(Concurrent Sections)
FAMILY SERVICES
Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This morning this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Family Services.
When the committee last sat it had been considering item 3.(e)(1) on page 60 of the Estimates book and on page 67 of the yellow supplement book.
Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Chairperson, while we are on daycare, it reminds me of something that I have written to the minister about but I have not delivered the letter yet. It would be helpful if we could discuss it briefly, and that is the future of an institution that is in Burrows constituency, namely the North Y Community Centre.
I am hoping that the minister will be sympathetic on this issue, because she was probably a user of the North Y in that community as well at one time.
I asked a question of the Premier (Mr. Filmon) in Question Period a couple of weeks ago about provincial government support for helping to keep the doors open, and I thought that the First Minister's answers were quite gracious and sympathetic. I have written to him and thanked him for that and sent copies to other ministers.
There are three government departments that fund programs there, Justice, Family Services and Health. The reason is that Sunny Mountain Day Care Centre is located there.
I understand that they have a reprieve from the YM-YW of Winnipeg until October. The rest of the building is closing June 30th unless a new partner can be found, but the daycare will be continuing at least until the end of October.
I would like to ask the minister if she is sympathetic to continuing funding for the daycare at that location for a number of reasons. First of all, the facility really needs the rental income from Mental Health, Child Day Care office and Probation in order to keep the building viable. So if those three government departments continue to fund programs in that building it really does help to keep the doors open.
I know that a couple of years ago Sunny Mountain tried to find an alternative facility in the neighbourhood, and because of the current crisis they have been looking again for a facility. There really is not anything, particularly in the immediate neighbourhood. Many of the users there are on subsidy, and they are low-income people. They do not have cars and the location is ideal because it is at the junction of two bus routes, Mountain and McGregor. They are very reluctant to move out of the neighbourhood, particularly any great distance away.
So I am wondering if the minister can provide assurances that she will do her best to try to keep the funding going for the daycare at that site, which would be very helpful in keeping the doors open.
Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I appreciate the comments and the contribution that my honourable friend has made to this issue. In the interim I understand there is a community group that is trying to work very proactively to find a resolution to the situation that the north end Y faces at the present time. I think we will be very interested in hearing what they have to say and working with them to see whether there is not a solution to the problem.
I can make a commitment to ensure that funding remains available. I cannot today make any further commitment than that, but I think we want to work very closely with the daycare centre and with the community to ensure that the needs of the parents and children are served to the best of our ability.
So we will work and we will dialogue and we will be very interested in seeing what the community group that has pulled together has to present.
Mr. Martindale: I would like to thank the minister for offering her support. I am sure it is very much appreciated by Sunny Mountain Day Care and by the new group in the community, North Winnipeg CARE Incorporated--CARE being an acronym; I cannot tell you what it stands for offhand--because they are the only group that has come forward.
No other existing organization has come forward and offered to be a partner with the Y. But this new group has formed and would like to operate the facility and keep the current tenants, including Sunny Mountain Day Care.
Going back to questions on daycare policy, I would like to ask the minister if she plans any changes in the area of caps on subsidies, cases versus spaces and the parent charge of $2.40 a day. I know that the minister is familiar with all these issues, and I know that cases versus spaces has been a big problem for daycare centres because directors can no longer share spaces and that causes staffing problems and funding problems.
Mrs. Mitchelson: The issues surrounding daycare, I think the comments that I made during the election campaign at the child care forum would indicate that we are prepared to sit down with members of the child care community and parents and look at what the best solution is to try to change our system to the degree that we need to change it in order to provide affordable and flexible child care right throughout the province.
I am prepared to look at all issues in daycare, not one in isolation of the other though. I think they all fit together and we have to take a look at the whole package of daycare recognizing and realizing, as I have said in the past and I will reiterate again today, there is no more money. So within the parameters of the funding that is available, how do we find better ways of delivering the service so in fact we can address some of the issues that are outstanding in child care right throughout the province?
I am open to dialogue and discussion and working with the child care community and parents to see how we can best accommodate the needs of children and families in our Manitoba community within the resources that presently exist.
Mr. Martindale: The minister will be aware, and I think I am right on this, that there is no capital funding available for daycare centres for renovations or improvements. In spite of the fact that many daycares have financial problems now exacerbated by low enrollments, occasionally centres do have small surpluses, which they find very helpful, because they need money to match for grants such as Community Places. If they do not have those small surpluses then they have no money to make improvements to equipment or buildings.
I am wondering if the minister has any suggestions or any plans to work with the child care community to find solutions to these very real problems.
Mrs. Mitchelson: I think in my last answer I indicated that I am prepared to take a look at the whole issue of daycare in the context of how we best address the needs of children of working parents and families. I believe there needs to be dialogue and discussion, and everything that we do presently needs to be looked at with those that are providing the service and with those that are needing the service to ensure that we have a system that will meet the needs of the future of Manitoba's working families.
I am not opposed to looking at all issues in the overall context of service delivery for families and children in need.
Mr. Martindale: This minister is fond of talking about self-reliance. Interestingly, that word is used in the Dr. Brian Postl report on the health of Manitoba's children. He specifically mentions poverty and child care.
He says, and I would like to quote: Although increased access to quality daycare for those individuals will not solve the issue of poverty it may be viewed as a vital component of a broad-based effort to support the achievement of self-reliance and to break the cycle of poverty.
He recommends that the allocation of subsidized daycare spaces be reviewed to ensure access for children of the poor to support parental efforts towards self-reliance.
I am wondering if the minister can tell us how she plans to promote self-reliance through making child care more accessible to children of low-income families.
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Mrs. Mitchelson: I think this all fits into the whole bigger picture of co-ordination of early intervention of working with families to ensure that parents have the skills to parent, to budget, to ensure that children's basic needs are being addressed and that our children get off to a healthy start to life.
I have challenged the child care community to help look at the total picture of what the needs of families are and focus some of their energies and efforts on looking at how they can fit into solving some of the problems that do exist and some of the recommendations that have been made in the Postl report and some of the research that shows us that we need early intervention. We need early child development; we need to work with pregnant women during their pregnancy to ensure that they have proper nutrition and refrain from using alcohol or other substances that might create issues like fetal alcohol syndrome and other problems that do exist as a result of women not looking after themselves and understanding what the consequences are of not doing that.
I think it is part of the bigger picture. I would like the child-care community to be involved in a major way in the process of sort of broadening their minds and looking at how they can help with some of the expertise and the training, that they have to work with us on the Health side, on the Education side and on the Family Services side.
That challenge has gone out, and I would anticipate that they are--I know quite frankly from talking to many early childhood educators, on an individual basis, that there is a willingness for them to want to participate in the bigger-picture process in looking at how we deal with the issues of children at an early age and early child development and some of the other problems that we are facing today.
Mr. Martindale: Is the minister going to review the recommendations of the working group with the representative groups to create a plan for child care in the future?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, the working group was--that report I guess was presented to us back in 1991, I believe, 1991-92, and given the changing dynamics and given the research and the information and the major amount of work that has been done by Dr. Postl and his group, I think we need to be looking at what research and what recommendations have come forward, and put all of our future efforts and energies into trying to address the issues and the recommendations that come out of that report in a co-ordinated fashion. If there are those recommendations from the working group that would fit in with some of the recommendations that were made in the Postl report, I think we have to look at addressing them in that context.
Mr. Martindale: I understand that the minister has been involved with discussions, or her staff have been involved with discussions with MCCA and the Crocus Fund, and that the wroker project--I am not sure I am pronouncing that right; it is spelled w-r-o-k-e-r co-op project--has been improved in principle. Could the minister tell us when the project will be able to begin, or is it worker co-op project? Worker co-op project. Okay.
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, it is worker co-op project. The idea is a very interesting idea, and we are still trying to work out some of the details around that so we are not at a final stage of approval.
Mr. Martindale: During the election campaign, of course, I read the Conservative Party's policy on child care and the only thing I could see that was any different was the use of the word flexible. I wonder if the minister could tell us what she means by providing more flexible daycare.
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I think the issue has been raised on many, many occasions with our government and probably--well, maybe it is seven or eight years ago. It was not an issue that was as critical as it is today, but when we talk about flexibility, it is flexibility for those workers who are working shift work and weekends.
We know that many of the areas of job opportunity today do require people to work weekends and work shift work, and the present child care system I do not think addresses the needs of those working parents. So when we talk about flexibility, I think we have to look at creative ways of trying to meet the needs of the families and children that need support and care other than the nine-to-five, Monday-to-Friday workers. So when we talk flexibility, we need to look at how we address the needs of those children and families.
Mr. Martindale: I wonder if the minister could tell the committee briefly what she thinks happened to the federal Liberal government's promise of 150,000 new child care spaces. Is the funding still available for that or has it disappeared?
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Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I think I indicated yesterday in some of my comments that there is no new money. Any money for child care that was available or the CAP money for child care is rolled into a new pot now that has been reduced, so there is not more money in that pot for child care.
I suppose it is speculation on my part, but I think that the whole national child care strategy has fallen by the wayside. We know that within the Human Resources Investment Fund there is supposed to be money for child care. I did indicate I think to my honourable friend yesterday, and I will repeat it again today, that all indications are, at the bureaucratic level federally anyway, that any new money for daycare will have to compete with requests for support for Vocational Rehab and Community Living and all the training programs that presently exist at the federal level. That pot is a pot that is shrinking on a yearly basis. I would venture to guess that the federal government has abandoned its red book commitment.
Mr. Martindale: I would like to briefly ask a couple of questions on behalf of an individual child care centre that has written to the minister and sent a copy to our Leader. This is from Le P'tit Bonheur Inc. child care centre in St. Boniface. They point out that they are the only Francophone daycare. They are located close to Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface and they serve students who attend the college. They have a shortage of spaces and they have to turn down requests, which in turn means that parents cannot attend the college. They are requesting six additional subsidized spaces.
I am wondering if the minister has considered this request--the letter that I have is dated June 2, 1995--and if so, if Le P'tit Bonheur has received a favourable response.
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, we did receive the letter and are still looking at the issue. I know the request has come forward. Not unlike the other requests and the other sort of evaluation of child care centres across the province, when we looked at specific requests for increased subsidized spaces we made the decision to give several different centres more subsidized cases. We will look at this request in the same light and same context as other requests that have come forward.
Mr. Martindale: Before we pass this appropriation I would like to table a letter which really has to do with income security. It is a letter to the Honourable Ron Irwin, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, Canada. It is from Chief Louis Stevenson. It has to do with responsibility for social assistance. I would just like to table it so that it is part of the record. As the minister knows, we have raised the issue and the concern of treaty people living off reserve in Manitoba many times in Question Period and in Estimates, and we would just like to table this letter so that it is part of the record.
Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you. I will read it.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 3. Rehabilitation, Community Living and Day Care (e) Child Day Care (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,065,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $519,200.
Mr. Martindale: Could you just bring me up to date on what page we are on again?
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Page 60 of the blue Estimates book.
An Honourable Member: Page 67 in the supplementary.
Mr. Martindale: Page 67, okay.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 3.(e)(2) Other Expenditures $519,200--pass; (3) Financial Assistance and Grants $44,679,200--pass.
Resolution 9.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $141,340,100 for Family Services, Rehabilitation, Community Living and Day Care, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March 1996.
Item 4. Child and Family Services (a) Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $406,700.
Mr. Martindale: I would like to just spend a couple of minutes on the list of external agencies, funding to external agencies.
Could the minister tell us if there are any significant changes this year over last year?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, there are no significant changes. My understanding is, there may have been a slight increase in some of the grants to some of the organizations. Independent Living Resource Centre for one has received an increase. If I could just add too, all the shelters received their rent increase and $140,000 also for second stage housing.
Mr. Martindale: Could I ask the minister what kind of shelters she is referring to?
Mrs. McIntosh: Women's shelters.
Mr. Martindale: Thank you.
I guess I will start Child and Family Services now. I apologize to the minister if it seems like I am jumping around a lot, the reason being that I will be.
One concern that I have is the youth hostel that is operated by Macdonald Youth Services. I was there to visit it recently with the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford), and we had a meeting with the staff. The staff are quite optimistic that they can keep the facility open, but I think it requires some commitments of ongoing funding. I wonder if the minister could bring us up to date on the status and the future of the youth hostel operated by Macdonald Youth Services.
Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairperson, I was out to visit the youth hostel and meet with the staff from Macdonald Youth Services a week or two weeks ago and am certainly aware of the issues surrounding the hostel. Our staff are working with Macdonald Youth Services right now to see if there is anything that can be done and, if so, what. We are aware of the situation and we are working with them.
Mr. Martindale: Is there currently Family Services money going into the youth shelter?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, nothing directly from the department, but Winnipeg Child and Family Services agency does fund them for certain things, activities that are ongoing.
Mr. Martindale: Is it possible for the minister to either directly fund the shelter or to provide more money to Macdonald Youth Services or more money to Child and Family Services to keep the youth shelter open?
Mrs. Mitchelson: As I indicated, we have met with them. We are aware of the concerns and we are meeting with them to see if there is a resolution that can be found. I could not commit today to any one solution to the situation, but we are working with them and we will see if anything can be done.
Mr. Martindale: On a different topic, the minister and I both are lobbied by a group called Links or post-adoption Links. They have done a lot of research in terms of legislation in other provinces and other countries around the world which they have shared with me and I am sure they have shared with the minister. I would like to ask if the minister has reviewed legislation in other provinces and if she plans to make any changes in Manitoba.
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, yes, there are all kinds of issues around post-adoption services that need to be looked at. I know there are many different points of view out there in the community. That will be one of the areas that will receive full consideration as we enter into the review of the legislation. There are many areas within the act that will be subject to that process, and post-adoption services will be an area that will receive a major focus.
Mr. Martindale: Does that mean that the minister is contemplating changes in legislation for adoption?
Mrs. Mitchelson: There is a high likelihood that there will be changes and amendments to the legislation on the adoption side.
Mr. Martindale: It seems to me that both adoption and Child and Family Services lend themselves to public consultation before a change in legislation, because these are very important areas and they touch a lot of lives. Would the minister contemplate any kind of public hearings on changes to adoption legislation?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I think I indicated yesterday that there will be full public consultation before any major amendments are made to the act.
Mr. Martindale: Just to clarify, does the minister mean public consultation before legislation is drafted or at the committee stage of a bill?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Before legislation is drafted.
Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell us about the Family Support Innovations Fund and how the monies have been allocated and to what organizations? If there is a list of organizations, if the minister could table the list, that would be appreciated.
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I could read into the record all of those grants that have been given or I could get a clean list and provide that.
Mr. Martindale: Would it be possible to get the list before twelve o'clock?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes.
Mr. Martindale: As the minister knows, when children are apprehended, and I am speaking of Winnipeg, frequently there is a shortage of even temporary placements in homes and so children are put up in hotels and motels. Of course, this is at great expense, as the minister knows. Of course, we do not talk publicly about the names or locations of those facilities, but the first large hotel that was used--we will call hotel A--could the minister tell us how many children, on average, are there on a daily basis in these hotel suites?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I am trying to get that information but, in the meantime, I will pass over the list of the Family Support Innovations Fund grants.
I am informed that it varies from time to time based on individual circumstances and children's needs and that from time to time it might be a large family, where it is difficult finding a placement, but I understand where my honourable friend is coming from. I have the same concerns over the issues around putting children in hotels and what kind of treatment and what kind of care they get, an issue that I do not have an easy answer to, but I think it is an issue that we are going to have to look at trying to address sometime in the near future.
I do not think it is the best solution and maybe there are ways to explore, along with the agency, other options and other opportunities. Maybe it is reaching out to the community to see whether there is not an ability to attract more foster parents to provide the service, but that is an issue I have some major concern about. We will be working to try to find a more positive resolution.
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Mr. Martindale: I understand that there are so many children in need of protection and there is such a lack of spaces that a second hotel is being used. We will call it hotel B. Can the minister confirm that?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, it is my understanding that from time to time there is more than one hotel that might be used depending on the circumstances or the situation or what the agency feels is most appropriate.
Mr. Martindale: I am also concerned about people in rural Manitoba. I had one call from The Pas, where someone said that there was a waiting time of six to nine months for a trial and because of a lack of placements, a child was sent to Winnipeg, which meant that the parent was not able to visit.
I am wondering if the minister can confirm that this happens and how frequently.
Mrs. Mitchelson: If my honourable friend would like to share the detail of the specific incident with me, I would look into that and see. I guess the consideration is always given to what is in the best interests of the child at the time. There might be circumstances, unusual circumstances, that would require that kind of thing to happen, but if I could have some detail, I would certainly look into the specific incident and try to get more information.
Mr. Martindale: I will try to get that information.
On several occasions, I have said that Manitoba has the highest number of children in care per capita in Canada. I would like to ask the minister if that is true.
Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes, it is.
Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell us why?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, that is a question I have asked, and I am not sure of what the answers are.
I think one of the issues and one of the things we been trying to do with the Winnipeg agencies specifically, and other agencies, is the new focus and the new direction around family support, family preservation and family responsibility, where the Family Support Innovations Fund and the projects that I have just shared with my honourable friend that have been approved are supposed to be testing new ways of delivering service, so that children do not have to be taken into care, but they can be provided with supports in their families to see whether we cannot decrease the number of children that are coming into care. So that was really the whole focus of the Family Support Innovations Fund.
We are hopeful that as these projects get up and running, we will see a significant change in the numbers of children who have to come into care. It is a matter of new ways of delivering service and trying to keep families together, reunite families more quickly if it is at all possible, as long as it is in the children's best interests.
Mr. Martindale: Has the Family Support Innovations Fund been running long enough that Child and Family Services would have statistics that might show that there is a decrease in the number of children coming into care?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, no, the projects have not been running. Many of them are just getting up and running right now. Some of the approvals were made about six months ago, so it does take some time to get the program up and running and to evaluate the success.
The funding is for 18 months, and we are hopeful that by the end of that 18-month period, we will see a significant change, and that will be able to be documented.
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Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I understand that sometime ago, a promise was made to have a youth care worker training program at Red River Community College, perhaps as long as two years ago. My understanding is that this program is not up and running yet.
Could the minister confirm that?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, all four departments, Justice, Health, Education and Family Services, are supportive, have identified resources, and we are working very proactively to try to get that up and running as soon as possible. It may be as early as this fall.
Mr. Martindale: Well, the minister says possibly. Are you aiming for September or not?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, we are hopeful it will be this fall, but it does depend, to some degree, on the community college.
Mr. Martindale: Will some of the funding come from this minister's department?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes, a significant amount will come from our department.
Mr. Martindale: I have in front of me some statistics from one of the areas of Winnipeg Child and Family Services for the calendar year 1994, and it has to do with family preservation. I presume that means keeping children in families rather than having them apprehended, so, obviously, Child and Family Services is keeping track statistically of what is happening, with the goal, I guess, of fewer apprehensions and more children staying intact with their families.
Could the minister, first of all, confirm this, that statistics are kept with a goal of family preservation?
Mrs. Mitchelson: My understanding is that they are. Yes, I understand they are kept.
Mr. Martindale: How long have those statistics been kept?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I guess we have always tracked how many children are being served in families and how many children are being apprehended and served in care.
Mr. Martindale: Are any of those statistics available to me?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, if I could refer my honourable friend to the annual report on pages 86-87 and around there, there are lots of statistics. It does indicate the number of children in care and the number of families receiving services and probably that information would come to light through looking at the charts in the annual report.
Mr. Martindale: I would like to ask the minister a question about I believe it is the Winnipeg Development Agreement which according to--I am not sure whether this is a final copy or an earlier draft--but Program 8, Innovative and Preventive Child and Family Services, there was $4.5 million allocated.
I would like to ask the minister if this is new money and if it is something different than what her department is already doing.
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, yes, that is new money. It is part of the Winnipeg Development Agreement which is managed by the Department of Urban Affairs, but it was a request that I had made indicating that I felt it was a high priority that the Winnipeg Development Agreement have a component such as this. We will be developing criteria and guidelines around receipt of proposals to look at pilots that will be innovative new ways of working with families and children in Winnipeg to see whether we cannot achieve some positive results.
Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell us about the current status of the Child Abuse Registry and whether there is a backlog there and, if so, how many cases are waiting to be heard by the panel?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, there are 31 cases to be heard as of March 31, 1995.
Mr. Martindale: How does this compare with, say, a long-term average? Is it higher or lower?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, it is lower than it was at the same time last year.
Mr. Martindale: This is changing topics again. Could the minister tell us how many women from Flin Flon have gone to The Pas to seek shelter since the Flin Flon Crisis Centre was closed?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, in the 1994-95 fiscal year, a total of five women and eight children from Flin Flon accessed services at The Pas.
Mr. Martindale: How would that compare with the number of women who made use of the shelter service in Flin Flon when the Flin Flon Crisis Centre was still open? How many clients did they have in one year?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, as we know, the shelter in Flin Flon did accommodate many women from Saskatchewan previously. We do not have the kinds of statistics that would tell us how many were Manitoba women and how many were Saskatchewan women, because there was a good percentage of service provided in Flin Flon for Saskatchewan residents. We do know that they are now receiving services in Regina and Prince Albert.
Mr. Martindale: Would not your department have billed the Province of Saskatchewan for residents of Saskatchewan using the shelter in Flin Flon?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, the arrangement with Flin Flon was that the Flin Flon child care billed directly the Saskatchewan government.
Mr. Martindale: So could you not have subtracted the number of Saskatchewan clients from the total to come up with the number of Manitoba clients?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, we will go back and get that information and provide it.
Mr. Martindale: We have heard from employees or staff of women's shelters that gambling intensifies abuse, and that would certainly seem to be logical. I am wondering if the minister can tell us if women's shelters across Manitoba are keeping track during their admissions procedure of women who are seeking shelter either partly or wholly because of abuse which they believe is partly or wholly because of gambling addiction by a spouse.
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, it is my understanding that not all shelters are gathering that kind of information. I guess what happens very often with addictive behaviours, there are many cross-addictions, so gambling might be one addiction that is also related to alcohol addiction and possibly drug addiction or other things, so very often there just is not one cause. There are often circumstances that do precipitate abuse and it is often not just one reason.
I do want to indicate that we have been working--the Association of Women's Shelters and the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba have been working together on a cross-training process so there is an understanding of those that are working in women's shelters of what the issues around gambling addiction and other addictive behaviour pose to treatment and support for women. So we are proactively working with women's shelters and with the Addictions Foundation to ensure that there is the training available to attempt to meet the needs of the women that do need protection and shelter.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable minister.
Mr. Martindale: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson, I would love to be the minister.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: My apology.
Mr. Martindale: Well, I am also a minister.
I did not ask any questions about Vital Statistics. I was going to say that I gave up my licence to officiate marriages and I have regretted it, but someday I will get my licence again and go back to performing weddings once again, because politics is not forever; there is life after politics.
An Honourable Member: Oh, oh, swan song.
An Honourable Member: Yes, it is a retirement speech.
Mr. Martindale: Well, I was thinking, you know, in the long term, 10, 15, 20 years.
I received a complaint from an individual who stayed at a women's shelter. I am not going to name the shelter because it was only one complaint, I know the shelter and I am sure they are trying to do a good job. But the complaint was that this individual, while she was there, received no counselling, that she was not allowed to make phone calls and that she could not leave. If that is true, it is quite distressing. I guess the reason I am not naming the shelter is that I find it really hard to believe that could be true.
I would like to ask the minister, do all shelters provide counselling, allow clients to make phone calls and leave the shelter during the day?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, we do have standards in place and we do have service and funding agreements with all shelters and those certainly are not actions that would be consistent with what we have in place. As my honourable friend indicated, it was an isolated issue and if there is something on a broad basis that is going on, we certainly would be interested in wanting to try to resolve the issue or the problem.
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Mr. Martindale: I will follow up. I will phone the staffperson who is in charge of shelters in your department.
Back to Winnipeg Child and Family Services, I understand that a number of years ago a children's foundation was established, and I am wondering if the minister could tell us if that children's foundation still exists and, if so, how much money is in the foundation?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, the foundation does still exist but we are not sure what is in it. We would have to ask the agency and get back to the member.
Mr. Martindale: When the previous minister centralized the Winnipeg Child and Family Services agencies, I believe part of the rationale was to save money, particularly on administration. Now that there has been one Winnipeg Child and Family Services agency for a number of years, could the minister tell us if in fact there have been cost savings?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, they are working towards efficiencies as a result and I think there has been some central amalgamation of finances that has just recently occurred, so they are still working on it.
Mr. Martindale: So the minister does not know if they have saved any money or not.
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, we are spending more on Child and Family Services today and every year, more than we spent in the past, but the money that is being provided is going to children that have needs and need support and care. On the administrative side, I think, with the amalgamation that has just recently taken place, we should see some efficiencies.
Mr. Martindale: Well, I know that the budget is going up, but that is probably related to the number of people being served, but the question of saving money and amalgamation really has to do with the administrative costs. Surely the minister can track the administrative budgets and tell the committee whether or not there have been savings in administration because of the centralization.
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, there have been some savings on the administrative side, maybe not as much as we would have liked to have seen by this point in time, but we are continuing to work with the agency to ensure that direction continues.
Mr. Martindale: Could the minister provide comparative figures to me on the administrative costs of the old separate independent agencies and the new centralized Winnipeg Child and Family Services agency so that I can see whether in fact the original rationale has proved true or not?
Mrs. Mitchelson: We can certainly attempt to get that for my honourable friend.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 4. Child and Family Services (a) Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $406,700--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $61,100--pass.
4.(b) Child and Family Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,232,400--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $2,261,500--pass; (3) Maintenance of Children and External Agencies $97,974,600--pass; (4) The Family Support Innovations Fund $2,500,000--pass.
4.(c) Seven Oaks Centre (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,819,100--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $271,000--pass.
4.(d) Family Conciliation (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $724,600--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $165,100--pass.
4.(e) Family Dispute Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $298,700--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $89,800--pass; (3) External Agencies $5,216,900--pass.
Resolution 9.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $114,021,500 for Family Services, Child and Family Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March 1996--pass.
The last item to be considered for the Estimates of the Department of Family Services is Item 1.(a) Minister's Salary $22,800.
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, could I just ask a point of clarification. I do not know where in the Estimates book the Child and Youth Secretariat falls. Is that a separate appropriation? I am just wondering what the will of the committee is. Will that be passed before my salary, if that was to be passed under--[interjection]
Mr. Martindale: I had a chance to talk to the director of the Youth Secretariat, and he tells me that they spent seven hours on it in Health Estimates, so I do not think we need to ask any questions here, and if it is in the appropriation, then we have already passed it if the Minister's Salary is the only thing that is left.
Mrs. Mitchelson: I know it is not in my appropriation. It is a separate appropriation unto itself. It does not belong to any department. Do we want to just leave it and--[interjection] Okay.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: At this point, we request the minister's staff leave the table for the consideration of this item.
Item 1. Administration and Finance (a) Minister's Salary $22,800.
Mr. Martindale: Before I excuse myself, as I have to go to an event in the north end, I would just like to thank the minister for being so co-operative. We do not agree on a lot of issues, but certainly the minister's co-operative style has been the reason that we only took seven hours this year, and I just want to go on record as saying that I appreciate her co-operativeness. She has also, in the spirit of co-operation, offered to provide a lot of information to me after Estimates are over, and I look forward to receiving it.
Mrs. Mitchelson: I do want to thank my honourable friend the critic for the New Democratic Party too for his speedy passage, I think probably a record that cannot be matched for the number of hours that have been spent in Family Services Estimates. I think we all would agree that we have, setting of philosophies aside and maybe different approaches, we all have a genuine interest in the health and well-being of some of the most needy citizens in our Manitoba community. I thank him also for the co-operation and the ability to move through the Estimates in the fashion we have today.
Mr. Martindale: I will try to make this a final comment. I am not sure I want to be on record as having the shortest Estimates time for such a large and important department. There is a reason for it, and that is that we have new members in our caucus, such as the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford), and we had to divide up the Estimates time and give our new critics more time, and that meant that some departments that have got many, many hours in the past, including this department that has had up to 30 hours, were allocated less time within our caucus, and so out of courtesy to my colleagues I requested fewer hours this year.
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I just have a couple of questions of the minister, and you will have to excuse me for not necessarily being able to probably pose them in the best opportunity in terms of when the staff would have been here. If in fact the minister does not necessarily have the information that she feels would be beneficial for me to have, I would appreciate if she could get back with me with some better or more clarification and so forth.
The questions that I had actually come out at least in part from discussions that I have had with some people from the north end and some of the discussions I had with the Minister of Health. It is with respect to residential care homes and board and room homes, if you will. One of the things that we had talked fairly extensively about in health care Estimates is that one of the things that we need to start to doing is the whole concept of change and that deinstitutionalization and providing more services, for seniors in particular, in homes, and one of the things that I entered into a bit of a dialogue with the Minister of Health on was the idea of the board and room homes and residential care homes. I am interested in knowing and, again, excuse me if the questions have already been asked, does the Minister responsible for Family Services, where we provide monies to clients, in particular residential care homes and board and room, see, or what sort of plans does she have for these two areas?
* (1210)
Mrs. Mitchelson: The Department of Family Services' responsibility in the whole licensing of residential treatment is in fact just a licensing activity. There is no funding provided from the Department of Family Services for support. We license a residence and then the funding comes from Health or from other community organizations, whatever might be. I think I am accurate in saying that. I do not have my staff here at the table, but our role would only be licensing of residential facilities. We do not necessarily provide the funding to support activities that are ongoing in those facilities.
Mr. Lamoureux: Would the minister have a committee that would be reviewing licensing requirements and looking possibly at the whole idea of board and room? As I have indicated, in this particular area, I have had a couple individuals that have raised the spectre of not necessarily providing care in terms of prescriptions, but believe that they too have a future role in some form of licensing through the Department of Family Services. Does the minister actually have a review body that looks at this whole area?
Mrs. Mitchelson: I guess I might seek a little clarification, because I am wondering what types of individuals my honourable friend is wanting to discuss. Are they individuals that would be supported or funded through the Department of Family Services? Are we talking children--
Mr. Lamoureux: Some would be on social assistance--adults, seniors.
Mrs. Mitchelson: --adult seniors. They may be on social allowances, if I am understanding correctly.
You know, maybe I could make a suggestion or recommendation that we have the opportunity to sit down and discuss this and have some of my staff available at another time so we could talk about specific instances, so I could get some understanding of where my honourable friend is coming from. Maybe we could, I could provide the answers at that time.
Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, I appreciate the gesture. What I will do is maybe sometime over this summer get in touch with the minister's office and try to arrange a meeting with some of the people that have met with me to talk about what their requirements are, what the areas are which they would like to move in to. I do understand that the Department of Family Services plays a vital role in it. So I will take her up on that offer and prepare to pass the Minister's Salary.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 1.(a) Minister's Salary $22,800--pass.
Resolution 9.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $7,574,000 for Family Services, Administration and Finance for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.
This completes the Estimates of the Department of Family Services. The next set of Estimates that will be considered by this section of Committee of Supply are the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship.
Shall we briefly recess to allow the minister and the critics the opportunity to prepare for the commencement of the next set of Estimates?