The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Shirley Render): Will the Committee of Supply come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Labour. Does the honourable Minister of Labour have an opening statement?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Labour): Thank you, Madam Chairperson, I do. Would you like me to proceed with it?

The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Render): Please proceed.

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Mr. Gilleshammer: Madam Chairperson, it is my privilege to present the Expenditure Estimates of the Department of Labour for the fiscal year '97-98. As the new Minister of Labour, I have enjoyed meeting with the members of the labour management community, and I look forward to a good working relationship with them.

I have also had the pleasure of meeting the staff of the department. They are dedicated and hard-working professionals who, under the very capable leadership of my deputy, Mr. Tom Farrell, provide valuable services to the citizens of Manitoba.

I would like to also acknowledge the recent retirement of two senior members of the department, Mr. Tom Bleasdale who was the deputy minister, and certainly pleased to see so many people from the department, the community and a number of political parties out to attend that event. Also retiring was Mr. Jim Davage, well known across the province for his work in conciliation and working with the labour management groups. On behalf of the government and all Manitobans, I would like to thank them for their years of public service.

For 1997-98, the total budget request for the Department of Labour is $12,613,600, representing a reduction of 2.7 percent from the previous year. This reflects the reduction of seven and a half staff years from various administrative or support areas within the department. This has been possible largely through reorganization changes and through the rationalization of administrative support services. These changes will result in organizational improvements and will not have a deleterious effect on direct program delivery to the public.

Effective April 1, 1997, the department was reorganized from four divisions to three with the amalgamation of the Labour and Management Services divisions into one division. Also, the Mechanical and Engineering branch is now part of the Workplace Safety and Health Division, and the Pension Commission now reports directly to the deputy minister.

The Department of Labour recovers a significant proportion of its annual expenditures through its various sources of revenue. For 1997-98, the department projects to recover about 63 percent of its total budget as revenue.

As Minister of Labour, I recently had the opportunity to be part of an important international initiative with Manitoba's signing of the Canadian intergovernmental agreement on the North American Agreement on Labour Co-operation. I am pleased that, by participating in the labour side agreement, Manitoba will be able to more effectively monitor the enforcement of labour laws across North America, promote labour standards internationally consistent with Manitoba's high standards, protect basic rights of workers and protect the Manitoba economy from potential competitive impacts caused by failure to properly enforce labour laws in the United States, Mexico or future NAFTA countries. My department is committed to participating directly and fully in the implementation, management and further development of this historic international agreement.

As members are aware, as Minister of Labour, I have introduced four bills before the House. The proposed amendments to The Pension Benefits Act represent a positive step towards creating an environment which promotes the expansion and the establishment of employer-sponsored pension plans, as well as ensuring that benefits of plan members are offered adequate protection.

Changes to The Retail Businesses Holiday Closing Act have been brought forward to provide for a more timely and efficient approach by authorizing ways for establishments to obtain permits through special exemptions issued by the Minister of Labour without requiring the authorization of the Lieutenant Governor in Council.

The amendments introduced to The Steam and Pressure Plants Act are directed at eliminating duplication without reducing safety requirements. The proposal provides that, where a pressure vessel is subject to inspection under the federal Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act, it would not be subject to regular two-year inspection requirements under the provincial act.

Amendments proposed to The Workplace Safety and Health Act provide for a tenfold increase in fine levels under the legislation and reflect the unanimous recommendations of the Advisory Council on Workplace Safety and Health. The council is comprised of members representing workers, employers and technical organizations.

I would also like to inform you that work has been progressing on the legislative development of a very important initiative, the labour standards code. This code will consolidate, streamline, simplify and update three separate but related acts respecting employment standards. This is a major drafting effort, and plans are to have the work completed for introduction in the next session of the Legislature.

I would like to recognize the important work undertaken and contributions made by the department's external advisory committees such as the Advisory Council on Workplace Safety and Health, the Manitoba Pension Commission and the Labour Management Review Committee. The time and efforts of all committee members are very much appreciated, and, on behalf of the province, I would like to thank them for their advice and assistance.

Since 1989, the Department of Labour has demonstrated its commitment to improve public services through a series of initiatives including a quality service client focus, establishment of client satisfaction feedback measures and development and implementation of a program performance measurement and accountability framework during 1995-96.

Building on the successes of the program performance measurement framework, the department is taking further steps to be forward-thinking to better serve Manitobans. As part of the government's Manitoba measures initiative, the department recently undertook work to clearly outline the department's vision, mission and strategic directions for the next three-to-five-year period. The proposed vision of the Department of Labour is that the economic and social well-being of Manitobans will be supported by the promotion of fair employment practices, safe and healthy workplaces and harmonious labour management relations.

The department's vision is operationalized through our mission, which is to promote appropriate standards and deliver quality services to all Manitobans through creative leadership and effective partnerships. This is consistent with and supportive of the government's policy goals of making Manitoba a better place to work and invest and improving our high quality of life. More specifically, the Department of Labour contributes to the province's long-term strategic goals by balancing the rights and responsibilities of employees and employers, facilitating stable labour relations, detecting and preventing workplace illness and injury, ensuring minimum standards and conditions of employment, protecting and promoting pension benefits, assisting workers with Workers Compensation Board claims, assisting employees, employers and communities in finding solutions to workforce adjustment issues arising from downsizing or closures and protecting public safety with respect to hazardous equipment, building standards and fire laws.

The department's strategic directions for the next three to five years include: No. 1, to continue to pursue change that will result in improved quality, efficiency and relevance in programs and services; secondly, emphasize prevention, public education and dispute resolution strategies as a means to support effective administration of our legislative mandates; thirdly, allocate resources on a risk assessment and value-added basis; and fourthly, increase emphasis on clarifying responsibility among stakeholders.

To assist with this, information technology methods and systems will be further developed to improve delivery of services, enhance public and communication initiatives and be consistent with new government-wide information systems. In pursuing these new directions, I consider as a priority the importance of consulting and communicating with external stakeholders to discuss policy development and obtain their advice. I see the opportunity as well to play an effective role to facilitate the resolution of issues and to seek co-operation among the parties.

In summary, the department is committed to assessing and measuring results-based performance. Integral to this ongoing process is implementing appropriate continuous improvement strategies and commitment to full accountability for results and for the use of public funds.

I would now like to highlight a few of the achievements and plans of departmental programs. The Workplace Safety and Health Division is committed to partnerships and co-operation as a basic approach to dealing with occupational safety and health matters. The division continues to support and strengthen the internal responsibility system in workplaces to ensure that all parties can address safety and health issues in an effective manner. The division has a number of new and ongoing initiatives such as the redesign of client training courses and support materials, marketing to build awareness and promote the services of the division and ongoing consultations with stakeholders. These are being undertaken in order to provide more effective and efficient strategies for reducing injury and illness in Manitoba workplaces. The division is also improving targeting key industries through the use of risk management strategies.

Overall, the number of WCB lost-time injury and illness claims and time-lost accident frequency rates have been trending downward since 1986. Annually the number of traumatic fatalities in both the construction industry and in the primer industries of logging and mining has been falling over the last 20 years. The division has noted intervention success in those sectors which have received focused activities such as logging and some portions of manufacturing resulting in a demonstrable reduction in fatalities, injuries, illness and corresponding cost-savings to employers and in direct Workers Compensation payments.

The Occupational Health Branch is instrumental in a national initiative to establish a standardized Canada-wide surveillance system of farm related hospitalizations and fatalities based on a Manitoba-developed model. The branch is proceeding to develop a comprehensive report on occupational illness and injuries statistics. The health of workers continues to be of concern and information is collected by monitoring hearing conservation program reports, lead exposure surveillance reports, pesticide applicators and fibregenic dust chest X-ray results resulting in inspections to improve control practices.

The Mines Inspection Branch has developed a national registry of mine rescue capabilities across all Canadian jurisdictions for use should a serious calamity strike. It is also working closely with Energy and Mines and the Petroleum Branch as well as the Environment department to provide one-window shopping service for mining investors. The division has signed a memorandum of agreement with the Petroleum branch of Energy and Mines whereby their staff take responsibility for conducting safety and health inspections on oilwells and rigs in order to rationalize resources between the respective Mines Inspection agencies.

The Workplace Safety and Health branch has successfully obtained the right to hold the 1998 International Farm Safety Conference which is normally held somewhere in the United States.

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Eight workplaces in the manufacturing sector had safety audits conducted resulting in more than a 30 percent decline in time-loss accidents and compensation costs. Audits are being introduced as a regular tool for Safety and Health Officers. The division initiated a number of proactive projects aimed at making significant inroads into the time-loss accident rate by focusing on the garment, restaurant and meat packing sectors. A new co-operative ergonomic program was established in conjunction with the Workers Compensation Board, the University of Waterloo and the University of Manitoba to provide free consultative advice to workplaces.

The branch has also initiated a review and redesign of its training materials to bring them up to date with current concepts and has introduced a revised client feedback follow-up form. The Mechanical and Engineering branch has completed the streamlining of all data systems concerning boilers, pressure vessels and elevator inspection programs through computerization to increase efficiency and reduce costs. The branch took a leading role in issuing a removal order for plastic vent pipes in natural gas appliances, thereby averting a potentially dangerous situation in residential gas appliances.

The advisory council on Workplace Safety and Health provides a valuable forum in which labour, management and technical experts can meet and regularly advise the minister. They have recently made recommendations on the mines regulation, fall protection of roofers, scaffolding, accident notification and maximum penalty provisions under the act. They continue to review other areas of mines regulation, agricultural clients' needs assessment, control of infectious disease and the first aid regulation.

The Employment Standards Division has undertaken several new directions to alter many of the traditional methods of program delivery. The use of risk assessment techniques to strategically target specific issues and sectors for various activities has been one of the primary divisional thrusts to ensure greater levels of client service.

The primary role of the Employment Standards Branch is the promotion and enforcement of fair employment practices for employees and employers. The branch is continuing to integrate a risk-based approach into all of the functional areas. The branch recently reorganized its operation to group field offices into teams with responsibility for specific sectors to better focus on service and preventive activities.

The risk assessment process was found to be effective in ensuring greater levels of understanding and compliance with legislation, since a key component involves the partnering and active involvement of stakeholders in the targeted sector. The development of various processes to resolve claims in a timely and effective manner has resulted in a 15 percent decrease in the number of days to resolve a claim and over 85 percent of claims being resolved without the need for a formal mechanism. This has been accomplished through offering clients alternative methods for claim resolution. A quick resolution process is offered at the inquiry intake stage of a complaint to resolve disputes in a proactive educational manner. Using this process, the branch was able to resolve over 400 complaints in an average time of four days.

A voluntary alternative dispute resolution process established prior to referring a case to the Manitoba Labour Board for adjudication has achieved an 85 percent success ratio and resulted in a 50 percent decrease in the number of Employment Standards referrals to the Labour Board. The branch is also developing public information materials and initiatives in relation to recent changes to The Construction Industry Wages Act which, along with the new regulations, came into effect May 1 and The Remembrance Day Act which will apply as of November 11.

The branch also has responsibility for minimizing the occurrence and/or impact of significant downsizing and closures in the province by providing employees and employers with access to services and programs through the activities of the Labour Adjustment unit. This unit provided services to 38 various adjustment committees over the last year, assisting 4,200 affected workers. An example of the type of services the unit can provide was the co-funding and sponsoring of a comprehensive community needs survey with the Local Government District of Pinawa to identify retraining opportunities and other issues of importance to the town to assist in the community's adjustment activities.

The Worker Advisor office ensures that workers and their dependents receive the benefits to which they are entitled under The Workers Compensation Act. The office is continuing its focus on improved service levels. Following the assignment of a file, first contact with a client in most cases occurs within four weeks or less. All inquiries are responded to within 24 hours. A focus group initiative was piloted to receive direct feedback from clients and their families to assist in quality service planning. The office also continues to develop co-operative activities with the Workers Compensation Board, resulting in greater sensitivity for all parties in dealing with issues.

The branch is also partnering with various organizations and multicultural communities to deliver educational programs to heighten awareness of The Workers Compensation Act. The Worker Advisor office has achieved notable success in the Workers Compensation appeal process with 64 percent of the issues referred to WCB's primary adjudication level, resulting in successful or partially successful resolution. In addition, 72 percent of issues appealed to the WCB review office were successful or partially successful.

With the amendments to The Pension Benefits Act passed last year, Manitoba became the first jurisdiction to enable the Minister of Labour to enter into multilateral agreements simplifying pension plan administration for companies operating in multiple Canadian jurisdictions. Since then, Manitoba's legislative changes have been used as a model by Newfoundland, and other provinces are considering similar measures.

Our departmental programs also monitor and apply other jurisdictions' best practices where appropriate. The Pension Commission has adopted the risk management model of the federal office of the superintendent of financial institutions. Risk management techniques will guide efficient and effective utilization of program resources including the expansion of audit activities. As a result of client feedback, the Pension Commission has enhanced its public education materials and communication initiatives such as having all materials available through the Internet and conducting workshops with clients to explain legislative changes. Further client surveys are planned for 1997-98.

I would like to say a few words about the Office of the Fire Commissioner. They have just completed their first year as a special operating agency. This has been a year of challenge and learning for all staff in both the areas of service delivery and marketing of products to nontraditional clients. Numerous partnerships have been developed over the year with opportunities for marketing both domestically and abroad. Contacts have been established in Argentina, Brazil, Chile and The Philippines. Discussions with emergency health are ongoing to transfer the training for emergency medical response and emergency medical technician to the Emergency Services Training College.

In order to best present their products and services, the office will engage the expertise of a consulting firm to assist in the development and implementation of a more in-depth marketing strategy. In order to remain competitive in the market, international accreditation is a top priority. Ten courses offered by the Emergency Services Training College are currently accredited. The review and evaluation process continues to ensure all programs meet these standards ensuring the future demand of all courses.

The combined efforts of the Office of the Fire Commissioner and the Manitoba Building Officials Association in developing courses on the building and plumbing codes are nearing completion. These courses are designed to enhance the knowledge and skills of all local building officials, as well as the construction industry, in administering the codes and will be available in the fall. The office, in co-operation with the Manitoba Association of Fire Chiefs, is reviewing all services provided to address cost reductions and ensure maintenance of public safety. Education and prevention remain the most cost-effective way to meet the fiscal and operational challenges facing Manitobans. This has resulted in the formulation of a five-step action plan. This plan has been distributed to all municipal fire departments to assist them in developing fire protection systems to meet the individual needs of their communities. This plan deals with public education, fire prevention, incident management, general operating guidelines and fire department training plans.

The Conciliation, Mediation and Pay Equity Services branch has a long tradition of facilitating dispute resolution. The branch seeks to enhance harmonious industrial relations in the province. Its services are seen as vital by labour and management. As of the third quarter in '96-97, 15,000 employees were affected by conciliation activities and 94 percent of the 147 assignments were finalized without a work stoppage.

The Manitoba Labour Board, as an independent and quasi-judicial body, serves as a forum for the resolution of labour relations issues in a fair and reasonable manner and in a way that will be accepted by labour and management. During 1995-96, 53 percent of disputes referred to board officers were resolved without the need for a formal hearing. The board plays an important role in fostering a stable labour relations climate in Manitoba. Recent amendments to The Labour Relations Act have required the board to develop a number of new policies and procedures to ensure that the requirements of the legislative changes are dealt with in an effective manner.

The board is also in the process of updating its communication initiatives, including public education materials and developing and implementing comprehensive information systems to assist in the monitoring and facilitation of processing time.

This completes my opening statement, Madam Chairperson, and I welcome a meaningful discussion of the Department of Labour's 1997-98 program Estimates. Thank you.

The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Render): I thank the Minister of Labour for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for Transcona have any opening comments?

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Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Chair, I do have a few comments that I would like to put on the record. I would like to start though by joining with the Minister of Labour in recognizing the services of Mr. Tom Bleasdale, the assistant deputy minister who is now retired and the services of Mr. Jim Davidge, who had been in the Conciliation and Mediation Branch of the Department of Labour. I want to join with the minister in recognizing the long-standing service that those two individuals have provided both to the Manitoba government and to the people of Manitoba, and to recognize that long service and to thank them for their efforts on behalf of the people of Manitoba and to wish them well during their retirement years.

I had the opportunity on several occasions to draw on their advice and guidance on issues that were drawn to my attention and I appreciate their efforts in that regard.

My questions that I will have today, Madam Chair, will deal with the various areas of the Department of Labour, too detailed to go into in explanation for the minister. I am sure he knows, or at least through his staff, the areas of questions that I have asked in past years. I have some questions in that regard. We will deal both with policy areas that the minister has talked about in his comments with respect to legislation and other areas. I have some questions that will deal with the Worker Advisor office, Employment Standards, the Workplace Safety and Health, Mines Inspections in particular because of the difficulties that have been encountered over the last year in those particular areas. I know the minister has in an advisory capacity staff that will be available to assist him in that regard.

Since the Office of the Fire Commissioner has been split off essentially from the department into a special operating agency, I will have the opportunity to ask some questions in that regard too. I will be asking some questions as well this year in respect to the Pension Commission, more along the lines of an education for myself but also to ask some questions that may also affect the minister in his future years of income after we both leave this particular job. So I have questions in that area and perhaps he can have his staff assist him in shedding some light on those areas.

So those will be the areas that I will be asking my questions, and Madam Chair, if it is your will, we can call the staff to the table and perhaps we can proceed with the questioning.

The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Render): I thank the opposition critic for his opening comments. As most of you know, under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item to be considered for the Estimates of a department, so accordingly we shall defer consideration of this item and proceed with consideration of the next line. Before we do that, I invite the minister's staff to join us at the table and ask that the minister introduce the staff that are present.

(Mr. Gerry McAlpine, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am joined here at the table by Deputy Minister Tom Farrell and also assistant deputy minister, Labour Management Services Division, Jim Nykoluk, and from our Financial Services, Mr. Jim Wood.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): I thank the minister. We will now proceed on to page 99 of the main Estimates book, item 11.1. Labour Executive (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $378,600.

Mr. Reid: I have a few questions in this area because I believe this is the area that the minister provides for his executive and special assistants. Can he tell me the names of the people that he has in that capacity and what their levels of pay are?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I can tell my honourable friend that I have a special assistant whose name is Ryan Matthews. I am not sure what salary he is at. I believe I am correct in saying that it is somewhere under the starting salary for special assistants. And of course I have an executive assistant at the constituency level, and he is paid within that category. I have one executive assistant and one special assistant.

Mr. Reid: Is the minister telling me then he only has one special assistant and no executive assistant, and is he also referring to a constituency assistant paid under the constituency access fund?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am telling you that I have in the department a special assistant who works with myself and the department on issues to do with the department, and I have an executive assistant who is responsible, as most executive assistants are, for constituency matters.

Mr. Reid: So the executive assistant, then, is paid under the department's funding under Executive Support or is it coming out of the constituency access, and what is the name of the individual?

Mr. Gilleshammer: The individual's name is Mr. Derrick Turner. He is an executive assistant of mine who is paid by the department.

Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me when these individuals came into the service of the minister in the department?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I joined the ministry in early January in 1997, and Mr. Matthews came on board as my special assistant some time later that month. Mr. Turner has been my executive assistant in my days in the previous portfolio of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship and Minister responsible for Multiculturalism and Minister responsible for the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission. So when I changed portfolios, Mr. Turner remained as my executive assistant.

Mr. Reid: There has been an increase in the Administrative Support budget line item of some $12,000. Can the minister tell me the reason for that increase?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that this was an adjustment that had been covered off in different ways over previous years. It explains part of it. I believe the assistant to the deputy minister has returned to the department after four years. Her salary was higher than the incumbent's.

Mr. Reid: Perhaps the minister can explain, what does he mean the assistant to the deputy minister has returned? Has the individual been away, seconded to some area, and if so was that individual's position left vacant for that period of four years?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that that individual, who is an assistant to the deputy, was away for a period of some four years and that it was in her absence the position was filled by someone else at a lower level of pay.

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Mr. Reid: I have no further questions in that area.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): 11.1.(b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $378,600--pass. (2) Other Expenditures $69,700.

Mr. Reid: In that particular section, Mr. Chairperson, can the minister tell me--I guess I should have asked this question under the first area. It was talking about the overtime allotment. Can you tell me what overtime is provided for here? We are in the process here where we have Filmon Fridays, and I see you have time allotment here for overtime. Does that mean that we should not be taking these Filmon Fridays?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that it is not overtime. It is funding set aside for vacation relief.

Mr. Reid: Then would it not be more appropriate in future budget Supplementary Estimates documents to show that is vacation relief instead of the overtime allotment?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I think my honourable friend has made a good suggestion that we will certainly follow up on.

Mr. Reid: No questions.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): 11.1.(b)(2) Other Expenditures $69,700--pass.

Item 11.2. Labour Programs (a) Management Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,122,300.

Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me, are there any vacancies in Management Services Division?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am informed that there is one vacancy.

Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me how long this position has been vacant, what the position is, and when he expects it to be filled, if he expects it to be filled?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that the position has been vacant for some eight months and that the work in that area under the reorganization is currently being done by another employee.

Mr. Reid: What type of work was the individual performing? When I say that, Mr. Chairperson, I mean was it in the administrative support, professional-technical or managerial areas?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told it was executive support for the former deputy minister who, we had both mentioned in our comments, has just retired.

Mr. Reid: Well, does that mean that the new assistant deputy minister does not require the same type of support service?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I think I indicated that the work is being handled by another individual.

Mr. Reid: So I guess that leads one to ask the question then, if the individual is dispensable now, why was the individual there in the first place? Is there not a workload that would be required in that particular capacity as assistant deputy minister that would require that type of support for those activities?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I think I referenced in my opening comments a considerable restructuring of the department. What used to be four different, separate entities was collapsed to three, and part of the restructuring has led to some staffing adjustments, and I guess I will rely on the advice of my deputy and my assistant deputy. If the work is being covered off because of the restructuring, we will all be satisfied, and if adjustments have to be made further down the road, then we will make every effort to do that.

Mr. Reid: Then I take it that you have reduced your staff years in the Management Services Division from 31 down to 29 this year, and since you have left this job vacant now for some eight months, am I to read into this that you are anticipating a further reduction of at least one staff year as a result of leaving that position vacant?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I think it is premature to make that conclusion. The department is assessing the work activities, and that assessment will be an ongoing process.

Mr. Reid: What type of work was picked up? I mean, are you saying here that the individual that has picked up that workload was only working at 50 percent capacity before and that you were not getting full utilization out of the skills of that individual that was, I take it, working full time, and that now affords the department the opportunity to shift that workload over to another individual? Are we asking that person to do 200 percent, or were they only working at 50 percent before?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I think, Mr. Chairman, that in the department, through the restructuring, some of the changes were made to be sure that we cover off all the activities we are responsible for. Certainly I do not believe, and I did not say, we had people working part time and being paid full time. I think sometimes when changes are made and restructuring happens, technology comes into play. Sometimes, by just reorganizing, the workload can be covered by the staff that are currently there. Again, I have indicated to my honourable friend that we will continue to monitor that until I hear, and my deputy, I am sure, will monitor it until we hear that there is work that is not being done. We are going to carry on in this method.

Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me, because there is a managerial line here, you have six staff years showing for this year, one less than last year, is there administrative support or secretarial staff that is attached to those particular managerial positions?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes.

Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me, since we have had some discussion with his predecessor here over some of the legislation that had occurred last session and it involved--because it is my understanding that the department, when they are considering legislation on labour-related issues used to utilize the services, or at least bounce the ideas off the LMRC, whether or not that particular committee is still functioning and whether or not the minister does utilize the services of the people in management and labour to provide some advice to the minister on legislative direction?

Mr. Gilleshammer: The LMRC still exists and I believe has been back and forth with departmental staff. I personally have not met with them.

Mr. Reid: Does the minister know, is that particular body still meeting?

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Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that the committee or part of the committee met as recently as last Monday.

In my opening remarks, I not only referenced the legislation that I have tabled in the House for this session, but also a piece of legislation that we are working on for the next legislative session.

Mr. Reid: Because he said that the body, LMRC, is still meeting, at least in the steering committee capacity, has the minister asked that particular body to provide comment on the legislation that he currently has before us in the Chamber, and since he did mention in his comments that he is looking at changes to The Employment Standards Act--a different named that he has attached to it, but it is still the employment standards area--whether or not the LMRC has been asked to provide some opinion on those particular pieces of legislation that the minister has tabled and is contemplating.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I guess the answer is that LMRC and parts of it continue to play a role. I am given to understand the legislation that we have brought forward on the Workplace Safety and Health which is going to increase the fine levels there by tenfold was a unanimous recommendation that came out of this body.

As well, the reference in my opening remarks to the employment standards legislation where we are looking at three different acts and trying to perhaps amalgamate that into one act and make some adjustments that are necessary to update legislation, some of which was passed a number of decades ago, the LMRC is going to be asked to make comment on that and assist with that.

Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me, does he have any plans, since it has been some time now that the Minimum Wage Board has met, does he intend on calling back into service the Minimum Wage Board?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, my honourable friend can appreciate that my appointment to this portfolio was just a number of months ago and that we were immediately thrust into a new legislative session with a budget that had been worked on by the department and the previous minister and that we have a reasonably heavy legislative agenda for this session.

I reference the four bills that we have here, and I think that I have one other that was brought forward by the Civil Service Commission and looking at one other, as well, that we may be able to get completed, that I have found my time has been quite taken up with meeting with a lot of the stakeholders who have a great interest in the Department of Labour and the activities that we are involved in.

So at this point, I have not had any time to think about that. None of the stakeholders that I have met with have mentioned it either. I have tried to, again, visit within the department as much as possible and meet with any of the groups which have an interest within the department, and I have been, I guess it is fair to say, busy with these activities that I have just mentioned.

Mr. Reid: Well, I can appreciate the minister has had his portfolio change on him, and it was a very short period of time before we were all brought back to a new session, but it is my understanding that the minister does not have to take that under his own consideration. He has capable and qualified people in his department, I am sure, who can advise him on activities with respect to that particular board and can then provide recommendation to the minister.

I think it should also be interesting to consult with members of the public, the stakeholders that the minister is talking about, and I hope they do come forward. It has been some time since the minimum wage has now been adjusted again. There was quite a number of years before it had been adjusted prior to that. I think it is going back to 1990 or 1991, so there were at least four, five years before the minimum wage was adjusted.

There is a time lag that is involved between investigation and report and any actions that a government may choose to take. That is why I draw to the minister's attention that there is a period of time here that the particular board would require to put together its investigation and report to the minister; so if the minister would take it at least under advisement to look into the matter and to consider seriously the striking of that Minimum Wage Board to make sure that we keep pace with other jurisdictions within the country, that we do not see a four-year or five-year lag as we saw last time, disadvantaging people on the low end of the working pay scale. I think looking at the amount of income that an individual would earn on that, it is very difficult to support a family.

I know there are trade-offs that take place with respect to how it impacts on the business opportunities in the province versus the opportunities for working people to achieve a quality or standard of living that we would consider acceptable. That is why I draw it to the minister's attention and ask him to consider striking that board to at least have some opportunity to review whether or not there needs to be an adjustment to the minimum wage in the province.

I want to ask the minister with respect to trades certification, because it is my understanding that the Management Services Division is also the policy branch for the department, does provide some policy analysis and research on various issues, whether or not the department is looking at changing the number of trades certification in the province. Perhaps you can give me an update on the number of trades that we have certified here currently.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that while we license individuals such as plumbers and electricians, the training and apprenticeship activities are lodged within the Department of Education.

Mr. Reid: I understand that. There was a change that was made a couple of years ago. How many trades do you license then?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that there are two categories, electricians and plumbers that we license and one category of high-pressure welders.

Mr. Reid: Does the Department of Labour work in conjunction with the Department of Education's Training branch to look at certification? Has any discussion taken place between the two departments, now that that has been split off from Labour, to look at both the licensing of other trades within the province and to ensure that we have certified tradespeople working within the province, people who are adequately trained and provide both quality and safety services to the public?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that we have two staff that sit on the Apprenticeship Board and provide that input to the board and to the Department of Education.

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Mr. Reid: It has been a concern of mine, and I will draw it to this current minister's attention, that there has been a problem that has been drawn to my attention by members of various trades with respect to certification.

Now, you say that is outside of your area, and you only license those particular trades, but it has been drawn to my attention that it may be in the interest of the public to ensure that we have certified tradespeople working within the province to ensure both that we have a quality level of service from highly skilled tradespeople who quite often come into our homes and our businesses and even into this building to provide services to us and that if you have people sitting on that particular board consulting with the Department of Education, that we can try and build on the number of certifiable trades that we have in the province, and, therefore, the number of trades that we have under licence as well.

It may be an opportunity for the department to make sure that the public is well served with respect to both service and safety, to make sure that the proper training goes into the people who we have providing those services in those trades areas.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I will see to it that staff take your comments and pass them along to the appropriate individuals in the Department of Education.

Mr. Reid: I want to ask the minister, his department--and it was not his bill but it was the former Minister of Labour and his government's bill that was brought in, I think it was Bill 73 last year, The Construction Industry Wages Act, which was under the responsibility of the Department of Labour.

It is my understanding that that bill has just been brought into effect, so to speak. It has not been that long into effect. Perhaps you can give me the date of when it was advertised through the Gazette, and can you tell me who monitors the effect of that particular act's changes?

Mr. Gilleshammer: The act that the member is referring to I believe came into effect on May 1, and I am told that staff within Employment Standards are tasked with monitoring it.

Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me, because it is my understanding--and I think I have some documents here that deal with The Construction Industry Wages Act. There are the three booklets that you put out to the tradespeople that act more or less as a guide. I know that the legislation takes precedence over these booklets--because there is a level here. Can you tell me, what level are the apprentices who work in the trades that are affected by this act? What level of pay do they receive for their first year, their second year, third year, fourth year, not level in the sense of dollar values but, it is my understanding, as a percentage of the journeyman rate.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told it starts at 60 percent of the journeyman, and then it works its way up over a number of years.

Mr. Reid: Do you have a breakdown for years two, three, and four?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that we do not have that available now, but we can get that information for the honourable member.

Mr. Reid: I need to ask the minister a question here with respect to the new Construction Industry Wages Act, because what that act did was effectively take the house-building sector out of consideration under the act, where The Wages Act would take effect for those who are employed in the house-building sector.

Because there is now no regulation on wages for those who are employed in that sector, it is essentially left up to the free market to determine and for those who should they so choose to work in that area, whether or not they are willing to work for what level of wage.

Can the minister tell me what effect it would have if an employer was to have a journeyman work for--pick a number here because the minimum wage is $5.40 an hour--say, if they were to hire somebody for $6 or $7 an hour, is it conceivable that an apprentice could be hired for 60 percent of the journeyman rate?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that in practice that is not the case.

Mr. Reid: What is to stop an employer hiring a journeyman at $7 an hour, and then based on the apprenticeship starting rate being 60 percent, having those apprentices work for 60 percent of that journeyman rate?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I believe if I understand my honourable friend, he is saying under the scenario he describes that an individual would be working for something less than the minimum wage, and I am told that cannot happen.

Mr. Reid: So the minister is telling me then that the minimum wage act provisions take precedence over the apprenticeship area.

Mr. Gilleshammer: That is the advice that I get from my department.

Mr. Reid: Then can I make a request to the minister and the department because there appears to be some confusion that has been drawn to my attention as recently as two hours ago for the second time. There appears to be some confusion within the construction industry, at least by some members and I am talking employers here, on what act takes precedence with respect to apprentices working at what level of pay.

I think it would be in the interests of the public, both the employees and the employers, to know that, because it may be--we have not had enough time yet since this only came into effect May 1--a result of your changes to The Construction Industry Wages Act that there will be downward pressure on the house building sector since it is no longer covered under that act, and the wage levels are left to float, that if they do float downward from the current level where they had been, some employers may be confused over what takes precedence, whether it be the minimum wage act or the areas that affect the apprenticeship that say you can hire an apprentice at 60 percent or a sliding scale up to 100 percent until they complete their apprenticeship, to advise the public, both employers and employees, of which act takes precedence.

Mr. Gilleshammer: We certainly will endeavour to do that. If it is a widespread problem, it has not been brought to the department's attention at this point, but we can make some effort to have that information provided. If he wanted to have someone from the department contact directly the two people that indicated to you that there was some confusion, we will certainly have senior staff talk to them within the next short while. Thank you for that.

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Mr. Reid: I thank the minister for that undertaking, because I did not know the answer. I am still worried about the effect on the house-building sector. I mean, all of us would like to have a safe home to live in, for those of us that can afford it, and we want to ensure that those homes are constructed in a safe and quality way.

As I raised during my comments with respect to the legislation last year, my concern is that we are going to see downward pressure on the wages of those that are employed in that particular sector and that we may see less qualified people moving into that area, as the higher skill-level people would move out to other areas, perhaps directly in construction, that would be affected by the higher wages and then want to stay in those areas so they can maintain their standard of living. This should cause us all concern, that we will see less skilled people working in the house-construction sector. Those were the concerns we drew to the attention of the previous Minister of Labour and the government last session when they brought Bill 73 forward.

It is my understanding, in talking with this particular employee that I passed on the name and phone number for, that is a very serious concern for that individual who owns that particular company. He is going to have to compete now and drive down the wages of his people when he has been paying them under the wages act of this province. He tells me he has been one of the fairer employers and treated his people fairly, but now he sees that he is going to have to start undercutting the wages that he is paying his people. He is very worried about what the repercussions or the ramifications are going to be for his particular business.

So perhaps when you do make contact, you can have some discussions with him in that regard as well, because it is a very serious concern for that particular employer. I take it from his comments to me, again today, that there are other employers that he communicates with that are in the same position. We do not want to see that particular industry devastated with respect to the people that are employed in it or the standard of living that people achieve working in that particular sector of the economy.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I thank my honourable friend for those comments, and we will make every effort to make contact within the next day or so.

Mr. Reid: I thank the minister for that undertaking. Can the minister tell me: Is his department involved in any way, perhaps in conjunction with the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism, to ensure that the jobs that we have, the nearly 1,000 high-skilled, high-tech jobs that we have at Bristol Aerospace are protected and do indeed remain within the province? Is the department playing a role in protection of those jobs in that particular industry?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I am told that one of our senior staff, Mr. Jim McFarlane, who is the executive director, Employment Standards Division, has been meeting with the committee set up by the Canadian Autoworkers to review that situation.

Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me what progress has been made? What can he report with respect to the pending sale of Bristol?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that we have no information on the status of a sale.

Mr. Reid: Does Bristol Aerospace communicate with the department? Are they allowing the department to be involved in the process of that sale to ensure that the jobs are protected and they are not siphoned off to some other location?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that we have not been consulted on that. We are talking about an international company, of course, that has not consulted with our department about their plans for either acquisitions or sales of parts of their holdings.

Mr. Reid: Well, that is unfortunate. I am going to be up front with the minister here. When discussion happened a few years ago, and I am going back to 1991 now--I am starting to sound like I have been here a long time--we had sensed that there was some hope on the horizon when the discussions started to occur around the Winnport project.

If you look at the potential loss of the Bristol Aerospace jobs and the comments that were made by the management of the Boeing company when there was that workplace dispute there last year and the potential of those job losses, both in high-tech areas, it would not seem unreasonable to me to have the government of any political stripe interested and playing an active role as much as possible into preserving those particular jobs, whether it be for the jobs for the people living in the area of west and northwest Winnipeg, but those people come from all parts of the Capital Region.

We want to make sure that those jobs are retained here, and if we are not playing an active role--I mean, that company Rolls Royce which owns Bristol and is now wanting to sell it because the defence contracts are essentially ending after they have achieved probably hundreds of millions of dollars of profit out of the operations, that does not seem to be a responsible step from my perception of the company.

Now, they may want to offload it because they do not see a future for themselves of the same magnitude that they have seen in the past, but you would hope that they would be responsible to want to protect those jobs. If the government, both through the Department of Labour and Industry, Trade and Tourism, can play a role in facilitating the process to make sure that that industry stays here and that we find a buyer that wants to keep the operation a going concern here within the province of Manitoba, one would think that the Department of Labour would want to play an active role in that process.

So I have to ask the minister, what level of effort has the department made to push Bristol and Rolls Royce, saying that we want to be an active participant in the role to make sure that those jobs are protected and remain here in the Capital Region?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I think all Manitobans and all members of the Legislature are certainly interested not only in job retention but job creation as well, to have the economy of this province grow even further.

The Department of Labour, I have indicated, has not been involved, but I think there are other departments and agencies of government that are more closely aligned with activities to do with businesses. I know that, for instance, the Estimates for the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism are on at this present time, and I am sure capable colleagues of my honourable friend are there asking questions, and it will be a more appropriate place to put those questions.

Just on the subject, though, I would be interested in what measures or levers my honourable friend would suggest to retain any company that might be contemplating downsizing or moving, whether it is Boeing, Eaton's or other companies that are looking at their activities not only in Manitoba but across the country. What sort of policies or levers would my honourable friend suggest that a government employ?

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Mr. Reid: Well, I guess there is a risk that this process can degenerate into a lower level of debate and discussion here, and I do not want to pursue that course of action. I want to do it from a constructive point of view. I have tried to operate the Estimates process in this department and others that I have been involved with to try and find ways or solutions.

The minister has at his disposal in an ability or capacity to advise him a significant number of people both within and external to his department. I do not have those resources available to me. I was hoping that his department would be able to provide that guidance to him, both in conjuntion with the plant's operations and also with the other departments of government.

I sense from the comments of the Minister responsible for I, T and T, which is currently in Estimates in another committee room here, so I cannot be privy to the discussion that is taking place there, but from the discussion that has taken place within the Chamber itself during Question Period, that item is just floating along with regard to the Bristol sale, and no one seems to be in control. I am not saying that in a negative or derogatory way about the minister who is there. It is just an observation that I make based on the questions that have been asked and some of the answers that have come as responses, and that worries me.

We have nearly a thousand high-tech jobs that are involved, and if one department that is supposed to be in charge is just floating along, I am hoping that some other area--and I am looking to the Labour department to kind of pick up the slack because I do not want to lose those jobs. I do not think any of us want to lose those jobs, and if there is even the smallest role that we can play through the Department of Labour to protect those jobs, the high-tech aerospace industry, I think that we should be taking those steps to protect those jobs.

That is why I ask the minister to involve himself or to keep himself informed and to find out where the department can play a role in protecting those high-tech jobs.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I appreciate that, and I, too, would like to continue on a high level of debate. I was just going to suggest if there were suggestions that my honourable friend had, I would be pleased to take them to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey), to take them to him as suggestions from the member for Transcona and be sure that any ideas or concepts that my critic has would be passed along to that minister.

Mr. Reid: I will leave that, Mr. Chairperson, to the minister and hope that he will leave no stone unturned in his efforts through his department to make sure that both Bristol management and the Rolls Royce owner know that the government and the people of Manitoba are serious about retaining those jobs here. I have raised it here for the minister. I am hoping that he will take it under advisement at least.

I want to ask a question going back to the policy portion here because the minister talked a short time ago about possibly other changes coming to legislation. It has been drawn to my attention in a verbal way that there is some problem dealing with architects and engineers where engineers are now approving building designs.

Is the government contemplating any legislative changes that would impact upon those who are involved in the field of architecture that would allow for engineers to be given the opportunity, if they do not currently possess the legal requirements, to approve building designs in the province?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I guess, there has always been in professional organizations and professional societies certain turf that is staked out, and I know that organizations like that meet from time to time to try to clarify their roles and iron out any difficulties.

There have been some discussions about some professional bills, and I know that the executives or committees of those organizations have had meetings recently to try and clarify their roles.

Mr. Reid: So does the minister contemplate that the parties will be able to work out their differences in this regard, or does he anticipate that he will be bringing forward legislation in this regard to make the changes that he may be getting requests for from one particular sector?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, it has been my experience that with good will amongst parties like that, that they would be the best qualified to work out any difficulties that they have.

Mr. Reid: Then I take it that the minister is not contemplating any legislation at this point in time in that regard.

Mr. Gilleshammer: There have been some discussions taking place on a professional bill. If the details can be worked out, we may well be able to bring something forward.

Mr. Reid: Under legislation that is currently in place in the province, who is legally entitled to pass on building design specifications?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, my honourable friend has cut to the chase, and certainly that is the issue between engineers and architects, and it is the issue that I think they are in the process of trying to resolve between the two of them, that there is an area there of I suppose some professional dispute from time to time about what engineers do and what architects do, and I am told that their discussions are advancing quite favourably.

Mr. Reid: Well, to go back to my original question here, Mr. Chairperson, which was on the legislation that is currently in place in the province, who is legally entitled to pass on blueprints, design documents, building designs, prior to the construction? Is it the engineers or is it the architects under the current legislation?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I believe there is a gray area there that both engineers and architects lay some claim to and have to work through from time to time. My understanding is that the legislation is not crystal clear on that issue. Current legislation is not absolutely clear.

Mr. Reid: It is my understanding that this matter, if it is not already, could be before the courts. If it is before the courts, is the government playing a role in that process? Are they an intervener in any way?

Mr. Gilleshammer: No.

Mr. Reid: So, then, if there is a gray area that is involved in this process, would it not seem reasonable to expect that the minister, in conjunction with stakeholders that are involved in this process--and you say they are in discussion now--would want to take the steps to correct legislation to ensure that there is some clarity, so that those coming along in the future will know what the responsibilities are for each of the parties, for all of the parties including the government?

Mr. Gilleshammer: That would be a preferable course of action.

Mr. Reid: I guess environmental assessment is also another area in dealing with these projects. It is not only the architects and the engineers, I guess. Would it be the Department of Environment that would do the environmental assessments on these projects?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told the member is correct.

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Mr. Reid: When you are dealing with landscape architects, are they involved in this process? What role do they play?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told they come under The Architects Act.

Mr. Reid: When the minister is talking to the building architects and to the engineers who are involved in the design of these buildings as two of the stakeholders, have you had any discussions or have you included the landscape architects as well?

Mr. Gilleshammer: The discussions that have taken place have been between the engineers' organization and the architects', and the department has not been a part of those discussions.

Mr. Reid: So you are hoping then that those two parties will work it out, even though it is my understanding that the landscape architects may not be involved in the discussion as the third stakeholder in this process. Would it not seem reasonable to expect that all the stakeholders should be involved in the discussion?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, again, I am not privy to whom the architects and the engineers have brought under their umbrella to be part of this discussion, but I know that those organizations have been in discussion in recent days.

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask some questions about the prospective legislation of the new professional engineers act. That is the topic we are on, the line that we are on, and it does deal with the landscape architects.

I have just been following the last couple of exchanges with the minister, and am I understanding the minister correctly to say that the landscape architects come under The Architects Act, and, hence, is it his assumption that the negotiations that are going on between architects and engineers, which I think he said discussions are advancing favourably, that in a sense the architects are negotiating for the landscape architects?

Mr. Gilleshammer: We have no knowledge of just who has been part of that umbrella other than, I believe, it is the architects' society and the engineers' society that have been having these discussions.

Ms. Friesen: Is the minister aware of the concerns of the landscape architects about the prospects of the new engineering act?

Mr. Gilleshammer: They have not contacted me. I do not believe there has been any correspondence through our offices in that regard.

Ms. Friesen: When the minister began the process within the department of initiating changes to the professional engineers act, what was the process for dealing with that? Who was involved in making submissions, and did the minister go out to meet with specific groups, and, if so, were the landscape architects part of that, or were no groups met with? What was the process?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I think it is fair to say that the impetus for this came from the professional organizations as opposed to the department, that they have brought forward certain requests and ideas to look at the relationships that exist between engineers and technologists and architects and so forth.

In fact, I guess I have met with them only once. Actually, they have contracted to have somebody do some draft legislation, and it is really an issue that comes from their particular field of endeavour.

Ms. Friesen: Just for clarification, when the minister says their, and the associations, are you referring to anything more than the engineers' association?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I guess another party to the discussions has been the technicians and technologists.

Ms. Friesen: Is the minister anticipating a special piece of legislation or a dedicated piece of legislation for technologists, and I am thinking along the lines of recent Saskatchewan legislation on technologists.

Mr. Gilleshammer: That has been a part of the discussions.

Ms. Friesen: Has the discussion focused upon a separate act for technologists?

Mr. Gilleshammer: It is certainly one of the options that has been presented.

Ms. Friesen: Is the minister intending to bring forward in this session the new professional engineers act?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Perhaps.

Ms. Friesen: I do not know if the minister has ever heard the program Twenty Questions. You know, I feel like I am asking animal, vegetable or mineral here, of which "perhaps" is one of the answers.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, if you want me to answer precisely questions that have not been precisely addressed yet within the department, I cannot do that. I am trying to give you as much information as I can. I think the honourable member knows that when things are in process, you cannot be as precise as the member would like us to be.

Ms. Friesen: Well, what I had understood was that the engineers were under the assumption that this act was coming forward this session, and within recent days, in fact, that such a decision has been on hold, and so having the opportunity to speak to the minister directly here today, it seemed to me that that was a question that at least was on a few people's minds.

So the answer then that the minister gave me is essentially that it has not yet been decided.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, that is correct. I think there are many hurdles that have to be overcome in terms of drafting any piece of legislation, and that has to do with at times just the capabilities of drafters to get something done, translators to get translation done, and then trying to iron out those issues that are still on the table.

The deputy Leader of the official opposition would know that we do have certain deadlines that we have to try and meet. We try to accommodate stakeholders and other members of the Legislature by having bills tabled in a timely fashion that allows some time for debate. If some of the difficulties can be ironed out, and if the drafting and the translation can be done in the next while, we may well come forward with an act or some acts.

Ms. Friesen: Well, of course, we are also aware of the reduction in staffing in the civil service and the difficulties that this does pose for speedy and easily accessible translation and drafting of legislation, and we know, of course, that the government has gone to outside contracting for drafting of legislation which does offer different challenges, shall we say, for the minister in meeting deadlines. So I think those are probably also issues as well.

But I wanted to ask the minister, given the fact that it is still possible that such legislation may be introduced this session, whether he will be available within the near future to meet with landscape architects who have concerns about this.

Mr. Gilleshammer: If a request is made and if time permits, I would certainly do that, try to meet with any and all of the stakeholders that relate to this department, and I have enjoyed the interaction with them to date.

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Ms. Friesen: I was happy with the response, but I am not sure that I understood the last section. I understood the minister not to have yet met with landscape architects and not to have been approached by them.

Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct. I was speaking in a broader context, and in discussions that were held here prior to your arrival we talked about meeting with stakeholders on legislation and also stakeholders who wanted to meet on issues that have to do with this department. To date, I have, I believe, met with any and all who represent unions, management and other issues that sort of come through our department.

All I am saying is that if time permits, my practice has been to try and meet with any and all stakeholders.

Mr. Reid: I would appreciate it, Mr. Chairperson, if the minister would undertake to meet with the stakeholders prior to the tabling of any legislation to ensure that they are aware of or have had the opportunity to have some input into whatever legislation he may be contemplating in that regard, prior to its tabling, so that they are aware of what the effects will be and provide the department with some guidance.

I want to ask the minister questions that are in the next section, so I have no further questions in this particular section. I think it is 2.(a) we are in now.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): 11.2.(a) Management Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $l,122,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $288,000--pass.

11.2.(b) Mechanical and Engineering (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,489,000.

Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me how many vacancies are in this department, Mechanical and Engineering?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am informed there are two vacancies.

Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me in what capacity, which area, these jobs are vacant?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am informed that the vacancies are in the area of boiler inspector and gas inspector.

Mr. Reid: That seems to be a fairly critical area. I just think back to my own community dealing with schools where we have some of the maintenance staff now working on a part-time basis or rotating from school to school and who are not there to oversee the operations of boilers. At least that is the way it had been for a period of time, and now you say you have vacancies in boiler inspectors who would go out and inspect these particular operations.

Do you anticipate that you are going to be filling these vacancies in the very near future?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I am told that a boiler inspector will be returning to work after leave at the end of this month.

Mr. Reid: Is there no way that you have available to you now--I understand that there are human conditions that apply in any management situation where you have people who leave service or need leaves of absence, or there is vacation. Do you not have people who fill in in that capacity for those particular inspectors?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, from time to time, people do take leave for a number of reasons. Certainly, in operational matters like this, we rely on our staff to be comfortable that the activities are being handled in an appropriate way.

Mr. Reid: That did not really provide me with any level of comfort knowing that the position has been vacant for some time.

Can the minister tell me why you have eliminated the chief technical officer's position in a department that obviously affects each and every one of us in the province in the buildings that we either work or live in?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told this was an administrative position that was vacant, and the workload has been redistributed amongst a number of other staff.

Mr. Reid: How long had it been vacant?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told the position has been vacant for upwards of nine months.

Mr. Reid: Is there a policy within the department or that is provided to the minister, perhaps through cabinet, that says that you have vacancies within a department or jobs that come vacant that those jobs are held open pending further decision? Is there a policy that the government has with respect to vacancies?

Mr. Gilleshammer: No, there is no policy.

Mr. Reid: Then if you have had that job vacant for that long, it leaves me to wonder why you had a person in that job, what role they were playing in the past when there was someone in that capacity. Can you explain why you have decided to amalgamate those functions into other people that are remaining employed in that particular department?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I guess, there are a couple of explanations for changes within the department. I spoke in my opening comments about the restructuring that took place within the department and where we collapsed four separate identities into three; secondly, changes in technology allow departments to administer their activities in a different way, so it was the belief of our senior managers that these functions could be handled through the restructuring and that these activities would carry on in that way.

Mr. Reid: So you have two positions that are vacant and you have reduced two other people in the department, and you are going to fill one of those vacancies by a person that is going to be returning to work within a month or so. Is that accurate?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, yes, one of the people, I believe it was the boiler inspector, who was on a leave is going to be back before the end of this month, within the next week or two weeks.

Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me, on the managerial position--it is under mechanical engineering--is there administrative support secretarial attached to that particular job?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, there is shared support in that area.

Mr. Reid: When you say shared support, you say like in a pool or is a person assigned to support the manager?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am informed it is a pool situation.

Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me, am I understanding this correctly? When he has reduced the Other Expenditures--and I am going to try and collapse these two, Mr. Chairman, into both to try and move this along. He has reduced some of the expenditures. Is that because there is elimination of the positions, and that is why you see there is less of the other costs that are involved with respect to supplies and services, communication, et cetera? Is that why you have been able to cut back?

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Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I am told by the department that there is less accommodation space required, and as a result, less resources are devoted to that area.

Mr. Reid: I drew this to the previous Minister of Labour's attention last year during Estimates with respect to elevator inspections, and it had been drawn to my attention that we had, in the city of Winnipeg here at least, elevators operating without current certificates. Can you tell me what process has been occurring to correct that situation and whether or not all the certificates that are currently signed by this Minister of Labour or his predecessor are current?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairman, I am told that the department is comfortable that the inspections have been done, and that the certificates are delivered to the building managers and building owners. There may be occasions when they are not immediately put up; that may not be their top priority, but the department informs me that they are comfortable the inspections are done on the appropriate basis.

Mr. Reid: Well, it had been drawn to my attention that--and this is going back about a month now--there were elevators that were in public housing here in the city of Winnipeg that did not have current certificates. Now, one would think that in a government-owned facility at least we would have current certificates. I understand that there are a significant number of elevators that you need to ensure that the proper inspections are being done, and it is my understanding, at least it was explained to me last year by the Minister of Labour, that it is up to the building or the property owner to ensure that the elevators are inspected and that they are up to standards.

I guess I have to ask the question here, if we do not have certificates in place so that when the public uses those particular elevators, what is the purpose of the certificate if it is not to ensure that those elevators have been inspected?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I thank the member for the question. Certainly this is a very, very important function that staff members within our department perform, and if there are public buildings, public housing units where the member has had concerns expressed to him, if he would like to pass them on to myself or the department, we will certainly ensure, not only that the inspection has taken place, but that the managers are encouraged to get that certificate up.

Certainly most of these elevators are here in the city of Winnipeg. I am aware of probably one or two in my constituency, and they are inspected. We do hear the concerns and complaints when those elevators are not functioning.

I will just use one example. In Minnedosa, the Town View Manor is a beautiful six-storey facility that was built a number of years ago with one elevator. I think the elevator is 23 years old at this time, and when it is not functioning you have got elderly people, some of whom have been panelled for the personal care home, having to get assistance to get up and down six floors of stairs. It is not only not good for their health, it is almost impossible. There have been times when those people have had to be carried up or down so that they could get to their living quarters. It is not a shortage of inspections. It is, I suppose, capital requirements that are necessary to remedy the situation, but in a facility like that where only one elevator exists and where people do not have the energy or the health anymore to climb the stairs it is very critical. There have been times when some of those people have had to be housed overnight in other facilities because they simply cannot climb those six floors.

It is an important function that our department plays in inspecting these elevators, and I take the member's concerns very seriously. I am sure that in the fine constituency of Transcona there would be many, many elevators which would come to the member's attention from time to time. I know that, well, the member always checks them. That is good because they are vital in those facilities. I know that I have at least one elevator in my constituency and it does not work very well.

So we will endeavour to, if the member gives us the addresses, the places, be sure that they are inspected appropriately and that the appropriate certificate is delivered to them. If they need a little encouragement to change the certificate, we would even do that to be sure that not only does the elevator work but that it gives people like yourself and the residents there the comfort to know that in fact an inspection has taken place.

Mr. Reid: That is fair. I thank the minister, and I will endeavour to get that information over to the department.

Before I leave this section, Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the department for their efforts with respect to the furnace vent pipes and the notification that you put out to the public. It was important. We had a similar issue a number of years ago with respect to the Flame-Master furnaces where notices were made available, but I do not think as widely distributed as this information was.

I find that, at least in my own community, I cannot speak for others, people are very receptive and have indicated their pleasure with respect to at least knowing, so that if you have those furnaces that use that particular type of equipment that they can at least provide for the safety of their families. So I thank the department for providing that information to the public, and I think if there is an opportunity perhaps, for myself at least, and I do not know if the minister is contemplating this in his own constituency, but advising the public directly by direct mail, because sometimes the notices do not always get read if they are in the newspapers, where a direct mail piece--and I know the department cannot undertake to send it to every home in the province--but perhaps each of us as MLAs can undertake to inform our own constituencies of those safety matters.

I have no other questions in this area.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am pleased that the member acknowledges the efforts of the department there. It can be a very serious situation of safety within the home, and it is often kind of difficult to get everybody's attention on something like that. All of us get a lot of letters and flyers and brochures that come into our homes. I found particularly the rural newspapers did an excellent job, and I know the member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) would certainly subscribe to that, that rural newspapers probably ran the story twice to be sure that they drew it to the attention of citizens in those communities.

But the member for Transcona does flag an issue there is how you communicate with people when you are not absolutely sure who has the faulty vents, and you have to do sort of a blanket coverage and rely on the media to inform those people without alarming them and frightening them. We also, of course, had the concern that there were companies who were coming to town to fix this for everybody too, and we did not want our concerns being used as a springboard for someone to change everybody's furnace pipes and do work that perhaps was not required. So there is always that question of communication; there is always that question of balance. But certainly the member for Transcona is absolutely right in saying the department took this very seriously, and we attempted in a number of ways to bring that issue to the attention of the public and see that the public was aware of it.

Then, of course, you are always competing with other activities that are happening within the city, within the province at the same time. In this case, it happened to be an impending flood. It was not always easy to get somebody's attention on it, but the department was, I think, extremely vigilant in drawing this to my attention and to the attention of the public and designing ways to get that message out there. So I join with my honourable friend in congratulating the department in doing a good job on this.

Mr. Reid: Mr. Chairperson, I have no questions under 2. (b).

* (1700)

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): 11.2.(b) Mechanical and Engineering (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,489,000--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $395,900--pass.

The hour being 5 p.m., time for private members' hour, committee rise.