Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon ten Grade 12 students from Maples Collegiate under the direction of Mr. Gordon Boyko. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for The Maples (Mr Kowalski).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the First Minister. Yesterday in this Chamber the Premier indicated and tabled the copy of a specific proposal to the federal government on flood compensation for the province of Manitoba with a proposed figure of some $270 million.

Today it is quoted by the federal government that they, quote, have not received a proposal from the provincial government, and they have not received specific amounts of money from the provincial government.

I would like to ask the Premier: Did the federal government indeed receive the specific proposal, and why are they saying they did not?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I thank the member opposite for that question, Madam Speaker. Certainly, as one can imagine, the intent that was there when we signed the agreement on the 1st of May, Mr. Axworthy and myself plus other ministers, was that we would immediately have our senior officials continue the negotiation and the fleshing out of all the details in the proposal. I know that there have been numerous people involved. We have paper in our files that has been submitted to us by various senior officials from PFRA, from Western Diversification, including the assistant deputy minister for this region for Western Diversification, and many others on the agriculture side and on the disaster assistance side.

The proposal which I tabled for the House yesterday was sent to the associate secretary of the federal cabinet, the Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council, on the 15th of May--which was Thursday of last week--by fax at his request, and it was a product of discussions that had taken place earlier that day. I assume that was in preparation for the cabinet meeting that took place the following day in Ottawa which I believe was, although I stand to be corrected, attended by Mr. Axworthy. So, quite honestly, I cannot answer why the lead federal minister would have indicated that he had no knowledge of this information.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, on May 21 the federal lead minister stated that he would look to the federal government to reinstate the federal government's water survey staff and the forecasting capacity in Manitoba. Larry Whitney has said that the reduction and cutbacks of these staff will be a major concern to Manitobans. Professor Doering has joined Mr. Whitney in stating that the failure to restore Canada's water survey people could have disastrous consequences for Manitoba. When we look at the failure of the gauges and monitoring in Grand Forks, we see the kinds of consequences that could take place.

Has the provincial government received any change in the plans of the federal government on this issue of federal forecasting, and can the Premier advise Manitobans of the status of that particular concern and issue to all of us in this province?

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Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I certainly share the concern that the Leader of the Opposition is expressing, and that concern, of course, has been expressed by Mr. Whitney of our Natural Resources department. I can indicate that, as part of the discussion, I believe it was in a document that I saw, under PFRA's letterhead, that they had put in as part of the additional costs that they were proposing to incur for this overall Canada-Manitoba agreement, that restoring some of that water monitoring would be part of the federal costs in the ensuing program. I know that it is certainly under discussion, but I do not know whether or not the federal government has made any final decision on it.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, under the 1975 federal-provincial water quantity survey agreement, there were certain elements and conditions of funding from the provincial government and certain funding requirements from the federal government. In 1994, the provincial government withdrew about 43 percent of funding in the '94 budget. In 1995, the federal government withdrew some 70 percent of the funding that is scheduled to take effect in August of 1997. We have had both experts inside the provincial government and experts outside of the provincial government saying that this could have, potentially, a disastrous impact.

Will the Premier himself be taking a flexible position on our funding cutbacks of 1994 so that we can go back to the table and get the co-operative provincial-federal agreement in place again for the future, as we have in the past, and have flexibility in terms of the provincial cutbacks that the federal government is alleging is leading to their cutbacks, both of which we do not certainly support?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, as I have indicated in this House and I believe as well the Minister of Natural Resources has, the areas of reduction on the Manitoba side were in the construction side, the--

An Honourable Member: Different question.

Mr. Filmon: Okay. Perhaps that is a question then that should better be answered by the Minister of Natural Resources.

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Well, Madam Speaker, the implication of the member's question was that Manitoba somehow added to the issue of adequate monitoring through the management that we have applied within our own department, and what I indicated earlier and what I want to reiterate is that the history of the program is that it was originally largely a federal program that has become increasingly a co-operative agreement signed with the province, and reductions up until recently have been done in a way to make sure that we did not compromise the forecasting ability on surface water quantity.

The proposed next reduction, through letters and communications from myself and from the government, we have indicated that it is simply not an option to have any further reduction in the capability for water quantity monitoring. We have indicated that concern, and we have received preliminary assurances from the federal authorities that they would be reconsidering their reductions.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, the federal Liberal government is currently promoting the so-called Multilateral Agreement on Investment, whose purpose is to give investors the right to buy, sell, or move businesses or any other assets under any terms and conditions they want, regardless of what the sovereign state might want. Federal officials apparently have briefed nongovernmental organizations on the treaty which was supposed to have been completed this month but has been delayed.

Can the First Minister advise the House whether his government supports the Multilateral Agreement on Investment as currently drafted and whether or not his officials have prepared a provincial position? If they have, what is that position, Madam Speaker?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I am going to table a copy of the draft agreement so that Manitobans can see for themselves what is in this document.

Can the First Minister confirm that the treaty, as currently drafted, would have made it possible for foreign corporations such as AT&T to have purchased 100 percent of Manitoba Telecom Services and that there would have been nothing his government would have been able to do to prevent immediate, complete purchase of that phone company by any foreign multinational that wanted to purchase the shares?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): No, Madam Speaker, I cannot confirm that.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, the Premier seems quite out of touch with issues that are of great concern, for example, to the western governors of the United States of America, some 30 states of the United States that have great concern about this issue.

Could he confirm that under the current treaty the western governors' concerns about investment for the purpose of creating jobs or maintaining environmental standards would not be able to be met, that the current treaty would not make it possible to set targets of any kind of local procurement, that, for example, the Limestone agreement would not be possible? Can he confirm that the western governors of the United States, at least, have a point?

Mr. Filmon: There is no current treaty. I know that the member opposite is speaking in terms of drafts, and as we all know, drafts are often changed substantially before they reach any final conclusion.

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Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, The Pas hospital has been forced to give up evening snacks to its patients because of budget restraints; Holiday Haven had problems, but the minister had no way of getting the information; Seven Oaks, Concordia and Victoria have eliminated their LPNs, but the minister is not responsible; Grace is closing its obstetrics, but the minister is not responsible; clerks at Concordia Hospital are going to be taking on nurses' aides roles, but the minister is not responsible. Yet the government is cutting $40 million to $50 million out of the city hospital budgets this year.

When will the minister be forthright with the people of Manitoba and take his responsibilities and admit the fact that most of these changes are as a result of the government cutbacks to the health care sector?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Let us examine the question from the member for Kildonan. One premise on which he makes his statement in this House is if we are in a static system. We are not, Madam Speaker. In fact, if anything, we have seen a shift in services away from institutions into the community. If he looks at the budget of the Ministry of Health over a number of years, he will see that resources in hospitals, yes, have declined, as they have gone up on the home care side, as they have gone up on the community side, because it is very reflective, generally speaking, of a change in how we receive our health care services.

There is no doubt that from time to time our facilities are under pressure financially. Some, yes, due to budget restraints, some due to change as they adapt to changing circumstances in the system, but it is clearly not simply the premise on which he bases his question that is responsible.

Mr. Chomiak: Is the minister seriously proposing that a place like Health Sciences Centre, which formerly offered many home care equipment services to individuals to keep them out of the hospital, would start charging and would set up a store in the hospital if they were not being cut millions and millions of dollars from their budget and are forced to try to reclaim that money on the backs of people who have to attend the hospital? Is the minister seriously saying that is not the case?

Mr. Praznik: I believe the member for Kildonan is referring in his question to a story that was in today's Free Press about the Health Sciences Centre leasing space to a particular company that sells various devices. If the member had called over to the Health Sciences Centre and found out what their policies are with respect to equipment, he would have learned that, with respect to crutches, for example, the Health Sciences Centre has always charged a $20 fee to people for the rental of crutches for the duration of their illness, of which $5 was refundable. People on social allowance, for example, have that covered under that program, and that continues. But if the member had made the call, he would have found out that information.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, is the minister today seriously trying to state to the people of Manitoba that the fact that we are charging for home care equipment, the fact that Grace Hospital is closing its obstetrics, the fact that LPNs have been laid off at Concordia, Victoria and Seven Oaks is not a result of government cutbacks? Why is he shirking the responsibility that this government was elected to handle and to deal with the health care of Manitobans?

Mr. Praznik: The member for Kildonan raises a number of issues. Let us deal with nursing, for example. There have been hosts of changes in the nursing profession, the qualifications of nurses, the requirement of staffing mixes to get the best use of staff for dollars available. That has gone on our system. It is a very complicated issue. If the member is suggesting that we maintain the status quo at all costs, even if it is not needed, even if it is not the best, that is not acceptable at all.

The member, again, has made reference to changes in facilities, mentioned this particular issue at the Health Sciences Centre. If those facilities are able to find sources of revenue that add to their budget, is there anything particularly wrong with that if it is not part of insured services? In fact, if anything, if you support our current governance structure, those facilities have that ability to do it.

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education. User fees are being charged more and more in public schools. User fees are in fact being charged to students to just enter a classroom, a classroom in junior high or senior high in many schools and school divisions in Manitoba. As the minister responsible under the education act for the supervision, the control and the direction of all public schools, does the minister believe that students have the fundamental right to attend public school regardless of their family income?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Absolutely.

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Ms. Mihychuk: How can the minister then justify a system, her system, a system this government built that charges students compulsory registration fees to enter classrooms?

Mrs. McIntosh: If the member would be good enough in her next question to tell me which classroom a student cannot enter without paying, I will investigate that, Madam Speaker, or if she wishes to give me that now, I can give it in my second answer.

Madam Speaker, this government provides the public school system of Manitoba with $746 million a year, a $115-million increase since we took office, a huge increase to public schools. In addition to that, we also have money flowing into the system in additional grants over and above that for medical assistance, et cetera, in the schools. The member is aware of those extra monies going to public schools. Many divisions do have extra enhancements they add to the system that are not covered and never have been by public school funding such as certain kinds of extracurricular programming, et cetera, that have never been funded, and sometimes they will take money from education funding to pay for those. User fees have always been around. I am not aware of students being charged to enter a classroom.

Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, it is clear that the minister is not aware of the extensiveness of user fees. Will she conduct a comprehensive study, a list of the types and amounts of user fees being charged to students in the public education system so that she can become aware of the charges to students in Manitoba schools?

Mrs. McIntosh: School divisions have always, throughout time, charged user fees for certain things. As a student many years ago, I, myself, was charged student fees for a number of things, for field trips, for locker fees, for student fees, et cetera. Madam Speaker, school divisions have ample money within their budgets to allow students to come to school without charging them to enter a classroom. Now I could begin my investigation by having her give me some specifics to her allegation that schools are charging students to enter a classroom. If she could back that up with a specific example, I would be pleased to investigate it. So far as I know, I have not heard complaints of that specific nature from the public.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is for the Minister of Health. This is the government that has decided ultimately to create a new level of bureaucracy known as the regional health authorities. The regional health authorities, if they come up with the recommendation to accept the obstetrics leaving the Grace Hospital, this government is prepared to abide by that particular decision. Madam Speaker, the question to the minister is: Does the ministry, in particular this minister, believe that the government of the day should be deciding what sorts of services ultimately should be provided in our community hospitals, that it should not be the regional boards and the minister hiding behind them?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I again find it difficult to understand where the member for Inkster is coming from, because just a few weeks ago in this House he rose here to defend the current governance system, to defend those facilities that have and want to continue to have a governance role, a full governance role in making the decisions with respect to their facility. You cannot have it both ways. There is a fundamental debate about what role government has. Are we just the funder of health care, or are we the provider of it as well?

Madam Speaker, in the policies that we have taken, we have recognized the role technology has given us to a large degree to be the provider. We are making those decisions to put not bureaucracy in shape, not another level of governance, but the kind of tool, the kind of governance instrument that will be able to give a rational, objective view to delivering services to meet the changing and ongoing changing needs of Winnipeggers and Manitobans.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, does the minister see any difference in Alberta where they have a regional board in Edmonton? They are suggesting a private hospital. Does the minister believe that our regional board can make the same sort of suggestion and have private hospitals in the province of Manitoba? What role does the Minister of Health today have with policy with respect to the regional health boards?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the question of a private hospital in this province has not even been considered by this government because it is not one that fits into our planning. Our job is to make the current system, a public system, function well.

Madam Speaker, if the member for Inkster would do some research and check into the issue, what he would find is that one of the difficulties that they found in Edmonton is when they actually took the advice he offered me some weeks ago in this House and maintained this kind of double complete governance system, that did not allow the benefits of regionalization to take place. So I hope they do not follow his advice. I would not follow his advice.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, the minister said that he does not want to follow the plan of private hospitals. The question then is: Does the government want to follow the plan of taking out obstetrics from the Grace Hospital?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the question is not a simple one as to whether or not there shall be an obstetrics program at the Grace or not be one. There are lots of factors that fit into that. Obviously, you have to have a group of practitioners who are prepared to practise there, that will have enough babies delivered in that facility to have a well-practiced centre. How you organize that system to even create the opportunity for that to happen is what is critical. That is why we created the Winnipeg Hospital Authority; that is why we are working to put it into place in the manner we are, which the member opposed in this House.

The opportunity for the Grace is not a yea or nay to fund or not fund. It is: Will you have the practitioners; will you have the mothers who want to have their babies there that creates a sufficient unit to be well practiced? That is the real problem, and that is what we are trying to address.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, yesterday we heard more information about how flood assistance will be made available for flood victims and municipalities, but we have no definite answer on what will be happening with farm assistance. We hear of possible assistance for farmers who will be unable to seed, but no details are available. Can the Minister of Agriculture indicate how the unseeded acreage payments will be handled? Will it be administered through crop insurance, and if so, what will be the implication on those people who have already purchased unseeded crop insurance--unseeded acreage?

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I want to thank the honourable member for Swan River for the question and indicate to her that it would certainly give me some comfort if I could answer her at this particular time more definitively than I can. There are committees involving the federal and provincial senior bureaucrats working on the compensation package that the Red River Valley farmers will require, but discussions have not been concluded. It is my understanding that the senior federal minister, Minister Lloyd Axworthy, has indicated that in the next two or three days hopefully these discussions will have come to a conclusion, and we will be able to, with some detail, respond to that kind of a question, not just to the member for Swan River, of course, but to the many farmers who are waiting for that answer.

Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, since Manitoba Crop Insurance is legislatively required to operate as an actuarially sound insurance program, will the minister agree that any ad hoc payments must be handled in a way that will not have a negative impact on Manitoba Crop Insurance?

Mr. Enns: Again, Madam Speaker, I thank the honourable member for that question and indicate to her that I do agree with the implications of that question. We do not want to disturb the soundness of the insurance program that is offered by Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation and, quite frankly, it would not be fair to the other farmers who participate in the program if ad hoc programs were injected to the program by this group of producers and then borne as a whole throughout the province. We have always made it very clear as spokespersons, people, including the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) and people out of his office, when dealing with this matter with the federal authorities indicated that any support of that kind would have to be outside of the crop insurance program.

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Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier. On television on Thursday, May 15, '97, the former dean of management at the University of Manitoba, Bill Mackness, the current PC candidate in Winnipeg South, described the ManGlobe project as follows: It is a classic boondoggle of government spending, and if it were their own money, I would say they should go for it, but unfortunately they insist on using our money.

I would like to ask the Deputy Premier: Will the Deputy Premier be discussing this issue later today with Bill Mackness, Jean Charest and the Premier when they meet for their photo op?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): No, Madam Speaker, we will be talking about how badly the Charest party and the PC Party will trounce the NDP in the upcoming federal election.

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, yesterday in Estimates, the Deputy Premier confirmed large losses of taxpayers' money in his other pet projects, Iris Systems Inc., which lost $877,000; TeleSend and Gateway Incorporated, where he lost another $200,000. How many other failed projects has this minister recommended to Treasury Board?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, let me at the outset say that is not what I said in Estimates yesterday. In fact, I indicated that one company was no longer in operation and that was Iris, although the technology and the information, the work that they had done did in fact develop some technology that was marketed. Secondly, the other companies that he is referring to are still operating in the province of Manitoba and hiring people and providing services. So I do not know where he is getting his information from. If he would only read Hansard from yesterday, it might be helpful.

Mr. Maloway: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Deputy Premier what due diligence was done before he approved these projects, and did he check the credit ratings and backgrounds of any of the principals involved in these projects?

Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, the member has a very short memory. I answered those questions in Estimates yesterday, and he would be well advised to read those answers.

Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, today the Minister of Natural Resources finally put out a news release talking about the Destinet deal where the campers in Manitoba will now have to book their camping reservations through an American company. In the news release the minister talked about a central toll-free information line. Well, that always was the case. He said that campers from outside Manitoba can now map out their visits. They always could. What is different is that it now costs more, the profits go to an American company, and there will be part-time employment instead of full-time people working at our parks.

I want to ask the minister: Will Destinet employ a comparable number of full-time employees to those who have already been laid off from Natural Resources who previously did this work at our campsites?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, the member is so unwilling to see that there is an opportunity to having a call centre moved to this province which potentially will create 20 or more jobs, as many as 50 jobs, and they would have an opportunity to take on far more than just campsite registrations. If he wants to close his mind to opportunities like that for the citizens of this province, then we know why he has no vision of the future.

Mr. Struthers: This minister should open his mind to full-time employment and quit kicking Manitobans out of work and replacing them with part-timers.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member, to pose his question, please.

Mr. Struthers: The minister confirmed that the service for campers will suffer because Destinet agents outside of Manitoba are unaware of our parks. For example, one agent had to ask a camper how to spell the word "Manitoba."

Mr. Cummings: Madam Speaker, the member for Dauphin refuses to acknowledge that there are going to be 20-plus jobs created in a call centre here in Manitoba. He wants to talk about--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Cummings: I guess they are not interested in call centre jobs. That is unfortunate.

Madam Speaker, I do not want to cause embarrassment to the member for Dauphin, but I just handed out a recognition of 18 new Natural Resources officers who have just been sworn in to the Department of Natural Resources. Are those not real jobs?

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Natural Resources, to quickly complete his response.

Mr. Cummings: To conclude my response, I will have to, for emphasis, repeat that there are going to be call centre jobs--a call centre located here to provide a service far in excess of what we have been able to supply up till now. If the member refuses to acknowledge that, then he had better get with it.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Dauphin, with a final question.

Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, if this minister thinks this is such a good deal, why will he not table that contract like I asked him to last week?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I will speak slowly. The contract agrees that a call centre will be established in this province where it will employ Manitobans. They will employ Manitobans. It will create 20 to 50 jobs. The member refuses to acknowledge that those are real jobs, typical of the opposition. The best job creation record in the country and they do not want it.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): A point of order, Madam Speaker, and I will state my point of order very slowly.

The question was: Will the minister please table the contract? I would appreciate if you would ask him to either table the contract or not waste the time of the House with his rather long meandering answers that have very little to do with the question. He was asked to table it, and I would ask you to bring him to order and make sure he does that.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I would remind the honourable minister that, indeed, his answer should reply to the question asked.

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I want to ask the Minister of Health today if he has had time to meditate on his own fall 1996 provincial AIDS strategy, and has he given attention to the question of actually funding the strategy. Will he match his federal counterparts and consider funding AIDS service organizations like those that have submitted funding proposals to him, for example, the Village Clinic?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I remember before the federal election call, the member for Osborne and I, in this House, in an exchange of questions and answers talking about the withdrawal of federal money, and I think my prediction to her was, with an election coming and the track record of the Liberals to come out at election time with funding commitments, we might see some progress. I am pleased to see that the federal government, during the course of an election, has renewed this funding commitment, because I think it is welcomed by all who work in this area.

With respect to our provincial commitments, we have that strategy in place. There is obviously a fair bit of work to do by myself and others in the department to assess exactly what we are able to provide. I continue to work with that community to do the best that we can, but I certainly welcome the renewal of the federal money.

Ms. McGifford: Maybe a provincial election will ensure funding to the AIDS service organization.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Osborne, with a supplementary question.

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Since the minister on both March 6 and April 15 indicated to this House his support for an AIDS hospice, I want to ask him what steps he has taken toward realizing such a facility. Whom has he contacted, what concretely has happened and what support is he offering?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): I think the member will find it does not take a provincial general election on this side of the House. This government has been very committed to a host of areas in a very rational and reasoned approach over the years, and we will continue to do that.

Madam Speaker, there are a host of issues here. The member asks me today to make a commitment carte blanche to a number of organizations that have submitted particular funding requests. I would hope that she would expect us to assess the ability of those organizations to deliver services. Some of them that she is aware of have some issues that have to be addressed in terms of their own ability to provide deliverables for dollars that are there.

With respect to a hospice, that is obviously one of the issues that has to be addressed as we move into looking at capital needs and needs assessments within our regional health authorities. I hope that we are going to see some resolution to that through that process.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.