COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

(Concurrent Sections)

LABOUR

Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Ben Sveinson): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Labour.

Does the honourable Minister of Labour have an opening statement?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Labour): Yes, I do, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to present the 1995-96 Estimates of the Department of Labour. I hope my opening statement will give members an informative outline of the funding needs and main activities of my department. I look forward to working with the labour and management partners of the department to strengthen labour-management relations and public safety in our province.

Although the House was not sitting when I was appointed Minister of Labour on May 9, members may recall that just after I took office one of the most esteemed members of my staff, J.R. Matheson, died of cancer after 27 years of service in the Fire Commissioner's office, the last five of them as the Fire Commissioner.

J.R., as everyone called him, was highly regarded both by his colleagues in Manitoba and his counterparts across Canada who elected him vice-president of the Canadian Association of Fire Commissioners and Fire Marshals. After his family, his first love was the fire service to which he brought a great spirit and enthusiasm. J.R. was a doer, a man who could and did make things happen by sheer force of character and will. He was a big man with big plans for his service and a big heart. He will be missed.

I would like to express my thanks and appreciation to my staff for their dedication and their service to Manitobans under the capable direction of my deputy minister, Tom Farrell. I have had an opportunity to meet with many of the staff, and I am impressed with their knowledge of and commitment to the department.

With respect to the operations of my department, Mr. Chairman, for 1995-96 we are requesting a total of approximately $16.7 million. This is a reduction of .5 percent from the previous fiscal year. The department recovers a significant proportion of its annual expenditures through various sources of revenue. This year we expect to recover about 69 percent of our total budget in this way.

Our staffing allocation has been reduced by two staff years in administrative support. As in previous years, Mr. Chairman, the department was able to avoid layoffs through successful management of vacancies.

We are also very fortunate to have the benefit of outside advice and expertise from public-spirited Manitobans who serve on a number of advisory boards attached to the department. I would like to acknowledge their contributions and thank them for their time and service to Manitoba.

I will refer to the work of a few of these boards more specifically, Mr. Chairman. At this point, one comes to mind. Earlier this year it was announced that Manitoba's minimum wage would be increased, effective July 1 of this year and on January 1, 1996. The Minimum Wage Board carried out extensive consultations in order to ensure that public input was provided on this important policy issue. The decision to raise the minimum wage to $5.40 an hour in two stages took into account the advice we are given. The increase represents a very reasonable balance between the needs of employees and the need to maintain jobs in Manitoba.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to touch briefly on some of the activities of the Manitoba Labour Management Review Committee in the past year, specifically of some of the subcommittees. The health sector working group continues its work of ensuring that essential service agreements are negotiated to cover work disruptions in health care institutions. The arbitration advisory group is concentrating its efforts on developing and providing a training program for arbitrators.

Some time ago the Minister of Labour asked the Labour Management Review Committee to make recommendations to improve The Construction Industry Wages Act. The committee made a detailed study and identified a number of important issues for the attention of the minister. I will study the report and its recommendations and will bring them forward to cabinet for its consideration.

Mr. Chairman, since 1991 my department has been in the forefront of practical reforms to improve our operations. The department's continuous improvement activities focus on improving our service to clients, ensuring an appropriate working environment for staff and achieving efficiency in program operations. I am pleased to note that Treasury Board has extended our delegated authorities, which makes it possible to manage programs effectively. We have met all major conditions of operating under delegated authority and in addition have had our practices reviewed by the Provincial Auditor.

As a further step in support of accountability reporting, the department has developed a new program performance framework. It will help us to assess performance of programs and services by measuring the achievement of results against performance targets. In this fiscal year we are focusing on implementing continuous improvement more fully throughout the department and using this new framework to measure our performance as I just have outlined.

In the Workplace Safety and Health division, Mr. Chairman, one of our major challenges has been to improve the understanding of The Workplace Safety and Health Act. The Workplace Safety and Health Branch conducted a survey of Manitoba employers who attended two conferences held last winter, the Manitoba Safety Council conference and Construction Safety Conference. The survey objective was to find out how the branch could improve service to workers and management in small business. The branch discovered that just over half the employers want help in interpreting the act and most want more written information about the legislation. We are exploring several ways of developing new materials, including collaboration with the Canadian Federation of Independent Business.

Early this spring, our mines inspectors began enforcement of a revised mine regulation that was passed last year. The new regulation covers a number of advances in mining technology, improved standards in key areas such as underground storage of fuel and expands the role of workplace safety and health committees.

I am pleased to note that the revisions resulted from the work of a tripartite industry-worker-government committee. In addition, a standing committee has been appointed to review the regulations on an ongoing basis. Our Occupational Health Branch has benefited from a co-operative relationship with the Workers Compensation Board in two initiatives now in progress.

Together with field staff of my colleague the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae), the branch is in the second year of a pilot research project to collect and analyze data on farm-related injuries and illnesses. The project, funded by a grant from the board, also involves a medical officer of health from the Central Region and physicians from Morden, Notre Dame de Lourdes and Winkler. We think this project could produce significant findings. We know that agriculture is a high-risk and high-stress occupation, and this field has not been extensively studied in Manitoba.

The board has also assisted the branch in making available its claims data for use in epidemiological purposes. The branch has been analyzing this material to give our safety and health officers company-specific and sector-specific accident trends. This will help in directing preventative action to high-risk areas and making more efficient use of resources. The objective is to bring about permanent change in the workplace, which will require a considerable effort by both management and workers. It is our experience that where there is a commitment to safety and health at senior levels, there is generally a successful program in that workplace.

In turning to the Labour Services Division, I would like to touch briefly on a process started in 1991 to review our public safety legislation, consisting of eight acts and 15 regulations. An extensive multistage consultation process has been completed, involving two consultation papers and three days of public hearings. I will be studying this area as well and considering future action.

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Mr. Chairman, one of the most important public safety components of my department is the Office of the Fire Commissioner. I am very proud to report on their achievements in both the training and education fields. Over the years, the number of fatalities from fires has declined in Manitoba. I think this is a result of both higher fire safety standards and increased awareness by Manitobans of facts about and dangers from fires. The Office of the Fire Commissioner has worked hard to educate Manitobans of all ages about fire safety, and the public education section has received an international award for its contribution to the Learn Not To Burn program.

They have also been nominated for membership on the National Fire Protection Association education committee. A public education fire service officer has been seconded to the Winnipeg Fire Department for two years to help plan and implement the Learn Not To Burn program in Winnipeg school divisions. The office has expanded the scope of the program and of the children's Nero and Ashcan fire safety series by translating the materials into French. In addition, a public education officer based in Brandon has been hired to serve western Manitoba.

The high standards of the training programs in the Manitoba fire college were recognized through accreditation of seven programs last summer by the International Fire Service Accreditation Congress. The college is working on having four more programs ready for accreditation by the end of this fiscal year.

This accreditation, Mr. Chairman, has resulted in the kind of recognition of which we can all be proud. The college receives phone calls from fire chiefs wanting to hire graduates from college programs because the programs are accredited. The expanded fire college facilities were officially opened last fall and are expected to allow for an increased number of training programs offered by the college. For instance, the college now offers two pre-employment classes.

Mr. Chairman, the activities of the Conciliation and Mediation Branch have helped maintain Manitoba's good labour relations climate. Last year, the branch was successful in resolving 80 percent of the 305 grievance mediation assignments undertaken. Also, 96 percent of 166 conciliation cases affecting 14,000 employees were resolved without a work stoppage. Four conciliation cases under The Public Schools Act were handled, involving 1,160 teachers. All of them were settled before arbitration.

Last year, the branch entered a new field, prevention mediation. This involved workshops and acting as facilitators in mutual gains interest-based negotiations with several employers, one of which was Manitoba Hydro. These activities will be continued according to interest and demand.

For the past dozen years the Mechanical and Engineering branch has been moving to a four-year cycle for renewal of trade licences, and the transformation will be completed this year. This year, licences for first- to fourth-class power engineers were issued under the new cycle. When licences are renewed for the rest of this group next November, this process will be completed. The change increases the efficiency of the renewal process and reduces the time needed to carry it out.

Mr. Chairman, the Manitoba Pension Commission has moved into line with most other Canadian jurisdictions with respect to investment and loan of pension plan assets. We used to have a highly prescriptive list of investment procedures that plans and financial institutions had to follow. This made it hard for plan sponsors and Manitoba-based financial institutions to compete in the marketplace.

Accordingly, in response to submissions from the industry, we have adopted the prudent person standard for these investments. These will increase opportunities for plans to earn high returns and will make plan sponsors more accountable for their investment decisions.

The commission has been very pleased with both the public and institutional response to the introduction of the Life Income Fund and locked-in retirement account. Initially staff of the commission worked closely with trust and insurance companies to ensure that these traditional sponsors understood the rules of the new pension vehicles.

More recently, however, Mr. Chairman, the staff have been assisting banks and credit unions, since these institutions are now moving into those fields. Last year, 11 workshops were given to credit union and bank staff to acquaint them further with the operations of these new products. The LIF and LIRA were introduced in response to consumer interest and have proven to be quite popular. As of June 1995, 46 financial institutions in Manitoba were offering them to members and the public.

Turning to the Employment Standards division, Mr. Chairman, the Employment Standards Branch is one that has a heavy level of public inquiries since it deals with such fundamental matters as wages, vacation pay and hours of work. The branch has improved client service by introducing a quick resolution process to speed up resolution of less complex claims. Last year more than 400 claims were handled through this process resulting in resolution in nearly one-third less time.

The branch is working with the Electrical Contractors Association of Manitoba and the Construction Labour Relations Association to assess, promote, and ensure compliance with The Construction Industry Wages Act in that industry. This has involved a comprehensive review still in progress of all of Manitoba's electrical contractors with employers. It is evaluating the level of compliance with the wage schedules outlined in the act and a number of meetings with interested parties.

The Labour Adjustment unit has made good progress in its work to provide displaced workers with workforce adjustment services. The unit has been heavily involved in a worker adjustment committee which successfully negotiated the establishment of a storefront worker action centre in Winnipeg. The centre is staffed by a full-time employment co-ordinator. It provides employment counselling, resume assistance, re-employment assistance, educational upgrading and workplace-based training.

The unit entered into 11 new labour-management committee agreements last year and continued with 18 others during the fiscal year. In total, the unit provided services to more than 2,200 affected workers. The unit also completed community-based and worker adjustment agreements in the single industry towns of Snow Lake and Flin Flon. Through these agreements more than 1,400 workers were assisted over a three-year period in such areas as re-employment, educational upgrading, retraining and relocation.

In the Worker Advisor office, Mr. Chairman, I am happy to note that several initiatives have resulted in enhanced level of service to clients. Given the sensitive nature of work, assisting clients of the Workers Compensation Board, the office has made a significant advance in reducing the waiting time. On average, personal contact with clients is made within two to four weeks of initial contact. Besides improving service to all clients of the office, this is important for making possible quicker identification of persons at risk and early intervention to assist clients when it is needed. In addition, the office is assisting the board in developing a protocol to deal with especially sensitive claims such as sexual assault claims.

This completes my opening statement, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the Minister of Labour for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for Transcona have any opening statements?

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Yes, Mr. Chairperson, I do.

That was quite an opening statement the minister made for his first time as a new minister here for the Department of Labour. Unfortunately, I do not have the experience and the staff available to me to make such extensive opening comments as well, but I will confine my comments to--

An Honourable Member: He did this himself.

Mr. Reid: Well, perhaps he did do some of this work himself, but I must compliment the staff the minister has here today that will be advising him on the efforts they have made on the minister's behalf, I am sure.

First, I would like to thank the minister in the very beginning of his opening comments for recognizing the services of J.R. (John) Matheson who was the Fire Commissioner for the province of Manitoba. Mr. Matheson was a resident of the community of Transcona, a lifelong resident of Transcona. I had the opportunity to represent the community at his funeral services at the beginning of this month and it was a very sad day indeed for his family, for the community, and, I am sure for the Fire Commissioner's office as well as for the Department of Labour.

We would like to recognize his accomplishments and to extend our condolences to his wife Gail, his sons Terry and Lynn, I believe, and to his daughter Roberta. I think those were the children of the family, and to recognize John's accomplishments on behalf of the youth of our community too, because that is a very significant role that he played in our community.

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He was the founder of the Transcona Railers Junior B hockey team and had a lifelong love of hockey and invested a great deal of time and effort into ensuring the success of that hockey team on behalf of the youth of that community. It was a very competitive team. I believe it did go to the national finals on one occasion, so it is a great credit to Mr. Matheson for his efforts.

Mr. Matheson was also, I believe, in the fire service since 1958 and, as the minister has indicated, I believe, served some five years as the Fire Commissioner, in acting or in full-time duties. So that was a great tribute to the individual for the accomplishments that he managed to achieve in his very short 59 years with us.

With respect to the Estimates, this is my first time in dealing specifically with the Department of Labour Estimates. For me, it is going to be a learning process. I know the Minister of Labour has some previous experiences of which we will get into some detail perhaps through the course of these Estimates.

I have several questions with respect to the functions of various portions of the department relating to The Construction Industry Wages Act, the minimum wage employment standards, unfair labour practices that we sense may be taking place through some of the ongoing labour disputes, labour-management disputes that are taking place within the province, and some questions in a general way to educate myself on some aspects of the department itself and to bring myself up to speed on the full range of activities that the department provides for the business people and for the working people of the province of Manitoba.

So with those few comments, Mr. Chairperson, I will save my questions for the section by section.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the critic from the official opposition for those remarks. Is it the will of the committee that the member for Inkster put some comments on the record?

Mr. Reid: I believe, Mr. Chairperson, that there is an ability for the member for Inkster to add comments at any points he likes. He is a member of this committee, as is any other MLA of the House, and he would have that opportunity to do so at any time.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: So be it. Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of a department. Accordingly, we shall defer consideration of this item and now proceed with consideration of the next line.

At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce his staff present.

Mr. Toews: I have with me now the deputy minister, Mr. Tom Farrell; the assistant deputy minister, Mr. Tom Bleasdale; Mr. Jim Nykoluk and Mr. Jim Wood, all from my department.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We are now on item 1.(b)(1) on page 111 of the Estimates book and on page 21 of the yellow supplement book.

Item 1. Labour Executive (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $266,300.

Mr. Reid: The minister referenced his staff. Unfortunately for myself, two, I am familiar with their work in the staff, and the other two are new to me. Perhaps the minister can give me some background on the two individuals, Mr. Nykoluk and Mr. Wood.

Mr. Toews: Mr. Nykoluk is the executive director of Management Services, and Mr. Jim Wood is the director of Financial Services.

Mr. Reid: I thank the minister for that information. In section 1.(b) of the Supplementary Estimates, Executive Support, there is a line showing--and I am going to deal, Mr. Chairperson, if it is all right, if it is the will of the committee to deal with those two sections together for the sake of expediency here, even though--

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: You are talking about (b)(1) and (2)?

Mr. Reid: Right. There has been a change in the--

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. Is it the will of the committee to deal with both those sections at one time? [agreed]

Mr. Reid: There has been a change in the overall dollar expenditures, about some $6,000, I believe. Can the minister explain, is that related directly to salary increases for merit purposes?

Mr. Toews: That simply reflects the negotiated increases. That does not reflect any merit increments--I am sorry--merit increments as well as the negotiated agreements.

Mr. Reid: I am unclear on this, then. Is there a negotiated increase? Government service employees, it is my understanding, just took a 10-day loss in days which have been commonly referred to as the Filmon Fridays, seven of which are going to be taken this summer and three at the Christmas period.

How is it that we have a wage increase for employees at this area?

Mr. Toews: That reflects the increments in each salary level that are negotiated. So the member is correct in his assessment of the collective agreement, but there still is movement within steps.

Mr. Reid: So then it is the range adjustments within those steps, like an AY2 that had certain levels and the same would apply to the employees in this department as well.

Mr. Toews: That is correct.

Mr. Reid: In the Other Expenditures, it is showing Other Operating expense. There has been a decrease there. Can you tell me what is covered under that heading, Other Operating?

Mr. Toews: Just a clarification. You indicated an increase or decrease?

Mr. Reid: Decrease.

Mr. Toews: I am advised that relates to the reduced travel costs.

Mr. Reid: I thank the minister for the information. Are there any vacancies within this area?

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Mr. Toews: Just a clarification. Is that vacancies generally in the--

Mr. Reid: Well, just to assist the minister, quite often what I do in Estimates is--it has been my experience that there have been vacancies for jobs not filled in various sections of departments for which I have been the critic, and I will be asking as we go through the Estimates process where there are vacancies that are existing within each of the minister's subdepartments. So if the minister has information available, it may ease the process somewhat if he just has that information on one list.

Mr. Toews: In respect of the entire department, I can advise the honourable member that the Office of the Fire Commissioner has two fire service officers vacant, one in Thompson and the other in Swan River, and the competitions are to be held later this summer in respect to those two positions.

In respect of Workplace Safety and Health, there is one mines engineer, one safety and health inspector, one part-time health nurse. It is a .4 or .5 position. It is a little less than half time there.

In respect to the Manitoba Labour Board, there is one board clerk. Again, the competition is in progress. I am under the advice that all of these are in the process of being filled through competition.

Mr. Reid: I have no further questions on this section.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 1.(b)(1) $266,300.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Chairperson, I do have a couple of questions I was wanting to ask the minister, but first just to comment in general about the Department of Labour and to acknowledge and congratulate the member for his appointment as Minister of Labour.

A couple of years back I used to be the critic of this particular area, so it always has been an interest on my part dealing with labour relations and trying to get an understanding of the department. Unfortunately, I did not have the portfolio that long, so I did not get as much in-depth information as I would have liked to have received, and once again, I am in a situation where I am just looking for some specific information.

To try to get a better understanding of the organization that makes up, if you will, or assists, I am looking in particular at the organizational--or the Schedule 2 on page 9. I am wanting to get again--because there is a number of boards that no doubt meet on a regular basis. Some of these might be ad hoc. I am wondering if the minister could give some sort of an opinion of the boards that are there. I am interested in a couple of them in particular, but just some sort of an opening remark on boards where there are appointments made from government. That would be boards and committees.

Mr. Toews: In respect of the boards, I would want to point out, first of all, that in many respects there is one board that is quite different from the other boards. That is the Manitoba Labour Board, and the chairperson of that board is Mr. John Korpesho.

The Manitoba Labour Board is a quasi-judicial board and makes its judicial decisions independent of government. It is based essentially on, or finds its jurisdiction in, the Manitoba Labour Relations Act and derives its powers through the Manitoba Labour Relations Act. If one goes across Canada, one will see boards of a very similar nature, again created through legislation with the primary purpose to foster good collective bargaining relationships between employees represented by unions on the one hand and employers on the other.

The basic principles on which those boards operate are fairly standard across Canada, but of course for each board decisions are affected by the specific legislation that governs them. The present act under which the Manitoba Labour Board operates was extensively amended in 1985 and was given many modern powers at that time to bring it in line with many of the other boards in Canada. The model, as I understand it--and I had the good fortune to be the lawyer for the Department of Labour and the Manitoba Labour Board at that time--was based on the Ontario Labour Relations Act, and again that act was very progressive and the government of the day decided to incorporate many of those concepts and ideas in order to streamline the decision-making process of the board.

The Manitoba Labour Board is a tripartite board which has an equal number of members representative of the views of employers and representative of the views of employees. It is very important to note that these are not nominees of employers or nominees of employees when they sit as a board, but in fact are representative of the general background of employers or employees. Many of these come from either a management background or a union background. There is a process by which the management representatives, if I can use that shortened version, are recommended to the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council and the employee representatives are recommended by the certain organizations as well for appointment by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council. The Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council appoints a chair, whom I mentioned is Mr. Korpesho, and I believe presently there are three or four vice-chairs.

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It is also very important to note that while the Manitoba Labour Board exercises powers under The Labour Relations Act, it also exercises powers under other acts, for example, The Employment Standards Act. Essentially, it is not sitting as the Labour Board in that situation; it is in effect sitting as the payment of wages appeal board. So an order, let us say, that is made by the director of employment standards will go from the director of employment standards to the Manitoba Labour Board sitting essentially as the payment of wages appeal board. I believe, again, that designation is by Order-in-Council.

In the context of The Payment of Wages Act, only one member need sit as opposed to the tripartite boards that sit on The Labour Relations Act matters. Also, it would be important to note that it acts as the appeal board under The Workplace Safety and Health Act. Therefore, for example, when a safety and health officer goes out, makes an order, and an employer or an employee disagrees with the order that is made, that order is appealed, first of all I believe the step is, to the director of Workplace Safety and Health and then if there is still dissatisfaction with the order made by the director, it goes to the Labour Board sitting as the appeal board under that particular act.

So there are various other acts that it administers: The Construction Industry Wages Act, The Workplace Safety and Health Act of course I have indicated, The Employment Standards Act, The Vacations with Pay Act.

So the jurisdiction, what I should probably say in summary, is a statutory jurisdiction, but is what is known as an inferior court as opposed to a court of superior jurisdiction. It is certainly not inferior in the sense of the service it provides to Manitobans, but in the sense that its jurisdiction is statutorily based.

Some of the other boards--I had the good pleasure of meeting with the Advisory Council on Workplace Safety and Health just yesterday. It has been quite a task getting to meet all of the boards and board members, and I have been trying to do that as quickly as possible. I am not making any excuses here. I am certainly responsible for the boards and for the department. So sometimes I may not be quite as familiar with all of these, but I had the good fortune to meet yesterday with the Advisory Council on Workplace Safety and Health.

This particular council advises and makes recommendations to the minister concerning Workplace Safety and Health issues generally, the protection of workers in specific workplace situations, the appointment of consultants and advisers to the minister, and essentially any other matter relating to Workplace Safety and Health in respect of which the minister seeks the opinion of the council.

The council plays a key role in the development of workplace legislation and regulations. Again, it has a representation from workers, if I can use that, and employers. So there will be management people and there will be representatives of unions on that very important council.

Some of the functions of the boards are more straightforward and, again, like the advisory council, does not perform judicial functions. It more performs advisory functions or assists in the administration of an act. For example, in that category I would place the Building Standards Board, the Power Engineers Advisory Board, the Elevator Board, the Gas Advisory Committee, again, making recommendations based on the national gas code, trade examination boards. These are boards that are set up to examine and license applicants to practise in the trades of power engineer, electrician, gas fitter and oil burner installation or repair person.

There is a very, very important board that I should not overlook, and I am trying to give you a quick summary of all these boards for your information. The very important board is the Labour Management Review Committee--maybe I should say committee. Again, this committee is comprised of representatives of business and labour, and this provides a forum for discussion of labour and management issues. The mandate of this particular committee is to promote a harmonious labour relations climate and to foster effective labour-management co-operation in support of economic stability and social well-being of Manitobans.

I know that is a tall order, but this is a board that has been in this province since perhaps 1964. I think it is unique to Manitoba, and I believe its first chair was Professor Woods, who, of course, wrote many reports, was very important in the development of modernization of labour relations acts across Canada.

So we have had the benefit of this committee's expertise in advising the government. You know, I have talked to many groups in the last little while and asking for their input and for their impressions as to how The Labour Relations Act and the committees are running, and I find that many people are very, very satisfied with the Labour Board, without saying that no changes are required. But, generally speaking, Manitoba's labour stability I think is in part due to the importance of not only our Labour Relations Act, which I find to be a very good act, and also the Labour Management Review Committee.

This has consistently given ministers good balanced advice, whereas in other provinces I think sometimes there is a tendency for the pendulum to swing to one end or the other, and that I think, with all due respect to people of a different view, has created a stable economic basis in Manitoba so that at least people looking to invest in Manitoba say, yes, this regime has been here for quite a while. There is input by management, input by workers into how the act should be developed or changed and therefore they can feel comfortable in terms of investing in Manitoba and making Manitoba a more prosperous province.

The construction industry wages boards, there are essentially three of these boards, and there is a Rural Building Construction Wages Board, the Heavy Construction Wages Board and the Greater Winnipeg Building Construction Wages Board.

Again, these boards recommend to the minister minimum wage rates and hours of work for the construction industry. This board, as many of the boards are, is chaired by Mr. Wally Fox-Decent. Mr. Wally Fox-Decent, the government is truly blessed with his talents by having him also act in the Labour Management Review Committee and also, I believe, the Advisory Council on Workplace Safety and Health.

An Honourable Member: Are we training anybody with him?

Mr. Toews: Well, the honourable member asks if we are training anyone else, and hopefully by this process here, we are training the members of the opposition, and perhaps one day they too can step into a position as important as that one.

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In any event, the construction industry wages boards deal with various schedules under the act which create different wage scales for construction industry workers in our province.

I would like to point out very briefly, it is a very, very difficult act to administer. I noted that the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) had indicated that The Construction Industry Wages Act was on his list to talk about or some of the boards, and I do not want to pre-empt anything being said there, but it is a very, very difficult act to administer.

This act has the particular characteristics of many people on what is traditionally seen as the same side of the fence, disagreeing about. So you will get employers disagreeing about whether we should have it or not. We will have union leaders disagreeing as to whether we should have it or not.

There are many philosophical arguments we can have, and I am sure, as in previous governments or previous ministers--and certainly this minister has a concern that we have to take steps to deal with this particular act. I certainly look forward to working with the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) and the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) in seeing if we can do something to rationalize, perhaps, the administration of that act.

Mr. Lamoureux: One of the primary reasons why I asked for that sort of a debriefing, if you like, is because when I go through different organizational charts from different departments, it seems that this particular department--you know, there are some, like the Department of Health, that would have more--but this one tends to have quite a few different boards or committees, advisory groups and so forth. I think that can be a very positive thing, depending on exactly what it is the nature and the missions of these boards and advisory committees, if you like.

I am very much interested--here we have these boards, and I know that there has been a great deal of discussion. For example, I will take the Minimum Wage Board, in terms of why it is that there was no discussion about increasing the minimum wage or how often boards will in fact meet. I can recall a couple of years ago, I believe--and I could be corrected on this--but I thought it was the Building Standards Board that was, for example, responsible for the fire codes. When the national government comes down with some fire code restrictions or new applications with respect to fire codes, I believe it is that particular committee that is responsible for reviewing, assisting and implementing and so forth, and a couple of years ago, there was a question mark in terms of why it is that the province of Manitoba seemed to be lagging behind.

We have a great number of vehicles to provide input and advice to the ministry. I am curious as to how often, if you like, these boards would actually meet. I do not necessarily expect to have a detailed answer right now because there is a finite amount of time--

An Honourable Member: There is also a section in the book for it.

Mr. Lamoureux: There are also different sections in the book that you could also raise questions with respect to this particular issue, but I do believe that it would be beneficial if the minister could get back, at some point in time, with reference to that.

The question that I was wanting to ask for today's purposes is again, the appointments. You make reference to the fact that the Manitoba Labour Board is an appointment through the L.G.'s office. How does the minister go about filling or making these recommendations, in not only that particular board but the other boards? Are there mandatory positions in some of the cases with the boards, from union reps and management reps? How is that process put into place?

I remember quite well the debates on the final offer selection, and I am sure the minister himself would be familiar with some of those debates that occurred. Labour can be very divisive, along with management, on legislative proposals. That is why I think it is important that boards and advisory groups that are established through this particular ministry do not only appear, but in real terms are working for the common good of the province and that would also be for the worker and the employer. Ultimately, I would argue, for example, no one benefits from a strike, and to promote harmony from within is important and, in order to do that, I think that the appointments that are made have to reflect that.

I would ask for the minister just to comment more specifically on his role, or the government's role on appointments versus those that would be mandatory, like MFL is entitled to these type of positions. I am a bit at a loss with respect to--

Mr. Toews: In some of these boards, as the member for Inkster has pointed out, there has been a protocol established with the Chamber of Commerce on the one hand and the Manitoba Federation of Labour on the other hand. That would be the Manitoba Labour Board. On some of the other boards there is no such protocol, but I would point out that especially, let us deal with the technical kinds of boards, there is a natural limitation.

You cannot just appoint anybody to these boards, especially where you are dealing with matters of public safety. So, even where there is a measure of discretion in the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council in respect of appointing these members, they have to be mindful of the professional qualifications that these board members must have. To do otherwise would be to simply undermine the effectiveness of these boards.

Perhaps in other departments where general social policies are discussed, in those types of boards it is more important, I guess, to have a broad cross section of people who can input into that decision making of those particular boards, but where you have power engineers advisory boards, it does not make much sense to load, if I could say, that board with people who know nothing about the area or who have no technical kind of background.

So, from time to time, there will be nontechnical people. That is clear, but the main mission of that board must be accomplished and that can only be accomplished through the appropriate appointment of board members. So technical qualifications play a great part in the appointment of some of these boards, and many of them are that way.

The Advisory Council on Workplace Safety and Health is a broad cross section of labour interests, management interests, professional interests and again many of these people are recommended by specific organizations, let us say the Mining Association or the Manitoba Federation of Labour. Again, they will bring forward a list or recommend a few appointments, and, from that, the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council makes the choice and determines who in fact will sit on that board.

So there was another point that the member raised which I think we have to also be very careful of. You look at all of these boards and you say, there are a lot of boards there. What I think we have to do is ensure that these boards are in fact performing a useful function. In my brief time as minister, but more so as my time as a lawyer for the Department of Labour, for the Manitoba Labour Board, for Workplace Safety and Health, for Workers Advisors, I was always impressed that the people working there had a specific, clear mandate. They knew why they were there, and I guess sometimes the frustration level is not that the boards are not sitting, it is that perhaps sometimes the board's recommendations are for one reason or another not followed through.

And again that is government prerogative in terms of developing policy. Now I must say that in the types of boards that we have, again the advice that has been given consistently has been very, very important, very many important reports have been brought forward and, because of the sometimes explosive nature of labour relations, you do not want to just make decisions in terms of amending The Labour Relations Act. Even if a committee says, this is the way we should go, it is sometimes important for staff to do further research into that area to bring information to these boards to say that perhaps such and such a recommendation would not be the best way to proceed.

(Mr. Mervin Tweed, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair).

But I think without exception the boards that you see in this structure here are membered by people who have a clear sense of what their purpose is. They are by and large professionals or technical people of one sort or another and bring the government of Manitoba and the people of Manitoba an incredibly large wealth of information and expertise that we then try to put into regulations or into legislation.

* (1740)

Mr. Lamoureux: I have found in the past that this can be a very politically divisive department in terms of opinions that come across the table, and picking up on the point, if you take a look at two boards, the Minimum Wage Board for example, and it seems to be more politically driven in terms of what minimum wage is going to be than it is in terms of something coming from recommendations from the Minimum Wage Board. I would be interested for example to know what would have then been the recommendation from the Minimum Wage Board over the years, in particular the years in which there was no increase.

Point of Order

Mr. Reid: On a point of order, Mr. Chairperson, I believe we agreed at the beginning of this Estimates process that we were going through the Estimates for the Department of Labour on a section-by-section basis. Now we have the member for Inkster referring to specific sections which we have yet to arrive at being dealt with at this point in time.

I ask that you call the member for Inkster to order until such time as he has the opportunity when we arrive at the section dealing with the minimum wages act.

Mr. Lamoureux: On the same point of order, just to alleviate the concerns of the member for Transcona, if he looks through the Executive Support and reads Objectives and Activity Identification and then reads Hansard in terms of types of questions that I have asked, I am not necessarily asking for specific breakdowns. What we are talking about is the relationship between the boards and the Minister of Labour, which I believe is most appropriate to be asking at this particular line. Where else would you ask questions about the organizational chart in its relationship with the department?

Mr. Reid: Minister's Salary.

Mr. Lamoureux: The member for Transcona suggests Minister's Salary. At that time, the minister does not have the support staff that would have some of the background information that he might require.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): As we are dealing with the Executive Support, the question should be in the Salaries and Employee Benefits for Other Expenditures. I would ask that questions be kept within that line.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, I am not sure. Are you saying that I cannot ask questions in regard to the organizational chart?

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): I think the questions should be dealing directly with Executive Support, Salaries and Employee Benefits and Other Expenditures, and I feel that you should deal with your issue under Minister's Salary.

Mr. Lamoureux: Well, Mr. Chairperson, I would disagree, and I guess that means we would be challenging the Chair. I look at it, and we are on item 1.(b). Is that correct?

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): Yes.

Mr. Lamoureux: Under 1.(b) Executive Support, the Objectives are to develop, implement and oversee departmental policies and programs which are designed to attain, over the long term, the goals set out in the department's role and mission statement.

I suggest that we take a look at the mission statement. Not having it at hand, I am sure you will find that it is fairly consistent with the line of questioning that I am asking. Under Activity Identification: Advises the minister on matters relating to labour. Provides overall policy direction for the department programs. I do not want to read verbatim the exact line.

If we take a look at what you are suggestion is in terms of asking specifically questions regarding to the money lines, I think that we would likely find that all of the different questions and answers that have been put forward, at least 50 percent of them, in all the other lines of Estimates would have been in all likelihood ruled out of order. I would like to be able to continue just asking some questions with respect to the organization chart and not have to challenge the Chair.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): We gave you some latitude. You have already said you are going to challenge the Chair and I will follow it through.

Is the member for Inkster challenging the ruling of the Chair?

Mr. Lamoureux: At this point, Mr. Chairperson, I would seek clarification. Am I not right in what I just finished articulating?

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): Is the member for Inkster challenging the ruling from the Chair?

Mr. Lamoureux: If the ruling forbids me to ask these questions, Mr. Chairperson, then I am definitely challenging the ruling of the Chair.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): Do you have a second member to support this challenge?

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, at this point in time there is not a second member that would--unless you want to canvass the room and see if there is a second member that would want to challenge the ruling of the Chair. Having said that, Mr. Chairperson, I would then ask what specific type of questions I can ask, even though I personally oppose the ruling of this particular Chair.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): Although you have some latitude in discussing this, we feel that it has been given to you and we suggest that it come up under Minister's Salary.

Mr. Lamoureux: With respect to what it is that you are saying, Mr. Chairperson, I am going to forego questions with respect to the organizational chart. I do find, however, that it is most unfortunate.

* * *

Mr. Lamoureux: I would ask the minister then, under Transportation on line 11.1(b) if you could give some sort of indication or some sort of a further breakdown on that particular line.

(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)

Mr. Toews: In respect of transportation, that essentially deals with airline flights and motor vehicles and those types of expenses, all expended on government business.

Mr. Lamoureux: I guess I feel somewhat limited in the types of questions that I can ask, not necessarily being able to ask questions which I have the right to ask on this particular line, and there are questions that I have with respect to the policy direction of the department in its programs. Can I ask questions regarding that?

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Yes, the member for Inkster may.

Mr. Lamoureux: Can the minister then indicate what sorts of programs that he is looking at in terms of additional or any new programs that are coming up dealing in particular with apprenticeship or training, or does he believe that the department has a role to play in that area?

Mr. Toews: It is my understanding that apprenticeship and training has been moved over to the Department of Education, and so my involvement in that area would be somewhat limited, more in terms of issuing certificates to people applying for various licences, power engineer licences and the like. And, of course, the department still continues to issue those types of licences. But it was felt by government that it would be more consistent with putting those types of programs into the Education department.

* (1750)

Mr. Lamoureux: So, currently, certification is virtually what the Department of Labour does do on different professions that are out there.

I am wondering if you can give some sort of indication about, let us say, immigrants that would come to the province and would say, look, I have the training and background in this particular area, and I would like to be able to practise my profession, and, for example, we will use the profession of engineering. Is that, then, something in which the department, this department would be entertaining?

Mr. Toews: Yes, that is something that the Department of Education would be dealing with rather than the Department of Labour. I think you summarized it very well when you said the department, in many of these areas, acts as a certifier of professions or tradespeople.

Mr. Lamoureux: If you are the certifying body, ultimately, are there appeals and, again, I want to use the specific example. Someone that believes that they have the accreditation to be able to enter--

Point of Order

Mr. Reid: On a point of order, Mr. Chairperson, I believe that the questioning that the member for Inkster is raising would fall more directly under the subsection 2.(b) Mechanical and Engineering, dealing with the examination, licensing and certifying of certain types and classes of tradespeople. I believe that is where that discussion would more likely apply, and I ask you to call him to order and wait his turn until we have arrived at that section to ask that question.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. I would just like to point out to the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) that he can ask questions as a more general policy in this area, but in specifics he should wait till the line, and the line was indeed pointed out by the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid).

* * *

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, I am somewhat confused in terms of the line of questioning and the approach that is being used from the member for Transcona, being somewhat sensitive possibly with respect to earlier remarks that he has made. Asking whether or not immigrants, in particular, that come to Canada that have skills that they have acquired and that were possibly certified to do in other areas and what this particular department is doing with respect to an acknowledgement of those skills or the certificates that they would have acquired from foreign lands, I do believe is a general policy question, and I would ask the minister to comment on that.

Point of Order

Mr. Reid: On a point of order, Mr. Chairperson, I am going to have to ask you then to rule on whether or not the question that has just been put by the member for Inkster is indeed a general question relating to the certification of new immigrants to the country. I have already indicated what is my understanding of where that would more likely apply in the section of the Estimates for the Department of Labour, which is Mechanical and Engineering 2.(b), page 26 of the Supplementary Estimates. If you look under the Objectives, second paragraph: to examine and license or certify certain types and classes of tradespeople.

I believe that would be the more applicable section on which this member can raise his general questions relating to this topic, and I ask you once again to call him to order.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. I think that all members of the committee know that we could go on for a considerable length of time riding the fine line of policy or getting down to particulars within a certain line. We all know that we could do this.

I would ask for a little bit of understanding from both members, and I think there has been. I would just ask for a little bit more understanding, perhaps to let the minister answer this question, and perhaps then we can get on with line by line. Would that be agreeable to the member for Inkster?

Mr. Lamoureux: I believe that there is a point to be made, and I will attempt to make that point and then will be prepared to pass the line.

I find that it is indeed unfortunate in the seven years of Estimates that I have gone through that we have a member from the opposition trying to dictate in terms of what it is that I am entitled to ask, even denying an opportunity, a courteous opportunity, to be able to say a few words. It was not necessarily my purpose--

Point of Order

Mr. Reid: I think that the member for Inkster is indicating that I have an ulterior motive in the comments that I have made and the points of order I made, and I have at no time indicated to the member for Inkster that I want to limit his ability to ask any questions.

All I ask is that we do it in the appropriate section that the Supplementary Estimates provide for and that he will have that ample opportunity to ask those questions that are on his mind.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: I do not believe that the honourable member for Transcona had a point of order. I would once again, though, ask the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) to finish his comments or to make them reasonably short, so that we can get on with the line by line, and at different points throughout the Estimates of Labour, the member for Inkster will be able to ask any and all questions, specific questions, that he would like.

I would like to point out to all members of the committee that the more we speak to general policy or particular questions, and we want to almost, I guess you could say, play with these words, the less time we are going to have within the Estimates of the Ministry of Labour.

I would like to point out that we do not have too many hours left in Estimates. I would ask that the member for Inkster complete his comments, and perhaps, then, we can move on, and we will ask the minister to make a short comment on the general policy part of your question or comments.

* * *

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, as I was saying, any question that could possibly be asked within the Executive Support area could also be posed in any of the following pages after page 20, no doubt, and one could get into great detail through that.

It has been at least the practice that I have seen in the past to allow for a bit more of asking of policy, general policy questions, and understanding the sensitivity of the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), I am prepared to pass the line at this point.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 1. Labour Executive (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $266,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $69,700--pass.

The time is now 6 p.m. Committee rise.