Madam Speaker: I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the loge to my left where we have this afternoon Councillor John Angus, Speaker of City Council and former member for St. Norbert.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I am requesting leave of the House to adjust the Estimates sequence for Room 255 tabled on May 12 so that the following Estimates will be considered in the following order: First, Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote; second, Industry, Trade and Tourism; third, Sport; and the remaining Estimates in the order listed.

Madam Speaker: Is there leave to adjust the Estimates sequence for Room 255 tabled on May 12 so that the following Estimates will be considered in the following order: Firstly, Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote; secondly, Industry, Trade and Tourism; and thirdly, Sport; and the remaining Estimates in the order listed. [agreed]

Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I am also requesting leave for the Standing Committee on Public Accounts and the Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections to sit as previously scheduled on the morning of Thursday, May 15, while the House is sitting.

Madam Speaker: Is there leave for the Standing Committee on Public Accounts and the Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections to sit as previously scheduled on the morning of Thursday, May 15, while the House is sitting? [agreed]

Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Motion agreed to.

When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 1.(b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 45 of the Estimates book.

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Can we get clarification as to how the amendment to the Estimates plays into our Estimates book. There was a supplementary amendment which was tabled in the House. I am not quite sure where the differences are, so maybe that could be highlighted.

Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): Before I address that question, did you want me to provide the information about affirmative action? I think I was going to provide detail before the day ended yesterday, and I would be pleased to do that if that is your wish. I note you are nodding agreement it is.

I had indicated that we had an affirmative action plan in place, and the new three-year affirmative action plan is a three-year plan, 1997 to the year 2000, and it includes department-wide objectives and individual branch plans and commitments. The department-wide objectives include: All managers' and supervisors' position descriptions will include responsibility statements for affirmative action, and performance appraisals for all managers and supervisors will assess performance respecting affirmative action policies and plans. All branches will submit semiannual progress reports on affirmative action in their respective areas, and these reports will be compiled and circulated in the department.

Specifically with respect to women in Energy and Mines, the percent of total staff who are women as of March 1997 is 43.95 percent. With respect to women in management, as you did point out yesterday, in terms of senior management there is an absence of females, but in the middle-management area 21.42 percent are female. That is three of 14, and I might say that is an increase of one from the previous two of 14 or 14.29 percent. With respect to women in summer positions, as of May 12, 1997, 45 percent are women.

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The strategies in the three-year affirmative action plan I referred to at the outset, which address women participation and/or development, are as follows: (1) anticipated vacancies identify specific recruitment strategies, including outreach recruitment through agencies such as the Immigrant Women's Employment agency and the executive development for women program; (2) the specific commitment to employ development plans towards more senior positions, both technical and managerial. This includes 100 percent educational assistance; (3) formal commitment to upgrade skills for women through formal training programs, on-the-job training, field visits, participation on committees, secondments, et cetera; (4) development of a management training program for existing and future managers with Energy and Mines. The program will include assessment tools and training plans and mechanisms addressing both existing management training needs and those for nonsupervisory staff who aspire to develop towards managerial positions.

Ms. Mihychuk: I appreciate the minister's response to my final question. It raises the issue of progress that we have seen, or the lack of progress that we have seen in the department. The department has undergone some downsizing, so it is very difficult, and I understand that, to promote and change some of the statistics. One of the other areas that is of concern to me is the number of aboriginal staff that we have in the department. There is a close link between Northern Affairs. The minister himself is responsible for Northern Affairs and the Department of Energy and Mines.

Can the minister tell us how many First Nations representatives we have employed in the department?

Mr. Newman: The figures are, for 1996-97, 2.55 percent for Energy and Mines.

Ms. Mihychuk: I would ask and urge the minister to look at this as a possible vehicle for providing training and access for aboriginal people. The summer positions available are a good opportunity to provide hands-on experience both to women and aboriginal students. Having had some experience in the industry, these groups sometimes face barriers getting employment in industry, and government can be a useful vehicle in providing that initial training and actual hands-on experience. So I would encourage the department to look well beyond the 45 percent target. Perhaps the department could commit to a 75 percent target by making an outreach and providing that first step for women and First Nations people so that then they would have that experience and be more available for industry. So I would encourage the department to take much more significant steps in terms of affirmative action, and I hope we can count on the minister's guidance in this area.

Mr. Newman: There certainly is a commitment to improving that percentage, and some progress is immediate in that I agree with your idea about summer employment as being an entry opportunity. Three opportunities were offered to aboriginals, and two aboriginals accepted those positions. That is an avenue we realize.

Part of this is an issue of training of aboriginal people as well. Another part of it is an attitude of the aboriginal people towards working in this particular industry. Because we have become, I think, quite well informed about the need to address those issues, we have the commitment in the throne speech in our desire to partner with the aboriginal people in this province and our commitment to training of aboriginal people. All is part of the momentum behind this commitment to improve these statistics in the department. We are also very conscious of the quality of the people that are there now. We are looking at taking advantage of opportunities but not at the expense of quality people, of course, performing in the service of the province.

However, we are looking forward to a major reaching out by the aboriginal people to become more involved in the mining exploration and mining development and service to mining in the province of Manitoba in a whole variety of ways. It is simply a natural relationship given the importance of mining to the North and given the importance of mining to the province. The indications are that there is an increasing desire of the aboriginal people to get involved, and that means whether it is teaching in schools or the way parents treat children, elders communicate to their people.

All of those have probably the most important impacts on the orientation of those young people to particular kinds of workforces. So we are overcoming a lot of views and some of the political views are in effect negative towards--I am speaking of aboriginal politics' views are negative towards mining and speak of it as being exploiting and so forth. All of those thoughts are matters that impact on the willingness, desire, aspirations of the aboriginal people.

I feel optimistic that we are going to have a greater respect for and appreciation for what mining contributes to the province and more involvement of aboriginal people over time, and with all of that we hope our department will be an example for the rest of the industry and the successful aboriginal candidates will be ambassadors. I note that one of the great ambassadors for aboriginal people in our government is a former employee of Energy and Mines, and that is Clayton Sandy, who was a cartographer. He is a role model for others as a civil servant in this province now with the Department of Education and Training.

Ms. Mihychuk: It seems to me that we are in a natural position to maybe move on the minister's commitment to take a leadership role, and that is with the community of Cross Lake, which is looking to partner on a mineral development there at Pipestone. That may be an opportunity to partner, and I wonder if the minister would consider a scholastic grant program to encourage young people to enter the field of geology.

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Mr. Newman: If you have any specific ideas in relation to that, certainly pass them on, anything that will encourage, induce the people in the Cross Lake area on the Cross Lake Reserve and the Cross Lake northern community to become involved in what appears to be an exciting opportunity right adjacent to, and Cross Lake is welcomed. There is, I think, a great opportunity for the local leadership in that community, for the schools in that community, for the employees, the people that are participating in the joint venture with Gossan Resources. I think all of those people can play a role in encouraging the greater participation of the people in that area, and they could also provide some very specific ideas to us as to what the impediments are to them getting involved. We have had involvement of aboriginal people in our prospecting programs, and that seems to be a place where--you are right, so to speak, on the ground floor of mining, and that is where it all starts.

The other thing that should not be forgotten is getting ready, if that is a mine in waiting, titanium mine in waiting there, at some point, if there is a readiness to provide all the basic services to contribute to the successful functioning of a mine, everything from transportation to accommodation to construction to all the different services that are needed by people who are going to work in that area. There is an unlimited number of things you provide to a major undertaking that could develop in that sort of place. So just developing a capacity to work in that sort of environment would be useful.

The department has already committed to a training program for Cross Lake once a mine is confirmed, so we are looking forward to fulfilling something tangible which can be measured by actual job statistics, and then we could have some success stories which can be passed on as well.

So right now that opportunity in Cross Lake is probably the best unrealized development at the moment. I might say in Bissett, the Rea Gold site, Hollow Lake Reserve members are beneficiaries of the presence of that mine, and the employment rates in that reserve are well over 50 percent thanks to their participation in the mine, and that still is not up to capacity. We are looking at something in the order of 242 jobs there, I believe. It is very interesting. The owners of that company, the management of that company, one of them being one of the owners, met with me and suggested ideas for entrepreneurial involvement of the aboriginal people. One of the suggestions was getting involved in transportation of workers to the site, because it would be far more sensible to have a van or something to bring everyone together. It is more cost-effective, and someone could make some money at it. Those sorts of ideas, the local communities have to get their heads around and take advantage of it.

Ms. Mihychuk: The opportunities are clearly available, and, again, I look for next year when we see what new initiatives are going to be forward in terms of affirmative action and, again, urge the department to be vigilant and much, much more dramatic in their goals and provide those opportunities, provide the first step.

I know that sometimes you have to take the risk or take others that maybe in terms of the whole opportunity of staffing you might not take the best field staff available, but you are providing an opportunity for those who might otherwise not have an opportunity at all.

So I do ask you to be generous and provide that opportunity to women, and I guess we also do not see a whole lot of other ethnic groups in geology, so I would encourage visible minority participation, but, first and foremost, aboriginal people have generally not been participative. I think the door is there, and, hopefully, we can get more involved.

I do not have any further questions on affirmative action, so I would like to get into the Estimates and hope to conclude today on the department.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): 23.1.(b)(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $271,200.

Ms. Mihychuk: I just ask the department to clarify the amendment that we got to be included with the Estimates, please.

Mr. Newman: Maybe the best thing is to do it in sequence. I think the first amendment was with respect to page 11. There was a transfer of one staff year and salaries from the Petroleum and Energy branch to the Marketing branch. That required changes to be made to the right-hand column of the Estimates of Expenditure for 1996-97, if you refer to the columns on the right-hand side, the last two columns on pages 11, 23, 25 and 27.

The reason for that is in preparing this year's supplement, staff anticipated that the transfer of one staff year and associated salary and benefits from Petroleum and Energy to Marketing would be included as part of the '96-97 adjusted vote. Our supplement was therefore printed with this change incorporated.

However, in the 1997 Manitoba Estimates of Expenditure for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1998, the transfer is shown as an increase for Marketing and a decrease for Petroleum and Energy. We have therefore revised our Estimates supplement pages to correspond with the official printed Main Estimates, and these changes do not affect the total proposed Expenditure Estimates for '97-98 for the Department of Energy and Mines.

The other change is with respect to the Minister's Salary. The staff recommended we add an explanation at the top of page 19 to reflect the fact that the salary increase is shared between Energy and Mines and my other department, Northern Affairs.

The other point is that the changes that I have referred to with respect to pages 11, 23, 25 and 27 do not affect the current year but only the previous year, the year just completed.

Ms. Mihychuk: I can see that Marketing is increased to 17.26. Petroleum and Energy has also gone up, I understand from this--no, has gone down, right, has gone down one position, but the totals actually are quite significantly different at the bottom of the line. If I look at the number of staff, there is 147 versus 155, and the total amount is also quite different.

Mr. Newman: That is because of the assay lab being contracted out.

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Ms. Mihychuk: The decision not to show any staffing to the Industry Support Programs has been ongoing for several years, I think. We have not seen any staff positions accordingly appropriate. What is the staffing appropriation for those programs? How many people are involved in the administration and the monitoring of the Industry Support Programs, and why do we not see them associated with this area?

Mr. Newman: I am advised that the Industry Support Programs are provided through approximately two full-time staff equivalents. Those staff equivalents are found within the branches of Marketing, Petroleum and Energy, and Mines. I am talking about equivalents; I am not talking about two human beings who are doing those tasks full time. It could be sprinkled within those branches.

Ms. Mihychuk: I am prepared to move on 23.1(b).

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): 23.1. Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $271,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $75,500.

Shall the item pass?

Ms. Mihychuk: This is the supplementary expenditures for the Executive Support, is that correct? [interjection] Go ahead.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): 23.1.(b) (2) Other Expenditures $75,500--pass.

Then 23.1.(c) Financial and Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $629,300.

Shall the item pass?

Ms. Mihychuk: I try to keep up, but I am not quite sure if--are we on page 23 now?

Mr. Newman: On 21.

Ms. Mihychuk: We are on 21. Oh, yes, because that is not amended. Financial and Administrative--we actually see in this section a decrease in wages in one area. I am assuming that has been a change in staffing, perhaps a--[interjection] My blue book. Oh, that was last year. Sorry, I was looking at last year. It looks like we got somebody new, and they have maybe moved up in the ranks. So there have been no significant differences. There is some difference in supplies and services and in grants and transfer payments. Can the minister please elaborate those changes?

Mr. Newman: I do not see those.

Ms. Mihychuk: I take it all back. The way this is going, we might be here for another week. I have no questions on Admin Services.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): 23.1.(c)(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $629,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $150,600--pass.

Moving on to 23.2. Energy and Mineral Resources (a) Marketing (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $811,400.

Ms. Mihychuk: This is a growing branch, and we have seen a number of people brought into this section. Perhaps the minister could outline the goals and direction of the Marketing branch as he sees it now.

Mr. Newman: I am sorry, you are asking how I see the Marketing branch now.

Ms. Mihychuk: The goals.

Mr. Newman: I see them very positively. I see them realizable. I see them broadly supported by the community and the industry as would be indicated by the, I think, very positive story in the Winnipeg Free Press of Tuesday, May 13, headed "Staking claim on the future: Mine exploration rises as incentive plan kicks in." Bill Redekop in that article I felt captured the kind of positive attitude that I was talking about yesterday in relation to the mining industry.

I think it was not very notable when the article with the headline that I stated begins: "How times change. Two decades ago, mining exploration was virtually dead in Manitoba.

"The New Democrats, under then-premier Ed Schreyer, passed legislation committing government to pay half of mining exploration costs. The catch was government got to keep 50 per cent of any profits if minerals were found.

"Despite the NDP's best intentions to keep mining revenues from Manitobans, the plan bombed. Mining companies bailed out. Investment dried up. Manitoba resource stocks became about as popular as pet rocks at a flea market.

"'It gave Manitoba a bad name in the mining industry for the next 20 years,' said Bruce Dunlop, a veteran independent exploration geologist in Manitoba.'"

It states also: "A change in government attitude and programs like the Manitoba Mining Exploration Assistance program (MEAP) are credited with the turnaround."

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I cite that simply to demonstrate that it does appear that the community and the industry both feel we are on the right track. I think that is a very good sign, because when there is confidence out there in the industry and in the community, that motivates exploration, attracts others to come from other jurisdictions to do business here. It gets the message out that the climate has changed. Also, an article like that is like a third-party testimonial, so you can use that to help us at our involvement in shows in other jurisdictions. We use it at our own show in Manitoba. So it is almost like a rating by a bond rating firm about the state of the health of an economy and a jurisdiction. I think this is very helpful to me in demonstrating that we are on the right track with Marketing.

The other measure that I have found as a very useful indicator is that now, to this day, over 30 new junior mining companies have begun exploration in Manitoba since the 1995 MEAP program in the new form came into being. The other statistic that I have in my head is that we have about 98 MEAP-supported companies involved in projects doing exploration in the province pursuant to those companies' involvement and the support of the program.

Marketing is not just a function of the individuals who come under the branch. It is a marketing of everyone involved in the department. It is part of my function, part of the deputy minister's. It is what you radiate, in one sense. You are partly responsible, too. You will either send out a positive or negative impact as a member of the opposition in relation to mining, as will the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) or the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) and Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen). The message that you send out of support for some of the things that are happening can contribute to the success of the mining industry of this province as well.

Ms. Mihychuk: Well, it was, I would say, an overall positive article in the paper. We always like to trumpet mining in Manitoba, and, as I have said before, I congratulate the minister in particular, both himself and the previous minister, for going out and reaching out to the industry. However, I would argue with some of the premises in that article, given that we have not seen a dramatic increase in exploration over the last three or four years as we had anticipated, again raising the question of the effectiveness of MEAP. I believe that the goal for exploration in the '96-97 year was close to $45 million as a target, and we did not see that occurring. I am pleased that we saw $40 million invested in Manitoba's economy, and that is a positive. When the goal and the rhetoric that the minister talks about, the previous minister in particular, make Manitoba the best place in Canada to invest in exploration, we have a long, long, long way to go. We in fact have seen a fairly stable investment profile in Manitoba. Are there new strategies that are going to be used to in fact see an increase in exploration in Manitoba?

Mr. Newman: I think the elements of the marketing plan we have are to attract the companies. We continue to create an environment with changes here and there, and we had a change in our budget, actually probably several changes in the budget introduced by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) this year that contributed to the competitiveness of the environment. Then they of course have to, with that kind of backup, be successful in coming up with a deposit which is significant enough that it warrants production, given whatever the external circumstances at the time, the commodity pricing and the volume of product, the location of the deposit, all of these sorts of things that affect whether something will be developed.

I think it is wise not to get carried away. After all, exploration is an indicator, but it is the results that count and fortunately we do have mines that have come into production over the past few years which I think I have referred to earlier and we have another one which I have also referred to that is coming on stream this summer, and that is the Rea Gold in Bissett. But we are always, in this business, anxious about our existing major players, and we always know that Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting, with their enormous effort to find replacement deposits that are going to be feasible and competitive to mine, are challenged, and Inco, given what we described yesterday as the higher cost of production here relative to what the cost might be in Newfoundland. All of these situations never allow us to become complacent or comfortable. We just have to keep pushing and keep, I think, focused.

That is what appeals very much to me in the approach that is being taken by the Marketing part of our Energy and Mines. It is focused and it is persistent, and all indications are that the first part of it, the attraction of exploration companies and new ones with hopefully some creativity, some imagination will enhance the chances of major deposits being found. But I will not challenge you; I think it is wise to be skeptical.

I do correct--I am not aware of any goal expressed in any plan or commitment of the department for $45 million in terms of increase in mineral exploration for last year. My understanding was that the goal is a multiyear goal based on the 1993 base-line, as I stated at the outset of this Estimates session yesterday. The base-line in 1993 was $27.4 million. Yes, it went to $40.5 million in 1994 and $32.6 million in 1995 and $40.1 million in 1996. We want to exceed that in 1997, and by the year 2000 we want to be over the $40 million. We certainly hope to do better than that, but those are the realistic focused kinds of goals that are realizable, we believe, with persistent effort.

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Ms. Mihychuk: The department has decided to increase the number of staff in the Marketing section. Can the minister explain why the department chose to increase the area of Marketing? I would I would challenge perhaps not the other branches that are out there actually doing the work rather than producing the pamphlets, talking about it. We are moving away from the hands on to a much more administrative and sales component. Indeed, I believe that the strategy for moving into the Superior Province is one that should be commended. The professional people that you are putting into Marketing are not the ones that are going to be doing the hands on.

Can the minister explain the strategy for expansion of this section of the department?

Mr. Newman: The additional staff year to Marketing came from the Energy Management Branch which, as was pointed out earlier, was combined into the new Petroleum and Energy branch as part of last year's Estimates process. During the course of the '96-97 years, it was determined that the workload of the position had reduced considerably and as a result the incumbent was assigned new duties. It was determined, the overall staffing priorities for the department having been reviewed, that there was a high priority for additional resources in the Marketing branch, which had arisen from the response by the community to our new mining investment strategies.

The specific tasks involved in that set of needs included web site development assistance with the annual Mining and Minerals Convention, which we hope will grow even more this year, and administrative support for the Mineral Exploration Assistance Program. Accordingly, the staff year was transferred as part of our '97-98 Estimates, and presently the staff year is being used on a temporary basis to provide assistance to the MEAP co-ordinator.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister outline again what positions are involved with MEAP? What industry support people are there in the department? We have just heard that the increased position in Marketing is a support person to these Industry Support Programs. We have the Potash Project. We have a number of different projects. We have the petroleum grant.

In addition, the department was sternly criticized by the Auditor because of the previous program that was modified into the MEAP because of the measures of accountability that were in fact lacking in the department. How is the department now monitoring the allocations of taxpayers' money? Who is going out in the field to check these projects? Are they included in the minister's estimate of two people involved in these projects and, perhaps, given the amount of money involved in these Industry Support Programs, over $4 million, I question whether we have the program of accountability that a program of this nature needs?

Mr. Newman: At the present time, the expenditures are audited internally by the department and an auditing process involving the Provincial Auditor to give that degree of independence is in the process of being formulated to engender the kind of public confidence that you are talking about and also to provide a double check.

In addition, there are, and I was just talking about it with Art Ball this morning, spot checks that are done by our geology field staff with respect to the explorations pursuant to the MEAP investments.

Ms. Mihychuk: Has the department assigned a geological staffperson to actually go and do field visits and investigate these investment proposals?

Mr. Newman: I really have nothing to add to the answer. I did question whether or not we have experienced any problems in relation to the quality of work relative to the commitments that have been made in the program. This has not been a problem, and that is why we do the due diligence that has been described so far. There is certainly a certain reliance on the integrity, the people who file the reports. Those reports, of course, are scrutinized, and then there are the spot checks as well.

Ms. Mihychuk: We have seen this department in fact be sternly criticized, as I said before, by the Provincial Auditor for those very reasons. There were not identifiable people who were responsible for going out and checking where tax money was being invested, whether the programs were well thought out, whether they were actually implemented, what were the results, so I am not satisfied quite frankly with the accountability measures that the department has taken in that venture. Which geologists in particular are going to be responsible for the field site? What follow-up is there after that field site, and are they even aware that they are out there to do an inspection of some type? Many geologists visit other geological field operations. Is there a formal process of investigation? I think the minister needs to ensure that public money that is going into these programs is invested soundly. Even greater suspicion has recently been raised because of the Bre-X situation. We want to be sure that investments are what they say they are. We want to be sure that the projects are real, that they are in the field, that there is action out there in the Superior Province or wherever our money is being invested.

I would call on the department to formulate a clear-cut accountability program. Not only is it good enough to have glossy pamphlets and encourage everyone to come here, we must ensure that our money is spent wisely and that ultimately we will see what we all hope to see, increased exploration, new mines and more jobs for Manitobans.

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Mr. Newman: I, of course, will not disagree with the emphasis on the responsibility in terms of spending the public's money prudently and making sure that it is invested as required. I am very interested in your ideas with respect to ways that that might be done besides the involvement of the public Auditor they have discussed and perhaps putting more time into the inspections. For example, you referred to Bre-X. I would be very interested in knowing whether you would support, for example, a condition that anyone who files a report with respect to assessment work or whatever had to be a certified or a professional geologist or a certified technician, technologist. That is an area which is emerging. It is something that I welcome your ideas on, and I would be very interested in your position on that. Is there a need to professionalize and demand the use of professionals to perform those kinds of functions, knowing full well that that means that some people who now do it would no longer be able to do it, and all of those kinds of implications? I can assure you that is an area that I am conscious of and looking at. I welcome your thoughts on that.

Ms. Mihychuk: I have had the feeling that given the situation of Bre-X, we have seen the repercussions in all aspects of industry and investment and more locally with the auditor's report a couple of years ago on the department. I believe that it is incumbent on the government to ensure that our money is wisely spent, and I do believe that a program of, also, field inspections would be warranted there. We do have inspectors in the construction industry. We have inspectors in labour. It is perhaps timely to consider different approaches to ensure that what we see in a dynamic industry is validated. We probably have to go further steps than we have in the past, because of the cloud that has hung over geological operations because of Bre-X, and there is a certain onus on us now to prove our credibility and our accountability. I think that the minister would be well placed to investigate those various measures. I would have to give it more thought as to more specific ways of ensuring that accountability.

Mr. Newman: I certainly do invite your thoughts on that, because one way of going beyond either government supervision, inspection kind of roles, and going beyond audits from within government, is to put responsibility on professional associations who are there to protect the public interest. They play a role which does not cost the taxpayers of Manitoba directly. They do it as a true profession, having a privilege as a profession, because they are acting in the public interest, so in the same way we do not have government go out and question architects' and engineers' certifications. One way that you could address the issue that you have raised is to have the professional qualification as a condition of filing certain reports so then they are accountable to the public and to their own profession in that kind of fashion. So I definitely do invite your thoughts on that as the geological profession evolves and as the technicians and technologists evolve into more self-regulating kinds of formats.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): 23.2.(a) Marketing (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $811,400--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $437,200--pass.

23.2.(b) Petroleum and Energy (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,254,200.

Shall the item pass?

Ms. Mihychuk: We are now in the Petroleum and Energy branch. Is that correct? [interjection] Good. Can the minister explain what impact the change in staffing will have on this branch and what area has lost a position?

Mr. Newman: This is the position I had referred to earlier, the position from Petroleum and Energy to Marketing.

Ms. Mihychuk: What, more specifically, was the role of that individual? Was it in the Petroleum or Energy side of it?

Mr. Newman: I would sum up the description of the package of tasks performed by the individual as being a public relations function.

Ms. Mihychuk: The department used to be structured that petroleum was separate from energy. Was this position associated with petroleum or energy?

Mr. Newman: It was associated with energy.

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Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister inform me as to the staffing levels in the Energy component? If we look back, perhaps ten years, what were the staff numbers in the Energy branch, at that time a very strong and vibrant branch? I think we have seen some fairly dramatic changes. Can the minister indicate what type of staffing changes we have seen?

Mr. Newman: Eight in Energy, not including senior management.

Ms. Mihychuk: Eight is the number of positions presently in the branch or eight is the number that there were 10 years ago?

Mr. Newman: Eight now.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister, for the record, indicate how many staff people there were in the Energy branch in 1988?

Mr. Newman: No one at this table has the answer to that question at this moment. Do you want us to research that and get back to you?

Ms. Mihychuk: Well, I think it would be a useful exercise for the minister if that information could be accumulated. In 1988, there was a strong program of energy conservation, energy efficiency, workshops, outreach, and there was a great deal of emphasis on energy management, energy strategies, and we have seen this section decrease dramatically. I would not be surprised if we had over 20 people perhaps in that section and now we see eight, and knowing that the minister is committed to energy efficiency, energy sustainability and looking for other options, I think it would be a useful exercise to look at the history of this branch and the priority that has been given to the Energy sector. Perhaps a re-evaluation of the government's commitment to energy programs may be warranted after there is an evaluation of that sector.

Mr. Newman: There are always two ways of looking at reductions in the size of the civil service, and the positive side, of course, is the taxpayers are not paying as much money to support people doing work in the public interest, and there is always a need for governments to prioritize. That is why it is not often very fruitful to look back and look at numbers of employees in given areas. It is probably more helpful to look at the quality of service being rendered and by whom in a modern world.

With respect to the approach of this government to many things, there are attempts to empower others and to educate others so that government does not do a lot of things itself that it used to do. Of course, that supports contracting-out situations as well. It supports allowing private enterprise to do things that formerly were done by government.

So, having said that, it is clear what the priorities are of the Energy and Mines area, and sometimes also there are things that are being done by other departments, whether it is in Environment or Natural Resources, that might have been determined, or from time to time are determined, to be really duplications, or certain things could be better done in another department than ours. All of those are the kinds of considerations that go into determining the workforce, the numbers involved in carrying out particular responsibilities of government. In terms of Energy, there is no question there are some compelling challenges that we have in that area, that we are conserving our own human resources internally and making a lot of demands in that area. We, at the moment, for example, are interested in expanding in co-operation with other departments and with the external community certain parts of our Energy Branch that are related to the overall sustainable development philosophy of our government.

You cannot look at the department in isolation. Many things that were done by the department are, for example, done and financed by the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund. Many initiatives that come within Industry, Trade and Tourism, for example, in some ways are related to the Energy Branch. Having said all of that, we will get you the information as to what the employment level was 10 years ago.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister explain why in the original publication of the Estimates we see 28 staff members in the '96-97, and then it has been changed to 29 staff years in the '96-97 to be reduced down to 28? Were there actually 29 staff years in that branch?

Mr. Newman: This is the issue we covered in the amendment. This is one of the pages affected by that amendment. So in fact with the revision, you might be looking at the unamended document, I am not sure. The figures have not changed, '96-97 and '97-98. The figures have not changed in those years. The document that I am looking at which is the amending document, page 27, just reflects the 17 to 16 and $701,000 to $657,000. There is no change other than the one we have already talked about.

Ms. Mihychuk: Just looking at the '96-97 departmental Estimates, we see that this is the same branch that saw a reduction of six members from the year before. At that time I believe that I was told there were eight people left in the Energy Branch, so I would assume that the person that got moved was from Petroleum--no. So there must have been nine left. That seems somewhat confusing. How many people do we have working in that branch?

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Mr. Newman: I answered the question that there were eight individuals in the Energy Branch, plus Bob Dubreuil, who is to my left here, so there are nine people in total.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister explain the changes that we see to the Communications budget? A lot of what the Energy group or sector did in the past was try to reach out to the community on various initiatives. Is this going to impact on some of those initiatives?

Mr. Newman: The reduction of the $10,000 respecting Communications is due to reduced printing costs as a result of providing information on the Internet plus reduction in MTS line costs between Winnipeg and Virden.

Ms. Mihychuk: Well, that is a positive aspect of the Net serving a useful purpose. Speaking of the Net, is the department on line and is the staff using e-mail and corresponding to the minister, and are we technologically up to date?

Mr. Newman: Yes.

Ms. Mihychuk: One of the interesting stories is that I had an opportunity actually to be familiar with a report that had been done, using a certain computer language, and it actually took an amazingly long time to translate this document. So sometimes technology can be a huge barrier in efficiency. So I do hope that the department is moving along and is using the technology more expediently. That report actually has been waiting for production for over five years. So technology can be a plus and it can be a negative at the same time.

Mr. Newman: I extend an invitation to you to do a tour of the premises and take a look at the technology that they have in operation, and see how well utilized it is. I think the staff are deservedly proud of their accomplishments. The quality of the equipment, I think, is also something that I was very impressed by and I think the branch is quite proud of as well.

Ms. Mihychuk: There is also a fairly large drop in the line item labelled Supplies and Services from $308,000 to $233,000. Can the minister tell us where the savings are being incurred in that line item?

Mr. Newman: The difference of $75,300 is a reduction in the computer system development associated to the Manitoba Oil and Gas Well Information System of $41,400 and a reduction in outsourcing of energy-related services as a result of now being fully staffed of $33,900.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): 23.2. (b) Petroleum and Energy (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,254,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $489,700--pass.

23.2. (c) Mines (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,370,200.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister update us as to the number of claims and other mining activity in Manitoba?

Mr. Newman: With respect to mining recording, the total revenue collected from fees, rentals, royalties, taxes, security deposits and rehabilitation levies totalled $4,081,403.24. There were 692 mining claims recorded, five exploration permits, covering a total of 325,181 hectares; 46 quarry mineral leases were issued, 841casual quarry permits and 782 registration certificates for private pits and quarries.

Ms. Mihychuk: Is the minister concerned with the significant decrease that we have been seeing in terms of mining claims? In 1993, we had just over 2,000; in '94, we had 4,700; in '95, we saw a sharp decline, 1,100; and now we see again a decrease to 692.

Mr. Newman: I am advised that in one of those years in particular there were an exceptional number of claims registered for diamond exploration purposes and nothing ever came of it.

The other response, other than to confirm your facts, is that the best indication is the money spent on claims, not the number of claims that are registered.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister, for those years, outline the amount of money spent on mining claims? I have $4 million for '96, but I do not--unless I can access it perhaps in the annual report. Are we talking about the amount of money spent on the mining claims, or are we talking about the amount of exploration activity?

Mr. Newman: I certainly meant exploration activity.

Ms. Mihychuk: Okay, we have those numbers. We were talking about it, that it has been fairly stable for the last three years. In fact, that raises the question: How do we calculate how much money has been spent on exploration in Manitoba?

Mr. Newman: The information is collected by the department from the companies themselves. That information is used for Statistics Canada as well as for our own information. The forms are sent out by our department, and the companies then send those forms directly to Ottawa. We then rely on the information that comes from Ottawa for our own figures.

Ms. Mihychuk: This is related to their obligation to file for income tax purposes? Would that be associated with these submissions?

Mr. Newman: This is to satisfy the requests and requirements of Statistics Canada.

Ms. Mihychuk: So would it be fair to say that we rely on the exploration companies to submit a treatise of the work that they have conducted during the year, and they submit that? Again, what type of inspections and accountability does the department have to ensure that these reports are accurate?

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Mr. Newman: Have you got a suggestion as to how we might go about confirming those figures? I will entertain the suggestion, but at the moment the approach is essentially to trust those companies and the information they provide in that respect.

With respect to assessments of work done, of course, I have already indicated the involvement of the department in that respect.

Ms. Mihychuk: Well, clearly we see another area that perhaps needs some enhancement. I leave the issue with the minister and am going to be monitoring the situation as to what types of accountability procedures can be in place. Again, it is a matter of establishing that the claims are actually valid.

(Mr. Ed Helwer, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Manitobans do want to know how much exploration there has been in Manitoba, and I am sure that the minister wants to be able to confidently respond that the exploration actually occurred, where it occurred and the results. It may mean that the department may actually have to expand in terms of its duties in terms of inspection and regulation.

It is always nice to get a claim and get a little bit of revenue, but also the government has a responsibility to ensure that there are regulations and monitoring of those regulations. So I would appeal to the minister to look again for increased accountability to Manitobans, particularly now that we are marketing and helping exploration companies significantly and look for the government to tighten up on its role in terms of regulations and monitorings.

Mr. Newman: What I will do for you and for my own education is I will have my department indicate what the sanctions are for people that provide inaccurate information, because that is one of the things we have as a deterrent to the Bre-X sort of situation. We have laws which are enforced against criminal activity and against fraud, and we have a judicial system with integrity, and we have the rule of law here. But I will share with you and become acquainted myself with what the sanctions are for abusing the trust of the people of Manitoba by not filing accurate information, and I think your point is very well taken. It would be a good public education, I think, to be aware that there are consequences if there is not a provision of accurate information in that respect. The integrity of the industry depends on it because Statistics Canada figures are used Canada-wide to determine mining activity throughout the different jurisdictions. So I think your point is well made, and I will have them come up with that information, and I will want to be satisfied that, in my judgment, that is an adequate protection of the people.

Ms. Mihychuk: This is also the section of the department that deals with the construction industry, the use of aggregate and limestone and other construction quarrying deposits. This year we saw an enormous amount of aggregate being used for the flood. What are the reserves in the Winnipeg area in terms of sand and gravel?

Mr. Newman: There is lots of sand along the riverbanks. I do not have that information readily available. The general response is that it is significant, but you should know that the Geological Services branch is proposing to conduct an updated review of sand and aggregate resources in the Birds Hill area as part of the Capital Region study, and the study is to commence this year collaboratively with the Geological Survey of Canada as part of the quaternary mapping and hydrogeology programs planned for southern Manitoba. So this information in some reliable form may emerge, but I guess it would require research that we do not have readily at hand. This would be the source.

Ms. Mihychuk: Winnipeg and the Capital Region has been fairly fortunate to be fairly close to the Birds Hill aggregate deposit, and the people of Birds Hill were rightly alarmed when there was a certain threat that perhaps Birds Hill would be mined to provide aggregate for the roads and the construction industry in Winnipeg. That is our largest reserve in the Capital Region. It is presently designated a park, and I understand it has been protected in the process last year, but I also know that aggregate is hauled for a considerable distance from the Winnipeg area, perhaps up to 50-60 miles away, and it is trucked in. So I think that this is a sector that is not very glamorous. It does not sparkle and we cannot wear it, so it is not like the diamonds and gold, but it is worth a lot of money to the construction industry. I think it is imperative that the department have a handle on how much has been used, how much is available, and what the future resource management for the Capital Region is of this very strategic and important industrial mineral. The department has basically wound down its operation in this sector, and it has been quite a while since there has been an update in the reserves' management component.

I do not know if the project is going to be as comprehensive as I believe that it needs to be. I would ask that there be a serious review of the reserves and the availability of those reserves, because, as the minister knows, we have seen considerable expansion of Winnipeg beyond the Perimeter, and once you go east and north, you are indeed potentially sterilizing significant aggregate and quarry materials. So is the department planning to do a comprehensive review of the aggregate and quarry material available for Winnipeg's future?

Mr. Newman: I think you have given ample justification for the kind of review that I described that is going to be taking place.

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Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister perhaps give us in more detail what that project that he outlined which is a joint GSC project? These tend to be typically more academic and looking at geological environments. Is this going to be economic based, reserves based, or is this going to be a research project, and in what measure are we going to see the practical numbers that we need to look at a comprehensive land management program?

Mr. Newman: Rather than give you a brief summary in my terms, I would like to have Mr. McRitchie develop a memo to give you an explanation that is respectful of your very serious question in that respect and will give you, therefore, a ready understanding of the nature and scope and, hopefully, practicality of the work to be done.

Ms. Mihychuk: I appreciate that. There is some concern that I have that the geologist that I think is going to be involved in this project is also the same one that may be in the Superior Province doing some drift prospecting. Oh, I see that this is not the case. I do know that that individual was up in the North last year.

I guess my concern is that we try to spread our resources so far, then I am not sure that we are able to provide a complete survey that I am talking about. It has been a long time since we have had a comprehensive review of the aggregate resources in the Winnipeg region, for example. It is not a job that could be done by one crew in one summer. It is going to require a serious approach, I think, to looking at the material available and estimating the reserves potential.

Again, I think that when we saw the reaction of the residents in the Birds Hill area, that was typical and can be expected in the future. As long as we keep on seeing further development north of the city and east, we are going to rapidly lose those massive reserves. Birds Hill is a beautiful park and people in Winnipeg do not want to see it exploited for sand and gravel. Every year we see the city expanding. We are, I would argue, in a fairly serious situation up to now. It is not one that we really had to concentrate on, but given the rapid expansion of the city, it may be timely for a more concentrated approach, particularly for the Winnipeg region, and I thank the minister for addressing the department in this area.

Mr. Newman: Just to put the minds at rest of some of the people in that area, we have recently refused permits that would have involved encroachments on the park for doing quarry exploration work, because of the now very clear policy we have, the parks policy that we have. All of this is the balancing that goes on in doing sustainable development in the province. We have now, I think, a very good working relationship with a greater clarity with our Parks policy as it is. Certainly we, in our departments, are very sensitive to working out a balance, and that area is an area that deservedly has the protection that it has. I do not think there is a need to be insecure, but there should always be a vigilance. So I thank you for bringing that to our attention again.

Ms. Mihychuk: This is the section that is responsible for the regulation and the inspection of a lot of our acts: The Mines and Minerals Act, drilling regulation, mineral disposition, mineral lease regulation, quarry minerals regulation. Can the minister tell us how many people are involved in the inspection component?

Mr. Newman: Four inspectors plus a supervisor and a clerk.

Ms. Mihychuk: This is also the section that has taken on a new responsibility, one that I encourage and promote, and that is quarry rehabilitation. However, we have not seen an expansion in this area of staffing. Can the minister tell me if he believes that there is sufficient staff to carry on the existing duties, the expanding duties of quarry rehabilitation and the important role of monitoring and ensuring that the regulations are being complied with?

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Mr. Newman: The answer is that we are managing the challenge of having the quarry rehabilitation program in place with the addition of the fourth inspector. There were three and with the four plus a supervisor and clerk, I am assured by senior management that they are handling with that staffing the necessary tasks.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us how much money is in the quarry rehabilitation fund? This is money that has accrued through a levy placed on each tonne of aggregate or quarry material, and it is to be used for the rehabilitation purposes of quarries and pits.

Mr. Newman: The rehabilitation levy of 10 cents per metric tonne of aggregate production is collected from all aggregate producers on Crown as well as private lands, and the amount of that fund, called the Quarry Rehabilitation Reserve Account, is whatever the figure is resulting from taking $6.6 million having been collected in levies since 1992 and subtracting $2.5 million spent on 365 rehabilitation projects, leaving a balance of $4.1 million approximately.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us how much money is collected on average in a given year and how much is expended on rehabilitation projects in a year?

Mr. Newman: Given the figures I have given you over five years, it is about $1.1 million a year that is collected, and about $600,000 a year is being spent in recent years.

Ms. Mihychuk: Does the minister see this fund as a savings account for the department, or are we indeed looking at a comprehensive program of rehabilitation? We are looking at expending approximately 50 percent of the revenues brought in by this program.

I raise this again. I have had some concerns by industries suggesting that money is going into the fund, but it is not being expended at the same rate, and the minister's figures actually confirm that suggestion. Are there plans to enhance and increase the number of projects that are covered by this, or are we looking at a different plan altogether?

Mr. Newman: The answer is that so far the projects have for the most part been relatively small projects. There are two projects contemplated for this fiscal year which are over $200,000 each. I have questioned my own department on this issue, and all it takes is one major restoration, and we will all be grateful that the industry has had the foresight and the willingness to invest and that the government has had the foresight to facilitate this fund being put together all in the public interest of doing sustainable development and good environmental practices for the aesthetics and for the safety of Manitobans.

I am quite comfortable with the situation. I would be very concerned if the expenditures exceeded the revenue.

Ms. Mihychuk: Well, I am glad that the minister agrees with the project. I believe it was started during the New Democratic administration and was actually initiated by this government. They followed through on it and are moving. I just urge the minister that this was not intended to be a savings account for the department, that there are many, many mining scars that line our highways that we would like to see rehabilitated, that we would like to see tree screens put up and active projects and other innovative projects that maybe could be initiated.

I, again, look to the department for ensuring that we move along on this project. We have got $4.1 million that is available, and I understand that there are a couple of fairly significant projects, but, again, this was not intended to be a savings account, and we do have a huge number of pits and quarries that do need to be rehabilitated.

Mr. Newman: It is a dedicated trust account, so any use of the money is for these kinds of projects alone. I do not want anyone, hearing or reading what is said here, to come to the conclusion that somehow or other this is used for any other purpose. It is a dedicated trust fund, and I might say it is something that we have reviewed by the Provincial Auditor as well.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us how many active pits there are in Manitoba now, and are there more or less than in the past? Is the trend increasing? Are we looking at larger operations? What is the future of the construction industry?

Mr. Newman: At any one time I am advised that we have 700 to 800 operating pits, private and Crown lands.

Ms. Mihychuk: I am prepared to pass this section.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): 23.2.(c) Mines (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,370,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $515,700--pass.

23.2.(d) Geological Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,512,200.

Ms. Mihychuk: We now see the section that deals with geological mapping. Is it my understanding then that aggregate resources is now moving into Geological Services? I see under subappropriation 23-2(c) that it is the Mines Branch that is responsible for compiling the inventory of aggregate resources in the province, yet we turn to Geological Services in terms of doing that responsibility. I am not arguing that it should not be, in fact, in that branch, but is there a change perhaps in some of these activity identifications?

Mr. Newman: The answer is yes. The branch has been reorganized into two principal operational sections: The Precambrian, and the Sedimentary and Industrial Minerals sections headed by two new chief geologists.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the director of Geological Services outline for us what the summer program will be? This is always a very exciting time. The department initiates a number of projects. Geologists are getting ready to go out into the field. We have the continuing of the emphasis on the Superior project, so I would like to hear what initiatives we are taking. I will turn over the question to the minister.

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Mr. Newman: Twenty-six projects are going to be fielded in 1997 as opposed to 14 in 1996. There will be 1,350 person field days in 1997 as opposed to 1,069 in 1996. That is a 26 percent increase. The allocation of costs, salary and other between regions is as follows: Flin Flon-Snow Lake region, $484,900, and that is 20 percent of the cost; the Kisseynew region, $31,800, that is 1 percent; the Thompson belt, $305,200, that is 12 percent; Northern Superior, I am sure you will be pleased with this, as am I, $787,600, 32 percent; and southeast Manitoba, $1,000, 1 percent; southern Manitoba, $270,100, 11 percent; Manitoba General, that is the central region, $240,100, 13 percent; Winnipeg-based compilations, et cetera, $328,300, 10 percent.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us whether we are seeing more staff going out in the field and why do we see such a significant increase in the number of field days? Something very positive, I must add, I am pleased to see that. Has there been an increase in staffing or how are we implementing such an expanded field program?

Mr. Newman: Last year, the focus was on the report development, and now they are getting more involved in a full-blown field-work program. This is supported by an increase of an additional staff year and an additional $24,900 for summer field assistance and an additional $323,000 in operating funds to launch the major new undertaking in the Superior Province.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate on the line item, page 31, where we see an increase in staff?

Mr. Newman: I would like to clarify that the increases I just spoke to were increases last year that have been maintained this year. So it is the direction, the focus, which has changed from more focus on reporting to now more focus on field work.

Ms. Mihychuk: I understand that there has been a reorganization, and if I understand correctly from the minister, there are two basic sections. Does that mean that we are going to see an associated reduction in the number of managerial positions? Presently, there are four managerial positions. We have restructured. Can we see a reduction in management?

Mr. Newman: No.

(Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Ms. Mihychuk: Well, this is an area that perhaps needs review. Many of the people who are, in fact, involved in the professional technical area are basically self-supervising. We were talking about geologists' professional accreditation. These are individuals who generally need very little supervision and management.

This may be an area, if the department needs to further look at reductions. I would suggest that we look at management always prior to looking at field personnel, energy management staff. There are a great number of needs, and it is always, I believe, a better philosophy to look at the top and keep the resources in the field.

So it may be appropriate, given that there is a reorganization, to review the management structure of the department.

Mr. Newman: Have you got any specific suggestions as to who is redundant and who might be shuffled out?

Ms. Mihychuk: Well, just for the record, I will be speaking to the minister in private. I do not want to put the people on--I do not want to cause them any apprehension. I am not going to get into targeting specific positions. Many of the people employed in the department and in this field, in particular, are friends.

I would suggest that is an area that can be reviewed. The minister is more than able to look at it in terms of a management perspective. I am not going to be suggesting any particular person who needs redirection or elimination, or the position, rather, be eliminated, just that philosophically if we are going to look at reductions or reorganization, it may be an opportunity to save in administration.

Mr. Newman: I want to thank you for that. I think that sort of candour is important, and it is your belief that there is a redundancy in the management area in this particular branch. That is your point, and I will have my deputy minister take a look at that.

Ms. Mihychuk: One of the important supports for any geological survey is the amount of supplies in field support, and I see that there has been a slight increase in supplies and services. If I recollect, this is probably long overdue. Are the supplies and equipment that the department has up to par? Do we have what we need to do a comprehensive modern field survey?

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Mr. Newman: The answer is, yes, with the additional resources that were obtained last year and are retained this year, they are able to move in that direction.

Ms. Mihychuk: Are field crews that are going to be in remote locations going to have access to individual personal communication devices? I understand that there are devices which you could signal to a satellite for your actual location, and perhaps they can be used as a communication device. I am looking for a safety device for field crews that are in remote locations. Technology has moved along significantly. Has the department got the latest in terms of this sort of technology?

Mr. Newman: Each remote camp is in daily radio contact on morning and evening schedules, and many are supplied with radio telephones. There is not a usage of satellite link phones at this time.

Ms. Mihychuk: Well, perhaps the minister would consider that it is time to move into the '90s. We have had field crews with skids, as they are called for many, many years, back to the '50s. We have modern technology. I know that the equipment and supplies list was probably being used on essential supplies, tents, boats, packs and other things that are absolutely vital, but I would argue that it is also equally as important to know where our field staff are going to be and be able to reach them individually when they are out all day long.

They can leave at seven in the morning and they do not return until dusk. Those are individuals that could be in peril. They are skilled individuals for the most part, but I would not like to think that an accident could happen. So I would urge the minister, in terms of safety for our personnel, that we look at some type of device that can be with those individuals when they are in the field and, again, move into the '90s. The technology is available. It is used by industry, and I think it would be appropriate for the ministry to go ahead and get these types of devices for its own field crews.

Mr. Newman: My understanding is that we are talking about a significant expenditure. I just note that it was very interesting, when you talked--when I was doing sandbagging with the military, the military were complaining about the field telephones that they used, and you probably would have witnessed the sort of fairly cumbersome and heavy radio systems that they had one individual carry in each of the groups of the armed forces that perform functions. There was a common complaint that sometimes they did not work and they are out of date.

So we never provide probably the high quality, state-of-the-art equipment we would like to provide to maximize the convenience and safety of the individuals that perform these kinds of roles, but certainly it is something we are aware of. At this time the communications methodology is seen to be a reasonably safe and adequate means of communicating. Certainly it can be improved, and it is a matter of priority decision making using, again, taxpayers' money wisely with the limited resources available.

Ms. Mihychuk: Well, the safety of these individuals is a priority to me. I also am concerned knowing the staff, they are most in good shape but were getting a little bit aged. As we were out in the field, this is a stable group of individuals who are put out into situations which are physically challenging, and I want to ensure that their safety is foremost. They sacrifice their personal lives, their families, and their personal safety when they go out into some very remote situations, particularly in the Superior Province. If they do not have air support, they can be away from base camp for a significant length of time. It can be difficult to locate individuals who are in such remote locations, so I would urge the minister to consider priorities. The safety and life of our staff should be foremost and a worthwhile expenditure.

To continue in the area of safety, has the department taken on a policy of ensuring that every staffperson, including the summer staff, are updated on first aid as to summer personnel? We can lose the senior geologist to an accident or some other situation, so that the support person, usually a summer student, must be capable of performing first aid at those situations and getting out of the bush and getting help. We talked about having the field book in your back pocket. I think it is going to take more than the field book; it is going to take a fairly comprehensive program of field safety for geologists and their staff. I would suggest that the geologists need to have valid first aid and keep up with it, because you tend to get somewhat complacent and think that you know it, but in a state of an emergency, you need to be on guard at all times. We are seeing a fairly significant increase in field days, so I think we need to be cautious. Can the minister assure us that we have a comprehensive safety program or policy by the department?

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Mr. Newman: I can confirm that the department has instituted a number of procedures to protect both staff and assistants. There certainly are risks inherent in the job. The procedures that are available in part of the program are mandatory attendance of St. John's emergency first aid training. This is repeated every third year for staff and is a required condition of employment for students. Each student and staff is supplied with a special air service survivor manual and a first aid kit that they must carry with them at all times. In the event of an emergency in the bush, the SAS manual supplies basic survival information and procedures. Each campsite is supplied with a large, fully stocked emergency first-aid kit, containing physician-approved medical items and a St. John's first aid survival manual. There is the radio contact which I have already described.

Each seasonal assistant is supplied with a recently revised and updated camp and field guide, and this guide contains basic safety and procedural information as well as guides to the safe use of boats, motors and airplanes along with instructions in the use of radios and radio telephones in the event of an emergency. In addition, staff provides on-the-job training, particularly during the first week of employment, which emphasizes the safety and procedural issues already discussed in the camp and field guide.

Staff members attend mandatory CPR first-aid training every year as well as other training programs as needed. For example, there is a one-day training session in the use of pepper spray and firearms. Pepper spray is supplied to all field staff and their assistants as protection against air attacks. Firearms are used solely by staff members and are provided as protection of campsites from bears, and the safety committee has developed a number of procedures that respond to safety issues in remote areas, for example, boat motors of safety switches that are activated if the driver is knocked overboard.

ID cards are supplied to students that allow them to access support in the event of an emergency where a permanent staff member is not present, and procedures have been developed to deal with working in remote areas.

Ms. Mihychuk: I see that there have been several initiatives implemented, and I have confidence that the staff are better prepared to deal with those emergencies although I still urge you to look at personal identification devices of some type for remote projects.

I want to go into another area of the budget, so I am going to just ask one more question, and this is on the length of time it takes to produce a final report. Generally, the field work occurs and it may be a one-year project, two-year project; there is the processing of the data, the geochemical testing and then a report is written. What length of time, on average, does it take to produce a final report?

Mr. Newman: With your permission, I would like to invite Mr. McRitchie to respond to that because he has a fairly detailed response which he can articulate well.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Does the committee agree to that? [agreed] Mr. McRitchie, please.

Mr. David McRitchie (Director, Geological Services Branch): The two levels of answer that I would give you is: No. 1, we are taking full advantage of the more recent digital database capabilities that we have, and so we are releasing information in open files within six months of the data collection. A case in point being the first release from the multimedia surveys that were conducted last summer in the Northern Superior Province. The complete database is being released on May 26, which is approximately six months, seven months, after all that information was collected, and that was a very comprehensive database that had at least five or six different sample media types.

When one looks at the final reports, I think I would like to use as an example the outputs from the Shield Margin project, which was a federal-provincial project conducted over the last five years in the Flin Flon-Snow Lake region. The field work related to that project was concluded last summer. The maps are being released this May, at the GACMAC, and the final products, the entire database, together with the writeup, will be released in November of this year with a special edition of the Canadian Journal of Earth Sciences next spring. So again, we are looking at between a year and 18 months for the results of a major, integrated federal-provincial program which has already been supplemented by a large volume, something like 150, 160 interim releases of open files, papers, talks, field guides and other sorts of information that is being passed onto industry.

Ms. Mihychuk: Well, I guess, my line of questioning just relates to the hope that we see rapid turnover of the information and accessibility to it, and I appreciate the director's comments. Every project is different, I understand that, but I do sense from the department more availability and more accessibility to information, which I think is another key factor to making Manitoba the best place in Canada to mine, so it is an important factor to be considered. I am prepared to pass this section.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Item 23.2.(d) Geological Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,512,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,122,400--pass.

Resolution 23.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $8,513,000 for Energy and Mines, Energy and Mineral Resources, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1998.

Shall the resolution pass?

Ms. Mihychuk: I would like to ask a couple of questions on the Industry Support Programs. Would it be appropriate?

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Pardon me. I will just interject. We need to pass this first and then we will move on to the next area. We are just completing the resolution for Section 2.

Shall the resolution pass? The resolution is accordingly passed.

Now moving on to 23.3. Industry Support Programs (a) Mineral Exploration Assistance Program $3,000,000.

Ms. Mihychuk: I would like to ask the minister: The money, the funds, for this program, can the minister tell us where the funds are coming from? What is the appropriation line? Is it from general revenue? Is it Industry Support Programs? How is this money generated?

Mr. Newman: There is no specific source of funding. It is just an allocation through the Treasury Board allocation.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister explain the allocation? I thought I saw a special warrant, or some document like that, that talked about using the Mining Reserve Fund for funding the MEAP program. Am I mistaken or was that for another year? What is the status of these funds?

Mr. Newman: With your permission, can Mr. Garry Barnes answer this question?

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): There is agreement in the committee. Mr. Barnes, please.

Mr. Garry Barnes (Director, Administration and Finance Branch): A couple of years ago, when we had the old MEIP program, we had an allocation of $2 million. Then last year, we wanted to establish the petroleum, the PEAP program, at a level of $1 million, and we wanted to increase the new MEAP program to a total of $3 million. So, in other words, we were going from $2 million to $4 million. Where would that money come from?

Under the Mining Community Reserve, there is a clause that says, the Minister of Finance can move amounts in excess of $5 million in the reserve to general revenue.

So what happened was it was agreed that $2 million per year over a three-year period would be allocated from the Mining Community Reserve to general revenue, and at the same time, our allocation of new money voted through the Estimates would increase by an equivalent amount, $2 million, so that the net effect or the net impact on the overall budget would be neutral.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): The hour being 5 p.m., committee rise.