PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS

DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS--PRIVATE BILLS

Bill 300--The Salvation Army Catherine Booth Bible College Incorporation Amendment Act

Mr. Deputy Speaker: On the proposed motion of the member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau), Bill 300 (The Salvation Army Catherine Booth Bible College Incorporation Amendment Act; Loi Modifiant la Loi constituant en corporation le Collége biblique Catherine Booth de l'Armé du Salut), standing in the name of the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux).

Is there leave that this matter remain standing? [agreed]

Bill 200--The Health Services Amendment Act

Mr. Deputy Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable member for Inkster, Bill 200, The Health Services Insurance Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la Loi sur l'arrurance-maladie), standing in the name of the honourable Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Praznik).

Stand? Is there leave that this matter remain standing? [agreed]

Bill 201--The Aboriginal Solidarity Day Act

Mr. Deputy Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson), Bill 201 (The Aboriginal Solidarity Day Act; Loi sur le jour de solidarité à l'égard des autochtones), standing in the name of the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau).

Is there leave that this matter remain standing? Stand? [agreed]

SECOND READINGS--PUBLIC BILLS

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Second reading, public bills, Bill 202, The Home Care Protection and Consequential Amendments Act, standing in the name of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak). Stand? Is there leave that this matter remain standing? [interjection] It is not standing? Sorry, just one second. Is this bill going to be proceeded with? I am sorry, that was wrong on my part. So this bill is not being proceeded with at this time.

Bill 203, is that bill being proceeded with at this time? No? Bill 205? Yes?

Bill 205--The Dutch Elm Disease Amendment Act

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), that The Dutch Elm Disease Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur la thyllose parasitaire de l'orme, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House.

Motion presented.

Ms. Friesen: The purpose of this bill, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is a simple one. It is intended to increase the amount of a fine that a judge may levy for offences or for the breaking of the provincial Dutch Elm Disease Act, and it increases it from $1,000 to a possibility of $10,000. It gives the judges the greater latitude in the setting of fines for offences against The Dutch Elm Disease Amendment Act. It does not require fines of that amount. It simply gives them greater latitude.

(Madam Speaker in the Chair)

The origins of this bill, Madam Speaker, are twofold. One is that in two recent cases over the past two years, judges have made note in their comments after particular trials that the fines that they were able to impose were relatively small, so I had taken note of that. In my own constituency we did have a particular outbreak of Dutch elm disease at the bottom of Ethelbert Street, and, again, it seemed I think to people in the constituency that the fines or the penalties in The Dutch Elm Disease Act were not ones that were necessarily being taken seriously by everyone. So this proposal is to increase the latitude for judges in their levying of fines.

Madam Speaker, the Dutch elm disease issue in Manitoba is one that has been with us, I think, since the 1970s. Dutch elm disease itself is caused by a fungus, a fungal disease that is transmitted between the elms by beetles. It first appeared or at least was first noted in Manitoba in 1975. Since 1975, about 35 percent of the trees across Manitoba have been lost to Dutch elm disease, although I think it is difficult, particularly in rural areas, to estimate the exact, the precise amount of the loss.

But, certainly, they have been lost, and we do know that in other jurisdictions that that disease has travelled very quickly, and there are some very stark and very unpleasant pictures of cities in the United States and the eastern parts of Canada where Dutch elm disease when it was not checked, monitored, and where people allowed the disease to catch hold, that very quickly the entire stock of elms of communities can be simply decimated, so, Madam Speaker, I think that this issue is an important one for both rural and urban Manitoba and particularly the city of Winnipeg.

Now, I know that the government itself is looking at and, indeed, has draft versions of another Dutch elm disease act. It is not one that I have seen; it is not one that I have heard the precise elements of, but I do know that they are working on it. I hope that we will be able to see it soon. What I mean to say by this is that this particular change that I am proposing here, I am well aware that this is not the entire nature of the revamping and improvement of The Dutch Elm Disease Act that is required. So what I am doing here is drawing the government's attention, the attention of the House, to one element of that and one element that some of my constituents in particular believe could be dealt with very quickly. It may take several more years for the revamping of the act by the government, and we would like to see some changes that can be brought in quite quickly ahead of that.

So I recommend this bill to the government in that context. It is not one that necessarily rules out changes that they might want to make, but it is one which does address a need that both constituents and, I gather, some judges see as preferable.

The Dutch Elm Disease Act has been raised in this Legislature before. In 1992, when the present Minister of Agriculture was the Minister of Environment, we had a number of relatively genteel exchanges across the floor of this House on his decision to reduce the funding for Dutch elm, and the end of that was that the minister did increase the funding or restore, I should say, the funding for Dutch elm disease, and this is to the city of Winnipeg in particular. I think that was a good move. It was a sensible one; we appreciated it. I think it was the right thing to do.

There are other areas where I think there has also been a useful role played by the government. The government has given some money to research on Dutch elm disease fungus. It is research that is being done in Toronto, and the government has provided small amounts of support. I think that is a step in the right direction, and it is particularly something that I would suggest to any Minister of the Environment, that they pursue a national program of Dutch elm disease research. It is something which applies particularly in western Canada. It might be something that might go on as an item at a western ministers' meeting because it is something where pooled resources, pooled research, I think, would play a valuable role. Certainly, cities to the west of us, communities in rural Saskatchewan and Alberta are certainly likely to be threatened as well.

So I again commend the government for that small step and suggest that they take the sensible approach and look for some co-operation in research areas in this. Dutch elm disease at the moment can only be contained. It cannot be, so far, prevented, so that the whole effort of community and of government has to be oriented towards its containment. So far in Winnipeg, I think various jurisdictions working together, and with a particularly skilled and enthusiastic group of citizens, have managed to contain the loss to so far manageable proportions, although we were very concerned about the outbreak at the bottom of Ethelbert Street close to the river.

Madam Speaker, I think when people come to Winnipeg and to the river parts of the province, they are very well aware of the value of those elms. You turn off Portage Avenue, for example, it is 90 degrees on Portage Avenue, you turn off onto Home Street or Arlington, to any of those heavily wooded streets in Wolseley, you feel almost immediately a dropping of 10 degrees in the temperature. Similarly other parts of the province of Manitoba, I think the elms have proved to be a very important part, not just of the esthetic aspects of cities and communities, but in a sense as the lungs of the community is one way in which they describe their importance to the overall health of the community, as well as to the cooling in some of the hot summers, cooling effect that they have in some of our hot summers.

The City of Winnipeg in particular, I think , should be complimented for the foresight that it had at the turn of the century in beginning that planting program. Those people who planted and paid for those elms knew that they would never live to see the kind of magnificent vistas that we enjoy. They planned for the long term. They planned for the next generation. They knew that they were not the ones who were going to heap the rewards. It was, I think, an important aspect of the kind of society that we had in Winnipeg at the turn of the century. To those city fathers and mothers who provided those elms, I think, a commendation goes, but also to the present coalitions of citizens which have emerged. I am thinking particularly in the city of Winnipeg to the Coalition to Save the Elms which joins people across the city in different parts--north, south, east and west--where the elms have an important role to play and has brought them together in a variety of volunteer groups to work both hands-on and in research and in communication to try and bring this issue to the attention of citizens and to enable people to play a much greater individual and collective role in their preservation.

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We have, for example, in my community the Elm Guard. Each citizen takes a certain portion of the community, three or four blocks, sometimes just a block, and they agree--and I have about four blocks myself--and we walk those blocks during the early parts of the summer. We take a training session every year, and I must admit every year I maybe get a little closer to recognizing what Dutch elm disease is. It is not an easy disease to spot as an amateur, and certainly is something that over the years you do begin to build up some expertise. While I certainly do not claim to have the range of expertise that we find, for example, amongst many of the people in our community, but citizens on foot, citizens with little note pads examining every tree, taking an interest in them, and ensuring that if there is any sign of weakness, if there is any sign of wilting, that the city forester and the city workers are notified quickly. They do act quickly, and it is that sense of citizen participation, knowledge, a responsible city government which responds quickly, which is enabling us in the constituency of Wolseley at least and in other parts of the city as well to begin some containment.

I want to mention some of the names of the people who have been involved, to give great credit to people like Roger Geeves, to earlier city councillors like Sandy Hyman, for example, who also took a special interest in this program, to people like Alana Daly [phonetic], and many others who have participated, very intensively, in the Elm Guard Program over the years. City foresters like Mike Allen and his assistant, Phil Pines, also take the time every year to take us out on a tour, to show us slides, and to refresh our memories on the inspection of each of the trees in our constituency. So it is a co-operative effort, and I think it is important to recognize that it is not just the provincial government.

Even though this is a bill which aims to change some of the provincial legislation, the legislative framework is only part of it. Research at a national or regional level is another important part. The revamping of the bill entirely may be another step that we should all be looking at, but the citizen participation and the role of the City of Winnipeg, I think, have also been significant. So, in putting this bill before the House, Madam Speaker, I want to pay tribute to all those people who have enabled the City of Winnipeg and the Province of Manitoba to, so far, retain some control and some containment over a disease which, I think, would be disastrous for the economy and for the health of our Manitoba society.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to say a few words about this particular piece of legislation. I think that the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) is attempting to deal with an issue which many Winnipeggers in particular--but Dutch elm disease is not just within the city of Winnipeg; it is virtually throughout the province, or at least in many parts of the province.

The Dutch elm disease is, indeed, a very serious problem, and I know in the past, you know, I can recall a number of years ago where the government--

An Honourable Member: We were hoping for that kind of broader vision, Kevin.

Mr. Lamoureux: Well, I am talking about a broader vision, for the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey). He has got to be a little more patient and listen in terms of what it is I am talking about.

I can recall a number of years back when the Dutch elm disease came to the surface, and the government--now I believe this would have been, oh, late or, no, mid-summer, let us say around summertime, just before a provincial election in 1990, when the government came up with a Dutch elm tree program in which they came up with some grant dollars--

An Honourable Member: I remember that.

Mr. Lamoureux: See the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) recalls that. Was that your--

An Honourable Member: I was the Minister of Natural Resources.

Mr. Lamoureux: He was the Minister of Natural Resources at the time, and you know something, Madam Speaker, the Minister of Natural Resources, current Minister of Agriculture, had a wonderful idea. The idea was, we want to be able to address this particular problem head on, and came up with a few dollars. I cannot recall the exact amount of dollars, but it was a number of dollars that were made available in order to assist in trying to prevent this disease from spreading, just prior to an election.

An Honourable Member: Seven hundred and fifty thousand.

Mr. Lamoureux: The minister says, $750,000. Well, whatever the amount of dollars actually was, there was a need to come up with a program because these are trees that are throughout the city, but there are certain areas in which there is such a very high concentration. You drive down some of those boulevards and you see very impressive trees, and they add so much to the city of Winnipeg.

In essence, what the bill is suggesting, of course, is that to have a fine of $1,000 is not really anything of any significance in terms of protecting these beautiful trees. So the suggestion is to increase it up to somewhere in the neighbourhood of $10,000.

Madam Speaker, knowing and having been through the riding of Wolseley, you get a better appreciation of just how splendid these trees can be, because the riding of Wolseley is littered with these trees--and littered in a positive sense, I must say. So I can see where the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) is coming up with this particular piece of legislation, and it is something in which, of course, we would not oppose. But, you know, what it does raise is a point, for me, in the sense that here we have a member that has a fairly legitimate piece of legislation or proposing a private member's piece of legislation, and it will be interesting to see to what degree the government is going to give this piece of legislation attention. I think that it warrants the attention from all sides of this House, and, ultimately, it would even be nice to see this legislation go before committee and pass and even, ultimately, receive Royal Assent. What I see is an individual that is attempting to rectify or to assist in ensuring that we are going to have our elm trees into the future to protect as much as possible the beautification, if you like, of our wonderful city of Winnipeg.

Madam Speaker, I believe even the elm is one of the reasons why in the back we had some problem with our water fountain. You know, maybe the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pallister) might even comment on that. I know during the summer--[interjection] Hopefully, when the minister--and I know he is eagerly trying to resolve that particular problem. But we do not see some of our trees being lost in the back of the building because, indeed, these are very important trees. Hopefully this high-tech water fountain is not going to see the end of these beautiful trees, and it is something that is really important. I know the Minister of Government Services is studying it very heavily, I am sure invests a great deal of time and resources. I know labour-wise the water fountain has been receiving a lot of attention. Mind you, recently I have been seeing the water fountain working, and that is encouraging. The real challenge for this government is going to be, is the water fountain going to be working come next summer or leading into the spring? That is when it is going to be really interesting to see.

Anyway, Madam Speaker, I am somewhat getting off topic here. The member does bring forward a good piece of legislation. I would go back to what the dean of the Chamber has said about legislation, Private Members' Business, and he articulated in the past as to how important it is to allow debate and to encourage members from all sides to participate in the debate, and if in fact there are some good ideas to allow a particular bill to pass. I believe that the current Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) was correct in his assessment back then and would suggest to him that if in fact he reviewed a number of the private members' bills--and to a certain degree even some of the resolutions--there is a need to see some sort of a vote on some of this stuff, and it would be nice to see this particular Bill 205 ultimately receive a vote and, as to say, go through the Chamber.

I have to plug at this time also, Madam Speaker, because we are talking about the importance of private members' bills--and I know the dean is listening to what I am saying--is that there is another private member's bill on the five fundamental principles of health that also, I believe, merit approval from this particular Chamber. At least allow us the opportunity to be able to have the vote.

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An Honourable Member: Absolutely.

Mr. Lamoureux: The Minister of Agriculture is absolutely with me, he says, on that, and hopefully he will lobby inside his caucus because that is a very important bill for our caucus, and we would definitely like to see much more debate on that particular piece.

Madam Speaker, you know, I always admired the current Minister of Housing (Mr. Reimer) and the minister--well, at the time, he was not the minister. You recall a while back he gave, I believe it would have been, close to about a 30-minute speech on the pine tree, on the spruce, pine. We had a piece of legislation that came in the House, and it was a fairly impressive bill. It recognized a very important tree in the province of Manitoba, much like Bill 205 acknowledges a very important tree, that being the Dutch elm disease. Well, the minister today, the Minister of Housing, talked about this particular tree for somewhere around 30 minutes in the House, fairly pleased to see that he was so knowledgeable about this particular tree.

Well, I am not as knowledgeable or as able-minded as the member for Housing on that particular tree, but one of the things I do recognize is that in Winnipeg we have trees of all varieties, and these trees do a lot for the city and, ultimately, for the province. So it is important for governments, whether it is at the provincial level or it is at the civic level, to be able to do what they can to be able to ensure that there is future growth. I know, in my own area, that the City of Winnipeg does play a fairly active role in planting trees. There are different programs that are out there. You know, I guess it would have been about a year ago, I met with some members from the local scout troop, and they were actually planting trees. It was all in hopes to increase the number of trees in the province of Manitoba. I believe it was one million or whether it was within the government and working in co-operation with different organizations that they were trying to achieve a very significant number of trees being planted in some sort of a time frame.

Well, Madam Speaker, it is encouraging to see so many people that want to get involved in making sure that the scenery of Winnipeg, and even outside of Winnipeg, is enhanced, and one of the best ways--[interjection] Some of the members say, even outside, as if maybe I should have put more emphasis on rural Manitoba, and I would never, never underestimate the importance of the trees in rural Manitoba. I have spent a great deal of time, I can assure all members in the Chamber, in rural Manitoba over the summer for a very noble cause, I must admit, and I have seen many, many trees in rural Manitoba--

An Honourable Member: Beating the bushes back.

Mr. Lamoureux: The member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) says, beating the bush. You know there is a lot of--yes, I guess, we could say we were beating the bush. Anyway, I am getting a bit somewhat off topic here.

Obviously, trees are important, both rural and in the city of Winnipeg, but I was actually talking about what was happening in the riding which I represent, where we actually have trees that are being planted where the city enters into agreements, in some cases, with developers so that when a new division is coming into being--and hopefully we will see more trees being brought in. Having said that, Madam Speaker, we see more of a proactive approach at planting trees, and I think that is encouraging because, in the long term, it is important that we develop, as a community, not only in terms of people and jobs, but also there is a very strong environmental aspect to trees that has to be respected. The planting and further enhancement of trees within the city of Winnipeg is very important to a great deal of citizens that live in the city of Winnipeg, so--[interjection] What did he say? [interjection] Elk enjoy trees? Elk farming is a completely different topic, and I will not venture into elk farming. We will have another opportunity to talk about elk farming.

Madam Speaker, I know that there are some that were wanting to get on into possibly debating resolutions, and I do not really want to take too much time up on this particular piece of legislation. But do you know something? I do believe that what the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) is attempting to get across by introducing this piece of legislation is indeed admirable, and I do believe, ultimately, that instead of, as usual, the government standing up and concluding debate and then, like our health bill, never really being debated upon, that in fact the government will allow for this particular piece of legislation to go to committee.

After all, under these new rules that we have, there was one shortcoming in the sense that the Private Members' Business was really never addressed. Hopefully, as a gesture of good will from the government, it would be encouraging to see the government acknowledge that there is more meaning to private members' hours than just listening to individuals stand up and throw comments, in the sense that we will also allow for resolutions and bills to be able to pass. That is something that is important. It also provides all members, not only on the opposition side but also on the government side, to feel optimistic in the sense that if they do introduce a bill, there is a chance that that particular bill will pass. We do not give enough legitimate attention to the process of private members' hour.

Anything that can be done to further enhance private members' hour should be done. A good way to be able to demonstrate that sense of good will would be for the government to acknowledge Bill 205 as a positive contribution, a very positive one from the member for Wolseley, and that that bill should in fact pass through to committee stage.

With those few words, Madam Speaker, I believe that we are prepared to allow the bill to pass into committee stage. Thank you.

Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Firstly, I want to take this opportunity to thank the member for Wolseley for raising a very important issue in this Legislature, the issue of Dutch elm disease and the impact it is having on our urban forest. [interjection]

Well, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) referred to an earlier incarnation of myself, and I might say that that issue has long been in front of bodies politic in the City of Winnipeg and in the Legislature of Manitoba and indeed, I suppose, even to some members of Parliament, that Dutch elm disease is beginning to significantly erode our urban forest, that Dutch elm disease is slowly taking its toll. While the opportunity to control and contain that disease, Madam Speaker, is significant in cost, at least it has done that. It has, in fact, accomplished the fact that we are able to control it much more than actually most other cities have ever been able to do.

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I can tell you that my aunt, for instance, lives in Rochester, New York, upstate New York, right across the lake from Toronto. Madam Speaker, when I was a kid visiting my aunt in Rochester, New York, the street that she lived on, Merchants Road, was lined with beautiful big elm trees. I returned there, oh, maybe 20 years ago, and it was absolutely denuded. There was not one tree left, and that occurred right across the northern United States, right up to Minneapolis, and then, of course, the disease came down through the watershed to Manitoba.

It is actually very, very sad to see. I can remember as a kid playing amongst those beautiful elm trees in the summertime in upstate New York, and those are all gone. Every single one of those trees, beautiful trees, hundreds of years old, is gone. Yet you can go to England, for instance, Madam Speaker, and see 300- and 400-year-old elm trees that are magnificent trees and something that I hope ultimately we will be able to have here in Manitoba. Obviously, none of us here are going to see that--[interjection] We are not likely to see 300-year-old trees here. There may well be 300-year-old trees in a couple of hundred years time; we just will not be here to see them.

But the fact of the matter is that I hope for future generations, for this city and this province, that those trees are there and that we have to do what we can to ensure their preservation. Madam Speaker, when you see Winnipeg in the summertime from the air--I mean, most people who see it for the first time really do not believe what they are seeing--when they fly over Winnipeg in the summertime, coming into the airport here, and take a look at the kind of tree canopy that we have in this city, it is unbelievable. I do not know how many people have commented to me about the fact that we have this beautiful tree canopy, that we have this wonderful urban forest, one that is the envy of a great many cities, I can tell you.

The preservation, of course, as the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) has indicated, is predicated on several things, and I must say when she referred to earlier city councillors, she mentioned Sandy Hyman. She did not mention me, because the initiative with respect to--and I am not looking to toot my own horn or having myself patted on the back. I honestly and very sincerely believe in this issue, and I listened very carefully to what the words of the honourable member for Wolseley were with respect to this issue because I think it is extremely important.

During the late 1970s, when I was a member of the City of Winnipeg Council, we took a number of initiatives to try and deal with this very important problem--the disease, first of all, and the fact that sanitation, pruning, getting rid of the dead branches which these horrid little beasts inhabit, that carry the Dutch elm disease, the elm bark beetle. Madam Speaker, to get rid of those immediately is the most important thing you can do in terms of containment.

Subsequently, Madam Speaker, we also have to look at the unfortunate part, that we are going to lose some of these wonderful elm trees, and we have to look at replacement stock. Now, until we find a cure or something that will prevent Dutch elm disease from attacking the mature tree population, it is not very sound practice, I do not think, to look at developing new nursery stock of elm trees. We have to look for something that is a little bit different. The City of Winnipeg started putting away money back in the late '70s with respect to creating mature tree stock, so that when a tree does die and has to be removed, we are at least not going to put something an inch in diameter up there that anybody with a hockey stick can knock over or bikes can ride over, whatever, and it becomes severely damaged. We have to be able to replace those trees with something of significant size so that they will survive in a fairly harsh environment for a tree, I might add, when you look at automobiles and trucks and snow clearing and salt and all of the things that occur on our street system where these trees are planted. So we had to create something of a new tree stock, and significant amounts of money were put away at that time. I am not sure whether they are still doing that or not, but there were at least a number of nurseries started where these trees could mature over time, so that we did have some replacement stock.

The other issue, of course, related to the fact that we have to do something about the disease itself. We have to create the kind of research environment that--and Lord knows there are many, many things that affect the human race on this planet, including its environment, that need research, and Lord knows we have lots of human diseases that need a lot of money for research. Madam Speaker, but at least for the soul, research into the Dutch elm disease, I think, is something that ought to be pursued, and we have in fact created that opportunity.

The former Minister of Natural Resources was extremely helpful and confident. We did have a little glitch there at one time with respect to the funding, but it got resolved. The fact of the matter is that spending of money with respect to research for Dutch elm disease and the continuing funding for the sanitation program for the containment phase are two things that I strongly support. I do not think there is probably a member in this House that does not support that issue. I mean, this is a very motherhood type of issue, but, nonetheless, I think extremely important for the benefit of our city and for the beauty of our city and for something that really surprises an awful lot of folks who visit here for the first time particularly. Those who return and return, of course, continue to admire the urban forest that we enjoy.

I was raised on a street, Moorgate Street as a matter of fact, in Deer Lodge, just west of the Deer Lodge Hospital, and I saw young elm trees planted on our boulevard. As a matter of fact it was my father who planted them, these two spindly little saplings. Today those spindly little saplings, Madam Speaker, are probably 60 or 70 feet high and are, I would say, a foot and a half or so in diameter, beautiful trees. Those trees, of course, go right down the street from Portage Avenue right north to the airport, so that it is not just those forefathers from the early 1900s who planted them in the Wolseley area or the River Heights area or the Crescentwood area, but in fact they were continuing to be planted right through the 1940s and early 1950s. So that those trees today that are 50 years old, shall we say, are very significant and very beautiful trees, providing the same kind of shade canopy over that street that I grew up on--not quite nearly as big as the ones in the older parts of the city, but, nonetheless, equally as beautiful.

So I say, I commend the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) for bringing this issue forward, because it is important that we all stop for a moment from time to time and recognize the kind of wonderful urban forest that we do have, particularly, the elm trees and the fact that they are endangered. We cannot simply ignore them. We have to, and I would suggest to my colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Driedger), that we need to pursue further protection where we can to ensure that the elm trees, not just the publicly owned elm trees on the boulevards of our city, Madam Speaker, but also the thousands and thousands of privately owned elm trees on private property throughout the city.

In many cases because of the nature of the tree, the fact that it is 60, 70, 80 feet high and a very large tree, makes it almost impossible for the individual to look after, to be able to take the necessary action in the containment phase, if nothing else. Certainly if there is a treatment becomes available that is going to be as significantly expensive as the current treatments that are questionable as to whether they are really adequate, then we have to maybe look at a situation of assistance to those people. While the tree is resident on their property and they in fact own it, the fact of the matter is, those trees really form part of the public milieu even though they are on private property.

I think some assistance with respect to the containment problems and the work that is necessary in that case, or in the future, if the research that is being done does develop some assistance, then we will have to look at that as well, but for the preservation of those trees in our province and in our city, in particular, I can tell you--I do not know how much time I have left, Madam Speaker, but I have a family resident on a farm just outside of Carman, Manitoba, in the great constituency of Morris, and that farm has an 80-acre woodlot on it in which the house and other buildings are situated. There are several hundred mature elm trees on that piece of property, along with some mature maple and some mature ash, and we are talking trees that are 100 years old or more. Those trees are also in danger, as they are elsewhere in the province, because of the fact that the Dutch elm disease does not restrict itself to any one particular area, but it is, as a matter of fact, spreading.

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Here in the city of Winnipeg, we are fortunate in that the city forester and the City of Winnipeg have been able to put significant resources, along with the resources provided through the provincial government, toward the containment of Dutch elm disease. That is not always available in rural Manitoba, and, unfortunately, there are wonderful stands of these trees that are going to be in significant danger as the disease spreads.

So, Madam Speaker, I say the issue is an important one that we all have to address, one we all have to really think about from time to time, because without that interest by the public of Manitoba, you know, despite the initiatives of some groups that the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) did mention earlier, without the commitment of the entire community, we are going to lose that wonderful natural resource. I could not help but note that the member for Wolseley said that it was 10 degrees cooler in Wolseley under the elm trees, and I said, I hoped that only occurred in the summertime and not in January, because I would not want to inflict additional drops in temperature on anyone, in particular.

So, Madam Speaker, I think, over time, we need to advance to ensure that we have protection for our urban forest, our elm trees, and that we look forward to other ways and means of ensuring their survival and continued growth for the benefit of future generations. Thank you.

Hon. Brian Pallister (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, I just wanted to put a few brief comments in support of the spirit of this bill that the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) has brought forward and allow the member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau), who I believe wants to make some comments as well, to do so, but I think that certainly, from a personal perspective, having grown up in rural Manitoba and grown up on a farm--

An Honourable Member: Did you ever grow up?

Mr. Pallister: I did; I grew up, as opposed to some. But, in any case, I would like to share just a little personal background with the members of the House in terms of my affinity for the beautiful elm tree. It is a statuesque tree, and it is one that I have a great deal of love for.

On our farm, my father, in the yardsite where I was born and raised, along with my brother and sister, he planted over 1,500 elm trees the year that my dad and my mom married. They planted them as a shelter belt around the farmyard, and I have great memories, as a young boy, of playing in under those elms and running down the rows and playing the various imaginary games that young boys play, and young girls play, on the farms as they grow up.

I can remember, as the member alluded to, the joy of coming in out of a hot summer day and getting in under that umbrella of shelter on the farm, that was a satisfying thing. Also the shelter belt, of course, provided many other forms of life, the opportunity to grow up in proximity to the farmyard. So we were visited frequently by the beautiful songbirds that find their homes and raise their families in those trees, and the other animal life which sometimes on the farm is pleasant and sometimes not so pleasant. I can recall a number of occasions. My mother with chagrin resenting the presence of racoons around her garden towards the end of the summer as they tended to know just precisely when things would ripen and be ready to be harvested. They would beat Mom by a day or two a lot of the time. So it was not always an upside having elms that close, I suppose, but for the most part it was something that we as young children growing up on the farm really appreciated.

I guess the significance with which I hold the elm is mixed joy and sadness, because it just so happens that the year that my dad passed away was the year that the elm tree shelter belt had to be knocked down. It was just getting too ridden with Dutch elm, and it was beginning to spread, as you know happens in these shelter belts, and without the precautions that we have taken in many urban settings to try to prevent the spread of this disease, which is really a sad and horrible disease because it lessens the presence in our province of one of the most beautiful trees that we do have, we had to push that shelter belt down that year. It was not much fun taking away what had been a labour of love for my dad, certainly, and what had been a real good asset to our farmyard for many years as well.

Something else that I think we should not lose sight of is the economic benefits that are provided, not just to farm residences or to farms themselves from the shelter belt use but also in the urban setting from a landscape perspective. I do not have the literature today in the House to share with members, but I do recall reading literature which put the value of landscape of one single mature elm tree on a yard in the area of, I believe, $3,000 or $4,000. There is considerable value to be affixed to a tree of that size on a landscape. But someone who is doing a bit of landscaping now at our home, I really look forward to the day some 30 years hence when there will be some mature trees on our yard.

Further to that, I guess, I want to also say that in terms of the shelter belt use there is a line that says the best time to plant a tree is 30 years ago; second best time is today. We took that approach when I was involved with a community group in Portage in terms of pursuing shelter-belt programs between the city of Portage la Prairie and the city of Winnipeg. I think for anyone who travels the Trans-Canada Highway on a regular basis, they know that particular piece of highway is one of the most dangerous, frankly, in the wintertime and one of the least accessible areas of our Trans-Canada Highway, I am told by truckers, that we have. What we have needed, of course, was for 30 years ago people had the wisdom to plant trees. Failing that, what we have worked on today, and of course this government, and I know members opposite support this initiative too, have worked on planting hundreds of miles of shelter belt just in the last two or three years in that area.

Of course, it is not enough to just throw down a shelter belt along a highway and think that is going to stop every travesty of the nature that is part of living in Manitoba. It does not work that way. You have to plant a grid of shelter belts, and that is exactly what is going on on both the north and south sides of the Trans-Canada Highway through that strip, hundreds of miles of shelter belts going up. But I think it is fair to observe that the elm tree is, of course, not one that we are using for shelter belts these days for a number of good practical reasons. I believe the predominant tree of choice that we have been using in the new shelter belt plantings that have taken place along the Trans-Canada, principally between the White Horse area around St. Francois Xavier and towards the Oakville area, is principally green ash.

Green ash is one that is favoured these days because, although it is a hardy tree, as the elm we used to think was, it does not tend to compete so much with surface crops and for surface moisture, and it also has a quality of being able--if it is planted at appropriate intervals, it has the ability to allow snow to not congregate under it. Some farmers rue the day that they planted coniferous trees for shelter belts because what happened was, of course, they created mountains of snow on their property and in the spring ended up with differential seeding and cultivation practices as a consequence of that. What the green ash does is it allows the snow to congregate but over a dispersed area, a wider area.

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It is also interesting to know, and I learned about the process of dealing with projects of this nature, such as the shelter belt thing, that there is always a reason to put off planting a tree. There is always a reason to put off doing a project, I suppose, that should have been done years ago. First of all, you are attacked because, well, it should have been done before, should it not, but the problem here was that there were all kinds of reasons potentially that we would have problems with getting shelter belts put up.

Arguments were put forward that sound kind of ridiculous in restating them, but there are people who believe that it was better not to have shoppers be able to get away from Portage, and we had that argument made at the Chamber of Commerce by some business people who thought that it was better to have people, I guess, captive in your own communities, the kind of the attitude some of the members opposite take when we talk about trade deals and things like that, I think. Keep them captive here and they are bound to shop at home. Well, the argument is not really a solid one, but it was made.

Other people made the argument that we should not plant too many trees too close to the highway because what it would do is it would cause the highway to have to get snow shovelled off it more often, because naturally the trees would stop the snow on the highway. With the right kinds of design, that does not have to happen, but that was a concern and a honest concern that had to be dealt with in the undertaking of that project as well.

Another concern that was raised by some was that because the land, of course, is privately held, and the farmers and families who own the land have to co-operate in the planting of these trees, that they might not want to. Well, what we found out when that was raised was that no one had asked them, and when we asked the owners of the land in that region, over 80 percent of them said, absolutely, they would support it, and they also offered to assist whether it be in planting or the ongoing maintenance of the trees. Now, that is critical, of course, because as we know, a shelter belt can be wiped out in no time at all by the indiscriminate practices of farmers or of crop dusters, and these are concerns as well. When you put so much time, effort and money into creating a shelter belt, you want to preserve that shelter belt for the purposes it was intended.

That being said, I just want to share that perspective with you and say that I recognize the elm tree is something that has suffered in numbers in our province; I know that all members of this House place great value in it. In the last two or three years, I have engaged in a personal project that has given me a great deal of enjoyment. In going out to the farm where I was raised, I have carved out now about four miles of hiking and cross-country ski trails through the bush. A lot of it is virgin bush. It is hard work, but it is enjoyable. But one of the hardest things is dealing with a dead tree which is in your path when you are trying to clear a walk. I try to avoid those whenever possible. The problem, of course, with the elm, is that chopping down a dead tree is much more dangerous than chopping down a live one, frankly, and as the former Minister of Health will attest, I believe, I think he had a run-in with a tree some years ago--very, very dangerous.

In particular with these trails, I had noticed that, when you are chopping the trees down, you have to be careful, in particular if the tree has already been felled. We had tornado-force winds go through our area a couple of years ago, and it took down a number of trees, in kind of no particular pattern, one over top of the other. When you cut through one, you have to be very careful that it is not holding down one underneath; this is something that I learned first hand. I was fortunate because the tree that I cut was only holding down a cranberry bush, so I took a face full of cranberries, as opposed to something larger or sharper. I was very lucky.

This brings us to the issue of disposal of the elm trees. When you have a dead elm tree, I understand there are a number of procedures that should be followed. I only understand some of the basic ones, but I do believe it is essential that any member of the public follow these rules and regulations when they are dealing with the disposal of a dead elm tree. I understand that in terms of moving the tree that you can transfer the disease with it if you chop an elm tree up for firewood, which I do not know why anyone would do that.

An Honourable Member: Why not?

Mr. Pallister: Well, my experience with firewood is that there are certain types of wood that burn rather well, but it has been said of the elm tree that it burns--and I do not want the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) to take this personally--but I understand it burns colder than a witch's heart, you know, the elm. It does not produce a lot of heat and it is not much good as opposed to other kinds. Oak, for example, oak tree, ash are better, most fireplace enthusiasts tell me, for firewood. [interjection] Well, there you have it. So the disposal, the transfer, the timing and the de-barking that is necessary to ensure that this wood is not going to be perpetuating problems and causing more elm trees to be lost, this is very important, and I guess I just want to make sure that we all encourage those who are dealing with the diseased trees to do so with a maximum degree of care possible.

With that, I appreciate the time of the House, and I will give the other members the opportunity to put some comments on the record. Thank you.

Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Madam Speaker, I would thank the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) for bringing forward this motion. In my community, I must say that we have a large number of trees. I see that I have not a lot of time this evening, but I am sure I can carry this on again when this matter is again before the House.

In my community, we have a large number of elms, as I know the member is aware. I still remember when I was growing up we had the elm trees in our yard. They were our climbing trees. They were the place we played and, as of today, I know the trees are no longer there at my old homestead in St. Norbert. They have all disappeared. We planted new trees back 15 years ago to replace them, but the elms are not there.

Back when I was on City Council, the Dutch elm disease problem came up a number of times and, specifically, I had concerns because we were losing a large number of our trees along the riverbank. In the riverbank bottom forest that we had--it was known as Sherwood Forest at the time--there was a developer who was going to develop it. We were able to, as City Council, buy the land and turn it into a natural park so that it will be there for the future generations.

Madam Speaker, it is interesting when you go through that river-bottom forest to see not only the elm trees, but the big cottonwoods that are 150 years old that are starting--

An Honourable Member: That is close to your age.

Mr. Laurendeau: That is right; it is getting very close to my age, but they are starting to suffer. It is interesting, we had the Green Team who was working along the riverbank this year, and the Green Team had an opportunity to experience what Dutch elm was about and also what the beaver population was doing to the trees along the river. The beavers were chewing up a good number of trees and, in some cases, 70- and 80-year-old trees. The Green Team was able to go and put wires and protect a large number of these trees, and I would like to commend them for the work that they had done in my community.

As we move down to the northern portion of my community, along the dike and along the river ways, we have again by our community club all the trees. As we move into Fort Richmond, we have Kings Park, Madam Speaker, which is a very large component within the city and I think that has been protected over the years. I think it is important to say if we had not taken the steps as government to put the dollars we did into preserving those trees, they would not be there today.

One of the problems though, Madam Speaker, is access to some of the private lands where some of these trees are, and today under the rules we do not have access to some of those properties, and every time there is a flood, every time the water comes up, those trees come along and in a natural course take and infect other trees further down throughout the city, all the way down to Selkirk. The disease has flowed from the United States all the way through, all the way from Iowa, and it has killed all the trees along the riverbanks. We are lucky that here in Manitoba we have been attempting to preserve them. If you go to the East, there are no more elm trees. They are gone.

An Honourable Member: Same with Minneapolis-St. Paul. They are all gone.

Mr. Laurendeau: That is right. They are all gone to the South as well, and it is important that we put in place regulations and legislation that will protect those trees for future generations.

So, Madam Speaker, the penalty clause that the member is bringing forward is more in the transportation and storage of the wood. It is an important area, but we also have to look at what we are doing with some of the hard products. At this time, again, there was a green team out in the St. Boniface area that was chopping up the elm trees and actually splitting them into boards. You might have seen some of the sawmill that they have established. The bug itself or the disease is not in the hardwood. It is just under the bark on the surface of the tree, so once they have peeled it back and burned the bark and cleaned it off, the wood itself is still good. So I think it is important that we look at other areas of saving some of that hardwood. Some of that hardwood can be used for a number of other construction projects throughout different communities.

As we move ahead, Madam Speaker, it is important that we find a means of saving them for future generations. I must commend the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen). We have a beautiful treeline in this city. I have flown into many cities, and there is no city more beautiful than Winnipeg when you come in and you have all the trees. People think it is a very well-forested area.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. When this matter is again before the House, the honourable member for St. Norbert will have 11 minutes remaining.

The hour being 5:30 p.m., this House is adjourned and stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow (Wednesday).