have one individual on the overall board. We also have an individual on the co-ordinating committee. We also have an individual on the finance committee. So, we, along with the other levels of government, have links to the various entities as we move forward dealing with the budget.
Ms. Cerilli: I am going to request that break now after the member for Interlake asks some questions, and maybe I will even be back by then.
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Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): I know that my honourable colleague asked yesterday about the funding or grants or anything available for the Indigenous Games that are coming up in August.
There has been brought to my attention specific requests from the communities of Fisher River and Peguis with respect to obtaining some funding through Sport Manitoba or any other department. A letter has been written to the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Newman), and I have been asked again to request some sort of support and/or ideas as to where there are funds available through the department or how these two communities can access some funds.
The last few times they have gone out, they have had to basically fundraise themselves. They are at a shortfall, and indication to me is that the last time they went-and I forget where it was; I believe it was in the States-everybody else pretty well was full regalia. Equipment, everything was provided, or some of the equipment and such, and funding was provided by the different provinces and jurisdictions.
I am wondering how we can support these two communities and any other communities that are looking for funding to attend these games and participate in them.
Mr. Stefanson: I think the member for Interlake and I have discussed this on at least a previous occasion, and the policy to date, as he knows, has been to fund provincial teams that attend major events like the Canada Games, the Western Canada Games or other international games.
We get all kinds of requests from individual teams or community teams that might be travelling out of province and want some financial support. Now, having said that, we do recognize that there are some differences relative to this issue of our aboriginal community participating in the Indigenous Games. A meeting took place yesterday. Another one is taking place next week with individuals from Justice, Community Support Programs, Sport Manitoba, Northern Affairs and so on to assess the situation and determine specifically what is being requested and whether or not some provincial government support should be provided.
So we certainly are looking at the issue right now in terms of whether or not to provide support for the 1997 Indigenous Games in British Columbia.
Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister for that. The minister indicated there will be another meeting next week. Can he provide a timetable as to when we can come to some conclusion, how soon, and come up with the numbers available?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, well, time is certainly a factor, as the member is alluding to because, as he knows, the games are in British Columbia from August 3 to 10. So subsequent to next week's meeting we will have to make decisions quite quickly as to, as I say, whether or not we can provide some support and, if so, at what level and under what terms and conditions. So time is a factor. We recognize that, and we will deal with the issue expeditiously.
Mr. Clif Evans: I do not know if that is really fast enough for me or for the communities, but I can say to the minister that if he-[interjection] Well, I am going to put that on the record. The minister is indicating that it is about as fast as I skate. Well, perhaps at this age of 49 not that fast but, in my day, quite fast. So I would sort of hope that the minister would look at that and say, well, let us get this money going as quickly as possible as the honourable member used to be able to skate. But I do have just a comment on that. I will take this to the communities. Saturday I am attending, and it would be nice if the minister could in the interdepartmental mail just pass on a cheque made out to the Fisher River Indigenous Games Committee, I will take it to the fundraiser dinner on Saturday. I would be honoured to present them with that cheque along with my donation to their efforts.
But, having said that, on a more serious side now, I do hope, I certainly hope that these meetings do come up positive for these communities and for all of Manitoba youth, aboriginal youth. Perhaps something can be put in place, a provincial body can be put in place that can deal with these types of things and include them with all the other provincial sport bodies that we have so that they can have available sources just like everybody else.
Mr. Stefanson: Well, the member also raises a key point, and I think he is aware that there are individuals working on the development of an aboriginal sport council, and we are working with them through Sport Manitoba. We are supportive of the establishment of an aboriginal sport council, recognizing that we still believe that participation should be within the framework of all of the sport governing bodies but that there is a role for an aboriginal sport council, but that still participation in hockey or soccer or whatever is still within the framework of the overall governing body. I think that is moving forward in a positive sense also.
We certainly are going to take a good look at this whole issue of participation in the Indigenous Games and whether or not we should be providing support and, if so, at what level. So I do want to assure the member that we are taking a very serious look at the entire issue.
Mr. Clif Evans: I thank the minister for those answers, and I will be taking those answers to the community on Saturday, both communities, and try and work along with them to get involved with the whole picture as against individually funding and having to fundraise themselves for their athletes. I mean, there are well over 100 athletes between the two communities of Peguis and Fisher River that will be attending.
I know the minister can appreciate that it is certainly within their budget limits and scope of things to be able to get the proper funding. Sufficient funding is a major task. We do not want to see these young athletes not being able to participate. I can tell the minister that the quality of the young people out there in the sport field is exceptional. So we do not want to see them be short-changed or not be able to go and support their communities, not only the aboriginal communities but sport on the whole.
(Mr. Chairperson in the Chair)
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I am not surprised that there are, as the member says, close to 100 participants from Fisher River and Peguis, because I see on an overall basis Team Manitoba is comprised of 625 aboriginal young people, coaches, team managers and chaperons who will be participating. So it is certainly a very significant level of participation.
Ms. Cerilli: I want to go back to the questions I was asking about the budget for the Pan Am Games.
We had been talking about the procedure for approving the budgets and that, and I am wondering if the Pan Am Games Society has to make a request to the government to have its approval to increase the budget if it is not going to affect the revenue and grants from the government; so if the Pan Am Games Society wants to increase the budget beyond the $122 million, and they are prepared to have that increase be covered through the private sector and through advertising and merchandise, et cetera, if they have to get approval for that from the provincial government and other levels of government that are funding the games.
Mr. Stefanson: The way I understand the member's question is if the expenditures go up on the budget but it is offset by other sources of revenue other than government support, does the Pan Am Games have to come back to government for official ratification of their budget. I am told, no, they do not. Having said that, I am sure they would, as a courtesy, provide us with the revised budget and offer us the opportunity for comment on it.
But, also, having said that, as I said earlier, we do have a representative on the board. We do have a representative on the coordinating committee, so we do have representatives involved directly in the decision-making process as well.
I do not believe that because there would be no request for additional support from government that they would have to come back for specific approval of their budget, but based on the fact that government is a significant funding partner, I am confident that the society would provide the budget to governments and solicit input and comment.
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Ms. Cerilli: In the budgeting for the games, are certain facilities being financed through certain levels of governments' budgets? This process is complex, but I am wondering if the minister can clarify.
I realize the amount of money that is going from the different levels of government to the Pan Am Games Society, and I am wondering if that is including all the money that the government is giving for some facilities, or if there is money on top of that for some facilities and if there are specific facilities that are being paid for by specific government budgets.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, my understanding is, yes, there are some costs over and above, but I think what would be the most helpful is the question I indicated I will provide more detail to the member on, and that is these services in kind, particularly from the City of Winnipeg, because a good number of the facilities are City of Winnipeg facilities. The way I understand the member's question is-let us take the Pan-Am Pool as an example. Is the City of Winnipeg merely providing that facility, or are they building in some costs relative to that as their contribution, the operating costs, the servicing costs and so on?
I am informed that there are some of both. Similarly, there are some programs that are being funded basically outside even of the Pan Am Games budget. Some of the improvements we are doing through the infrastructure agreement are benefiting the Pan Am Games. The $1.5 million for the Pan-Am Pool is benefiting the games and so on.
So, the short answer is, yes, there are some areas of expenditure that are falling outside of the budgets.
Ms. Cerilli: So the budget that we have then is not a clear picture or is not the complete picture, let me put it that way, in terms of the total public expenditure that is going to be going benefit to the games, and I appreciate that the Pan-Am Pool, for example, will be around after the games and that the infrastructure money is going into it from there.
But what I want to ask now is about the question of the deficit potentially from the games and what happens if there is a deficit from the games. How would that be dealt with in terms of government's responsibility? How is the budgeting process accounting for that?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the member is correct that this budget, I would call it, mostly complete in terms of most of the expenditures that relate to the games, but as we have already discussed, there are some areas like the Pan-Am Pool being probably one of the better examples being funded from the infrastructure agreement that will benefit the games but will also benefit our community or the city of Winnipeg for many years to come. So this certainly would reflect the vast majority of expenditures related to the games.
In terms of her question about a deficit, from limited discussions I have had with the Pan Am Games Society and with the other levels of government is these games will not be run on a deficit basis. Any decisions required in terms of any adjustments will be made in advance of the games, as in keeping with our balanced budget legislation.
Ms. Cerilli: So the minister is saying that the games are subject to the balanced budget legislation-wow, we will see what happens in about three years. The minister is on record now as saying that there will not be a deficit for the games. We will see, I guess time will tell.
One of the things that I do want to ask about in more detail is the budget as it applies to the facilities. This is an area where there, again, have been problems in the whole process that was used. In talking to some of the sports, they are concerned about the delays in construction of facilities, but they are also concerned about the shortfall in revenue that is being given to construct a number of the facilities. They are concerned about the process that was used. It seems like, for example, some of the sports were approached and were asked how much is it going to cost to run your event. They did not take into account the need for some of the equipment and facilities that were going to be required, because of the way that they were approached.
Now, what we are finding is that a lot of the venues are going to be dealing with a shortfall in terms of the costs that they are going to receive in order to make the necessary upgrades and preparations. I am actually wanting to go through the list that I have here, and I have with me, as well, the venue guide for the Pan Am Games. I will try not to make this more complicated than it needs to be. I am wanting to go through each of the sports and see what has been budgeted for each of the venues and have the minister let me know if the sport has now communicated to him if there is going to be additional revenue required.
Maybe the minister wants me to repeat that question. I am wanting to go through and see if any of these venues, going through each of them, is going to require some additional revenue as indicated by the sports or by the community where that venue is. I think it is worthwhile taking the time to go through this, so let us start off with-I will try and line this up here.
So for archery, for example, it is stated here that there is $14,820 in the revised budget. I am wondering if that is confirmed and if there are any additional requests from the community where the venue is or from the sport group.
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Mr. Stefanson: I just want to touch on that issue of the games running at a deficit. I think what I indicated to the member is we have had discussions with the Pan Am Games Society and the other levels of government, that it is everybody's intention to ensure or attempt to ensure that the games do not run on a deficit. If we see areas that require adjustments, that, hopefully, we can identify them and recognize them in advance and make decisions well in advance of the games themselves.
That is certainly the objective of everybody, and that is why the Pan Am Games are going through the detailed review they are now, again, of their budget in terms of firming up their numbers, firming up their revenue sources and so on. Of course, I referenced the balanced budget legislation because like any good organization or good government, we all should be attempting to balance our budgets.
This list of the facilities for the Pan Am Games, the member will notice in the upper right-hand corner that it was prepared on May 14 of '97, so it is the most recent listing provided by the Pan American Games. I should point out that what these expenditures do is they bring these facilities up to the technical standards that are required to host the games. Having said that, I am sure there are some organizations that have made additional requests, that would love additional expansions to their facilities and so on, so, again, there could very well be additional requests out there from organizations, but from the Pan Am Games Society perspective, these expenditures will bring all of these facilities up to the standards that we require to host an excellent games. We are fortunate in Manitoba that our facilities on an overall basis are in good shape.
To go through them line by line I do not think will accomplish anything because all I will point to is it is the most recent estimate from the Pan Am Games. If she wants me to attempt to get some additional information as to whether or not these organizations have made additional requests over and above, I can certainly undertake to do that. I know she is familiar with at least one request from an organization, the water ski association, relative to the retention pond in Transcona. So there are some of those kinds of requests that are outside of the budget at this particular point in time for the Pan Am Games Society.
I will certainly undertake to determine whether or not any of these organizations or facilities are making requests beyond what is being budgeted for by the Pan Am Games.
Ms. Cerilli: Well, I would like to get the information that the minister said he would provide in terms of any other requests, and maybe rather than going through line by line, I will ask some specific questions about some of the venues that I know are problematic.
I will start off with the Gimli Yacht Club and the sailing venue. That was one where I think that they were initially going to get $127,000, and the renovations that were necessary were far and away beyond that. I think that they were more in the area of about a million dollars. I am just trying to find on the list now where sailing is.
Mr. Stefanson: Yachting and sailing, near the bottom of the list.
Ms. Cerilli: And there they are at the bottom of the list, so let us add these two together. It does not look like we are going to get much more that $127,000.
So what is happening in Gimli? How are they going to deal with this problem? How are you going to deal with this problem?
Mr. Stefanson: Well, as I pointed out, this list is as at May 14, just two weeks ago, but having said that, there are still discussions taking place with some of the organizations and some of the facilities.
I am somewhat familiar with the Gimli request. Gimli is looking at a fairly significant redevelopment in their whole harbour area adjacent to the yacht club and so on. So there is, at this particular point in time, a much larger project that is being worked on by the Town of Gimli, by the yacht club and other supporting organizations.
But from the Pan Am Games perspective, this investment here accomplishes what needs to be done to bring the facility up to the standards for the Pan American Games. But having said all of that, I know in some of these cases, discussions are still not concluded, and there might very well be some further adjustments to what is finally allocated for individual facilities.
Ms. Cerilli: What are the facility improvements that have to be made in Gimli for yachting according to the Pan Am Games Society? Can you describe for me what has to be done?
Mr. Stefanson: Well, I certainly will undertake to provide specific details to the member, but I am told that they are basically related to renovations and maintenance that need to be done at the yacht club itself relative to shower facilities and other facilities in the club. I will undertake to provide any additional information on that particular project.
Ms. Cerilli: Well, according to the Pan Am Games Society, what is the capacity for the number of boats in the Gimli Harbour that is needed for the Pan Am Games?
Mr. Stefanson: I will get the member details on capacity, but certainly my understanding of that harbour and feedback I have had is that it is classified as a world-class harbour facility and certainly will meet the needs of the Pan Am Games. But in terms of its capacity, I will provide the member with that information.
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Ms. Cerilli: Well, as I understand it, this is one of the problems, that they need to have a capacity for 100 boats. You know, when I asked the question of the minister of what facilities, according to the Pan Am Games, need to be improved, he said shower facilities. I do not know what else he was going to include in that, but that is a far cry from the kind of improvements and costs that would be associated with making a harbour able to deal with a large number more boats.
So I am wondering if there has been a change now in the plan for Gimli or-here it is here. The games will require accommodation for 138 boats. I do not know what the capacity is for now. Mr. MacKenzie was quoted as saying that. I am reading an article in the Interlake Spectator from Monday, August 5, 1996, and the mayor of Gimli is quoted as being concerned about the revenue that is going to be made available for them to increase the capacity of the harbour. So have there been changes in the plans for Gimli in terms of the kinds of facilities that were going to be included in the upgrading?
Mr. Stefanson: I will certainly undertake to get the member more current information, but I am told there is no problem with the harbour capacity, that the improvements that need to be put in place relate to the improvements in terms of the yacht club itself in terms of some of the areas inside of the yacht club and some of the services to the yacht club and that there is not a problem with the capacity of the harbour.
I know, as I say, that Gimli is looking at a much broader harbourfront redevelopment and land reclamation project and might certainly be viewing trying to do any adjustments related to that whole redevelopment in conjunction with or as part of the hosting of the Pan Am Games sailing and running events.
But in terms of the capacity of the harbour, I am informed that there is not a capacity problem with the Gimli harbour to host the yachting and sailing for the Pan Am Games.
Ms. Cerilli: Okay, one of the other venues I wanted to deal with is, as the minister has mentioned, the venue for water skiing, and the budget quotes-where did it go?
Mr. Stefanson: About $190,000.
Ms. Cerilli: Yes, about $190,000 in total for water skiing. That obviously does not include the costs for the Transcona retention pond which, as I understand it, would not be used for the actual competition venue but would be some type of practice or venue associated with the Pan Am Games. Is that correct? Would the other money simply be reflected in the provincial government budget in some way for the games that the minister said he would provide, or is that money not being considered as part of the Pan Am Games budget?
I mean, it is really a flood protection pond. I am wondering now, too-I have heard different things, that perhaps that venue would not be available at all. We are concerned that it is not even going to have the funding approved to be constructed in time.
So could the minister clarify for us the plans in terms of the water skiing venues and if this $188,000 is actually for the venue in I think it is Portage la Prairie that would be used?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the member is right in terms of what this money in this budget is allocated for. It is basically allocated for Portage la Prairie where water skiing is to officially take place. She is also correct that there has been a request in terms of using what we will call the Transcona retention pond as a practice facility, training facility, for the Pan Am Games.
Now, in terms of what position the Pan Am Games have taken on that facility, we will have to contact them. The water ski association did make a request through the infrastructure agreement for some enhancements to the retention pond, so that request is before the infrastructure review committee, but I am not very optimistic that there will be funding available from that funding source for any additional enhancements.
In terms of the whole establishment of the retention pond, the member knows that we made a commitment to proceeding with that retention pond through the UCPA III agreement with the City of Winnipeg, and, as I told her the other day, I remain confident that the City of Winnipeg will accept our 50 percent offer of support and proceed with what is the most immediate need, and that is developing the retention pond.
Ms. Cerilli: So I just want to clarify that I am understanding the minister correctly. The money that is earmarked in the Pan Am Games budget is for Portage, that is clear, but that the retention pond which would be funded through Urban Affairs is going to need some additional upgrading to actually become a water ski venue of any sort, and that that money is not approved yet through infrastructure or any type of budget.
Would that have implications for the Pan Am Games? I mean, it seems water skiing in Portage would have a difficult time utilizing a facility in Transcona. How would that work? Is this feasible at all, in terms of the Pan Am Games using the Transcona site?
Mr. Stefanson: The member is right in terms of how she outlined everything. I think what we need to do is have a discussion with the Pan Am Games whether or not they view any enhancements to the Transcona retention pond as being of benefit or value to the Pan Am Games. That would be their first decision. If they did, then you would have to determine how you could fund any enhancements, either through their budget or elsewhere.
We will have those discussions with the Pam Am Games Society. At this particular point in time, my sense is that with all the requirements that the Pan Am Games have, that the establishment of the second site, the Transcona retention pond, is not a priority, but we will certainly confirm with them and have discussions with them on that project.
Ms. Cerilli: Would not having the retention pond in Transcona used as a Pan Am Games facility affect at all its construction for the retention pond? If it is not going to be needed for the Pan Am Games, is that going to affect at all the funding that is going to be made available to actually construct the retention pond, because when this first became a potential project it was touted as being a Pan Am Games facility potentially, and that was sort of portrayed as being a way of sort of speeding it up and getting it done quickly, and I am wondering if that is the case.
Mr. Stefanson: From our government's perspective, no. We recognize the need for the retention pond and are prepared to proceed immediately with our financial support. I believe the City of Winnipeg agrees with that position, but we have to wait for confirmation from them.
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Ms. Cerilli: I want to ask some questions then about the athletics facilities at the University of Manitoba, and I see here that there is in the budget $1,639,919 for that, and I am wanting to find out specifically what that amount of money is budgeted for in terms of the resurfacing of the track, stands, photo timing, other necessities that will be required to host a world class track and field competition and is this budget going to meet those needs? I want an itemized budget for track and field to see what, exactly, that money that is budgeted here is going to go to pay for.
Mr. Stefanson: The member is correct that resurfacing of the track is one component, but what I will do is I will provide her with a detailed breakdown of all components of those expenditures.
Ms. Cerilli: Okay. Just looking at the time and I would like to go into that kind of detail for a number of the other venues, but I do not think I have the time since I have made some agreements with some of my colleagues to get through this, so I want to go back and ask some more general questions about the budget before I move on to a few other things.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, for that reason, if the member has any additional areas that she wants to provide me a listing of at a subsequent date, we will certainly undertake to provide her details on the project.
Ms. Cerilli: I appreciate that. I just want to ask-to go back to the process for how these budgets were developed, and for the minister to explain to me when the process started in terms of having the sports submit their requirements for facility upgrades and equipment, and how that was dealt with by the Pan Am Games Society.
Who in the sport groups generally was involved with that? I have heard some concerns that the people that are really in the know in some of the sports that do have world and international experience in hosting competitions were not necessarily the ones that were involved hands on at the outset in developing the facility budgets and equipment budgets. That is one of the reasons that there are problems is that the process was not as good as it needed to be to really get a clear understanding of the needs for the different sports in terms of facilities and equipment.
Mr. Stefanson: My understanding of the process is that contact was made with all the applicable sport-governing bodies in terms of their view of the facilities and that in most, if not all, of the cases they designated a technical contact person for that sport for the Pan Am facilities committee to liaison with in terms of what the requirements were. So, certainly, sport-governing bodies through a contact, through a liaison person, had input into the facility development for the final budget that was approved by the Pan Am Games Society.
Ms. Cerilli: So how does the minister explain all the concerns and the problems with the shortfalls in the budgets for facilities, that now there are sports that are worried that their facilities are not going to have the necessary upgrades so that they can be qualified and designated as a world class international facility?
Mr. Stefanson: I guess, Mr. Chairman, I am not aware of all of these concerns that the member points to. I have not had a concern expressed to me by any of these sport organizations about their ability to participate and host a Pan Am Games event. I know there are some organizations that would like to do more significant enhancements to their facilities but, having said that, I have not heard anybody suggest that their facilities will not meet the technical standards required to host the games. Of course, they go through a process.
The Pan American sport organizations send out representatives to inspect all of our facilities to make sure that they meet the minimum standards for us to host all of these events, so that has to occur. That is a part of the process that we are going through right now and over the next several months. Other than some sports requesting some enhancements over and above what the Pan Am Games Society is budgeting, I am not aware of any problems in terms of our ability to meet the needs of hosting the games.
Ms. Cerilli: One of the concerns is in terms of the timing and the construction. The minister knows that a number of the facilities have to be tested with another sanctioned competition in order for the venue to qualify. I notice that in the budget there is a year-by-year indication of when the money is going to be expended, and it ends at 1997. I am wanting to know if the minister can confirm if all of the upgrades are going to be completed on time to enable sports to have the necessary qualifying competitions and reviewed by the international sporting organizations, given the authorization and the okay that they need in order to qualify as Pan Am Games venues?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, we are not aware of any problems in terms of meeting any of the test requirements for sporting events. The amount shown as expended for 1997, I am told, is what has been expended to date as at May 14. So it is certainly expected that there will be more dollars utilized during 1997. As the member knows, some events will take place in '97. A good number of them will take place in 1998. The Pan Am Games Society certainly have the cash available to proceed with any requirements that they need to do in 1997. We, as a provincial government, have advanced about $14 million of our total commitment to date, so I am told that everything is more or less on track and that there are no problems in terms of meeting any of the testing of venues as required.
Ms. Cerilli: Would the minister provide me with another budget that would indicate the projected expenditures that are going to occur in '97 and then in '98?
Mr. Stefanson: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I will undertake to provide a breakdown of the capital expenditures over those two years.
Ms. Cerilli: One of the other things I am wanting to ask about is who and how will the Pan Am Games Society decide, who is responsible for making the decisions about which sports will get complete coverage and partial coverage and the percentages in terms of the hours of coverage, given the existing contracts for broadcast so far?
Mr. Stefanson: I am told the process to determine the events to be televised will be done in conjunction with obviously the Pan Am Games Society, the broadcasters themselves, and the advertisers. Obviously, there is a linkage between what events are televised and what advertising opportunities there are to go with those events. That will be the process in terms of working towards what sports ultimately receive the television.
Ms. Cerilli: In terms of the budget revisions that have been done, and I appreciate that it does say on the budget that I have received it is a revised budget, I am wondering, so far how many revisions has the budget gone through and what was the impetus for making these revisions? Was it the Pan Am Games Society? Was it the government? Where did that requirement initiate from to make the revisions to the budget?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, in terms of any past comparisons, I will have to obtain and provide that information to the member but, as she can appreciate, they were original estimates based on preliminary assessment discussions with sport governing bodies.
As the Pan Am Games moves forward with specific development of the projects, as budgets get firmer in terms of the amounts, obviously the numbers change. Some budgets go down, some go up; there are some redirections to other facilities. So just like the overall Pan Am Games budget, I did the comparison to the Manitoba Games, which are a much smaller venue. That budget has changed five times. I think it is just the nature of hosting a major event, putting in place a budget four or five years in advance of the event and then moving forward with specific elements from firm contracts to a whole range of things that start to happen as you get closer to the venue. So I will provide what comparisons I can of previous allocations for the member.
Ms. Cerilli: The other part of my question was, how did these revisions come about? How were they initiated?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, they can come about, I think, in several ways. Certainly, from information provided by the sport governing bodies or the facilities themselves or the Pan Am Games going back with some additional changes or requests. Of course, as we get closer to getting firm estimates, as they get architects or contractors involved, then, of course, the estimates themselves become much firmer and more certain.
Ms. Cerilli: In talking about the facilities earlier, I am not sure if I asked the minister to provide me with a list of the facilities that the provincial government is putting money into specifically, but I am asking that now, if I did not ask it before. I just wanted to confirm because one of the things I did want to clarify is where those facilities are and the amount of money that is going from the provincial government into those facilities.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I am assuming the question is whether or not we are doing anything over and above what is here because, as the member knows, this is out of the overall budget. So I am assuming it is things like our contribution to the Pan-Am Pool through the infrastructure, notional allocation for a baseball stadium through the infrastructure, anything we are doing outside of this budget that we have before us. Right?
Ms. Cerilli: Well, in the existing budget that we have just looked at, the revised budget, I am wanting to know if the provincial government has designated funds for any of those specific facilities, and which ones?
Mr. Stefanson: Okay, I just want to be sure, because this $24-million allocation comes out of the overall Pan Am budget, which we contribute 23.5 to, so it is just one component of the overall. But if the member is saying, are we doing any, making any, additional contributions as a provincial government over and above the Pan Am Games budget to either these facilities or any other facilities, she would like to know that.
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Ms. Cerilli: I would like to know that, but that is not the question I was asking. The question I am asking is, does the province decide which facilities are going to get the provincial government money at all for those existing facilities, given the budget that we have just been looking at?
Mr. Stefanson: No, we do not. Our contribution is to the total games budget, and then the facility improvement is just one expenditure item in the overall budget. So we are contributing whatever our percentage is of the total budget. We are contributing 20 percent or whatever it is of all of these projects as are all of the funders.
Ms. Cerilli: One of the other things I wanted to deal with is the broader question of the economic impact of the games. I know that there was a study that was done by the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics, and it did look at the economic benefits or impact. I am wanting to confirm if that study was released in its entirety to the public.
I do not think I have a copy of it. I would like to have a copy of it. I know that it was referenced in a publication through the University of Manitoba. Can the minister clarify that for me?
Mr. Stefanson: I am led to believe it was released in its entirety. I will certainly confirm that and undertake to provide the member with a copy.
Ms. Cerilli: Just so you know, the calls that we have made to the Pan Am Games Society, they were only willing to release to us the executive summary, and I would like to get the entire study. I wish that I had it in time for these Estimates because this would be a good discussion to have based on that study, but we do not have much time left anyway. The few notes that I do have from the study are that the Pan Am Games are expected to result in $267 million in gross spending for Manitoba and generate 2,500 jobs or 2,030 person years of employment. The Pan Am Games Society is running the games on a budget of $137.3 million, which now we know is not what the minister has been quoting.
So this is interesting because both newspaper articles that I have referenced have a similar amount of money. The one today in the Free Press was $138 million as the budget, and this one is $137.3 million. They are very close to each other, but the budget we have been dealing with throughout this whole Estimates exercise has been much less than that, at $122 million.
Again, I would like for the minister to explain that and if that is not going to have an effect on the anticipated economic impact.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I will provide the member with a reconciliation. One area that it could be, as I pointed out on several occasions, is this budget does not factor in the $7 million in kind from the federal government for some of the reasons that we have already touched on.
There might well be a few other areas where some similar treatment is occurring, so I will provide the member with a reconciliation between the $137.3 million and the $122 million.
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Ms. Cerilli: I am still getting a $16-million difference, more than what would account for the $7 million in federal services in kind, $15 million, $16 million, so we are still looking for an additional approximately $7 million or $8 million.
But I was wanting to raise this in the context of this economic impact report and study that was done. I am wondering if the minister has had a chance to review that study and if he can give more of a breakdown on those 2,500 jobs that are projected to be created.
Do you have any more information about where those jobs would be and how that calculation is done, just generally again. I realize that we do not have much time to get into a lot of detail on this.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, yes, I have had a chance to review that study, and at the same time as providing hopefully the entire report, as I have undertaken already to attempt to do, and unless there is some compelling reason why the entire report cannot be released, I will provide-[interjection] Of what I know of the document, I would expect that the entire document could be released unless there is-obviously, if it cannot be, I will provide the member with what I would consider acceptable reasons.
At this particular point in time, I will attempt to provide the entire document, and with that, I will also provide her a breakdown of the areas for the 2,500 jobs.
Ms. Cerilli: It is interesting; the minister is saying that he is going to provide me with reasons, but he does not know what those are yet, and he does not know if he can provide me the entire report.
I want to just get into the larger policy issue of utilizing large events like the Pan Am Games as sort of an economic, what would you call it, an economic benefit. The issue of the expense that goes into it, and the attitude is that it is going to generate a lot in terms of tourism and there is going to be a large impact, but that would only be for approximately two weeks where the large benefit would be.
I am wondering if the government has considered, given the expense, the millions of dollars it is investing in these games, looking at different approaches to economic development or a provincial and federally funded economic benefit, looking at investment in other areas that would be more long term, that could have the same number of jobs created, health care, education, housing.
Have you had those kinds of discussions, because these kinds of large events really do now get billed as real economic boom, and I am hoping that the study that you have done addresses that. I am wondering if your government has really taken a look at that whole issue.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, we have hosted several events in Manitoba over the last few years, and we certainly with any major events or even not necessarily major events, any event that we are looking to support, we look at issues like the direct payback to us as a government in terms of taxation generated from the event. Again, in this particular case, I believe we will basically have our investment returned in terms of direct taxes back to the provincial government. We also look at issues like what is incremental, how much are our dollars coming from outside of our province, tourism dollars, people visiting our province and so on, also attempt to get a sense of how many dollars are kept in our province, if they are either entertainment dollars that could be spent elsewhere, or if it is an event that would be spent elsewhere and it would take parents and families and fans outside of Manitoba, so we very much do look at the economic side of any of the major events, as well as the intangible side in terms of what it can do for communities in terms of volunteerism.
I think, in this particular case we are looking at as many as 15,000 volunteers. If I recall correctly, the Western Canada Games I think had something like 8,000 volunteers; the Grey Cup had thousands of volunteers. There is the intangible side in terms of what it can do for your community in terms of all of those issues.
So we do very much look at it from an economic perspective, I guess, unlike some of the other areas that the member referred to, health care and so on. These kinds of activities do have a direct source of revenue and a significant amount of that revenue is derived from outside of our province, so it is bringing incremental dollars to our province that benefit many aspects of our economy, many businesses and certainly benefit the treasury of various levels of government.
Ms. Cerilli: Well, the brief notes I have about the economic impact statement show that it will have approximately 110,000 spectators spending $28.5 million while visiting Manitoba. It is difficult to compare that with the long-term benefits of investing, say, in preventative health or investing in other programs for children, even recreation programs for children, looking at the long-term benefit that has in terms of them not then relying on government services later on.
These are difficult issues to deal with, but the question I am asking is did the impact assessment that was done try and look at those to compare the economic benefit of investing in this type of economic development as opposed to government investing the same amount of dollars into other types of economic development?
Mr. Stefanson: I believe the study looked at purely the economic impact of these games and did not do any comparisons with other kinds of investments. I guess I just reiterate one of the many key elements is that we will generate more taxes than we will actually pay in terms of support for the games, let alone everything else that will happen throughout our economy. It is quite different from the kinds of investments that the member is referring to in other areas. In fact, one could argue if our taxation revenue here exceeds our direct input into these games, it actually creates additional dollars for other kinds of investment.
I think each individual investment is assessed on its own individual merits, and there are different criteria and factors that come into play, but when you look at major economic benefits from games, you have to determine what your direct payback is and then what the other ripple effect is through the economy, and when we look at the Pan Am Games, they will generate a significant economic benefit for the entire province.
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Ms. Cerilli: Well, the point that I am making though is, especially when you look at Manitoba and Winnipeg, with its high levels of poverty, and we know now of other studies done by Dr. Perry, who was recently in Manitoba, that looked at the cost saving to government in the long run when you invest into early childhood programs and other programs that would really try and deal with the costs of poverty so that in the long term government could save money-it does not have the same kind of short-term economic injection of activity as these games do.
But, in the long run, the amount of money that gets invested into some of these types of activities, I think there will be people in the community trying to make the argument that that could be better used by investing into the citizens who live here all the time, and we hope the young people stay here and make Manitoba their home and live here, and that if we invest that money early now, in the long run, it is going to save the government money sevenfold down the road when those young people graduate from school and do not have to put a burden on the justice system and on the health care system and on other public resources.
So that is the point I am raising with the minister, and I am interested in hearing his response to those kind of issues.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I guess the key is, I do not view those as an either/or. I think you have to look at both. The investment in the games, based on all of the data and the information provided by the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics, shows that, in effect, the games from a provincial government perspective pay for themselves with what they generate back in direct taxation. I think we can also agree that in many areas, early investments, particularly with children and our youth, can obviously reduce or eliminate costs down the road for government.
So I think, in principle, I certainly agree with that approach. I guess where we probably, again, agree to disagree is what those areas should be, how much money should be involved and so on but, as a principle, I would agree that early investment in those kinds of areas can also reap a benefit to society and to governments down the road. But I do not view them as one or the other. I view them as both having merit and both being doable by governments.
Ms. Cerilli: One of the other issues is sort of a smaller issue, I guess, that I want to bring to the minister's attention and relates to sort of the portrayal of the games and equity-the document that was done on the venues. It is called The Venues, Winnipeg 1999 Pan Am Games. One of my staff was looking at this, and I think that the pictures struck her. She did an analysis of them, and 57 of the pictures were male participants, versus 15 participants who were women participants. She put a note on here for me saying, it is another example of sexism in sport depicting that the idea of sports are mainly for men.
I just wanted to draw that to the minister's attention and see if he has any comments on that and assuring us that the games are going to be gender inclusive and they are not going to discriminate in any way against female athletes who, in Manitoba and Canada, do bring home the bulk of the medals. I just wanted to see if he has any response to that.
Mr. Stefanson: I would agree with the member that the ratio of pictures does not correspond to the ratio of participation in sport or success in sport by female athletes. It would probably be appropriate to have a more appropriate ratio in that document and certainly take her point as noted.
Ms. Cerilli: Okay, from there then I want to ask questions about the selection of one of the venues, which is a men's-only venue, and it is for racquet sports. I am concerned that this venue is being selected. It is a private facility. It is getting public money into the tune of over $50,000 potentially. Well, there are two lines here-$48,000 and $17,500 approximately for racquetball, and then there is also squash. That I think would be played there as well. Squash is getting over $75,000 in renovations. I realize that there are at least two facilities for those racquet sports, but one of them is a private, men's-only club.
I think that, again, members of the public would have a problem with that, of seeing Pan Am Games public money going to a facility that is going to, during the games and after the games, be exclusively for men. I am wondering if the minister has any explanation for that, if this has been reviewed and approved by his government and the cabinet.
Mr. Stefanson: Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, I would ask the member to be a little bit more specific with her question. [interjection] I just asked the member to be a little bit more specific with her question. She referred to racquetball, squash. Could she just be a little more specific?
Ms. Cerilli: The facility I am sure the minister is aware of that is a private, men's-only racquet facility, it is across from the Winter Club. I am not sure if it is the Winnipeg Racquet Club or if it is called the Winnipeg Squash Club, something like that. It is an exclusively men's-only facility.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I notice it is listed on the competition venue as one of the venues, the Winnipeg Squash Club, which my understanding of the squash club-I think the member is partly right-I think the club itself is open to both men and women, but I believe the games or exercise component is restricted to men, if I understand correctly.
The allocation for squash of $70,000 and $5,700, I will have to determine what the allocation is, what the breakdown is, and whether or not any money is, in fact, being provided to the Winnipeg Squash Club. So I will undertake to provide that breakdown.
* (1750)
Ms. Cerilli: I have talked to the owner there. They are getting money, and it is a men's-only club. You know, you are open to verify it. I have raised the issue. I will look forward to your response once you have had a chance to look into it.
I want to raise one other question in terms of venues quickly and to see if there is any money going into Balmoral Hall School for girls in terms of it being a venue for anything to do with the Pan Am Games.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I do not believe it is identified on the list that I provided a copy of to the member. I will undertake to check, and I will confirm with her as to whether or not Balmoral Hall is a venue, and, whether or not it is, if it is, whether it is receiving any financial support.
Ms. Cerilli: Is there any policy with respect to the public money going to facilities that are privately owned? Was there any attempt to be made to having the money going to public facilities, first, ones that are owned by the city Parks and Recreation, the universities, that type of thing, and how many private institutions are receiving grants to become venues for the Pan Am Games?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, just so I understand, my understanding is the first objective is to use community facilities wherever possible, and if they are not appropriate and/or available, then to look at nonprofit organizations. I am not aware of any private facilities, privately owned facilities that are receiving investments.
But I will confirm that with the Pan Am Games Society and get back to the member basically in terms of those criteria, confirming obviously if there was any privately owned facility that is benefiting or receiving support from the Pan Am Games.
Ms. Cerilli: I guess the last question I will ask is that we are having to close off yours-and I just want to make the comment. First of all, we spent a lot of time discussing the Pan Am Games, but, given the importance of this event in terms of the public expenditure, I think that it has been valuable. But I do want it on record that I had wanted to ask questions about a lot of the other issues that I mentioned in my opening statement, but I think that it is good that we have gone into the detail on the Pan Am Games.
My last question has to do with the ballpark. In the minister's opinion, where is this at? What is holding up the decisions? Where are we in terms of the time line necessary for this facility to be constructed in time for the Pan Am Games and its approval as an international facility and venue for the games?
Mr. Stefanson: The issue of the ballpark proposal is currently at City Hall, the Winnipeg City Hall. I believe it is going to their next council meeting which is any day now. They will be making decisions in terms of providing the land, because they are looking to build a facility on City of Winnipeg land, so that is the next step in the process.
I think, as the member knows, under the infrastructure program we have notionally set aside $3 million, which will be a million from the provincial government, a million from the federal government and a million from either the city and/or the project supporters for the facility. So that money is set aside pending, obviously, the approvals of City Hall and a satisfactory business plan and satisfactory community access, because if we are going to put money into that facility, we want to be sure that there is reasonable community access for the Pan Am Games, for other community events and so on. At this particular point in time, we are awaiting the decisions of City Hall, which I think they meet-it is either this week or next week.
Ms. Cerilli: Pass.
Mr. Chairperson: 28.1 Sport (a) Sport Manitoba $10,065,000-pass.
28.1.(b) Major Sport Initiatives (1) Team Canada Volleyball Centre $75,000-pass; (2) 1999 Pan American Games $4,000,000-pass; (3) 1997 Canada Games $694,000-pass.
28.1.(c) Manitoba Boxing Commission $29,100- pass.
28.1.(d) Other Expenditures $40,000-pass.
Resolution 28.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $14,903,100 for Sport for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1998.
This now concludes the Estimates of the Department of Sport. The next item to be considered will be the Department of Family Services. We invite the minister and the critic to please come forward.