Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Committee will come to order. Anyone wanting to carry on a conversation, I ask you to do so in the loge or out in the hall.

The committee come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply has been dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Justice. Would the minister's staff please enter the Chamber at this time. We are on Resolution 4.1. Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $406,200. Is that not where we were yesterday?

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Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Just in respect of a few issues, Mr. Chair, the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) raised a couple of matters some days ago in respect of the employment of Mr. Wyman Sangster as well as what is known as an Adjusted Vote.

Dealing firstly with the issue of Adjusted Vote: In both the main Estimates of Expenditure book and in each department's Supplementary Information for Legislative Review book, the figures quoted under Estimates of Expenditure 1996-97 represent the previous year's Adjusted Vote. An Adjusted Vote is defined as a realignment of the previous year's vote for any organizational change to provide for more accurate and realistic comparison from one budget year to another. This definition is contained in the glossary on page 111 of the Justice Estimates supplement.

Net transfers of voted authority between departments are noted in reconciliation statements provided in the main Estimates book for each department. Transfers within departments that do not affect the total voted authority may be included in the Adjusted Vote or may be shown as offsetting increases and decreases in separate appropriations. In deciding whether to use an Adjusted Vote transfer or to show year-over-year changes, a materiality test is applied. If the total funding level changes, or if the transfer is significant in terms of the amount of funding involved, it is reported as a separate increase or decrease. Likewise, if a change flows from a government decision to vary the services being provided or the method of program delivery, it is also reported in detail. However, if the change is small, is administrative in nature and is being accomplished without any impact on service delivery, it is usually included in the Adjusted Vote. This keeps unnecessary detail to a minimum.

Secondly, in respect of the employment of Mr. Sangster specifically, Mr. Sangster was originally retained in 1996 as a special advisor to the deputy minister. He was hired in a term status. His initial hearing was facilitated by the use of a temporarily vacant position in the Land Titles Office. In April of 1996, Land Titles was transferred to Consumer and Corporate Affairs, and so Mr. Sangster was transferred to a vacant position in Legislative Counsel. In developing the 1997-98 Estimates, having determined that the Legislative Counsel could continue to provide existing levels of service without the staff year in question, the authority was transferred to criminal Prosecutions in a 1996-97 Adjusted Vote transfer. Mr. Sangster, as I indicated earlier, was subsequently selected as director of Public Safety after an internal competition in criminal Prosecutions.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): What skills were sought then for the director of Public Safety?

Mr. Toews: I do not have the specific selection criteria or any ads that might have been circulated in the department here, but I can determine if that information is still available, and, if so, I can provide it to the member.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister provide a copy of the ad or the posting that details the qualifications sought and the rate of pay for the position?

Mr. Toews: To the extent that that information is still available, I will provide it.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is one of the skills that was sought managerial experience, given that this individual would be overseeing the functions of various branches of the department?

Mr. Toews: I will take that as part of the question.

Mr. Mackintosh: I am wondering when the minister can provide the answers to me on that.

Mr. Toews: I indicated if that information is available, I will provide it to him.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister advise what the rate of pay for the director of Public Safety is currently?

Mr. Toews: I do not have the rate of pay that he is being paid, but I will obtain that and provide that to the member.

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Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister tell the committee what arrangements were entered into with regard to pension for this particular position?

Mr. Toews: Yes, to the extent that that information can be disclosed, we will disclose it. I do not see any problem in respect of providing the member with the salary range of the individual in question or any benefits that he may have in respect of his position.

The extent to which that can be detailed is another question, but to the extent that we may, we will provide that information to the member.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister advise whether the pension scheme available for the director of Public Safety is the same as that available for the directors of, say, Law Enforcement Services, other directors in the Criminal Justice stream?

Mr. Toews: I am advised that the officials here are only aware that it is the standard provisions and benefits, and if that is altered in any way I will advise the member.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister tell the committee whether there is a position or whether there will be a newly created position of director of aboriginal policing within the Department of Justice?

Mr. Toews: Yes, there is a position to that effect.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister tell us when that position was created?

Mr. Toews: Yes, I can provide the member with those details.

Mr. Mackintosh: I am wondering where the appropriation is for that position in the current Estimates.

Mr. Toews: Yes, Mr. Chair, the position came from the subappropriation number 04-2D. That is right. That is where the position is, and it is at the line under total Salaries and Employee Benefits, 14 staff years, there was an Adjusted Vote transfer, and this accounted for two positions, a director and a support staff.

Mr. Mackintosh: The total SYs are the same year over year. I am just wondering, were there two positions, two SYs, taken from somewhere else in Law Enforcement?

Mr. Toews: Yes, those came from 04-4D, which on the prior year's vote would have been 164.26 and is now 162.26. That was done through that Adjusted Vote transfer.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is the minister saying that the SYs came from 04-4D, Community Corrections?

Mr. Toews: That is correct.

Mr. Mackintosh: I do not see any difference year over year for SYs there either. I am wondering if the minister could clarify that further.

Mr. Toews: If one looks at the prior year's vote, it would have been, as I indicated, 164.26, and the transfer was done through an Adjusted Vote transfer last year.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister tell the committee whether there has been a hiring yet for the director of aboriginal policing?

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Mr. Toews: Yes, there has. Mr. Jack Gashyna is the director of aboriginal policing.

Mr. Mackintosh: When did Mr. Gashyna effectively become the director?

Mr. Toews: Unless the member wants any more specific information, all I can indicate here is that it was some time within the last year.

Mr. Mackintosh: Was that position, that of director of aboriginal policing, posted? Was there a competition, and if so, who was the position open to?

Mr. Toews: In respect of the actual details, I do not know. I do not have those, and I will make those available to the member. I might indicate that I know that Mr. Gashyna has been a member of the Attorney General's department for some number of years. I recall last working with him in 1989 and 1990 when he was administering the motor vehicle impound in respect of the drinking-and-driving initiative that the government of Manitoba initiated in those years. So I know that he was a civil servant, has been one for some number of years, and exactly the process by which he became the director of aboriginal policing I am not clear, but I will get that information and some of the background material.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister, with the staff here, confirm whether or not there was a competition for this position?

Mr. Toews: I would rather not speculate. I would prefer to provide the member with absolutely accurate material.

Mr. Mackintosh: What skills were sought of the person to fill this position?

Mr. Toews: I will provide that material along with the background of the nature of the competition or appointment, if that is in fact what it was.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is the minister aware of whether Mr. Gashyna has a background in policing or policing administration or dealing with aboriginal communities?

Mr. Toews: I do not know his specific background, other than I know him to be a very competent administrator. He virtually set up the administrative process by which he would liaison with the various garage keepers and lien holders in respect of motor vehicles. I know that he has, I believe, an accounting background, but I know him to be a very good administrator of various programs that he has been involved in-certainly had nothing but good experience with his ability to administer the seizure of motor vehicles. Mr. Gashyna had a number of duties in addition to liaisoning with various interest groups, including the police at that time, which he had very close and continued contact in administering these contracts.

He also worked with the garage keepers. I can recall a number of times when we either consulted directly or I would go out to meet with members of the garage keepers industry to discuss the setting of fees, the establishment of regulations and getting input from these groups as to what they considered an appropriate level of fee. I know we consulted with RCMP. We consulted with members of the public. We consulted with all sorts of people. Mr. Gashyna was able to take a lot of this information and indeed, I think, had a large part in the actual drafting of the applicable regulations, either through the provision of the raw material for the draftspeople or assisting in the wording or setting up of the structure.

Mr. Gashyna not only then liaised with the police departments, the industry-as I recall, it was not just the RCMP, but the City of Winnipeg Police that he spent quite a bit of time with. I know that there were many concerns, and I remember him dealing with these situations very, very well. He had an incredible ability to get to the root of a problem to ensure that the people involved in these discussions realized that the government was concerned about the particular situation that they found themselves in, particularly the garage keepers.

One of the fascinating features about the Seizure and Impoundment Registry and program was the amount of co-operation from private industry. I doubt if it could have been done without the co-operation of the private industry. There had been suggestions that we should be creating a whole new government department to deal with these seizures and creating a huge lot that would be fenced in where all these motor vehicles would be kept.

Now that may make sense in the context of perhaps the city of Winnipeg where you could have a central impound lot, but when one realizes that the problem of drinking and driving and suspended driving occurs not just in the city of Winnipeg but also in rural areas, it was clear that that was not a feasible alternative, and we did not want to set up separate impoundment yards and all the additional cost and personnel that would involve.

So I recall Mr. Gashyna and I had numerous discussions with garage keepers, realizing that the RCMP at the time utilized garage keepers to impound motor vehicles when they were doing an investigation and that throughout the province these garage keepers had appropriate facilities to store cars. I recall one of the issues that Mr. Gashyna had to deal with, in terms of dealing with the police in the communities and with the garage keepers, is to ensure that there was an appropriate impound location in each area.

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One of the other things, I might add, is that he provided a lot of practical assistance to the police forces with specific problems that would come up in the course of the administration and also with the garage keepers who had concerns, like concerns about liability, who was liable for the motor vehicle when it was stored on their property. I know we discussed that and resolved some of those issues. So, again, to my recollection and indeed my direct experience with him, he was quite capable of liaising, discussing contracts with police departments, with garage keepers throughout the province and not only that, he had another side to his job and that was to deal with members of the public. Members of the public whose motor vehicle had been seized would call up and ask how to proceed, and he certainly gave them the appropriate advice, directing them to the appropriate magistrate's office in their area so that if they wanted to they could commence an action to release the car.

As you may recall, Mr. Chair, the legislation deals with the registered owner being responsible for the motor vehicle. So, even if it was a driver of the motor vehicle who was suspended, the registered owner would be the one who would make the application to release that motor vehicle.

So he, in fact, was very adept at providing the advice and indeed administering communications with the police. He would receive hundreds of the documents that related to the impoundment, and it was his responsibility to administer that office to ensure that cars would be tracked and kept track of. He also identified the problem where the amount of the lien exceeded the value of the motor vehicle and then devised a mechanism which was sanctioned by legislation to ensure that there was a mechanism for the garage keeper then to be able to sell the motor vehicle where it was evident that the owner no longer had an interest in that motor vehicle and that the garage keeper could do so without fear of civil liability.

Much of this is coming back to me, and I know that some of the staff here would have worked very closely with Mr. Gashyna. I know that one of the staff here, Mr. Pat Sinnott, has worked very closely with Mr. Gashyna over the years and, without putting words in Mr. Sinnott's mouth, I think it is a fair comment to say that Mr. Gashyna has broad management experience both in the private sector and in government. He has, aside from the areas that I know directly about, that is, the seizure of motor vehicles, worked on financial reporting and management improvement projects.

He has reviewed and streamlined the Freedom of Information processes. As you know, it was our government in 1988 that brought into effect The Freedom of Information Act, and while it might be simple in terms of philosophy, often the administration or the implementation of these plans are very, very complicated and require much thought and consideration. Initially, sometimes you will find that administrative processes that are brought in get the job done, but they are cumbersome and they lead to the types of complaints from the public that indicate, you know-that raise these spectres of red tape and bureaucratic boondoggling. I know that is not a fair thing to say about our public service. I think our public service works well if one gives them the appropriate tools to work with.

So one of Mr. Gashyna's tasks, as I understand it, was to review and streamline the FOI process, the Freedom of Information process, so that members of the public, who were anxious or for whatever reason of their own wanted to acquire government information, would in fact have a positive experience in the sense of not being unduly burdened by bureaucratic or technical demands. I know that he is also worked on enhancing case-file tracking in Prosecutions.

This is all to say that he has a very good understanding of the administrative workings of government, has improved many systems, has worked in terms of negotiating contracts and arrangements with members of the public, special interest groups who may in fact have a legitimate concern. If we are going to rely on them as a part of a government policy, then we in fact need to ensure that they understand it.

I think that from the experience of my staff and certainly myself personally, he is well suited to negotiating and managing agreements, and he certainly has developed quite a bit of expertise on policing and works very well with the RCMP and other police forces in that respect. I think also it should be noted, it has been brought to my attention, that the Ombudsman complimented the department of the Attorney General regarding the Freedom of Information after the reorganization after there had been some criticism, and I think that this is, again, some credit-to the extent I cannot exactly say, because I do not want to overplay the role of one public servant in the context of an entire department. But this is an individual who I know reviewed and streamlined these processes, and in that respect I think there is a portion of that credit that was given by the Ombudsman to the department to individuals working in his branch and specifically to Mr. Gashyna.

I could go on for a bit in respect of some of the other attributes, but I think in terms of a summary and a preliminary indication of the quality of some of the public servants that we do have here in the Province of Manitoba, that is sufficient, and I can undertake to see what other information is available and discuss that with the member for St. Johns in the near future.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 4.1. Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $406,200-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $81,000-pass.

4.1.(c) Policy, Planning and Special Projects (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $208,400-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $147,200-pass.

4.1.(d) Financial and Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $791,000-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $233,300-pass.

4.1.(e) Human Resource Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $600,100-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $148,100-pass.

4.1.(f) Computer Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $472,300.

Mr. Mackintosh: Under this branch, is there knowledge of what our fine collection rates are?

Mr. Toews: My information is that would more appropriately come under Courts 5.(a) or 5.(b).

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Mr. Mackintosh: As well, I ask whether there is any centralized traffic fine processing? Is that here or under Courts?

Mr. Toews: That would also be under Courts. I understand that there is a common offence notice computer system which would probably deal with some of the concerns that the member might have.

Mr. Chairperson: 4.1 (f) Computer Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $472,300-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $404,100-pass.

4.2 Criminal Justice (a) Prosecutions (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $5,954,100.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is the minister aware of concerns expressed from Crown attorneys as to their workload?

Mr. Toews: It is always our concern that the professional people, our public servants who work for the public of Manitoba, have an appropriate workload, and we do want to, as much as possible, ensure that, working within our fiscal framework and the demands of our legal system, Crown attorneys have an appropriate amount of time to prepare cases and to fulfill their obligations in law.

I know that from time to time concerns are raised as to workload, and one of the things for which I am very complimentary of the administration is the proactive way in which they react to complaints, but not only react to complaints but to also move in a very proactive way. One does not simply look at a department and say, well, we have reorganized and now it is going to be okay. I think the issue is a constant challenge for administrative staff.

For a number of reasons there was a Prosecutions reorganization to address problems that have been identified or problems that have been perceived, or simply to reduce administrative issues that perhaps were in the way of these individuals completing their job or indeed not assisting them in completing their job.

I know sometimes the criticism of administration in government is that it stands in the way of what everybody knows needs to be done and quotes from various books and manuals that were all enacted and all passed and all developed for good purpose, but sometimes the issue of service to the public is lost. I think more and more what the department has been concentrating on is to ensure that the administration facilitates, especially in this context, our criminal Crown attorneys to get the job done. So rather than administration blocking, it is facilitating the work of the Crown attorneys. I know it is sometimes very difficult to see, if you look at the black and white of paper, if, for example, Crown attorney numbers are exactly the same. I am not stating that that in fact is the case here, but even if numbers are unchanged in terms of actual people working in the courts, sometimes with the change in administrative processes, the individual workload on a Crown attorney can be substantially reduced.

With certain concerns in mind, there was a reorganization of the Public Prosecutions branch, and I think one of, if I can say, the defining moments or high points was in October 1996 when Mr. Rob Finlayson was selected as the director of Prosecutions. Now Mr. Finlayson is here, and I would say the same things behind his back as I am going to say in front of him, and fortunately they are all good. I know Mr. Finlayson for a number of years. He certainly has a very, very good reputation as a criminal prosecutor, has a very good reputation among his colleagues, not just in the criminal bar, in fact that is the criminal Crown attorney bar, but the defence bar as well.

I think when he was appointed there was very substantial concurrence with that selection process, which again went through committee. Mr. Finlayson, I know, would be the Crown attorney probably getting on to 20 years, and one of the things that was recognized about Mr. Finlayson was not just that he is a good courtroom lawyer, but that he has administrative skills.

One of the things that I have mentioned earlier in this discussion is that it is sometimes very difficult to recognize people appropriately in government. It is always seen as, well, give them a promotion, they will get a little bit more money and, thereby, recognizing them. Sometimes people have been promoted into administrative positions in order to recognize their good qualities or to recognize their past contribution. I think this particular appointment is an appointment that does not simply recognize past contributions but indeed recognizes good skills that make him particularly suited for a position, essentially an administrative position, yes, in a legal position, but an administrative position as the director of Prosecutions.

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In January of 1997, two deputy directors were selected. Ms. Lynn Stannard, was appointed the deputy director of Intake, and Mr. Mike Watson, Q.C., was selected as the deputy director of Trials. Now, of those two, I would know Mr. Mike Watson perhaps better than Ms. Lynn Stannard. Mr. Watson certainly has a very, very good reputation, originally coming as a Crown attorney from Alberta, where he had a very good reputation I believe in some appellate work, did a lot of Alberta Court of Appeal work and was certainly well recognized for administrative abilities that he had. He was selected. Unfortunately, Mr. Watson has just recently announced that he is moving on to British Columbia, where he is going to take up a position with the Securities Commission, and I think that is a real loss for the Province of Manitoba.

I wish him well in his new duties, but, certainly, I think his skills and his contribution will be missed, which is not to say that there are not others who could fill his position, but I know that this was a difficult process to select two people in these positions, Ms. Lynn Stannard and Mr. Mike Watson, and sometimes you feel you have exactly the right person and, indeed, we believe we did. He, of course, is going on to other things, other professional challenges, and we believe that we will, of course, find another person to take that place in due course.

Then, following the appointment of these two individuals, a number of senior Crown attorneys were selected, five in Winnipeg and five in rural Manitoba. I think the member will be happy to know that I will not go into all of these, but I think, again, indicative of a very high quality of Crowns that we have here in the Province of Manitoba.

A senior Crown attorney was selected for each of the following rural areas, Portage la Prairie, Brandon, Dauphin, The Pas and Thompson. In each of these areas, we were taking positions from within the department, so it was not a competition that was open to the general public or the general legal profession but, in fact, simply a reorganization of existing staff years. There were not 10 new positions that we could fill. These appointments were made, and these senior Crown attorneys, that is, all 10 of them, report directly to the director of Prosecutions. We anticipate that the complete reorganization of the Winnipeg Crown attorney's office will be completed by the early fall of 1997.

In getting to the member's point-and I am glad I had the opportunity to raise, I think, what is a proactive measure on the part of the department-are a number of points that must be raised which deal directly with the concern that Crown attorneys from time to time might have about a large workload.

What the reorganization does is place a greater emphasis on the early screening of all police reports with a view of disposing of all cases at the earliest possible date. Screening plays a very important role in lessening the trials that are eventually going ahead or indeed the cases that need to be put into the system for an extended period of time. If one looks at the particular police reports and determines that perhaps the charge is inappropriate or indeed the charge is the wrong one or if, in fact, an appropriate conviction can be secured at the earliest possible time, this changes and saves a lot in terms of the resources that are required of Crown attorneys.

It is a simple mathematical equation. If you have a hundred cases coming in and you are effectively able to screen out 30 or 40 on a preliminary basis to review the work that has been done by the police and determine precisely what is the best Crown case in each case, that has a tremendous beneficial impact in terms of the workload on Crown attorneys further down the system or further along the system, if I could say that rather.

Under this reorganization, the specialized units of Family Violence and Youth Prosecutions will continue to operate. I think it is always important to remember that when you are reorganizing, one has to determine, are there, in fact, any existing resources that are, in fact, doing a very, very good job or an acceptable job. We do not want to throw out the baby with the bath water. So when you reorganize, make sure that you keep that which is in fact good in the system. I think the youth prosecutions, specifically, and family violence are good examples as well as special prosecutions which is also continuing as a part of this reorganization, have demonstrated their effectiveness over the years.

As well, to assist in the early screening of all cases, what is going to be happening is that the Prosecutions Branch will be locating Crown attorneys at the Public Safety Building. One of those Crowns started on April 28, 1997, and a second Crown should be in place shortly, within the next month or so.

What these Crowns will then have is the responsibility for screening out all custody police reports to determine if they should be referred to alternative measures or be referred back to the police for further investigation or forwarded to the Crowns in intake to be prosecuted. So we have, I think, a very good example of how closely Crown attorneys work with the police. It is not simply the police creating a case in isolation, but in fact there is an opportunity to consult and provide guidance and direction in respect of particular cases. So I think this again is another example about how the Crown attorneys at this particular place will then create a beneficial effect for the other Crown attorneys who are responsible for the actual formal prosecution of a case such as a case going to trial or indeed a person pleading guilty and a sentencing hearing taking place.

Again, the importance of alternative measures cannot be underestimated. I want to say in respect of the youth justice committees which are under a different appropriation, but I think it also should be noted how important those committees are. As I understand it, there are over 70 youth justice committees here in the province of Manitoba, and they in any one year-I believe in the last year dealt with 2,400 cases. When you think of 2,400 cases taken out of the system and dealt with, not in order to avoid responsibility for action, but indeed allowing the community to have input in how these individuals should be dealt with, I think, is very, very positive.

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One of the things about alternative measures is that then creates a sense of responsibility by a potential or an accused, indeed someone who has admitted that he is liable for the act, because that is how they get into this particular system. So there is a sense of responsibility that is created on the part of these individuals. The measure, I think, is very, very successful, not only in the low amount of recidivism that is demonstrated by people who go through this system, but also by the beneficial impact on Crown attorneys in terms of lessening their workload and that they can focus their skills on the cases that truly require their specific expertise.

In saying this, I am not saying that one system is more important than the other, but this is in fact an ability to utilize community resources in an appropriate way and indeed utilize Crown attorneys more effectively. I would not say that Crown attorneys indeed have an easy time of it because of this, but certainly it assists in lowering their caseload.

I think also it should be stated that there will be and is a greater emphasis on the Crown attorneys in the intake unit as I had indicated that Ms. Lynn Stannard who is a prosecutor of some years experience-perhaps not quite as many as Mr. Finlayson-but certainly some years of experience, is the director of intake. What this in effect does is to ensure that only appropriate cases are forwarded on for trial and to ensure that these cases are trial ready. So that again will be the focus of this particular group.

One of the things I think that I know, speaking as once having worked as a line Crown attorney, often the line Crown attorney years ago was responsible for all types of things, and still is, but what we try to do is lessen the things that Crown attorney should be worrying about and focus on the matters where he or she has particular expertise. So we are looking forward to this particular unit assisting in the prosecution of cases by taking care of administrative concerns and also perhaps evidentiary issues as well.

The trial units which Mr. Mike Watson was responsible for will have then the ultimate responsibility of doing final screening of all files and setting these matters down for trial. What the trial units then will do is help ensure that individual Crown attorneys follow through with their files until they are ultimately disposed of, that is including appeal if appropriate.

One of the things I think that can be said is that even though we have people screening at the various levels, we want to emphasize more and more Crown ownership of a file, that is, the individual Crown having ownership. I can recall a number of years ago when I prosecuted a particular case with a senior Crown attorney in Brandon that it was a very significant case where a young girl had been murdered and a specific trial result had been achieved. In the rural areas what would occur is that the same Crown attorney, in fact it was me, would take the transfer application, do the transfer application to adult court, then do the preliminary hearing, and then assist, if it was not appropriate for that person to do the trial by him or herself, in the conduct of the actual jury trial, and this was one of those cases.

Now that particular case went on to the Court of Appeal where another Crown, and not the same Crown who was involved in the other three hearings, was involved. I think sometimes what happens is that the Crown attorney at the Court of Appeal level does not always have all the information available that the trial Crown would have had. So what this system will try to do is ensure as much as possible a continuous dealing by one or a pair of Crowns of a particular case so as to ensure that there is continuity.

Again what this has bears directly on the member's question. What this in fact then does, if the same Crown attorney does the transfer, does the preliminary hearing, does the trial, does the appeal, there is no need to refresh another Crown attorney's mind with the details, and often complicated details, of any particular case. So by giving a Crown responsibility for a particular case, it frees up other Crowns to do other work. So I am very pleased that the member raised that question because it is an issue that we have been working on quite diligently.

One final point, I think, that needs to be made and was raised by the Chief Justice in his annual report in respect to the courts, and that relates to technology. I think that despite the fact that the law is often old and a bit creaky, that does not mean that one cannot take advantage of new mechanisms to deal with administering a criminal justice system. So what we are looking to do is to install a computer system so that the Crowns have case information, other information, available to them on a computer system.

This, again, we believe, will assist them in keeping files to a minimum and in ensuring that the appropriate information is always available to them. The system of retrieving files and filing files away is often a time-consuming and a time-delay issue, and, so, again, the computer system will, by having this information directly available, assist in the burden on the support staff and indeed on the criminal prosecutor.

I trust that that will, in fact, give the member some comfort that this is an issue that we take very seriously and are taking positive steps to deal with.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is the minister satisfied and can he ensure that the prosecutors are fully aware of the role and potential of the youth justice committees? I can speak for one committee, for example, the St. Johns Youth Justice Council, which we are very proud of in our community which actually is not getting enough cases, and the council was wondering how there can be a greater number of cases referred to the community which we think are dealt with more effectively, for some types of cases at least.

So I wonder if there is a mechanism in place to ensure the timely and generous referral, perhaps I can use that phrase, of cases to the youth justice committees or to particular justice committees. I know some have varying degrees of participation at different times, and that might cause some concern, but I think that there should be a full realization of the benefit of those committees or councils.

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Mr. Toews: I thank the member for St. Johns for the question. I think it is a particularly appropriate question, and I believe that as the Department of Justice we can do more in that respect.

Despite the fact that our province has the highest number of youth justice committees, I agree with the member for St. Johns that there are additional supports that we should be providing and, indeed, look at ways of ensuring that these resources that we have out there in the community are utilized in an appropriate manner, and I do not want to use the term "exploit" these resources, but I mean that in the positive sense, if I were to use that term. The utilization of these very, very highly skilled individuals on some of these committees, I think, is a real asset to the justice system.

I know I spoke to a number of youth justice committees and also to the probation officers who are responsible for youth justice committees generally. Mr. Roger Bates is the probation officer in charge of youth justice committees throughout the province. What I have asked my officials to do is that I can meet with the probation officers who are responsible for the youth justice committees directly. I want to talk to them about the youth justice committees to see how we can utilize these committees further.

It is interesting, and the member has touched on a very interesting point: Could there be a more generous referral of cases to these youth justice committees? I might say that I have received indications, and I want to discuss this further with the probation officers, and I do not want to make any snap judgments, but there is an unease among some of the probation officers, that they feel that the role of the youth justice committee would somehow supplant their role as probation officers, and I do not see it that way at all. If there is one thing that we can say about the criminal justice system, there is enough work for everybody to go around.

What we have to ensure is that, just the same way that we are utilizing Crown attorneys for more effective dispositions in case and concentrating on particular cases and letting others deal with the administrative concerns, I think so, too, these probation officers, who have excellent skills and excellent community contacts, we have to sit down and talk with them in order to ensure that we are utilizing them in the most appropriate way. I know some of the probation officers that I have talked with on an individual basis have expressed the same concern that the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) has: Why can we not be sending more cases there?

That is one of the issues that I want to raise with the probation officers when I meet with them directly. I have a meeting set up with these probation officers, and I want to raise those types of issues. So any concerns or comments that the members might have at this time in that respect, I would appreciate them putting on the record so that my staff can, in fact, look at those issues and so the probation officers also know that these youth justice committees are not designed to put them out of a job, but rather to focus their energy in the areas of expertise that they are well recognized for.

One of the ways in terms of increasing youth justice committee involvement is the involvement of the committee dealing not just with young offenders, but also with adults. In fact, there are some committees that deal with adults. I met with one particular committee, and I do not know if it is appropriate to say the name, but we discussed that issue specifically. That committee indicated that their referrals were people anywhere from the age of 12 years old to I believe it was in the mid-50s. What they have found is that their dealing with these individuals has been as effective in terms of the lack of recidivism as in dealing with teenagers.

So I think that this is a mechanism that can be more appropriately utilized in other areas as well and not just for young offenders. I think this is an example of where one end of the justice system learns from the experiences of another, and we can deal with more cases in a more socially productive manner.

The issue of youth justice committees always raises the question of, are you diverting people from the court system so that they can escape their consequences for the actions that they have committed, and I would say not. Clearly the referrals have been done of people who are appropriate. Issues of public safety are always in the mind of people making these referrals, so appropriate people can only be referred. Even if a person has been through the youth justice committee once, that does not mean that in special occasions one cannot divert that same person for another hearing before a youth justice committee. I know that in fact has been done, and it has worked beneficially. So the committee that dealt with that person once deals with them again, and they have the time to deal with these individuals in a time-intensive way, because that is what some of these cases need. It is not simply grinding people through a system and getting a result at the end and then patting them on the back and wishing them best. But it involves the implementation of plans that I think are so fundamental to ensuring that these offenders recognize a responsibility for their actions and that they have an obligation to the community.

I might say, one of the people indicated to me, and this might be one of the reasons why we have to be a little hesitant about referring too many people, that there is a lack of suitable programs to put these people in. We have to work at developing that, not so much from the government side in terms of government-created programs, but the private sector. You can understand how a particular shop owner might have a concern about having someone clean his store up after the person has perhaps cleaned his store out, and it is something that one has to be sensitive about. There are also issues of liability, people injured at the workplace and how that was dealt with. Those are all issues that need to be dealt with. I think that they are not insurmountable problems. So I thank the member for the question. Certainly, that exact point that he raised will be the subject of a discussion with the probation officers and myself in the department.

Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): As the minister knows, this is a subject that I have a great deal of interest in. I think this is going on my seventh year being an honorary probation officer. I was appointed by Minister of Justice McCrae. So I have been involved in youth justice committees for a long time, and some of the issues that are being dealt with today are ones that were being dealt with back then. I think we have a Minister of Justice who is very supportive of youth justice committees, and I would offer any of the experience and knowledge I have from seven years of working on, first, the North Winnipeg Youth Justice Committee, setting up The Maples, helping other people set up youth justice committees, and seeing the benefits and some of the problems that have gone with them.

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When the minister was talking about some of the benefits of referring cases to alternative measures, one of the ones that he did not mention that I think is very important is, it gives the community a sense that they have some control over the justice system. A lot of members of the public will say, oh, nothing happens when someone gets arrested. By being involved in a justice committee, they can actually have an impact on what happens to those people who commit crimes in their community. They feel they have some empowerment, and it does make a difference. I found some of the best committee members are the ones that said that the justice system does not serve victims, and when they get on the justice committees, they find it is not a black-and-white issue, it is a complicated issue. I could take the rest of the Estimates time just on talking about this subject, but I will ask some direct questions about some immediate problems that I see.

Right now one of the problems is, the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) mentioned, that in his committee they are not getting that many cases. Well, there always has been this feast and famine on justice committees. Either you are getting too many cases or you are not getting enough. They come in large amounts or nothing at all. I do not know why that is, if it is the way they are screened or what.

The other problem is the type of cases. I could think that possibly the reason for St. Johns's committee not getting it is that the type of cases that the Crown is comfortable referring, you know, shoplifting offences, less serious offences, maybe there are not that many, and the types of offences that are occurring in his area are more serious and not the types that you would refer to alternative measures.

On our justice committee in The Maples, sometimes we are receiving cases that we do not think should be referred to justice committees. They are too serious, unless there is more training, more resources given to justice committees; I think they have to look at the type of committee. So I am talking about the number of cases, how they are screened, so they come in in spurts, the type of cases, either too serious-and the most important subject is, what happens to the cases that are returned to the Crown? Alternative measures is an option that is given to the offender that possibly could work, but so often there is this feeling on justice committees that, if it is sent back to the Crown, because of the time delay, the case will be written off; no action will be taken.

I think I could show some examples of it. If it is referred to a justice committee and after three months it is returned back to the Crown, it is just filed. No court action is instituted. It is left. So the hammer that justice committee has of returning cases to the Crown means nothing, because once kids in a small community find out that, if they do not comply with the justice committees, the case goes back to the Crown and, hey, the Crown, as far as he is concerned he has written that case off; it went to alternative measures.

The last point is the length of time. For that type of work, alternative measures to work, it is the timeliness of the disposition. Now, especially when alternative measures ends up being a plea bargain, part of a plea bargain, it could be a year after the case before it is even referred to the justice committee.

So some poor justice committee is interviewing a 14-year-old; by the time it is plea bargained, it goes through the probation services, I have seen cases come through that are 14 months old, and you are sitting down talking to a young offender how they feel about the case. Well, to a 14-year-old, a year ago is a lifetime away.

So the time of the referrals is a problem, and I would recommend to the minister that he has someone in his department do a study. It is easy enough because they are all date stamped. They are date stamped from when the offence happened to when they are taken in by the intake of the Crown to when they are received by probation to when they go to the justice committee.

I did such a study a couple of years ago, and the slowest part of the process was not in the referral from the police to the Crown, not in the time that the committee took, but the referral from the Crown to the justice committees, which sometimes is an inordinate amount of time, just a phenomenal amount of time, which means that the disposition has less value. I would recommend to the Minister of Justice that he look at doing a study, either a sampling or a system-wide study, on the amount of time it is taking these alternative-measures cases to go through; and, with the cases that are returned back to the Crown, do they get lost? Is any action taken? Is there any meaningful prosecution on cases that the justice committees are unsuccessful with?

Mr. Chairperson: The committee will take a five-minute recess.

The committee recessed at 3:57 p.m.

The committee resumed at 4:14 p.m.

Mr. Chairperson: The committee will come to order.

Mr. Toews: I appreciate the comments made by the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski), and I have had an opportunity to briefly discuss that with the members of my staff here.

Clearly, the issue of a quick resolution of justice issues is always an important matter and I think especially so in the context of the alternative measures that a youth justice committee works in. I think that my staff will take a serious look at that particular situation, and while I could not define exactly what the scope of any review would be, I will be encouraging my staff to look at that particular issue, firstly the one raised by the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh), the referral of appropriate cases, and also the swiftness of the referrals is very important.

I certainly thank both members for those comments because I know of their keen interest in these youth justice committees. This is a tremendous resource for the justice system, and we want to work together on that particular issue.

Mr. Mackintosh: Has the Prosecutions division looked at whether conspiracy charges can be laid in the case of criminal activity by gang leaders?

Mr. Toews: An interesting question. The member must, of course, realize that conspiracy, per se, is not a substantive offence. It is not an offence to conspire. Members of my staff may be seen whispering here in respect of various matters, but even though that may look to an outsider like some kind of a conspiracy, the fact is it may be a conspiracy but none that is prohibited to law. In fact, it may well advance the interests of law.

So when we look at the issue of conspiracy, I think what the member is talking about is can gang members by virtue of the mere fact that they are gang members be charged with an offence. Clearly not, but if it can be shown that these individuals are acting in concert with each other for the purpose of some particular offence such as a robbery, if they are sitting around discussing a robbery, and even though they never committed the robbery, they could well be guilty of the offence of conspiracy to commit a robbery or indeed to attempt to commit a robbery depending on how far down the preparation and planning stage that would be. I do not want to get too particular about that.

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I think the mechanism is a good one, and I would certainly encourage police officers to use that in all appropriate cases. One of the things that the American RECO law does is in fact utilize that conspiracy idea to a certain extent. Although I am by no means an expert in American law, this RECO law, which essentially deals with racketeering and gang activities, I know that it facilitates the procurement of convictions under that particular law in situations where the general statutory or common law did not afford a remedy, and the American government was very successful in prosecuting individuals under those racketeering statutes.

I think, without wanting to unduly praise the Liberal Minister of Justice during an election campaign, some credit, though, has to be given to him for moving in that direction, given his new gang law initiative. This law, I think, adds an important tool to the retinue of the tools available to police officers and I think will be utilized with frequency as the intricacies of this law are worked out and exactly what it does is discussed by the courts.

I know that the Crown attorneys have all been advised of the new laws. I read a memo that came out in the department that was circulated to the Crown attorneys, and so, again, this is something I would see the intake Crowns looking at when a police officer brings a particular matter forward for consideration for prosecution.

I am certain that the conspiracy charge has been used in one form or another in the last little while. Whether it was effective I do not know, but I think this gang law initiative in fact provides a really good mechanism for utilizing a conspiracy-like law, and certainly we welcome any progressive tools that the federal government gives us in respect of law enforcement.

Mr. Mackintosh: What comprises the grants of $30,000 under the Prosecutions division under Programs and Grants?

Mr. Toews: I am advised that deals with the language bank grants for interpreters for witnesses and accused.

Mr. Mackintosh: There was a workplace safety incident that resulted in the prosecution against Power Vac, and I wonder if the minister can advise why it was the position of the department not to seek the maximum sanctions available under the legislation in that case.

Mr. Toews: I want to indicate to the member, of course, that all violations of the law are very, very seriously dealt with, and decisions as to what sentence is appropriate are made regularly by Crown attorneys in terms of advancing a particular position.

These individuals look at issues such as past offences of the accused, co-operation of the accused and similar sentences given to other individuals. I do not know what particular facts prompted the prosecutor to ask for the sentence that was asked for, and as I recall it, the prosecutor, despite asking for one sentence, the accused received a lesser sentence than was asked for. So I know that there was less of a sentence granted by the court than was asked for, if my memory serves me correctly. I could be corrected in that respect, and the members of my staff will have that information available to you.

But one of the things that we have to remember about The Workplace Safety and Health Act, and I am very pleased to see that the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gilleshammer) is present here, sitting behind me, in fact. The Workplace Safety and Health Act was passed by the NDP government, and one of the main points of that particular act was, in the words of the architect of that act-his name was Victor Rabinovitch. Victor Rabinovitch said that this act, the focus is not criminal prosecutions but indeed an educational process in order to ensure that the employers, the workers and all other interested persons, I think, or persons affected, that is the phrase in The Workplace Safety and Health Act, know of their responsibilities in the workforce.

The Workplace Safety and Health Act is, in fact, one of the most progressive pieces of workplace legislation in the sense of bringing democracy to the workplace. It gives workers a sense of empowerment that they can make decisions about issues that affect their safety and in consultation with employers responsible for the workplace, make recommendation. Issues can be identified in the workplace and referred to this committee. Committee can make certain determinations and make the workplace a safer place, thereby avoiding some of the tremendous amounts of injuries and damage that can be caused as a result of workplace safety and health.

The issue of what is an appropriate sentence, of course, is always brought up, but one has to understand that the legislation that was passed by the NDP government specifically was not designed to effect or to obtain prosecutions and convictions as much as it was this empowering of workers to ensure that there was a mechanism that safety matters would be dealt with.

I view this legislation much the same way that one can contrast general criminal legislation where the judge simply makes an order and the disposition is ordered and the parties walk away. What there is is an implicit recognition in the legislation that it does not matter who is there at the workplace. These people will continue to work together and so a resolution of any problem must take the two parties in mind.

That, I think, the act has accomplished very, very well. If you look at the statistics, for example, during the NDP years and the numbers of deaths that occurred in the workplace and compare them to the numbers of deaths now in the last number of years-and I know the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gilleshammer) would have the statistics much more available and much more accurate than I would, but clearly there is a substantial decrease in the amount of deaths and injuries in traditionally dangerous areas. One does not argue this on the basis, well, in a particular area there are less workers. These statistics, as I understand them, as I recall them, deal with injuries on a per capita basis, so on a per capita basis in the workplace or on a per-thousand-workers basis.

So I do not know exactly the answer as to why a specific sentence was requested and why a specific sentence was granted, but one thing that I could indicate is that the officials in the department of the Attorney General or the Department of Justice found a great degree of co-operation with these particular individuals from the company, and they took a lot of remedial steps to ensure that this kind of incident does not happen.

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Clearly, that is the real focus of The Workplace Safety and Health Act, is not so much to punish but to ensure that incidents involving the safety and health of workers do not occur or are not repeated. So while that is indeed the philosophical focus of the legislation that was passed by the NDP government, we, in fact, on this side of the House have developed that philosophy and found that, in the development of that philosophy, rather than simply stressing prosecutions, emphasize the educational aspect. That has resulted in an appreciable decrease in serious injuries.

The Department of Labour and the Department of Justice, of course, work very, very closely together. Officials in my department, I would indicate, also met with the Manitoba Federation of Labour after the case was disposed of and discussed our position. They indeed, as I understand it, my officials advise me, agreed to work with their officials where they felt they could assist in these kinds of prosecutions with background information. So it is important that we bring the relevant unions into this picture to ensure that, when the prosecutors make a decision in respect of whether they will proceed, all relevant factors are considered.

I do not know if the member has any particular concern about the monetary penalty or other penalty that may have been imposed in this case. I know that the current Minister of Labour (Mr. Gilleshammer) has been or will be introducing a bill relative to the fines under that act.

So while we acknowledge that the entire philosophical thrust of that particular act is education and the creation of a safe workplace, one must never forget the importance of having a strong prosecutorial aspect to every statute to ensure that those few who consistently avoid the educational and other aspects of a statute understand that there are penal consequences for their disregard of the law.

Mr. Chairperson: 4.2.(a) Prosecutions (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $5,954,100-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,086,100-pass; (3) Witness Programs $582,000-pass.

4.2.(b) Office of the Chief Medical Examiner (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $402,900-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $964,900-pass; (3) Pediatric Cardiac Unit Inquest $626,800-pass.

4.2.(c) Provincial Policing $52,361,200-pass.

4.2.(d) Law Enforcement Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $634,600.

Mr. Mackintosh: What comprises the Crime Prevention Grants of $60,000 on that line?

Mr. Toews: The Crime Prevention Fund is essentially a mechanism to support community efforts in respect of crime. Over the past number of years the Crime Prevention Fund has had a budget of approximately $60,000, and over the past five years Manitoba has supported a broad base of community crime prevention programs with grants totalling in excess of $200,000.

I might indicate that on a relative term or relative context these grants are much smaller than perhaps grants that would be approved under the new Justice Initiatives program. But I can supply the member with some of the ones that I am aware of.

Mr. Mackintosh: On a point of order. We had canvassed some of the grants in earlier years, so my question would be what grants have been approved either for the current year so far or for the past fiscal year. If the minister wants to provide that in writing, then I will welcome that.

Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member did not have a point of order. It is basically a clarification of his question.

Mr. Toews: That is fine. I think that I can provide that in writing to the member.

Mr. Chairperson: The minister may want to at this time introduce his new staff who just entered the Chamber.

Mr. Toews: Yes, Mr. Bud McIvor from Law Enforcement Services.

Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honourable minister.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is Mr. Chamberlain still the director of Law Enforcement?

Mr. Toews: Yes, he is.

Mr. Mackintosh: Perhaps the minister can give me some direction. I had a call from a principal of one of the schools in my constituency looking for some funding to bring in two expert speakers on restitution, particularly restitution in the school setting. I wonder if the minister could give direction as to where that application could be directed, whether it should be to Mr. Chamberlain, under the Crime Prevention grants or to the Justice Initiatives Fund?

Mr. Toews: I would indicate that my Assistant Deputy Attorney General Mr. Fineblit is responsible for both those funds, and that the application or the request could be placed to Mr. Fineblit, and he will determine which is the appropriate fund to draw from if indeed that is an appropriate expenditure. So I would encourage the member to send that on Mr. Fineblit.

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Mr. Mackintosh: Is there any funding available here or elsewhere in the department for community patrols, that is, citizen patrols to assist the police as their eyes and ears in the community?

Mr. Toews: As I understand it, this is where it is traditionally funded out of this particular grant or this particular appropriation. I would not want to say, specifically, that the Justice Initiative may not be an appropriate fund as well. Given that this is a smaller one and is usually designed to deal with small grants for community activities that relate to crime prevention, crime awareness, but if it is a small grant, this well may be the appropriate place to go in respect of the Citizens on Patrol Initiative.

I understand that in past years there was an $8,000 grant which was given for community-involved crime prevention programs and been used to give grants in a number of communities, including rural communities.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is the government currently funding, or would it be prepared to fund requests from community patrols?

Mr. Toews: Yes, we would certainly be prepared to consider any application in that respect. Each application would be weighed according to criteria similar to those that I outlined in the House here the other day that were prepared by staff in the Attorney General's department. Again, I would not want to say that if that program is a Justice Initiative/Crime Prevention, and even if it did not fit the criteria exactly, there might be leeway given to ensure that a beneficial program is in fact considered.

I think that is both the danger in some of these allocations, but it is also the benefit, so that the individual department has a measure of discretion in ensuring that the appropriate needs of the community are addressed.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is the department undergoing any review of the legislation affecting the training or standards required of security guards?

Mr. Toews: I am pleased the member raised this question. In my other life as a Crown attorney I was also counsel to the Registrar of Private Investigators and Security Guards. It certainly presented some challenges back then, and I do not know exactly what the state of the legislation is in now.

I remember there was a particular concern in respect of security guards. There was a particular situation where someone had been charged with 20 or 30 counts of fraud and theft and wanted a licence as a security guard. The act, though, did not seem to prevent the licensing of that type of individual. The Registrar, I recall in that particular time, was very concerned that he would authorize this person to be a security guard and, in fact, denied the licence to the individual.

I remember the matter went on to the appeal court, the county court at the time, and the county court judge thought it was an infringement of the person's rights not to have that licence, despite the fact that he was pending on 20 or 30 counts of fraud or theft and, in fact, granted the licence, and so it was the court granting the licence in that particular case. Now as it turned out, no one would hire this particular guard, and I think eventually he was convicted of some of the charges and so it became a moot issue. But what particularly concerned me was the basis upon which a security guard could be denied a licence, and one of the matters was that he either had to be convicted of a criminal offence or it would be contrary to public interest to grant the licence. Certainly, the position of the Registrar, as I recall, was that it would be contrary to the public interest in order to grant that licence.

I know that the department is looking at this issue, not that specific issue, it is just an issue that popped into my mind as the member was speaking, and perhaps it is something that I would ask my department to look at to ensure that appropriate standards are being applied. The department is in fact conducting a review on standards of private investigators and security guards and also training to ensure that appropriate people are being hired and, in fact, are performing the jobs, those particular functions.

So I understand that the report is still in progress, that it has not been completed yet, but I anticipate that as soon as that is completed and the appropriate background information, recommendations are made, that we can share the details of that study with the member.

Mr. Mackintosh: What comprises the study right now? Who is doing it and what is the ambit of the review?

Mr. Toews: Mr. Chair, the audit is being conducted by-in fact, a study is being conducted by internal staff in the Law Enforcement Review Agency. As I understand it, they are auditing all firms that provide this type of service to the public. Mr. Chamberlain, who is the director of the branch, is involved in a national committee so that we can move towards standardization of both legal requirements and training.

I would note that the department from time to time receives inquiries from private individuals who are anxious to provide that training service to private investigators, and we have to ensure that these requests are bona fide in the sense that we want to make sure that before we set standards and before we designate a certain individual or a certain company as an appropriate company to provide that training, we want to make sure that it is necessary. I think the department is doing the background work in concert with this national committee, and I think we will then be able to share further details, not only with the member for St. Johns, but any other member of the public who may be interested in providing that service or, indeed, interested in forming a company that would deliver those kinds of services or, indeed, somebody receiving those types of services in his or her business.

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Mr. Mackintosh: With Mr. McIvor here, I wonder now if the minister can advise, what are the objectives of the new position of director of Aboriginal Policing?

Mr. Toews: Mr. Chair, this particular position referred to by the member involves the management of the existing policing agreement with the Dakota Ojibway Tribal Council police, which services approximately eight communities, and so those are existing agreements that are administered by the director. The actual process of negotiating is a tripartite process. It is provincial, federal and First Nations community. The function of the director is to co-ordinate these negotiations. He participates in analyzing the costs involved. There are a number of communities who are or who have expressed interest in these programs and there are approximately 63 communities-or 60 communities. The director also looks at issues such as the creation of the police commission, if necessary, to govern this or whether the existing police commissions would deal with this.

I had a very interesting conversation the other night with members of the RCMP who were talking to me about the negotiations that they themselves were doing with First Nations communities in terms of determining what would be the appropriate policing model for various communities. As the member may know, in Saskatchewan, I think, almost without exception, the model that has been chosen there in respect to First Nations communities is the police officers are actually regular members of the RCMP or are within the RCMP rather than stand-alone policing units. They have met with a considerable amount of success in that respect.

In Manitoba, we have a bit of a mixed situation with many RCMP officers who may be aboriginal. Again, the exact numbers, I do not know, but I know that the RCMP is very anxious to recruit as many capable First Nations people within their ranks. Having said that, there is the issue of stand-alone police forces for these First Nation communities. Issues of training, of course, arise, and standards, and the director has input or interest in the stage of the negotiations, the type of negotiations, the cost implications and the governance of some of these police organizations.

I would just indicate for the record that Mr. Jack Gashyna has joined us at the table.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister now advise whether there was a competition for filling the position?

Mr. Toews: Mr. Chairperson, this, of course, is the same Jack Gashyna that I spoke so highly of earlier this afternoon, and I do not want to go into the details. Jack Gashyna I know can read Hansard himself if he wants to know what I think about his capabilities, and, indeed, he might have heard some of what I was saying about him.

But just in terms of the history of why he is where he is today in a purely governmental sense, what happened at first was there was an RCMP officer seconded from the RCMP that essentially fulfilled this role. That secondment ended after a period of two years, and that individual then returned to the RCMP. Mr. Gashyna had been seconded to Public Prosecutions from Mr. Pat Sinnott's shop at the Public Prosecutions. He was putting his many skills to use specifically in respect of case management. It was an administrative reorganization that he was looking at in that sense of the case management, and, again, his skills were very, very well put to use there.

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Now, the First Nations groups were very interested in proceeding with negotiations and advancing their particular position. We in the department had no staff year which we could utilize, so Mr. Gashyna was essentially put into that position recognizing his skills, and he was not appointed as a director at that time. Indeed, there was really no vacancy. The staff year did not occur until the transfer that I talked about on the Adjusted Vote transfer which occurred in respect of the position from Community Corrections.

Mr. Gashyna has this staff year now and was appointed the director of aboriginal policing by the assistant deputy attorney general. It did not involve a competition. Simply, Mr. Gashyna was placed in that position in order to fulfill a need, and it was recognized that he, in fact, had the appropriate skills, and he was already within the department so we were able to utilize these existing staff years.

The position did not involve any increase in Mr. Gashyna's salary, although it may well have resulted in some increase in his responsibilities.

Mr. Mackintosh: What is the name of the RCMP who was seconded to fill the liaison role in aboriginal policing?

Mr. Toews: Sergeant Paul Currie.

Mr. Chairperson: Shall the item pass? The item is accordingly passed.

4.2. Criminal Justice (d) Law Enforcement Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $634,600-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $198,700-pass; (3) Grants $60,000-pass.

4.2.(e) Victims Assistance (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $511,400.

Mr. Mackintosh: I have a question about Victims Assistance. I understand that there is a cap of $2,000 on any counselling. Is that under the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board?

Mr. Toews: The answer is yes.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister advise whether there are other caps, either in place or contemplated, regarding assistance under the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board scheme?

Mr. Toews: I would indicate, as stated by the member for St. Johns, that the Criminal Injuries Compensation has been capped at a maximum of $2,000 per claim. I would point out that most jurisdictions have limits on counselling. For example, Saskatchewan, has a thousand dollar limit, so in that sense we are still double what Saskatchewan has. One of the things though that was done by the department is a study that was conducted by Prairie Research Associates on victim services in Manitoba. I would indicate that study has been completed and has been received and is presently being reviewed by the Justice department officials.

One of the things that was noted in that study, and I am paraphrasing here, that the compensation system, the Criminal Injuries Compensation system, is indeed a very generous one compared to other jurisdictions. Prairie Research Associates made certain recommendations. One of those recommendations, as I recall, related to the issue of providing wage replacement to people who are not receiving wages, and that is the subject of a bill presently before the House.

In respect of the other recommendations, it was felt that the department should look at all those recommendations and approach any changes in a broader way to ensure that there will, in the result, be an enhanced victim services program for Manitobans. One of the instructions that I have given to staff is to take a look at The Criminal Injuries Compensation Act and possibly consider the drafting of new legislation. Now, this recommendation requires planning and policy considerations that will take time to develop.

One of the reasons we did not want to proceed at this time in respect of those recommendations is that we are awaiting the Lavoie Inquiry which is expected to make recommendations regarding victim programming, which we believe should be addressed in tandem with the results of the study.

Certain recommendations have already been addressed, such as the creating of a branch where the victim services reports to an assistant deputy minister. This has been done through the Public Safety Branch. Consulting with the police-based services at the community level to determine the best method of delivery of victims services has also taken place. So in terms of any fixed, contemplated caps, those are the only ones that I am aware of and that the department is actively contemplating at this time.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is that study available publicly either through Queen's Printer or the library?

Mr. Toews: Before I make any commitments in terms of releasing that particular report, I do want to have further discussions with my officials. It was my understanding that we wanted to wait until the Lavoie report came out and release this perhaps in concert with that or following that, depending on what the Lavoie report indicates. We think that is the appropriate way to proceed but, certainly, it is the intention of the department to release that study in the near future. We have had this discussion in respect of the Lavoie report. I do not know whether it was in Estimates or in Question Period, but certainly we are awaiting the release of that report and we anticipate that coming forward relatively quickly.

* (1710)

Mr. Mackintosh: Could the minister tell us what happened to a report or review that I understand was being conducted of the Victim Assistance Programs that exist through the RCMP in Manitoba?

Mr. Toews: This report deals with that particular issue. In fact, what we have done in the interim, because we have had some fairly positive reports from the community about this Victims Assistance plan, members of communities who are presently involved in that Victim Assistance Program have, in fact, approached the government to ensure that funding continues for the next year. It has been my understanding that that funding has continued for the next year and that, in the meantime, we want a study to see how we can best serve the community in respect of Victims Assistance.

I know that the director of Public Safety, Mr. Sangster, is being asked to visit these various communities to consult with each and every one of the committees who deal with victims assistance to provide further background information. The initial indications are that the study is a very productive, positive one and that we should look at ways of expanding that system throughout the province.

Mr. Mackintosh: I had some questions on the Urban Sports Camp initiative. What is the appropriation that we should raise it under?

Mr. Toews: I am advised that that comes under the Winnipeg Development Agreement, and so it could also be in Urban Affairs rather than this particular branch. I know I am working very closely with that department to move that project along.

Mr. Sangster is involved in that particular project heading up a committee of people who are charged with the implementation. That is moving along very, very well, and we hope to hear some positive announcements very shortly. But my understanding, and if I am wrong in this respect, staff will advise you of the correct appropriation. It falls under the WDA funding. As I understand it, the Urban Sports Camp is a component of what they call the urban safety program of the Winnipeg Development Agreement. As the member knows or may know, the aim of this camp is to provide alternative leisure time activity for inner city youth with the long-term objective of preventing youth crime and violence, and that also partnership with community groups are key elements to ensuring ownership and sustainability upon completion of the agreement.

I could have a long discussion about that. I do not know whether the member particularly wants to hear about it at this time, but I anticipate an announcement being made very shortly in respect to the Urban Sports Camp.

Mr. Mackintosh: The minister will have received a letter April 25 from the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Reimer) who advises that the contact for the project is Mr. Sangster, so I am just wondering where we can pursue that within the Department of Justice Estimates rather than in Urban Affairs.

Mr. Toews: Well, in fact, this is the spot to ask any questions that he may want. There is no appropriation in the Department of Justice. As the member knows, WDA is tripartite funding. It comes under, as I understand it, Urban Affairs and municipal funds as well as federal funds. We have provided certain staff because we feel that this is the appropriate place to co-ordinate that type of activity from, and that is why we, in the Department of Justice, are involved in this.

I think that point needs to be dwelt on. Sometimes the structure of government lends itself to the very fractured delivery of programs. I think, as we become more sophisticated in the delivery of programs, we recognize more and more that we should not be necessarily tied to a particular department or particular program when the issue is a cross-departmental one. One of the best examples of that type of cross-departmental activity is the Child and Youth Secretariat where people from every department are involved in the delivery of particular programs. I would not put this into the same category as a Child and Youth Secretariat, but this in fact is a recognition that certain issues related to funding or program delivery or geographical locations may impact upon different issues and different departmental individuals. So what I think government is coming to realize is that it is the delivery of the service that is important rather than particularly where the funding is and who the people are delivering the program.

I think, in terms of accountability, it should always be clear where does the money come from, because the member for St. Johns has an obligation to the community to determine and seek disclosure of those types of statistics so that the taxpayer knows where the money is and where it is coming from and how it is to be spent. But I do not think that there is a concern simply because a person in a particular branch is, in effect, responsible for the administration of a program funded by money coming through a different department or a different appropriation.

Mr. Mackintosh: When is it expected that this initiative will be up and running?

Mr. Toews: We anticipate that this will be implemented during the course of this summer. I might point out that already two projects involving the Winnipeg Native Alliance and the International Centre have been funded as study sites that have been assessed by the steering committee during the developmental phase. These centres have proven that by using community-based organizations and existing resources, a recreation concept can be introduced and flourish in areas that are deemed high risk for youth. So the broad-based committee that is involved in developing the Urban Sports Camp as a whole is in fact moving towards implementation this summer.

* (1720)

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, just finally on this, can the minister advise who comprises the committee?

Mr. Toews: I do not have the list here. All I recall is that one member, Mr. Trevor Kennerd, is on that particular committee and Dr. Henry Janzen is on that committee and also a corporate partner in this is the Winnipeg Rotary Club. I do not know who the representative from the Winnipeg Rotary Club is, but I will get that information to the member.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 4.2.(e)(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $511,400-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $973,200-pass; (3) Grants-pass.

4.2.(f) Criminal Injuries Compensation Board (1) Other Expenditures $1,645,400.

Mr. Mackintosh: I have one question under this item. Under what I assume is the proposed legislation, I believe there has been notice or first reading given of an act to amend The Criminal Injuries Compensation Act. If I were fired from my job today and knifed in the back tomorrow, is it right that under the proposed legislation I would not receive any compensation for wage loss?

(Mr. Ed Helwer, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Mr. Toews: While you may not be eligible for wage loss replacement if you are not earning any wages, you still may be entitled to other benefits under the act. I think that is one of the points that the Prairie Research study identified, stating that it would not appear to be appropriate to receive from the government Treasury a sum of money that is designed to compensate you for a loss that in fact you did not suffer.

Mr. Mackintosh: If in fact I had been employed off and on over a long period of time and showed that there was a consistent pattern of re-employment and yet I suffered criminal injuries during the time of unemployment, would I be denied wage replacement under the proposed legislation?

Mr. Toews: I am not prepared to give a legal opinion, but this is no doubt something that should be debated when this bill is before the House. I would assume this is something on which the appropriate judicial body would make that determination.

Mr. Mackintosh: One question just before we leave this division. I wonder if the minister is aware of when the Holiday Haven inquest is set to begin.

Mr. Toews: I am not aware that any date has been set yet. I understand that has just recently been called by the Chief Medical Examiner, and in due course that will be announced publicly.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister advise if a prosecutor has been assigned to that inquest now, and if so, who?

Mr. Toews: I am not aware of any prosecutor being appointed to that at this time.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): 4.2 Criminal Justice (f) Criminal Injuries Compensation Board (1) Other Expenditures $1,645,400-pass; (2) Less: Reduction in Actuarial Liability ($100,000), for a subtotal of $1,545,400-pass.

Resolution 4.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $66,275,200 for Justice, Criminal Justice, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1998.

Shall the item pass?

Mr. Mackintosh: Could the minister provide an explanation as to why on Schedule 5 on page 11 of the detailed Estimates book the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board shows up as zero expenditures for last year and this year? I am sure there is a simple explanation for that.

Mr. Toews: Yes, that page is a staff year summary, and there are no staff years directly associated with that. As you may be aware, the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board is, in fact, handled by the Workers Compensation Board.

If I could just continue with that answer, we are also just joined here by Dianna Scarth, the executive director of the Human Rights Commission.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): Shall the resolution pass? The resolution is accordingly passed. I will give the Chair back to the Chairperson.

* (1730)

(Mr. Chairperson in the Chair)

Mr. Chairperson: We will now move on to 4.3. Civil Justice (a) Executive Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $132,800-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $19,300-pass.

4.3. (b) Manitoba Human Rights Commission (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $999,900.

Mr. Mackintosh: Very briefly, I think the debate surrounding the Human Rights Commission will take place on the bill, because the bill raises funding issues as well as changes to the number of commissioners, of course.

I just wanted to welcome Dianna Scarth to her new position. I have a long association with the Human Rights Commission. That is where I cut my teeth as a human rights development counsellor which was in the name of intake officer at the time and then later human rights officer, and I have always followed with interest antidiscrimination initiatives. In fact, I did my thesis on the development of antidiscrimination law at the federal level. I recommend it to members.

I just have one brief question here. I certainly remember a CASHRA meeting, and I attended a meeting of human rights officers in the United States in the late '70s, early '80s, and at that time we were talking about fast-tracking complaints by way of either a mediation or a conciliation-type process, and I know the Human Rights Commission a number of years ago in Manitoba took on that challenge of more timely disposition of complaints by instead of going through an independent investigation stage but going very quickly to what I understood was a face-to-face resolution or at least a resolution that was not initiated by an investigation by a human rights officer.

I am wondering if, briefly, there could be a description of how that fast-tracking resolution of complaints is being dealt with at the Human Rights Commission today?

Mr. Toews: I would like to have an opportunity to discuss exactly that issue. I think the member raises a very, very good point. Indeed, perhaps, the excellent reputation of our Human Rights Commission has something to do with the initial work that the member did in that commission, I do not know, but one of the things that I learned in the private sector when I was there for a short period of time after leaving government was the very high regard that is out there for the Manitoba Human Rights Commission. The Manitoba Human Rights Commission is viewed as a very moderate and realistic, common-sense kind of commission, really trying to solve people's practical problems and very interested in moving matters along.

I would take that in very sharp contrast to the Ontario Human Rights Commission, through my experience in the early 1990s, where there was tremendous backlog. I am aware of one particular case where it went on for four years without coming to anywhere near a resolution. So I know that the Ontario Human Rights Commission was hopelessly bogged down in '92-93. I do not know whether some of that has improved with the change of government, but one of the things that has in fact, this commission here in Manitoba, in addition to its fine reputation with providing good, common-sense direction and advice, was that it had broadened the range of options available for dealing with complaints through the introduction of mediation and conciliation programs resulting in the speedier resolution of complaints. Currently there is no backlog of complaints waiting to be assigned to investigators.

Under a pilot project, a commission is now fast tracking 20 percent of potential complaints as well as having introduced a new face-to-face mediation program prior to investigation. I think the Human Rights Commission is no different from any other instrument of justice, and that is, a speedy resolution of a complaint is crucial to the administration of justice. I believe that the Human Rights Commission has been pursuing that very diligently and very effectively.

Mr. Mackintosh: I guess I really should ask this question here, and I am certainly aware of some horrendous delays that complainants have suffered at the Human Rights Commission, and I think unfortunately the commission did develop somewhat of a reputation over the years as a black hole for some types of complaints. There is a complaint that comes to mind. Actually it was a number of complaints alleging systemic discrimination on the basis of sex lodged by some women from post-secondary educational institutions in Manitoba. It is a very old complaint, and I am just wondering if the committee could be advised of the status of that complaint or series of complaints.

Mr. Toews: The executive director has certain concerns, and I share those concerns as well, about getting into the details of any complaint which may or may not be ongoing or may or may not be investigated at this time. I know I can say that the commission has received a study that has been done which may be relevant to the issue that the member is raising but, beyond that, I do not want to get into any further details.

Mr. Mackintosh: Recognizing that there is some confidentiality aspects though, can the committee at least be told whether this matter is still under investigation or whether it has proceeded to conciliation?

Mr. Toews: Insofar that it is public knowledge that a complaint was made, I can indicate that the matter is still under active consideration.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister just say whether that is at the investigation stage or has it gone beyond that?

Mr. Toews: I would suggest that it is beyond that, given the fact that-perhaps to be cautious, I should say it is not yet in adjudication. I am not suggesting that it is going to go to adjudication, but is not yet in adjudication. I think the parties are best left to deal with that issue, and the issue is not one that should be discussed at this time.

* (1740)

Mr. Chairperson: Shall the item pass? Pass. Item 4.3. Civil Justice (b) Manitoba Human Rights Commission (2) Other Expenditures $344,700-pass.

4.3.(c) Legislative Counsel (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,241,900-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $343,900-pass.

4.3.(d) Manitoba Law Reform Commission (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $75,000.

Mr. Mackintosh: Just to advise the committee that I think we will have full debate about the Law Reform Commission when we discuss the bill in the House.

Mr. Chairperson: Shall the item pass? Pass. Item 4.3.(d)(2) Other Expenditures $30,600-pass.

4.3.(e) Family Law (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $574,800.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is the minister prepared to reinstate the designated officer position for Maintenance Enforcement at the Dauphin Court House?

Mr. Toews: I would indicate that is under 4.5.(c) Regional Courts, that particular issue.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister tell the committee whether he is aware of any backlogs in warrants for the Maintenance Enforcement Program, the city of Winnipeg?

Mr. Toews: The Maintenance Enforcement issue is under 4.5.(a) Courts, and I would need the court staff here rather than the Director for Family Law, Joan MacPhail, Q.C.

Mr. Chairperson: Shall the item pass? Pass. Item 4.3.Civil Justice (e) Family Law (2) Other Expenditures $106,600-pass.

4.3.(f) Constitutional Law (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $585,400-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $112,900-pass.

4.3.(g) Legal Aid Manitoba (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $5,932,000-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $6,504,600-pass.

4.3.(h) Civil Legal Services nil-pass.

4.3.(j) Public Trustee nil-pass.

Resolution 4.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $17,004,400 for Justice, Civil Justice, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1998.

We will now move on to resolution 4.4 Corrections (a) Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $549,500-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $288,300-pass.

4.4 (b) Adult Corrections (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $28,516,500.

Mr. Mackintosh: I am wondering if the minister has staff that he is going to bring in for this one.

Mr. Toews: Yes, this is the Corrections staff here: Mr. Greg Graceffo, the assistant deputy minister of Corrections; and Mr. Jim Wolfe, executive director, Adult Corrections.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, do we not remember last year around this time, this was a real doozie under this appropriation.

Mr. Chairperson: This one took 20 hours on its own.

Mr. Mackintosh: I have a few very specific questions. First of all, I would just like to understand how work hours translate into remission or pay for inmates of the Adult Corrections. Can the minister tell the committee if an inmate does work hours in the institution or outside of the institution, is there any effect on the time that one spends in the facility? Is there any direct effect?

Mr. Toews: I am advised that the legal release date is affected by a number of factors. They could include community work but not necessarily so. For example, I am thinking of a hypothetical situation where there has been a disturbance at a particular facility and prisoners would be in lock-down. Now, if those prisoners who behaved themselves and co-operated in that limited way that they could co-operate, certainly the officials take that into account, that there were factors beyond this particular inmate's ability to control, and so that would not necessarily work against the inmate simply because he has not had the opportunity to go out into the community.

Mr. Mackintosh: Are inmates paid for work that they do in the institution or outside of the institution?

* (1750)

Mr. Toews: I am advised that they, in fact, are paid. Their pay ranges from $1.90 a day to $3.70 a day depending upon the experience and the jobs that are assigned to them.

Mr. Mackintosh: Although we are not under that appropriation now, I wonder if the minister can advise what inmates in the youth facilities are paid, if at all.

Mr. Toews: They are not.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister tell us what the status of restarting the programs for inmates at Headingley currently is? Are the programs 100 percent on stream again, or are they still in abeyance?

Mr. Toews: I know that the member simply wants a general outline of what has been going on, and I am prepared to do that in as quick a period of time as possible, and he may want to ask questions tomorrow in more detail. But this will give him an indication of some of the things that have in fact been going on.

We are in the process of reintroducing many of the programs that were suspended as a result of the disturbance last year at Headingley, the domestic violence course in terms of the short-term domestic violence course, if I am correct in that respect; also, the substance abuse program is being reintroduced or is reintroduced. The chaplaincy program is as well reintroduced into the various units. I noted when I toured Headingley on two occasions now, the first time there seemed to be a restriction on the recreational activities much more so than the last time that I went. I noticed a substantive difference, although all the recreational activities, I am advised, are still occurring indoors.

The school program will be reintroduced shortly, and so many of these programs are in fact in the process of being introduced or have in fact been reintroduced. The sex offenders program which was closed down in Headingley was in fact continued on at Dauphin, and once the renovations have been made to Annex B at Headingley, the sex offenders from Dauphin will be moved down to Annex B and the programs that they are currently receiving there will be continued at Annex B.

One of the other very important things when we are talking about inmate activities is, in some respect, the flood had some impact on the jail and the ability of the jail to introduce and reintroduce programs, but that was, I think, spent very profitably by many of the inmates. The public may not realize that between 100 and 150 inmates and youth residents were deployed daily including work gangs on weekends, and they were supplemented by weekend sentenced prisoners. I know that when I went to Milner Ridge, for example, there were people working on sandbag units who then when they were not serving time on the weekend-they were free to leave the facility on the weekend-were in fact volunteering to sandbag, and I believe the member for St. Norbert is familiar with that.

So we had prisoners, in fact, very active in that particular activity, and from all reports these offenders worked side by side with ordinary civilians and, indeed, most of the civilians, if any of them, did not know that these people were offenders. Those high-risk offenders from Headingley Correctional Institution who posed too high a risk for off-site deployment were assigned to around-the-clock sandbagging onsite utilizing a sandbagging machine provided by a private vendor. So the inmates really have to be commended for the very positive contribution that they made to our community, and hopefully it is a lesson learned, that they do have something to offer to the community and that we are thankful even to inmates for the very positive contribution that they made.

Mr. Mackintosh: I wanted to ask some questions on the follow-up to the Hughes inquiry recommendations. I am wondering if the minister has an advance compiled status sheet at all or if we should go through those point by point.

Mr. Toews: I can again summarize some of the update in respect of the Hughes report, and just in terms of background information, very quickly-I appreciate that we are running short of time-the Hughes report, in fact, outlines a number of areas that require the attention of the Corrections Division, so the Corrections Division, in fact, looked at the various recommendations and then addressed those.

Firstly, Mr. Hughes's point about the return to an acceptable workplace environment, as a result of Mr. Hughes's report, the Headingley labour relations committee has been in operation since January 27, 1997, and has been organized as outlined by Mr. Hughes. The committee has addressed as its first order of business the revitalization of unit and case management at the correctional institution. The institution has developed a new approach for unit management that has as its primary focus the elimination of certain administrative processes or ways of handling staff.

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The hour being six o'clock, committee rise.

Call in the Speaker.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Marcel Laurendeau): The hour being 6 p.m., this House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until 1:30 tomorrow (Wednesday).