Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): The committee will now deal with the Estimates for Sport.
Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): In view of the fact that I do not see the minister or the critic, another brief recess might be in order at this point, we hope very brief.
Mr. Chairperson: Agreed? [agreed]
The committee recessed at 4:42 p.m.
The committee resumed at 4:52 p.m.
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order.
This section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Sport. Does the honourable Minister of Sport have an opening statement?
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister responsible for Sport): Mr. Chairman, I have a brief opening statement. It is my pleasure to place before the committee the '97-98 budget Estimates for Sport.
Amateur sport makes a significant contribution to the physical, social and economic well-being of our province. We take pride in our many achievements and our record points to ongoing progress based on some of the following: the number of national team and carded athletes who are resident of Manitoba and train here on a regular basis; the number of Manitobans to participate with medal success at the most recent Atlanta Summer Olympics, the most ever; the establishment of the National Training Centre Manitoba which will serve to meet the specific needs of these athletes and the hundreds of others who are on the threshold of becoming our country's high-performance athletes; and the awarding to our province of both the national men's and women's volleyball teams training centre. We also have a tremendous legacy of hosting numerous successful championships, two World Curling Championships, two World Youth Baseball Championships, the World Boardsailing Championships, and the list goes on and on.
This has paved the way for other major hosting initiatives over the next three years. It begins with the 1997 Canada Summer Games in Brandon this August; the 1997 World Handball Championship in Winnipeg in August; the 1998 Olympic Curling Trials in Brandon in November; our own 1998 Manitoba Winter Games in Gimli next March; the 1998 Canadian Men's Curling Championship, the Brier, in Winnipeg next March; the 1999 World Junior Hockey Championship in Winnipeg, Brandon, Portage and Selkirk--all leading up to the 1999 Pan American Games in Winnipeg.
With these and other challenges facing us, Sport Manitoba, after a year of transition following the merger of the former Manitoba Sport Directorate and the Manitoba Sports Federation, has started to set the stage for comprehensive planning and a stronger integrated delivery of sport throughout the province. Mandated to implement the province's sport policy, Sport Manitoba's goals are the following: to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of resources to best meet the needs of athletes, coaches and officials; to provide funding which effectively balances the needs of sport and the costs of delivering programs and services; to support services which are in line with the priorities of sport partners; to develop a financial plan which creates overall economies in saving for the operation of sport.
Sport Manitoba will achieve these goals through an annual business plan derived from the sport policy and a funding agreement that will see the organization continue to support the Manitoba Games, Team Manitoba's participation in interprovincial games, best-ever athlete support for Manitoba's best athletes, coaches and officials development, and support of major hosting initiatives.
Our successes are built on a solid foundation of partnerships and volunteerism that involve the dedication and commitment of thousands of individuals, citizens and corporate sponsors who continue to make a significant and major contribution to sport development in our province. The new opportunities that exist will enable us to increase our focus on the development of our athletes, coaches and officials through initiative, leadership and a highly supportive environment. This administration through Sport Manitoba is setting the course to address the ongoing challenges faced by amateur sport and to maximize the opportunities to ensure the further growth and success of amateur sport in Manitoba. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honourable minister for those comments. Does the critic for the official opposition, the honourable member for Radisson, have opening comments?
Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Yes, I would just like to make a few comments and highlight, I guess, some of the areas that I want to focus on in these Estimates. We only have a few hours, but there is a lot going on in sport right now, especially after today with the major announcement of the television contract for the Pan Am Games, and I will spend quite a bit of time, I think, discussing plans for the Pan Am Games. Hopefully, we will get around talking a little bit, too, about the Canada Games which are on this summer. I want to follow up on some of the issues, unfortunately, that have surfaced in sport in our province and across the country related to abuse of athletes and participants in sport. I want to talk, as well, about the High Performance Centres, centres of excellence that have been developed for Manitoba, national centres that I understand are tied to the Pan Am Games as well.
I will have some questions about the changes in some of the Lotteries policy and how that is affecting the Sport Manitoba agencies and ability for those organizations to continue to work effectively. As the minister has also mentioned in his opening statement, the number of changes that are now implemented through the new Sport Manitoba body, and I am interested in following up on their plans, their financial plans and agreements that they have been working on with the provincial government, and I think that will probably take up the majority of the time that we will have.
There are other areas I am interested in, in terms of high school athletics and the carding system for athletes and any development there and just generally looking at ensuring that the province is complying with some of the sport policy that was developed. I think there are some areas where there are some problems developing in the different sports, particularly in terms of some of the development activities. Maybe I will ask a few questions about that to start off with. I guess the minister can have his staff join us and I think that is where I am going to start.
Mr. Chairperson: Since there is no ministerial salary for Sport, we would invite the minister's staff to please come forward and the minister to introduce the staff present.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, seated to my immediate left is Mr. Jim Berry, the director of Community Support Programs in Sport, and also joining us is Mr. Jeff Hnatiuk, the president and CEO of Sport Manitoba.
Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honourable minister. We will now proceed directly to the consideration of line items on page 122 of the Estimates book. 28.1.(a) Sport Manitoba $10,065,000. Shall the item pass?
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Ms. Cerilli: As I was saying in my opening comments, I wanted to ask a few questions about some areas that have arisen lately that are of great concern, and it has to do with high school athletics and sport development programs as related to young athletes coming out from high schools. This was raised in Question Period with the Minister of Education, and I am wondering if the Minister for Sport and Sport Manitoba have had any discussions about this problem and that is that certain school divisions or perhaps just one school division, the Assiniboine area, are now charging teams who go out of town for tournaments or meets and then require the coach teacher that is joining them to miss days of classes at the school are having to raise funds and pay for the costs of hiring a substitute teacher to replace the teacher coach that is with the athletes going out of town or missing classes because they are supervising the students and coaching during class time.
I am sure the minister would agree--he can tell me if he does or if he does not--that this will have implications in a number of ways. It will have implications for the number of tournaments or meets that student athletes will participate in during class time because there will be a cost. It will limit lower-income athletes from being able to participate on an equal playing field if they are expected to pay certain fees, and I think that it would also have implications then in the long run for the development of amateur athletes at that level and in a variety of sports that rely on high school for their development programs.
So I am wondering if the minister would agree if this is an area of concern, if he is aware of this, and tell me if there has been any discussion of this matter, at Sport Manitoba, if there has been any concerns that have been brought to his attention and if now that I am raising it, if maybe this is something new that Sport Manitoba needs to take a look at, if it is a concern that high school teams would have to be raising funds to pay for substitute teachers because they are missing class time to compete in athletics, and if the minister agrees that this is a concern.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I am told that this issue has not been brought to our attention. When I say our attention, Sport Manitoba or through Mr. Berry and my offices, has not been brought to our attention or raised as a concern by school divisions or by the Manitoba High School Athletic Association at this particular point in time. We do have a liaison person, consultant with education, and we will certainly look into the issue.
Ms. Cerilli: I believe this is a fairly new practice on the part of the school division that is involved. Has the minister had any discussions with the Minister of Education (Mrs. McIntosh) about this matter especially since it was raised in the House? Had he thought of the implications for the area of sport?
Mr. Stefanson: No, I have not had any discussions with the Minister of Education, but as I have indicated, the fact that we are discussing this here today we will look into the issue and determine if it does exist, if it exists in what divisions, to what extent and what the implications would be to participation in sport.
Ms. Cerilli: Would the minister think that this practice of having high school sports teams pay for the cost of substitute teachers violates or go against part 7 of Manitoba sport policy which says: There should be appropriate means for encouraging the integration of sport in education and to communicate with all members of the education system the value of sport within education, developing leadership, character and healthy lifestyles--if the minister could tell me if he thinks this policy or this practice of charging for substitute teachers for coaches would be in keeping with that policy.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I do not think I want to comment until I determine whether or not this is, in fact, taking place. If it is, in what divisions, under what terms, and know with absolute certainty what it is we are talking about. So I certainly undertake and assure the member that I will look into it.
I will have our Sport Manitoba officials look into it, and I will correspond with her in terms of what I find out, how much of a problem, if any, this is. Obviously, subject to whatever we find out, I am then prepared to indicate what we are prepared to do. Until I know with some absolute certainty, I do not think it is all that helpful for me to speculate.
Ms. Cerilli: I am not asking you to speculate on if or if not this is occurring. What I am asking you to determine is if that practice would be in keeping with the policy that does exist. I mean, this policy is in the book and I am wanting you to tell me if you think it would be in keeping--there is another part of the policy that says to develop leaders in the sport community by enhancing the quality of sport education within the school system.
So there is a whole section of sport policy in your policy document which, as I understand it, is one of the things that has been driving the whole reorganization and creation of Sport Manitoba. I think there is a lot of concern if this policy is being compromised now by cost-saving measures in the Department of Education or because of cuts from the Department of Education and cost-saving measures on the part of some of the school divisions that are suffering from those cuts.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I think, as the member indicated, that question was asked in the House. I want to determine with absolute certainty what is taking place out there and whether or not this is occurring in the manner that the member for Radisson outlines. I will tell her that we certainly view schools as an important area for sport, as an opportunity to participate in sport. I think we can all agree on the value of sport. Our schools are also useful physical facilities for activities in sport and so on. I mean, the policy that she is reading from is certainly one we support; obviously, it is one we released.
This very specific question, I want to determine with absolute certainty what is taking place, if it is happening, under what terms, under what conditions and so on. As I indicated when she first asked the question, we have received no comment to date, either through my offices or through Sport Manitoba from either individual school divisions, individual teachers, or the Manitoba High School Athletic Association.
So I am certainly prepared to look into the issue and to get back to the member for Radisson as soon as I can.
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Ms. Cerilli: Well, like I said, this perhaps is fairly new, but someone has complained in particular to the member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) who raised the issue in the House. I am willing to go out on a limb and suggest that this is not in keeping with the sport policy, which also goes on to say that one of the objectives is to develop appropriate mechanisms and programs to assist educators involved in sports.
So it is fairly clear that this practice would not be in keeping with stated sport policy of the government, as outlined in Section 7, Education and Sport, so I guess I am willing to listen to the minister. As he said, he is going to get back to me on this one. It seems that whenever we raise some kind of controversial or problematic issue for the government in Estimates, that is the answer that we get.
I know that when I was in the Estimates with the Minister of Housing (Mr. Reimer) and I was debating and discussing the agreement being negotiated with the federal government on social housing, I was informed during the Estimates that I would receive a copy. That, I guess, then, dealt with a lot of the questions I was raising, because once I was told that, it seemed unnecessary for me to ask more questions on the topic. Then about a week or so after the Estimates finished, I finally got a letter from the Minister of Housing and, lo and behold, he was not able to give me a copy of that agreement.
I am just sharing that with the minister to let him know the frustration that I have and members of the opposition have through this Estimates process where, when we do raise issues that are problematic, we get told that we will have information given back to us and it sort of shuts us up, if you would, and then down the road we do not get that information, and we have missed our opportunity to ask questions of the government and hold them accountable for policies through their government which are incongruent and are contradicting each other.
I do not know if he is going to be able to tell me any more based on my explaining to him the situation we are in, in opposition, during these Estimates when we try to raise issues and get answers and are told we will have the minister get back to us and then we end up not really getting much information after the Estimates are finished.
Mr. Stefanson: Well, Mr. Chairman, today I can only speak for myself and if I take issues as notice, I usually do my best to get back to the member. I think the difficulty with this issue is she is citing a question raised by one of her colleagues in Question Period. We have nothing in front of us that outlines a policy of any sort that is in place in any school division. As I have already indicated to her, and I have officials here with me, we have not received any concerns, any complaints, any information. That is not to say what she is suggesting might not be existing out there in some school division in some form, and I think the most prudent thing for us to do is to determine, first of all, if it does exist; if from our perspective it is a problem, if it does exist and, if so, then what steps should be taken.
It is not, in any way, an attempt not to provide her with information. It is merely that the question she is asking, not much information is being provided to us at this stage in terms of any substantiation of this issue. So that is our problem. I think we are suggesting to her that if she can provide me any information, I would welcome that specific, or we will undertake through Sport Manitoba to pursue the issue, and I will get back to her.
Ms. Cerilli: Then I want to ask you a question about the Indigenous Games which are in August of 1997 in British Columbia; they are a national competition. The minister in his opening statement listed a number of competitions here in Manitoba and others that we would be sending delegations from our province. I am wondering if we are sending any athletes to the Indigenous Games?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the short answer is yes. I am told Manitoba athletes will be participating in the Indigenous Games in British Columbia this year.
Ms. Cerilli: That is it? I am wondering if you can tell us how many and what sports. What is the financial contribution on the part of your department or on the part of Sport Manitoba?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, there has been no, I guess, official written request for any financial support, but there has been a phone call to our officials about the possibility of some support. A meeting has just recently taken place, and there is to be more information provided in terms of the exact question that the member is asking, the numbers of athletes participating, the sports they are participating in and so on. So at this particular point in time there is no commitment to any financial contribution, but discussions are taking place with the aboriginal community.
Ms. Cerilli: So in that case again I guess the minister will have to get back to me with details when they are available, and could he also tell me who the lead person is both with Sport Manitoba and in the community in dealing with this issue.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the member is right that I will have to get back to her with particulars, because at this particular point in time a meeting has taken place. There are very limited particulars. Sport Manitoba has assigned a Mr. Tim Fergus to liaise with the group in terms of the first meeting that took place. I understand there is a consultant that is liaising with the aboriginal community called Mary Sanderson, but one meeting has taken place, and the result of that is to provide some additional information and move forward from there.
Ms. Cerilli: How does the process work in this case, because I am not sure if there is any involvement in these games by Sport Manitoba or perhaps even any of the associations under Sport Manitoba? The minister can correct me if I am wrong, but it would seem that this is an entirely independent endeavour by aboriginal groups, indigenous groups. So I am wondering what the process is for their benefiting from any support through the province.
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Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I would say the member for Radisson is basically correct the way she outlined the organization and the games, that there is no official structure in place. We certainly through Sport Manitoba have been encouraging them to work with the individual sport governing bodies for the sports that are affected with any of the games, but we also have been responsive to sitting down with them, as I have already indicated.
A recent meeting has taken place with Sport Manitoba and officials from my office on the whole issue of their participation in these games. Obviously, related to that will be discussions about any financial contribution and so on. I think in the past financial contribution from government has been very limited for this group participating in these games but, obviously, that is part of what will be discussed in terms of the participation in British Columbia.
Ms. Cerilli: Can the minister explain which sport organizations are involved with this or which aboriginal groups are leading this, and what program through his department or government would any funding support come from for this type of activity?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I will have to provide the member with information on the actual sport governing bodies that have been contacted. I know soccer has, as an example, but I would want to find out with certainty which ones have been contacted. I know, as well, some of the regional sport organizations have been contacted.
In terms of potential funding support, where it might come from, if it is determined that some funding should be provided, there are some alternatives. Sport Manitoba could certainly look at their various categories, whether or not they could provide assistance. We have limited ability to provide some assistance through the Community Support Programs. As well, the meeting I referred to earlier did include some other departments, Northern Affairs and I believe Justice and others, so within government, there might well be some other departments that there is some merit to pursue in funding if it is determined that funding should be provided.
Ms. Cerilli: Okay, I may come back to that issue, but I want to move on now and spend probably the remainder of our time today discussing the Pan Am Games. Like I said in my opening statement, big, big announcement today. I was there for most of it, I think, and was encouraged especially after raising this in a recent debate--when were we in the House? April 8, '97, there was a private members' resolution brought forward by the current Chairperson about the Pan Am Games. At that time I raised a lot of concerns and one of them was the fact that at that time there was not a television contract. Today, lo and behold, there is an announcement that there is this unique agreement with CBC and TSN.
I am wondering if the minister could give me some of the details about this including, first of all, to clarify that this is 100 hours and that is 100 hours over the two-week period. Am I understanding it correctly, that that is all live broadcast and that that will expand to include ads and pre-taped bios and backgrounders and vignettes and other sorts of filler? So I am wondering if we can get a sense of the total number of hours and if I am correct in saying that this 100 hours is live hours?
I am wondering if the minister could compare that to, say, coverage that we enjoyed from the Olympic Games most recently in '96, if we could have a dollar value that is attached to that amount of time?
Mr. Stefanson: Recognizing at the end of the day these agreements are entered into with the host society, we do not necessarily have all of the information here with us, nor would I expect that we should. I will certainly at the outset undertake any questions that I take as notice to provide the member with whatever information we can. This contract, as she indicated, is good news for the Pan American Games. I think with the previous television contracts they have entered into with the Caribbean and others that it will have access to the largest viewing audience of any Pan American Games, so obviously that is good news.
I think the financial element of the announcement today that is the most significant is that it now opens the door in a much greater way to pursue private sector contributions. We saw some of them today with IBM, Great-West Life, Investors and Wawanesa. By having the television contracts in place, that really does open the door to pursuing those in a much more aggressive fashion.
She asked for any other financial information relative to the contract. I will get back to her, and I think those were the elements of her question.
Ms. Cerilli: I hope that by that answer the minister is not suggesting that in my quest to ask detailed financial questions about the Pan Am Games he is going to have to take them all as notice, because I find that both frustrating and unacceptable. I have gone through this before in Sport Estimates. Previously when the Sports Federation existed, and perhaps it was the previous Minister for Sport, but there would be a reluctance to answer questions because that was under the jurisdiction of the Sports Federation. Now that will perhaps be the case with Sport Manitoba, even though all the sport directorate people are now over there, so I am not sure what we can ask questions about in these Estimates in terms of sport.
I will let the minister answer my question first. Am I only going to get questions taken as notice related to financial issues around the Pan Am Games?
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Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, there is no reluctance to answer any questions and, if I take questions as notice, as I have indicated to the member, I will do my utmost to provide her with the information subsequent. There is a host society. We are one funding organization for the Pan Am Games, as she knows, along with the federal government and the City of Winnipeg, the private sector and other revenue sources that they will generate. It is not like a line department of government that is under our complete control and jurisdiction when we control all aspects of it. We are a party to an agreement with several other parties. We have some information here today, and if we do not have information, we will take it as notice and we will undertake to provide her with the information.
Ms. Cerilli: I want to remind the minister that this is where you are accountable to the Chamber, the Legislature and to the public for the spending in the Pan Am Games or any other sport-related matter, so I am concerned that you do not have the information here particular to this television contract for the Pan Am Games, especially given that this was the big news today.
I will proceed with asking some of the other questions I have in mind in terms of the Pan Am Games, but I do want you to acknowledge that for Sport in Manitoba, any expenditure, that this is where you are held accountable. This is why we have this process, as far as I understand it, so I am frustrated when questions are simply taken as notice. I do not know if perhaps it would be better or appropriate for tomorrow to bring some of the Pan Am Games staff to the table if that is possible, because I want to be able to have a discussion. I mean, if I was going to get questions taken as notice I would simply send you a letter and we would not go through this process of sitting around the table. I appreciate what the minister is saying in terms of not having the information right now, but that is a problem as far as I can see it in terms of this process. I do have a lot of detailed questions about the Pan Am Games budget.
You know that I asked you for this budget a couple of weeks ago leading up to this Estimates today and was lucky that I went into your office or it would have just been in the mail today and I would not even have had any chance to have a look at it. So let us make this process work and let us make it fair to the opposition and fair to the public who can now read Hansard if I get the information on the record. If I do not, if I simply get the questions taken as notice, there is no public record, and I do not find that acceptable.
Mr. Stefanson: I do not feel that I need any lessons in accountability from the member for Radisson. I am certainly prepared to debate that at length with her. The issue of the budget, she did request a copy of the budget which we have provided to her, but when we are a party to an agreement, when we are one funding source, I could cite all kinds of examples where we do not necessarily provide all of the detail in terms of every organization that receives some portion of their funding from the provincial government, similar with other government bodies.
I have indicated to her that obviously we have certain information around the Pan American Games as a funder, which we should have. But in terms of all of the day-to-day individual decisions and so on, we are not an immediate party to those, nor should we be. If you had to operate the Pan Am Games in that kind of a fashion, we would make absolutely no progress if we are saying that we would have provincial, federal, municipal, all officials having to participate in the running of the games. There is a host society; they are responsible for the implementation of the games. They are responsible to all of their funding partners, as well, so we do get information as this issue moves forward. But, as I have already said, that does not mean that I have all the information on every decision that the Pan Am Games Society is making here with me today, nor should I have that information here today.
Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Chairperson, I just want to say to the minister, given his response, that as the Minister for Sport what I am saying is that you should know what is going on, and you should have the information here for this process where I ask questions about sport-related matters in the province. Even though it is the Pan Am Games Society which is arm's length, it is getting by far the majority of its money through public funds. I would think that both the federal government and the city would also have an interest then in having all of the information, especially about the very basic information about this contract for the television rights to the games. So I think that you should have the information here.
I am going to move on and ask some other questions about some of the other partnerships in terms of the news conference that was held this morning, and hopefully you can answer those questions. But I really find it problematic and maybe perhaps the minister feels because of his position and his tenure in government and all that, he does not have to take lessons from me on accountability, but from my point of view this is where it happens in terms of my role as opposition. If I cannot expect to come here and ask questions and get answers put on the record, there is a serious problem. When there is the amount of money that is being invested into these games from the provincial government and from other governments, there has to be some record and there has to be some answers at these Estimates.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, nobody is suggesting for a minute that there should not be answers to certain types of questions. To date, the member is making a big to-do, whereas we have responded to her questions on Pan Am other than one aspect, a financial element of the contract entered into today with CBC and TSN. We have indicated that we will undertake to provide her additional information, and we will do just that, but I think she has to recognize that every question she asks will not necessarily be answered because some of the questions--she can ask them all she wants, but they are not necessarily the direct responsibilities of government.
We will be accountable, and we will be held accountable for areas that we should be, but where funding is provided to other organizations there is joint accountability and joint responsibility, and I think she has to acknowledge and recognize that. So we will certainly undertake to provide whatever information we can and move forward on that basis.
Ms. Cerilli: Okay, let us try and move forward. I want the minister to confirm then that the total budget in public money, the total revenue in public money, for the Pan Am Games is $64 million and that the province is putting in $23.5 million of this amount; the federal government is putting in approximately $37 million; and $4 million is covered by the city; and that there is a remainder of $58 million to be raised by the Pan Am Games Committee through the private sector, through merchandising and through other ticket sales and fundraising. Is that correct?
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Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, maybe I will just reply what the funding is from the three levels of government. I think there is a slight difference from what the member for Radisson indicated when it came to the municipal contribution.
The federal contribution is $30 million in cash and $7 million in kind and goods and services. The provincial contribution is $23 million in cash and $500,000 in kind and goods and services. The municipal contribution in the city of Winnipeg is $8 million in cash and $2 million in services, in goods and kind. So, if you take those three amounts, not counting the $7 million from the federal government in goods and services, you are at approximately the $64 million. The $7 million is over and above, and is our goods and services being provided, I guess the best way to describe them is, more directly by the federal government.
Ms. Cerilli: So then there is approximately $58 million that has to be raised to round out the budget revenue. Is that correct? I see the minister nodding, so the second part of my question is, can you tell me from the partners that are so far involved, MTS, IBM, Investors Group, Great-West Life, Wawanesa, and perhaps there are others, how close we are getting to that amount of $58 million?
Mr. Stefanson: Just to clarify on my previous answer, the $7 million from the federal government is not included in the budget, as I said. It is for services they will provide direct, I gather, like some of the customs and some of the security and those kinds of things.
The corporate sponsors that the member referred to--MTS, IBM, Investors, Wawanesa, I believe--and for some reason today, the Pan Am Games did not announce individual breakdowns. The member knows. She was there today. I believe those contributions to date are in the $8 million to $10 million range in total.
Just picking up on that, the first major corporate sponsor was MTS. These other ones were announced today, and I think, as we heard today at the press conference, what many have been waiting for is to know with absolute certainty what the television coverage is going to be. There is the link between the television coverage and the private-sector support, and certainly the Pan Am Games host committee is very optimistic and positive now in terms of moving forward now that they have a particular television package that they can talk to sponsors about.
Ms. Cerilli: A television package that the minister does not have any information for me today about. I could not get any information from you, for example, a cost for ads, television ads, that kind of thing. Do you have any of that information with you?
Mr. Stefanson: As the member knows, there were no details provided on any of that today, and I will certainly undertake to obtain information in that area for her.
Ms. Cerilli: I think it would be really good if we could have that for tomorrow when we resume these Estimates. I am wondering if the minister could have more details on that contract for tomorrow.
Mr. Stefanson: We will do our best and determine what we can have available for tomorrow.
Ms. Cerilli: Back to the budget then for the Pan Am Games, I am wondering if it is true that as of December 1996 there was a projected revenue shortfall in the Pam Am Games budget of $40 million.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I cannot confirm that number, but I can confirm that the Pan Am Games Society is doing a complete review of their budget, that there are some areas of some pressure on some of their expenditures in terms of the numbers of athletes, the impact that has on accommodations, on travel arrangements, on food, on everything that goes with hosting the numbers of athletes and the duration of stay that those athletes will be staying in Manitoba. So work is being done on the Pan Am budget, and we would expect an update from them sometime fairly soon.
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Ms. Cerilli: Is it true then that costs are increasing due to an increased number of sports and that you have increased the length of stay of the athletes, that previously athletes were going to stay for only one week and now all the athletes are going to be attending for a full two weeks? Is that correct?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the number of sports has not changed, I am told. It remains consistent at 42 sports, in terms of the Pan American Games, but there are additional requests coming in for, in many cases, more athletes being sent and participating in the games. One of the issues that is now under review by the Pan Am Games Society is just that issue, the numbers of the athletes that are being requested from various countries. Then obviously that has an impact on various aspects of the expenditures.
Ms. Cerilli: So are we going to have a revised budget then? This budget that you have been so kind as to share with me, which has a total of $122,064,000, revenue and expenses, shows a balance. That is not accurate. I am wondering when this budget was approved and when we are going to see a revised budget.
Mr. Stefanson: Well, Mr. Chairman, at this stage, this is the approved budget of the Pan Am Games, but as the games get closer--they are now just over two years away--as the Pan Am Games Society starts to firm up all of their expenditures as their budget committees and finance committees do their final due diligence, some of these numbers are potentially subject to change. At this stage, this is the budget that everybody is working off of, but there might well be some revisions within the next few months.
Ms. Cerilli: So you talked about though there being more athletes, and you talked about there being then more of a requirement for accommodation and food, and I would think that that is logical where there are going to be increases and expenses. Are there other areas besides where there are going to be increases in expenses, and can you explain those to me? Do you have any figures, even preliminarily now, for the increases in costs for the larger number of athletes?
Mr. Stefanson: I should clarify. I think I said it, but just to clarify it again and I am reminded that this whole issue of numbers of athletes at this particular point in time is a request, but that if accepted it does drive a great number of these costs as we have already discussed, from food, to accommodation, to volunteers, to transportation, almost right through the whole system, as we can appreciate.
I guess another area that there has been some pressure on has been some of the areas of technology and so on, but the primary pressure I am told is coming from the area of whether or not these additional numbers of athletes are accepted in terms of the ripple effect through all of the expenditures.
Ms. Cerilli: On this budget there actually is not a lot of detail. I am assuming that it is under the Operation section, which is $33,523,013, that the resources for athletes and coaches and visitors, delegations is under. Is that correct? Is there any more detail for that budget line in terms of accommodation and meals? I am noticing that in the bid book, for lack of a better word for the Pan Am Games, that it says that the University of Manitoba campus will be the village which will house more than 6,500 athletes, coaches, referees and other officials. I am wondering what the actually capacity of that site is, and what the maximum number of athletes and coaches and trainers the games has determined that it can accommodate in Winnipeg.
I guess, just to add to that, knowing that there are venues, sporting venues, throughout different areas of the province, there may be other accommodations besides just the University of Manitoba campus, and if that is the case then the minister could add that information to the answer to my question.
Mr. Stefanson: The member is correct, that Operations would be a line primarily with the direct expenditures related to the issues. We have been discussing accommodations and so on. She is also correct that the University of Manitoba is going to be the main athletes' village. A second site is going to be maintained out at Southport, out at Portage la Prairie.
In terms of any specifics beyond that in terms of additional accommodation, again that is exactly the process that the Pan Am Games committee is going through right now in terms of all of these budget items that we are already discussing in terms of whether or not they ultimately accept the requests for additional athletes and, obviously, what that means to their expenditures and so on. They are going through that process, and we have to wait for them to complete it.
Ms. Cerilli: When I asked the question earlier about the revenue shortfall of $40 million, I think the minister said that he could not confirm that number, but indeed there is a shortfall if we are going to have more athletes. I do not think he told me the number of athletes that they are currently planning for given this budget. Maybe I will let him answer that first before I go on with my question.
Mr. Stefanson: I am told that this budget is prepared on the basis of 5,000 athletes.
Ms. Cerilli: I want you to give me more of a sense then of what the shortfall is in the budget.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I think we are premature, that we have to let the Games society go through that process. They have all these individual committees. They have a finance budget committee. They have a board of directors that, if there are going to be changes, would have to ratify any changes before they bring it back to the three levels of government, so at this particular point in time this is the approved budget. But for the reasons we are discussing, they are currently reviewing their entire budget and have to complete that process.
Ms. Cerilli: Is it true that the Pan Am Games plan for Winnipeg in '99 will have three times the number of sports as the Commonwealth Games did in Victoria?
Mr. Stefanson: I am told in terms of number of sports, it is roughly twice as many. The Commonwealth apparently had 22 compared to the 42 at the Pan Am Games.
Ms. Cerilli: So how does our budget compare in terms of the total cost dollars in the budget and the number of athletes compared to the Commonwealth Games in Victoria?
Mr. Stefanson: I am told that the Commonwealth Games had fewer athletes and cost more to put on, but I will have to get the specific numbers. In comparison, the Pan Am Games had fewer athletes than the '99 Pan Am Games will have, and the cost was greater than the budgeted $122 million for the Pan Am Games.
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The hour being 6 p.m., committee rise.