Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): This section of the Committee of Supply with be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Urban Affairs. We will begin with a statement from the honourable minister responsible.
Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to introduce the 1995-96 Estimates for Manitoba Urban Affairs. As the new Minister of Urban Affairs, I can tell you that I appreciate the unique role the city of Winnipeg plays in our province. I look forward to developing a positive working relationship with my colleagues in the City of Winnipeg and the capital region.
Manitoba Urban Affairs continues to be the focal point for intergovernmental relations between the city and the province. It is responsible for the development and the maintenance of the legislative, financial and planning framework that effectively meets the needs of the citizens of Winnipeg.
During this fiscal year, my department will be involved in a variety of initiatives which will contribute to the delivery of its mandate in a manner which is intended to foster partnerships with the City of Winnipeg. In the area of provincial financial partnerships, I am pleased to advise that this year the operating grants provided from my department to the City of Winnipeg will be increased by 2 percent. This includes a $1 million increase in the unconditional video lottery terminal grant. During 1995, my department will be providing the City of Winnipeg with $50.4 million in operating grants.
The province has also made $12.3 million in commitments to the City of Winnipeg through the Urban Capital Projects Allocation. The Urban Capital Projects Allocation is a cost-sharing partnership between the province and the city with each party contributing 50 percent towards the eligible program expenditures. This year's commitments include funding towards the purchase of low-floor Transit buses, Handi-Transit buses, bridge reconstruction and community revitalization. These projects will not only upgrade existing infrastructure within the city but will create jobs and have beneficial effects on the economy.
Tri-level agreements provide an opportunity for partnership among governments to maximize the use of limited resources and to achieve common goals by pooling their resources. On March 10, 1995, the $75 million Winnipeg Development Agreement was signed by the governments of Manitoba, Canada and Winnipeg. The agreement has three major components which are: community development and security, labour force development and strategic and sectorial investments. The programs to be developed through the Winnipeg Development Agreement will capitalize on this city's great potential in key economic sectors and in labour force, helping to ensure long-term employment opportunities for Winnipeg residents.
In addition to overall provincial co-ordination for the agreement, my department will be responsible for the implementation of a number of programs including north main economic development, urban safety, neighbourhood improvement, riverbank development and strategic initiatives. These programs are currently being developed by my staff with input from relevant interest groups. A provision of $3 million has been included in the budget for the delivery of provincial Winnipeg Development Agreement programs this fiscal year.
My department is also fostering a partnership between Winnipeg and the surrounding municipalities. As part of this process a capital region study has been developed jointly by the Round Table on Environment and Economy and the Capital Region Committee. The draft strategy identifies goals, objectives, policies and actions aimed at implementing sustainable development in the capital region. Public workshops on the issues and policies included in the draft strategy will be held during the month of June. The public input will be used in preparing a revised Capital Region Strategy.
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Several years ago the province identified a need for the City of Winnipeg to have a comprehensive urban transportation study. As a result, my department has committed $390,000 towards the preparation of TransPlan 2010. The plan will provide a 15 to 20-year framework to guide both short- and long-term transportation service delivery in Winnipeg. A steering committee of five citizens has been appointed to direct the development of TransPlan 2010. Department staff are participating on the advisory committee and the city-province management committee. The plan is scheduled to receive provincial approval and adoption by City Council by July 1996.
All levels of government today are conscious of the need to continually find opportunities to increase cost-effectiveness in delivering services to the public. One such opportunity which may exist is with respect to the voters list. All three levels of government prepare voters lists. Recently, the City of Winnipeg approached the department with a request that we determine the cost-effectiveness of developing a common voters list to be shared by the three levels of government. Through a working committee of staff from the government, municipal and school associations, my department will take the lead on a study to determine the feasibility of developing a permanent voters list. The study will identify if cost savings can be generated by reducing the duplication of effort.
Urban growth management that is consistent with the principles of sustainability is a concern to both the City of Winnipeg and the province. Accordingly, my department has agreed to cost-share in a study and participate with the City of Winnipeg and the Urban Development Institute on an urban growth management study. The purpose of this study will be to determine if the capital costs of new development are being borne equitably by the private sector and, ultimately, by their customers without subsidization by taxpayers in existing areas of Winnipeg. The study will also identify and evaluate options to address any inequities which may be identified.
On the legislative front, two bills to amend The City of Winnipeg Act are being introduced this session. Bill 7, which was distributed to the House on May 31, 1995, contains amendments permitting Winnipeg City Council to issue tax credits and rebates for campaign contributions, and amendments to strengthen penalty provisions for violations of electoral expenses and contribution legislation. The second bill to be introduced will contain the balance of amendments in Bill 17, which died on the Order Paper.
As you can see, during the year Urban Affairs will continue to be a vibrant department actively involved in improving the well-being of the residents of this capital city.
Mr. Chairman, this concludes my opening remarks. I look forward to discussion on the Estimates. Thank you very much.
Mr. Chairperson: We thank the honourable minister for that response, and we will now have the customary reply from the honourable member for Wellington.
Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Chair, I will, as the minister was in his opening remarks, be brief in my opening remarks so that we can spend the time that we have to deal with these Estimates and actually dealing with them, line-by-line concerns.
I thank the minister for his comments, and he has given me a couple of areas that I will be asking more detailed questions on as we get into the Estimates. I find it interesting, in light of many of the actions that have been undertaken by this government, that the minister talks about the unique role the City of Winnipeg plays and the intergovernmental relations that is the major component of the activities of the Department of Urban Affairs, those relations between the city and the province. I will be exploring what the minister has said and what is stated in the Supplementary Estimates quite extensively the distinction between what the minister and the Estimates book says about the unique role and the leadership role that the city plays with what is actually taking place in many of the relationships that are being played out between the provincial government and the City of Winnipeg and the capital region.
I am glad the minister has highlighted that element because I think it is one of the most challenging parts of the Department of Urban Affairs, and I challenge that, frankly, Mr. Chair, we do not think the government is meeting adequately.
With those brief comments, I would conclude my opening remarks.
Mr. Chairperson: We thank the honourable member for Wellington. I would remind the members of the committee that the debate of the Minister's Salary, item 1, is deferred until all other items in the Estimates of this department are passed. At this time we would invite the minister's staff to take their place in the Chamber.
At this moment we would like to ask the minister if he would like to introduce his staff present.
Mr. Reimer: Heather McKnight, Marianne Farag, Jim Beaulieu, my deputy, and Vernon DePape.
Mr. Chairperson: We will now be dealing with item 1.(b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $176,700.
Ms. Barrett: Mr. Chair, I would like to ask a general question of the minister relating to the flow of the Estimates and wondering if I can deal with a number of issues under this category, or will there need to be additional staff brought in to deal with specific items?
Mr. Reimer: I would think that we would maybe be able to go on a general flow with the questions, and if there is something that comes up that we cannot answer, we will either try to get back to the member or possibly utilize the staff that is here that might be able to give us some direction.
Ms. Barrett: I would like to go first in the Supplementary Estimates to Schedule 2 on page 5, which is the organization chart. The senior urban policy co-ordinator is vacant according to the organization chart, and I would like to ask the minister a series of questions, which I will just ask all at once and then he can answer all at once.
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Is it still vacant? When did it become vacant? If it still is vacant, when do you anticipate filling it? Who is doing the job now, and who was fulfilling that senior urban policy co-ordinator position prior to the vacancy?
(Mr. Frank Pitura, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair.)
Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairman, the position was formerly held by Claudette Toupin, who was transferred and promoted to the Department of Education. The position will, in all likelihood, be open for competition later this year, I believe, in November or so.
Ms. Barrett: How long has this position been vacant?
Mr. Reimer: Last September--vacant since last September.
Ms. Barrett: The minister in his first answer said it would likely be open later this year for competition. So it will have been vacant for most likely a year or even a little more by the time it is filled. Is that a correct--
Mr. Reimer: That is right.
Ms. Barrett: Who is undertaking the duties that were previously filled by the senior urban policy co-ordinator?
Mr. Reimer: I have been informed that it has been handled more or less within the staff that are there, the existing staff, for the last while.
Ms. Barrett: It seems, just as a comment--I guess, I will ask a question first. Why has it not been bulletined, or why has the competition not been open for this position when it is the senior policy co-ordinator and the department is dealing with some very large and complex and important issues which have major policy components? Why has the department not, or the minister, I guess, not seen fit to open this very important position for competition prior to some time later this year?
Mr. Reimer: I would just like to point out to the member that it is not uncommon for various departments to see whether there can be an absorption or a sharing of responsibilities within the various departments to see whether the workload can be absorbed within the department itself. With this particular position it would appear that, after the time that it has been vacant, with the direction of looking at replacing it now, it would appear that the most appropriate action is to get the position refilled, which is coming up, as mentioned, later this year.
Ms. Barrett: So my understanding of the minister's answer is that when Ms. Toupin went to the Department of Education, there was a deliberate decision made on the part of the department to see if the duties of the senior urban policy analyst could be handled by other staff in the department. It has now been determined that there needs to be this position filled. Is that an accurate summary of your earlier answer?
Mr. Reimer: That is an accurate assessment of the situation. Right.
Ms. Barrett: A comment I will make here, I understand and do not disagree with the philosophy that sometimes when a position becomes vacant, there is an opportunity then to see if the duties of that position can be shared among the existing staff, thereby providing services in a more cost-effective manner. However, my understanding and my reading of organizational theory, which is not deep and extensive, but there is an economy of scale that shows itself in this kind of situation, as well as in others.
In a department the size of Urban Affairs, it is a very small department in the size of its actual staff component and very small, even smaller, in the policy area. It seems to me that a much higher percentage, we are looking here at--not even dealing with the finance side, but under the Director of Urban Planning and Development--one-third of the policy component or 25 percent of the entire staff component position is being looked at to be downsized. That is an enormous percentage of the work of that division. Not only that, it would be hard enough if you took a policy or program analyst, but you are not taking a policy or program analyst, what happened was you lost the senior policy administrator.
I am sorry but I do not understand how you can say that you can lose the most senior policy administrator in this area. When you are dealing with things like the Winnipeg Development Agreement, the Capital Region Strategy, all the things that are coming forward from the City of Winnipeg, and all of the other issues that this department deals with for over a year and not feel that lack of that input.
Mr. Reimer: I think that a lot of what the member has said has a certain direction on it. But at the same time, I look at the staff that is involved with the department, the quality of output, and the availability of the strength that we have within the department; they rose to the occasion. What has happened in the last little while is, as the member has pointed out, new challenges have been brought forth with the Winnipeg Development Agreement, the Urban Capital strategic study. At this time, this is one of the reasons why we have to look at filling in that position because of the workload and the fact we can only stretch them so far. So we will be filling that position.
Ms. Barrett: I do not want it put on the record, or even in the vaguest sense intimated by the minister's comments, that I was in any way casting any doubts or aspersions on the calibre of the people who are staffpersons for the Department of Urban Affairs. The minister knows that would never be my intention.
I sometimes think that smaller departments have a more difficult time because you just do not have the depth of staffing--I am talking about numbers, not quality--that you do in larger departments. I think that the staff have done an excellent job, and particularly when they have not had a full complement. I am glad to see that the minister has decided that this is an essential position, and I look forward to the competition and hope it is earlier later this year rather than later later this year.
I have just one more question on this organization chart, and this will show my abysmal ignorance of many of the elements of this department, but to the right-hand side there are four boxes that look to be dotted rather than full lines. Two of them are the North Portage Development Corporation and the Forks Renewal Corporation that the department is shareholder of. Is it not true, or has there not been an amalgamation of those two corporations?
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Mr. Reimer: As a legal entity, they are both identified in the organizational chart, but the management has been amalgamated under one. As pointed out, for the sake of the chart, they are still shown as two, but there is one board.
Ms. Barrett: I would like to then go forward more to the subappropriation 20.1.(b) Executive Support. I have a couple of fairly specific questions, and then I will probably spend the majority of my time asking about some of the initiatives under the department here.
Under the Salaries and Employee Benefits, I noticed that there is an increase in salaries and benefits for both the profession-technical and admin support staff. I am wondering what causes the increase in light of the Filmon Fridays and those reductions. Is it merit, or what causes that increase?
Mr. Reimer: Just for clarification, you are working off the yellow book on page 16? Okay.
It is mainly merit increases for the existing staff that the increases are shown for.
Ms. Barrett: On page 3--I guess I lied when I said I was going to stay on pages 15 and 16--but on page 3 of the Supplementary Estimates, where they talk about the role and mission of the department, it talks about the review and approval of Plan Winnipeg and related amendments. I wonder if the minister can outline, just list what reviews are being undertaken relating to Plan Winnipeg and then maybe we can get into more detail later.
Mr. Reimer: The line that the member is referring to, these are done on a periodic basis, and the last time it was done is 1993. So it is not something that is done on a continual basis. It is done as required. We will most likely being doing the same type of review in 1997 again.
Ms. Barrett: There are, however, are there not, amendments that came forward under Plan Winnipeg and by-laws? There is one that I will ask about later dealing with East St. Paul and Headingley. Those are more specific things. What it says on page 2 is a general overview look at Plan Winnipeg. Is that correct?
Mr. Reimer: Right.
Ms. Barrett: On page 3, again under Role and Mission, it talks about promoting and undertaking research and studies in support of the department's mission, and I am wondering if the minister can outline for us what research and studies have been concluded or are currently being undertaken or are planned for the next year.
Mr. Reimer: In regard to the line that the member is referring to, the promotion, research and study, as an example, there is the suburban growth management study that has been undertaken. There is the riverbank study regarding the Elmwood Cemetery, and another example would be the TranSport 2010 study that is being undertaken right now. I was just going to also mention too, as mentioned earlier, the permanent voters list is a study that is being undertaken.
Ms. Barrett: Maybe I will, if it is okay with the minister, ask some questions about a couple of these studies at this point in time, particularly the suburban growth and the permanent voters list.
The permanent voters list, I will start with that one. The minister in his opening remarks stated that the three levels of government were undertaking this study to determine whether cost reductions could take place by instituting a permanent voters list. My understanding is that is with the three levels of government--the municipal, the provincial and the federal. Is that correct?
Mr. Reimer: Correct.
Ms. Barrett: This will deal with the City of Winnipeg, or will all municipalities be affected by the decisions that come out of this study?
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Mr. Reimer: The question is very apropos because the forming of the study committee, the first meeting is actually next week. Some of the parameters of discussion will be taken into consideration on the municipalities and their involvement with the voters list and the reachingness in the coverage of the voters list. It is in the formative stage with the idea of trying to get a reconciliation of voters lists.
Ms. Barrett: Who will be attending that first meeting next week?
Mr. Reimer: The chairman of the committee and the organization will be the Deputy Minister of Urban Affairs. The Manitoba Association of Urban Municipalities will be involved, the City of Winnipeg will be involved, MAST will be involved, the Department of Education will be involved, the provincial electoral office will be involved, and the federal electoral office will be involved with that. There will be appointees from these organizations at that meeting.
Ms. Barrett: The various groups that are represented, was this a determination made by the government?
Mr. Reimer: The invitation was made to the various organizations to appoint people to make representation. They were not appointed by this department or this minister.
Ms. Barrett: I understand the individuals who will be representing the various groups that the minister has talked about will be appointed or asked to sit on this committee to participate in this study, but who made the determination that MAUM, the city, MAST, the Department of Education and the federal and provincial Elections branches would be the component parts of this plan?
Mr. Reimer: The invitation that was sent out was extended to any and all jurisdictions that were affected by electoral lists, so that if they were involved with any type of elections or something, they were asked to participate or send representation, in a sense, to the committee.
Ms. Barrett: How many members will be appointed from each of these areas?
Mr. Reimer: Usually one.
Ms. Barrett: Have the terms of reference been established for this study?
Mr. Reimer: The terms of reference, I believe the member is referring to, are available. They can be supplied to the member. I do not know whether we have them with us today, but we will make sure that we get you a copy of the terms of reference.
(Mr. Chairperson in the Chair)
Ms. Barrett: Madam Chair--
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Ms. Barrett: --I am doing that on behalf of the Speaker, who has had to deal with several Mr. Speakers.
Now I have lost my train of thought. Yes, I would appreciate the terms of reference Monday morning or something. That would be great because I do have some questions on this whole issue of permanent voters lists and I think the terms of reference would help me be more specific in my questions. So I will, if I may, leave that area now and perhaps come back to it when we return on Monday.
The minister talked about the suburban growth. I think if it is the same study, it is the study that the previous minister spoke about in Estimates last June, the suburban cost study. Is that the same study that the minister mentioned earlier in his answer about which research projects are underway?
Mr. Reimer: I would just point out that the goal is to determine if new development pays for itself, and, if not, what needs to be done to make sure it does in a sense. The objectives can be divided into three stages.
Number one, the study will determine if the capital costs of development are being borne in an equitable manner by the private sector and ultimately their customers without the subsidization by taxpayers in existing areas of the city of Winnipeg.
Stage two will identify and evaluate options to ensure that the costs associated with new development are fair and equitable and do not adversely impact either existing and future taxpayers or developers.
Stage three will proceed only if one and two reveal that development charges are necessary to equitably distribute the cost of new capital improvements in Winnipeg. Stage three will then consist of a creation of a Winnipeg development charge assessment model for all types of growth, for example, residential, commercial and industrial. The model will be used to calculate the capital improvement cost per unit of the new development.
I can just point out that the terms of reference are nearly completed and the study cost will be jointly shared by the city, the province and the Urban Development Institute.
Ms. Barrett: I am a tiny bit confused here. The first is the study to determine if capital costs are being borne equitably by the private sector without undue subsidization by the public sector. Is that accurate? If that is accurate, then is this a study that will be undertaken every time a development takes place, or is this a study to determine how you will in the future determine if the costs are being borne equitably? My understanding was that the study that was talked about by the former minister of Urban Affairs last year was going to be a general study to determine how you decide if the costs are being borne equitably.
Mr. Reimer: This is more or less the same study that was previously alluded to. It is a generic study in a sense that it will not be the same type of analysis and study that would go through for every project or development.
Ms. Barrett: The first of three elements the minister talked about is a study. When this study is concluded it will be kind of a model to be put in place for suburban development in the future. Is that accurate?
Mr. Reimer: It is actually meant to lead towards better development, structure and decision making regarding the developments.
Ms. Barrett: Who is undertaking this study?
Mr. Reimer: As mentioned, the costs are jointly shared by the city, the province and the Urban Development Institute.
Ms. Barrett: Is it staff then of the province and the city and the Urban Development Institute that are actually doing the study, or are there other extra governmental individuals involved?
Mr. Reimer: No, an outside consultant will be hired for the study.
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Ms. Barrett: An outside consultant will be hired. So am I to take it that an outside consultant has not yet been hired, so therefore this study has not yet begun?
Mr. Reimer: The terms of reference have not been finalized. Once that is put into place, then there be the advancement of the other steps involved with the formalization of it.
Ms. Barrett: So what activities have been undertaken since last June's Estimates, since this was discussed last June 28, I believe? It would appear that it is fairly much in the same beginning stages as it was a year ago. Is that accurate?
Mr. Reimer: This department has been fairly forward in trying to get this study on track. There has been a hesitancy by the city to get involved, if you want to call it, in trying to look at their priorities of development. We have been fairly positive in trying to get this program going, as the member mentioned, since last June, but it has been indicated that the City of Winnipeg has not been overly aggressive in dealing with the area of appointment. Also, the Urban Development Institute is in the process of appointing people, too. So we have tried to be very proactive on this, but, dealing with the other two levels, there is always the trying to satisfy two other groups as to get the program initiated.
Ms. Barrett: So the problem with the city and, to a lesser extent, with the Urban Development Institute has been that they have been hesitant to appoint members to this study, or is their hesitancy about the terms of reference or something else about the study?
Mr. Reimer: It has been pointed out to me that the Urban Development Institute has been very judicious in getting their representation on board and everything. I may have alluded to the fact that maybe they were, you know, being a bit hesitant, but they have been fairly positive in their attitude and direction on this development, too. It seems that where there is a bit of a slowdown, or a hesitancy, has been with the city to get involved with the direction, the planning and the study that is being proposed.
Ms. Barrett: Can the minister share with us the reasons for the city's hesitancy?
Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, I guess it is hard to pinpoint exact reasons why the city may be hesitant. I can recognize their reorganization and their involvement with a lot of different changes over the last year in their analysis of management and the direction and the priorities of spending and budgetary considerations that they are looking at. So they have not been able to maybe put the priorities that we feel are important in the same context as what they feel is immediate on their venues. It is like anything, you know. Coming together with any type of different proposals and directions you have to have consensus, and what one sees as important the other may not see as important at that particular time.
Ms. Barrett: Do you have an estimated time of beginning of the work of this study?
Mr. Reimer: We are optimistic that we could possibly get this going by the fall of this year of '95.
Ms. Barrett: Really, the final question on this one. The terms of reference, when they are put together, could they be shared with the House?
Mr. Reimer: Yes.
Ms. Barrett: One other activity that is under the role and mission statement is to co-ordinate intergovernmental, interdepartmental and multisectoral committees. Could the minister outline what some of those committees are?
Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, as an example of the co-ordination of the intergovernmental and interdepartmental and multisectoral committees, we can point to the Environment Committee, the Urban Affairs Committee of Cabinet, the capital region study, the voters list, which we talked about a little while ago, and also the recent WDA, Winnipeg Development Agreement.
Ms. Barrett: Is the department involved in any way with the WINNPORT project at the Winnipeg airport?
Mr. Reimer: The province is involved to the extent because of the fact that it would require an amendment to The City of Winnipeg Act and The Plan Winnipeg Act. So this is the involvement.
The various players, if you want to call it, involved would be Rural Development; naturally, we are to an extent as indicated; the Town of Selkirk would be involved with it; the City of Winnipeg, naturally; and a steering committee of elected officials. An administrative support committee has been established, and it is to identify the issues raised by the Airport Vicinity Landowners Association, formerly the CP Rail proposal, to gather and exchange information at the four levels of government: the province, the City of Winnipeg, the R.M. of Rosser and the South Interlake district planning board. They will be required to determine whether the proposed amendment should be granted. The steering committee will be submitting an interim report by October 31, 1995.
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Ms. Barrett: The steering committee is made up of representatives from Winnipeg, Urban Affairs, Rural Development, Selkirk, the R.M. of Rosser and the South Interlake planning board? That is accurate. They are going to report to whom in October of '95, hopefully, about what?
Mr. Reimer: The report would be presented to the Provincial Land Use Committee here in the Legislature.
Ms. Barrett: Who makes up the provincial land use committee?
Mr. Reimer: To get the accurate list of the members, I will have to get staff to provide that, because I am not exactly sure of exactly how many or who they are. For example, Rural Development is involved, Agriculture is involved, Highways is involved. There may be some other ones--Natural Resources. We can get the exact list of who sits on that committee. I know it is chaired by the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings).
Ms. Barrett: So it is a committee of cabinet then.
Mr. Reimer: Yes.
Ms. Barrett: So I am not even going to ask for the copy of the minutes of that one.
Once the steering committee makes a report to the provincial land use committee, then the government will decide, based on that report?
Mr. Reimer: The approval has to come through the various levels of government that are going to be involved and the direction of it, as pointed out, the Selkirk district, the city of Winnipeg district and the R.M. of Rosser. So there is a co-ordination of input from all levels so that the decision that is made is in consequence with the concerns of the municipalities that are involved and the jurisdictions involved.
Ms. Barrett: I think I understand the process. I think the end result is going to be an amendment perhaps to Plan Winnipeg dealing with the whole issue of at least the first phase of the WINNPORT proposal. Is that accurate?
Mr. Reimer: Yes.
Ms. Barrett: So the report will go to the committee of cabinet by October, hopefully, and then the decision will be made by the committee of cabinet and then whatever is decided, if it does require an amendment, that is when the legislation would come forward or what is the next step then?
Mr. Reimer: No legislation is required. What has to be emphasized is the fact that any type of decision has to be in co-operation with the other levels that are involved. The province is not in a position to impose. It is done with a consolidation of concerns for the other members who are going to be involved with that.
Ms. Barrett: I am unclear. My notes relating to the answer to my first question about WINNPORT said something about an amendment to Plan Winnipeg act. Is that not--
Mr. Reimer: Yes, it is an amendment to a plan, but it is not an amendment to the legislation. It is the Plan Winnipeg that we are talking about which is a by-law of the City of Winnipeg.
Ms. Barrett: It is a very interesting, to my way of thinking, way of proceeding. You are right. Plan Winnipeg is interesting that way.
So once the amendment--should there be one--goes through, does the province have the authority to amend Plan Winnipeg and then the city and anybody else is obliged to use that as an updated plan dealing with the issues surrounding WINNPORT, or again is this a consultative process?
Mr. Reimer: The short answer is yes.
Ms. Barrett: One other area that I would like to talk about briefly is the Winter Cities event, if I may. My understanding--and I am not sure if it is accurate or not--is that the government has given Winter Cities approximately $900,000 to put the Winter Cities Conference on. Is that accurate or have I been given information that is not accurate?
Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairman, maybe I will just give a little background on the seventh international Winter Cities Conference which is going to be held in 1996. The funding for the conference is estimated at $2,990,000 and has been structured as a tripartite effort with contributions to the federal, the provincial and the municipal governments of $900,000 each as was mentioned by the member for Wellington. The corporate sector will provide $120,000 and other agencies about $170,000. The conference is expected to generate about $6.2 million in economic activity in Winnipeg and about $8.5 million for the province. For example, the 1994 conference hosted in Alaska cost just over $1.5 million.
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To date, there has been no application or formal application made to the Department of Urban Affairs for any type of sharing of funding regarding the Winter conferences.
Ms. Barrett: The city has not asked for the provincial $900,000?
Mr. Reimer: At this particular time, there has been no formal overture of funds to this particular Department of Urban Affairs. I cannot speak for overtures that may have been made through other departments or to other departments. I really could not comment on whether they have gone to other parts of government. We could try to find out for the member in the next few days and have that information for him.
Ms. Barrett: I would appreciate that.
So the $900,000 that is being earmarked, if that is the right word, for the Winter Cities, from the provincial level of government, is not all coming from Urban Affairs? It would be in a number of departments' budgets?
Mr. Reimer: I really could not speculate as to which department or which venue is being pursued for funding on that particular aspect. I can only indicate, as I have, through our department, which is Urban Affairs, but there has been no formal application through here. Whether it is being looked at through another department, I cannot really speculate, but we can try to find a direction for the member.
Ms. Barrett: Should the city make application to the Department of Urban Affairs for funding for Winter Cities? How much money would there be available for the city to ask for?
Mr. Reimer: I guess, like any type of application for funding, it is put into the analysis of where funding is available and a direction and the priorities of where it is going and the departments that could or should be involved with it. I cannot really speculate as to if and when or where funding direction could come from.
Ms. Barrett: So the $900,000 that has been agreed to by the three levels of government, the provincial component of that--yet is that money earmarked in any government department that you know of?
Mr. Reimer: As mentioned in giving a bit of a preamble on the conference itself, we are looking at a tripartite agreement between the federal, provincial and the municipal governments and their involvement and their contributions. It would be hard to speculate as to the positioning of it and what type of endeavours the other levels have committed to. As mentioned, I cannot speculate as to which departments have had overtures yet of anything regarding the conference.
Ms. Barrett: Does the Department of Urban Affairs have any representation on what I would imagine is a steering committee dealing with the Winter Cities Conference? If not, does the minister know if any other department has representation on the steering or planning committee?
Mr. Reimer: It should be pointed out that the initiative is being spearheaded by the City of Winnipeg. The City of Winnipeg is the initiator of the conference and the parameters involved with it. This department is not one of the participants in that agreement and the structuring of the committee.
Ms. Barrett: So the Department of Urban Affairs will not have any role to play in either participating in the steering committee, or whatever it is called, Winter Cities, nor in making available any of the $900,000 that has been earmarked from the province for the putting on of the Winter Cities Conference.
Mr. Reimer: I just wanted to point out, as I indicated, we are not part of the participants on that committee. The chairperson who was appointed by Susan Thompson in 1993, Harold Buchwald, is spearheading the committee.
Ms. Barrett: To quote one of my favourite members of the Legislative Assembly, I find it passing strange that a Winter Cities Conference that has, from the minister's first answer, $900,000 earmarked in some form or another for potential financial support to the conference, that the Department of Urban Affairs is not represented in the planning process of this Winter Cities Conference. What other department would be?
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Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, I would just like to point out that the funding and the direction of it--and I guess I keep repeating myself to the extent that the department or the lead department for the contribution has not been established yet and the funding and the direction that it would be going.
There are other conferences that are held within the city of Winnipeg. For example, there is the International Downtown Planning Association that is coming here that this department is not involved with in a sense of being a strong participant.
As I mentioned, this department is not involved with this particular winter conference that is coming up.
Ms. Barrett: The minister talks about I believe a downtown conference that is coming to the city, and the Department of Urban Affairs is not involved with that conference. I know the vast majority of conferences that come to the city, even if they do have some connection to urban issues, might very well not have an urban affairs component.
The minister, in his first answer, said it is a tripartite arrangement, that there is $900,000 budgeted somewhere for the Winter Cities Conference. I find it hard to understand why, No. 1, there has not been a lead department established yet for a conference that is being held here in early February of next year; and, No. 2, why that lead department would not be the Department of Urban Affairs.
Mr. Reimer: I have to revert to what was said previously in regard to the conference that was set up by the City of Winnipeg, by the mayor at the time, who was Bill Norrie. In their presentation of the budget, they are talking about the amount of money that they would hope the various levels of government would participate.
It is similar that, when you say tripartite, you are talking about also a federal contribution of $900,000. They have not made any type of overtures that funding is going to be available on a federal basis that we are aware of. So there are a lot of parameters that come into play in trying to come to a direction of funding and a level of funding and a commitment on funding.
This is the budgetary process that was put forth by the mayor, as I mentioned, back in 1992. It is like anything; it is a process, and approval has not been put forth; a request for funding has not been put forth. The direction of the department has not been established. There seems to be a perception that there is a money allocation within a budget somewhere in the department, but it is not in this Department of Urban Affairs, and there has been no formal request for funding that we are aware of, even in a commitment by the federal government or to that extent even the municipal government.
Ms. Barrett: So is the minister saying that this budget, again I revert to his first answer, says that there is a $2.3 million budget for the Winter Cities, that there will be $900,000 budgeted through a tripartite agreement with corporations and other groups making up the difference?
I can understand why the money has not been expended yet, but when I hear the word "tripartite agreement" it seems to me to say that there has actually been some negotiation, some discussion, some something, to come up with $900,000. Or is the minister just saying that the city on its own hook has said, we have a budget of $2.3 million and we are going to assume that the three levels of government will each kick in $900,000?
Does the minister know if the city or the steering committee of Winter Cities made any overtures of an organizational, if not financial, nature to the government of the province of Manitoba?
Mr. Reimer: I just remembered everything about this.
Point of Order
Ms. Barrett: I am sure the minister would not want to leave on the record the intimation that there was not any external assistance offered to him on this.
Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member did not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts.
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Mr. Chairperson: The honourable minister to respond.
Mr. Reimer: No, it was deep thought that brought back the question that the member for Wellington had. It was my recollection that the line regarding where that funding was allocated was through the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) in his Estimates, which was under the Urban Economic Development Fund. There was an allocation of $800,000 that was earmarked for this Winter Cities Conference in Winnipeg for 1996.
Mr. Chairperson: The hour being 2 p.m., committee rise. Call in the Speaker.
IN SESSION
Madam Speaker: This House is adjourned and stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. on Monday.