Mr. Deputy Speaker: Prior to Oral Question Period, we have with us today from Benilde, St. Margaret's High School Choir and Band from Maples, Minnesota, under the direction of Keith Cuddy and Paul Keefe. We welcome you here today.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to ask either the Premier or the Minister of Natural Resources a question on information dealing with the cubic foot flow through the city of Winnipeg. Late Wednesday, and reported in the media on Thursday, was the prediction that we would have some 71,000 cubic feet flow per second through the city of Winnipeg with 8,000 being from the tributaries, the La Salle, the Assiniboine and the Seine rivers. Now we are hearing that the tributaries and the flow from the Red will equal an amount of some 83,000 cfs in the city of Winnipeg at the peak. I would like to ask the government: Why has it gone up from the 78,000 figure to the 83,000?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Deputy Speaker, the figures that we have for the estimated flow in the Red River will be at the elevations in the 24-foot range, and that is at the higher end of the predicted range. So that simply reflects that higher volume of water going through the river.

Mr. Doer: Constituents and members of the public are calling because they have read the material on the projections of the 78,000 cubic feet flow per second with the tributaries on Thursday in the media, and they had also read and were very interested in the impact of the 24.5 at the James Street station. Now they are reading that it is 83,000 and no change on the upper limit of the James Street.

I would like to ask the minister: What is the answer to a 5,000 cfs increase in a couple of days in terms of projections and no change in the upper limits of 24.5 in terms of questions we are getting asked?

Mr. Cummings: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the answer is as I simply responded a moment ago. There are no changes in the levels and the volumes should correspond with those levels. I believe that there may have been some misunderstanding of the precise cfs that was printed or repeated, but certainly we have no changes in the predicted levels and what that means in volumes going through the city. There was a significant concern that a surge coming down the Assiniboine River might have elevated the river a couple of days ago and yesterday. In fact, yesterday morning, the Red River at James Street was running I believe seven inches below what we had predicted, so it is also driven by ice jams which can increase and reduce. On that point, Mr. Deputy Speaker, there were ice jams last night on the Assiniboine which gave some considerable concern. They have been watched closely, but it is temporary and it is localized. That does not mean that it is not a problem, but it is not a sign of significant increased flows in the long range down the Assiniboine.

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Mr. Doer: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to further ask then--the government is saying that their projections are the 83,000 cfs per second in terms of the city of Winnipeg flow with the tributaries of the three rivers mentioned in both releases. Secondly, will that mean 24 feet 5 inches at James Street, and thirdly, what will the impact of that flow be on areas such as Scotia Street, Kildonan Drive, Bunn's Creek and other areas at the north end of the area where the Assiniboine comes into the Red?

Mr. Cummings: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think we should focus on the levels that we have predicted to flow down the river. The cfs number is an important number, but it need not be important for the discussion that we are having at this point because people are worried about whether or not there will be water on their property and at what level. We are continuing to forecast that the levels of operation are as we had indicated, and the upper level would be 24.5.

Now when the member asked me for a specific street, I am going to indicate he should refer to the City of Winnipeg and the levels, the elevations that they have at that particular location so they know whether or not they have appropriate protection at that level. The City of Winnipeg has been continually preparing at the 26-foot level--is the information they have been publishing and working with our people. That would give them an additional two feet of freeboard at that 24-foot level. Remember that these numbers, the freeboard is there to provide some sense of security and make sure that the dikes are substantial in order to withstand any fluctuations that might occur around that 24-foot level.

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Mr. Deputy Speaker, this morning it is raining. Reports are that the stable weather conditions of the past week are not in the cards for next week. We are living in a state of emergency. People on Kingston Row and Kingston Crescent have received evacuation notices and of course are increasingly anxious about their homes.

I would like to ask the Premier if he would tell us this morning what contingency plans his government has in place if next week the water is lapping at the Kingston Row dike and the peak is not yet with us.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am not sure what the member is looking for. The contingency plans with respect to those areas are all in the hands of the local authorities, that is, the City of Winnipeg. If she would like to have the number, I am sure we can get it for her to call, and they would be able to give her that directly.

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Yesterday the Premier spoke to us about the importance of balance, and this side of the House respects and knows that the balance of our waters at present is delicate and subject to change, but residents of course are anxious for information.

I would like to ask the Premier in the case of the scenario outlined above if his government might consider increasing the flow of waters through the floodway.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I believe that yesterday I attempted to outline the balance that the experts, that is the engineers, the technical people, the Water Resources people are attempting to follow in this matter, and that is that based on the predicted flows and the best information available, which does assume some precipitation as we talked about, and it does also assume that there are excesses built into the protection--as the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings) spoke about, the City of Winnipeg is building two feet of freeboard in excess of the levels expected on their diking system within the city of Winnipeg-- based on all of that, the expectation is that the flows will not exceed the levels that are prepared for and that the floodway will carry its maximum design capacity, which is of course only 60 percent of its actual maximum capacity.

The reason why we would not want to go to the extent that the member opposite is advocating, which is to push more through the floodway, is because we would have to then artificially raise the levels upstream of Winnipeg in all of southern Manitoba to levels that would exceed the height of the dikes they have built. We would then be forcing flooding into communities that have built dikes under the assumption of certain levels to be prepared for. But it is worse than that, and that is that by doing so we would also probably force the water higher in the so-called backdoor route through Brunkild where we are currently building 16 miles of dike, and that would force it into the city of Winnipeg through a route for which they are not prepared inside the floodway. It would come into the city of Winnipeg in any case. That is not a very good plan. I know it is a plan that was advocated on radio by one of the city councillors, I think without adequate information, quite honestly. It is not something that I think we ought to be advocating against the best advice of the engineers and technical people.

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Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Osborne, with her final supplementary question.

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I just wanted to tell the Premier I am not advocating anything; I am seeking information, and, personally, I have great respect for engineers.

In view of the rising waters in the Assiniboine and the reports of already flooding basements along Roslyn Road, I want to ask the Premier what assurance he can give the hundreds of apartment dwellers along Roslyn Road, both east and west of the Osborne Street Bridge. I am talking about assurance with regard to the regulation of the waters in the Assiniboine River.

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Deputy Speaker, we experienced high flows yesterday and again today in the Assiniboine, and today's forecast will be available shortly, but we are not anticipating those levels to be long term. The information was that the upper end of the Assiniboine is beginning to recede, reduce flows. We also have, interestingly enough, protection of the flood plain. The flood gates and the diversion at Portage la Prairie will provide some significant additional diversion of waters on the river.

The member is asking about specific assurances at that level in the area of the Osborne Street towers. Those levels will be controlled within the same range as have been predicted. The precise measurement at that bridge I do not have in my hand, but it can be compared to last year's flood, the '96 flood, that we know we will have to be somewhat higher than that. That is calculated within the 24-foot range that we indicated at the James Street location.

So I want to assure that there is nothing unpredicted that is occurring, but there are some implications for ground-level services to some of those apartments, and that is why they were issued warnings that there could be an evacuation, not because there was going to be a dramatic event, but because there could be implications for their services coming in at the low level, and that is the concern that has been identified by the city.

Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Mr. Deputy Speaker, many residents and farmers along the Assiniboine River west of Winnipeg and those in the city who live along the Assiniboine River are very concerned that the water level of the Assiniboine is rising rapidly, and they need to make plans to protect themselves. These concerns have been issued to this side of the House and I am sure through the government side as well.

Can the minister or the Premier indicate to the House whether the diversion is operating at full capacity and whether the government is confident that it will divert enough water to alleviate the problems faced by farms and residents along the Assiniboine River west of the city?

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Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Deputy Speaker, as somebody who lives on the Assiniboine River, I am very much aware daily of what flows and levels are going through, so I made a point to ask the Water Resources people about it, and the information I received I think gave me some comfort that what we are seeing is the result of a temporary period that occurred. I believe it was last Sunday when, as a result of some rather severe ice damage to a bridge on the Assiniboine River floodway, they temporarily stopped all water going through the floodway. The ice was coming in huge chunks into the Assiniboine River diversion at Portage, and it did damage that bridge and caused them to stop the flow.

What that did was, for a period of time that I think was something like 16 hours, it allowed the full flow of the Assiniboine to go downstream of Portage la Prairie. That is what you are seeing come through right now, and it is a temporary thing and it will be dropping. If it has not begun to drop, it will be dropping noticeably very quickly, just as quickly as it rose.

So whatever went through Baie St. Paul and that area that you speak of between Portage la Prairie and Headingley has already--I believe the worst has passed, and we are back down again. So that is the best advice I have, and, incidentally, the member asked about the flow in the diversion, and I believe it is running at approximately 15,000 cubic feet a second, leaving now something like 6,200 cubic feet a second to go through the regular channel through Winnipeg.

So most of it is being diverted in accordance with its capacity. I think they like to leave a reasonable flow going through Winnipeg, and that flow is now down. It would appear to be down to less than a third of what it had been at the bulge. That is what will be coming downstream now.

Mr. Struthers: Could the Premier or the minister then indicate if the Department of Natural Resources has some contingency plans for people living along the Assiniboine, particularly those living further west in the rural parts outside of the city of Winnipeg?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Deputy Speaker, there have been some local streams that peaked about the same time that this elevated water went through as a result of the closure of the bypass at Portage temporarily.

That caused a surge. The department was out making sure that any spillage was minimized, that we were able to keep the ice moving as best we could. We have people on standby today to deal with ice jams, if needed, and hopefully they will not be, but, again, the high level that we have seen the last couple of days is not anticipated to continue. We would hope that we have seen the highest level in the area that the member is referring to. The update, as I indicated in my report earlier, the precise levels for today are being updated as we speak, and those will be made available as soon as possible.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Deputy Speaker, we hope that our farmers do not suffer the same losses to livestock as we saw our neighbours to the south suffer. However, the situation is becoming quite desperate and especially pressing for those in the poultry industry.

I would like to ask the Minister of Agriculture if his department is working to co-ordinate efforts to find facilities in other parts of the province to move these flocks, whether every effort is being made to co-ordinate volunteers, moving companies, or whether the armed forces that are now in the province are being called on to help move these flocks and save them.

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Deputy Speaker, yes, I can certainly assure the honourable member and all members of the House that staff in the Department of Agriculture is working tirelessly these days to accomplish just that. Just this morning I spoke again with several contacts with respect to the significant number of hogs, of course, that are normally resident in the Red River Valley. I am advised that a great number of them have been marketed. Homes have been found for those in jeopardy. There are a few in the peripheral area for which arrangements are being made in co-operation with the Emergency Measures people and the local authorities where, in some instances, permission will be granted to attend to hogs that are not in an immediate danger.

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The honourable member is right. Poultry is a particular problem, but there again, every effort is being made by staff in co-operation with the organizations. I might say the producers' boards, both eggs and broilers, are working with the Department of Agriculture staff to, wherever possible, find alternative housing. It is difficult for chickens. There are one or two instances that have been reported to me where they have gone to processing even prematurely.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Deputy Speaker, since it is my understanding that livestock is not covered under the disaster assistance fund and basically because the federal government said in the past that individuals should purchase their own livestock insurance, can the minister responsible for the Disaster Assistance Board indicate whether his government is revisiting this issue and is now prepared to cover livestock losses under the disaster assistance fund and whether any negotiations are going on with the federal government to see whether they will contribute to these losses?

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I cannot and will not speculate on those kinds of issues. I think what we have to do is do first things first, try to protect life and property and livestock to the largest extent possible. I am sure that when the waters recede, there will be a sizeable challenge in front of all of us to assess the damages and to undertake any review of how some of those costs can be ameliorated, together with our senior partner, the federal government.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Swan River, with her final supplementary question.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I agree with the minister that farmers have much more pressing things on their minds right now than compensation, but there is also a great concern about the crops that will be seeded. Some farmers have protected themselves from this possibility by taking out the seeded acreage insurance and others have not.

Can the minister indicate today what the implications are to Manitoba farmers in crop insurance coverage by the announcement by Mr. Goodale agreeing to amend the crop insurance guidelines to offer farmers an extended coverage for their unseeded acres? Has the minister taken that into consideration, and what are the implications for Manitoba farmers?

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I believe the member in her question raises part of the dilemma. Insurance for the inability of farmers to seed crops for different reasons has been available and is available. I can inform the House that upwards to 80,000 to 90,000 acres of the Red River Valley that are now being covered with water have that insurance. I welcome the federal government's indication of support in whatever measure it is, but again I think it would have been more prudent to have talked to crop insurance people initially or to Manitoba officials on the specific initiative that the member refers to.

Manitoba Crop Insurance tries to run an actuarially sound crop insurance program, and the kind of ad hoc, retroactive insurance coverage is not fair to all producers in the province and would have to be considered, in my opinion, outside of the normal crop insurance program. To do otherwise would be to ask her farmers, her producers in the Swan River Valley or in the upper reaches of the western part of the province to, through their premiums, reflect part of the assistance that Ottawa is generously holding out to the Red River Valley.

I have every empathy for the situation that farmers face. I also have some optimism. I am reminded that much of these same lands were under water a year ago at this time of year, and with the resourcefulness of Manitoba producers, 97 percent of the flooded acreages was in fact put into crop and successfully harvested.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Deputy Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Natural Resources. Quite understandably, there has been a great deal of focus and attention being given in terms of the crest and when Winnipeg and other jurisdictions are going to be seeing that crest. The question that I have to the minister is: Can he give us some sort of a report on what is to follow the crest? When will we actually start to see the water recede to a point at which there will be some normalcy back to Manitobans' lives?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): On that point, first of all, people will have noted, as I am sure the member for Inkster has, that the crest dates have been delayed. The crest is not yet at Emerson. I am going to leave the precise predictions of the dates in the hands of the forecasters. They have indicated it will be in the first week of May at the city of Winnipeg, but in terms of how long we can expect high water, again there are a number of influencing factors, and I will work with the forecasters in that respect. We know that in other locations they saw at least 10 days or more of high water, and there has to be a significant amount of time. We will wait until the forecasters provide us with that information on a precise date.

I think we should concentrate on preparing our diking efforts. I know the disruption and the concern that it raises at this point, but we must proceed to protect to the highest predicted levels so that we are confident that we can deal with the crest, and we will deal with the longevity of it when it gets here.

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Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): As long as necessary. Let me speak to the responsibility of Natural Resources and the responsibility that they take upon themselves at times such as this. The fact is that I am informed that the responsibility for the manning of the dikes and making sure that the infrastructure is sound and competent during the period of high water is in fact an even more heightened level of responsibility for those that are on duty, and we are indeed grateful for the hours and the dedication that these people are putting in today in advance of the crest. We know that we will have to call on them even more heavily once the crest is past in terms of making sure that the diking systems remain stable.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Inkster, with his final supplementary question.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): What about things such as, let us say, the military forces? Would the government currently be in some sort of negotiations or discussions that once we have hit the peak we will be able to continue to rely on resources such as those to be around to assist in cleanup and in other areas that there might be a need?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): In fact, we anticipate the assistance of the military and others in areas of responsibility to continue until we have dealt with the entirety of this flood event, but certainly we are looking and concentrating on the conditions that we must face during the impending peak. Certainly the member is correct to wonder what would happen following the crest, but, in fact, the level of support will have to continue well beyond the cresting of the river, and we are confident that we will have those resources at our disposal.

On behalf of the government, I want to make it very clear that we are extremely grateful to all of those who are out there today and have been for days and weeks and in some cases months working on the anticipated level of flood protection that we need. I am sure everybody in the province, but particularly those in the valley, is looking at the efforts that have been put forward and is extremely grateful and proud of the people of this province.

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Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Deputy Speaker, regarding the Manitoba Housing Authority tenants evicted on Behnke Road, the minister on April 16, '97, said: "All costs were picked up by the company Home Depot in moving these individuals." On April 21, Mrs. Waletzky, whose daughter and grandchildren were evicted, wrote to me: "I have been listening to Question Period and your questions to the Minister of Housing.

"I am sorry to say he is full of hot air . . . My daughter was told she would get moving expenses. Received nothing. Lies, lies & more lies."

I am willing to table that letter.

I want to ask the Minister of Housing: How does he explain the discrepancy--

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable government House leader, on a point of order.

Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I seek direction or assistance from the Chair on this matter. As I recall, this subject matter was the subject of a question of privilege raised by the honourable member for Radisson and taken under advisement by the presiding officer of this House, and I wonder if it is appropriate, pending that review, for this matter to be canvassed further today.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Radisson, on the same point of order.

Ms. Cerilli: The issue that I am raising has to do with the moving expenses, not the issue I raised earlier in terms of the press release and the scrap material being transferred for salvage, so I believe I am raising a new issue.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable minister did have a point of order because the member did refer to the matter that is before the House for the matter of privilege, but I would ask the honourable member to rephrase her question without referring to the matter of privilege that she was bringing forward.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Radisson, to rephrase her question, please.

Ms. Cerilli: The question I was going to ask the Minister of Housing is: How does the minister explain the discrepancy between his claims that those evicted from Behnke Road, those families, ended up having their moving expenses paid when the families themselves are saying that did not occur?

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): The member is referring to Behnke Road again, in which there was an agreement made between the Home Depot, who was the purchaser of the property, and Manitoba Housing that the expenses were covered in regard to the moving.

We paid for these moving expenses that these people incurred. Home Depot will reimburse Manitoba Housing for these expenses. So if there is a discrepancy regarding this particular individual not being paid--I am not too sure whether the member is referring that this individual paid for the moving expenses, because Manitoba Housing did pick up the expenses of moving these people out of those units.

Ms. Cerilli: I would like the minister to explain to the House who is correct here and who is wrong. Is it the families who have said that they had received nothing from Home Depot or from Manitoba Housing to cover their expenses--they had to move in with family, were not provided new accommodation, a two-bedroom apartment like they had with Manitoba Housing--or is he correct when he is contradicting these families who have written to me clearly that they did not receive this support?

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the letter that the member is referring to is referring to one individual person here. If this person somehow incurred expenses that we are not aware of, we will certainly look at it, because the intent was that Manitoba Housing would move these people at Manitoba Housing's expense--these people would not have a cost involved with the moving--and that Home Depot would reimburse Manitoba Housing for this moving expense. If there is a discrepancy regarding this one individual, we certainly will look at it and find out why she paid for her moving, because that was not the intent.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Radisson, with her final supplementary question.

Ms. Cerilli: Will the minister bring to this House information that will clarify the number of tenants evicted from Behnke Road that had their moving expenses covered and what those expenses were? Will he clarify the record and bring that information to this House?

Mr. Reimer: As I indicated, if there is a problem with this particular person that got moved and she incurred expenses that were not covered for some reason, then we will certainly look at it. The intent was that Manitoba Housing would pay for the expenses of moving these people. We did this. If there is someone that incurred expenses, we are willing to look at this and find out why this person was billed for this, because this was not the intent. Manitoba Housing did pay for the expenses of the moving.

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Mr. Deputy Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education. Yesterday we had confirmed that this government continues its voluntary sweetheart deal with private schools, despite the advice of its own advisory committee, the federal cuts and the very principles of fairness. Public schools are forced to cut programs and supports to their students and property taxes soar while private schools reap the benefits.

My question to the minister: Can the minister tell us how much private school fees have increased in the last four years, given that the average homeowner in my constituency has seen their school taxes go up 28 percent?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): I know the members opposite are philosophically opposed to people being able to exercise rights that do not put them into a mold, but I have to indicate several things in response to her answer. First of all, we talk about issues of fairness, issues of equality, issues of rights. We also talk about how to disburse funds--[interjection]

I am being distracted, Mr. Deputy Speaker, by comments that I can distinguish and I do object to, but I will not rise on a point of order because we have enough points of order being raised in the Chamber all the time.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Could I ask the members who are wanting to carry on their conversations to do so in the hall so that we can carry on with Question Period.

The honourable minister, to continue her response.

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Deputy Speaker, first of all, fees for independent schools will go up at different rates in different schools because they have different costs and different needs, so they do not have a standard across the Jewish board of education and the Christian schools and the Catholic schools, Holy Ghost School. All of those schools will have differing rates. We fund children. We are responsible for the education of all children in Manitoba--public schools which are fully funded, independent schools which are partly funded; 50 percent versus 100 percent is what we are talking about. We have nonfunded schools that receive no funding at all. We have home schools. We are responsible for them all, and our concern is the children.

Taxes have gone up far less by school boards under this government than they ever were able to do under their government. That is an important point to note.

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Ms. Mihychuk: Mr. Deputy Speaker, my supplementary question to the Minister of Education: Does this minister know what programs have been cut out of private schools while we have seen cuts to early childhood programs, busing, counselling, resource, library supports, textbooks, and the list goes on? We have seen cuts to public schools and expansion of the private school system. Tell us what programs have been cut in the private school system.

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I invite the member to come with me--it is a sincere invitation--and visit some of the small independent schools in Manitoba which would compromise the majority of them, and 83 percent are small religious schools. I would invite her to come with me and look at the programs, the equipment, et cetera, and she will discover they do not have very much to cut.

I would say, as well, that the member has identified programs that she has alleged have been cut because of our provincial funding, and she has identified programs that are not covered by Education funding and never have been in the province's history.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for St. James, with her final supplementary question.

Ms. Mihychuk: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am asking the minister--she is indicating that she believes public schools have room to cut. What programs does the minister feel that public schools can cut? [interjection]

Mrs. McIntosh: Excuse me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I did not quite hear the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett). I wonder if she could repeat that, please, for the record.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Could I ask the honourable minister to answer the question. This is not the time to enter into debate with the honourable member.

Mrs. McIntosh: Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker. School divisions in Manitoba have received $746.7 million this year from the Province of Manitoba. That is a $115-million increase over what they gave the last time that they were in office, they being the members of the NDP. In addition to that, we have also provided money from Health to hire nurses. We have doubled special needs funding. We have introduced many new programs into schools, technology programs of millions and millions and millions of dollars that were never there in the '80s. I was there in the '80s; they were not there. They are there now, and they are continuing to grow and develop. Many private schools do not have those programs.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Time for Oral Question Period has expired.